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Crazy Science that Turns Out to be Fact

Installgentoo
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2/21/2014 8:08:55 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
What weird predictions of science have you known that turned out to be true? We studied some of Einsteins theory of relativity in high school and talked about how space and time could bend, yet it turns out this actually happens during eclipses! Crazy, no?
GarretKadeDupre
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2/21/2014 9:51:06 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Personally, heavier objects falling at generally the same speed as much lighter, smaller objects.
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themohawkninja
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2/21/2014 10:17:00 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 8:08:55 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
What weird predictions of science have you known that turned out to be true? We studied some of Einsteins theory of relativity in high school and talked about how space and time could bend, yet it turns out this actually happens during eclipses! Crazy, no?

Space and time are always bending so long as we are referring to an object with mass and/or motion.

If you want to talk about really weird effects, go look up quantum computing.
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Iredia
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2/21/2014 10:49:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 8:08:55 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
What weird predictions of science have you known that turned out to be true? We studied some of Einsteins theory of relativity in high school and talked about how space and time could bend, yet it turns out this actually happens during eclipses! Crazy, no?

No. Space and time bending is absurd. How do you get from eclipses to space bending which doesn't begin to make sense. It's like someone telling me there's proof that all points on a square are equidistant from its center (ie a square circle).
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Iredia
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2/21/2014 10:58:12 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Human brain causing consciousness. This is so weird my way of tackling it is to say it both causes it and doesn't cause it. Because it's clear to me that even though affecting the brain affects consciousness, it doesn't make the brain any more conscious than it is; it is a dull, dead piece of mush that knows and sees nothing.
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RoyLatham
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2/21/2014 11:54:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 10:49:07 AM, Iredia wrote:
At 2/21/2014 8:08:55 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
What weird predictions of science have you known that turned out to be true? We studied some of Einsteins theory of relativity in high school and talked about how space and time could bend, yet it turns out this actually happens during eclipses! Crazy, no?

No. Space and time bending is absurd. How do you get from eclipses to space bending which doesn't begin to make sense. It's like someone telling me there's proof that all points on a square are equidistant from its center (ie a square circle).

Einstein's theory of General Relativity predicted that space bends under the influence of gravity. The test is to take a picture of the stars to see how they appear relative to each other, then take a picture during an eclipse. During an eclipse the light of stars passing bear the sun ought to appear to change position because the gravity of the sun is bending the space near the sun. Testing the theory required photographing an eclipse with a high resolution camera, and that was not easy to arrange around 1920. Finally, photographs were obtained in the early twenties and Einstein was proved correct.

Now with deep space telescopes the phenomena of gravitational lensing is readily observed. Space is in fact bent.

The special theory of relativity predicts that time depends upon the frame of reference of the observer. Astronauts spending six months on the space station age 0.007 seconds less than grounded earthlings. http://spaceflight.nasa.gov...

Cosmic rays generate muons high in the atmosphere. The muons quickly decay, but they are traveling so fast that thanks to time dilation they reach the ground before they decay.
RoyLatham
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2/21/2014 12:00:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 8:08:55 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
What weird predictions of science have you known that turned out to be true? We studied some of Einsteins theory of relativity in high school and talked about how space and time could bend, yet it turns out this actually happens during eclipses! Crazy, no?

All the heavy elements in the solar system, include the iron and silicates that make up the earth, come from distant supernovae.

The rings of Saturn are made of ice.

Most of the matter and energy in the universe is dark, meaning that the only way to detect it is by the gravitational force it exerts. It is otherwise undetectable.
Iredia
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2/21/2014 4:56:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 11:54:17 AM, RoyLatham wrote:

Einstein's theory of General Relativity predicted that space bends under the influence of gravity. The test is to take a picture of the stars to see how they appear relative to each other, then take a picture during an eclipse. During an eclipse the light of stars passing bear the sun ought to appear to change position because the gravity of the sun is bending the space near the sun. Testing the theory required photographing an eclipse with a high resolution camera, and that was not easy to arrange around 1920. Finally, photographs were obtained in the early twenties and Einstein was proved correct.

No, it can't. Any less than a person would bring evidence that time dies. Once you say space bends, by definition you no longer speak of space (or nothing); you speak of matter (something) which is very well-known to bend. I'm sorry Einstein and you are wrong but I am sure of my position because it concurs with axioms on space.


Now with deep space telescopes the phenomena of gravitational lensing is readily observed. Space is in fact bent.

No. Gravitational lensing being an effect of gravity on light is reasonable. Stating it is evidence that space bends is false. Again I repeat, space is nothing and nothing bends. If this drags out I will repeat this point.


The special theory of relativity predicts that time depends upon the frame of reference of the observer. Astronauts spending six months on the space station age 0.007 seconds less than grounded earthlings. http://spaceflight.nasa.gov...

Okay.


Cosmic rays generate muons high in the atmosphere. The muons quickly decay, but they are traveling so fast that thanks to time dilation they reach the ground before they decay.

This one is in doubt. I will have to process that, but it can't even show space bends. For you to say space bends it would have to be a material, no matter how light; quarks and electrons are material, so they can be, at least in principle bent or expand. This doesn't apply to the immaterial (or nothing) which can't bend.
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KaileyFox
Posts: 156
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2/21/2014 5:06:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 8:08:55 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
What weird predictions of science have you known that turned out to be true? We studied some of Einsteins theory of relativity in high school and talked about how space and time could bend, yet it turns out this actually happens during eclipses! Crazy, no?

Whoaaaa, this is like that youtube video I just watched yesterday.

If you haven't seen it, you should go watch it. I think you'll enjoy it :)
PotBelliedGeek
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2/21/2014 9:19:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 8:08:55 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
What weird predictions of science have you known that turned out to be true? We studied some of Einsteins theory of relativity in high school and talked about how space and time could bend, yet it turns out this actually happens during eclipses! Crazy, no?

Evolution, actually. I swear I am not trying to start a discussion on the topic, I realize that it will get nowhere. I am just pointing out that I thought it insanely absurd when I first heard of it, but after actually studying the evidence, it is what it is.
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PotBelliedGeek
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2/21/2014 9:24:37 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 4:56:12 PM, Iredia wrote:
At 2/21/2014 11:54:17 AM, RoyLatham wrote:

Einstein's theory of General Relativity predicted that space bends under the influence of gravity. The test is to take a picture of the stars to see how they appear relative to each other, then take a picture during an eclipse. During an eclipse the light of stars passing bear the sun ought to appear to change position because the gravity of the sun is bending the space near the sun. Testing the theory required photographing an eclipse with a high resolution camera, and that was not easy to arrange around 1920. Finally, photographs were obtained in the early twenties and Einstein was proved correct.

No, it can't. Any less than a person would bring evidence that time dies. Once you say space bends, by definition you no longer speak of space (or nothing); you speak of matter (something) which is very well-known to bend. I'm sorry Einstein and you are wrong but I am sure of my position because it concurs with axioms on space.


Now with deep space telescopes the phenomena of gravitational lensing is readily observed. Space is in fact bent.

No. Gravitational lensing being an effect of gravity on light is reasonable. Stating it is evidence that space bends is false. Again I repeat, space is nothing and nothing bends. If this drags out I will repeat this point.


The special theory of relativity predicts that time depends upon the frame of reference of the observer. Astronauts spending six months on the space station age 0.007 seconds less than grounded earthlings. http://spaceflight.nasa.gov...

Okay.


Cosmic rays generate muons high in the atmosphere. The muons quickly decay, but they are traveling so fast that thanks to time dilation they reach the ground before they decay.

This one is in doubt. I will have to process that, but it can't even show space bends. For you to say space bends it would have to be a material, no matter how light; quarks and electrons are material, so they can be, at least in principle bent or expand. This doesn't apply to the immaterial (or nothing) which can't bend.

Wow. I just lost any and all respect I used to have for you after reading this post. Space-time doesn't bend?

Just because you can't wrap your head around something doesn't mean it can't happen. The reason people become career scientists is because this level of knowledge is in essence beyond the scope of the average person. It takes complete devotion to the study of science to fully grasp.
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SNP1
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2/21/2014 9:36:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 9:19:51 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 2/21/2014 8:08:55 AM, Installgentoo wrote:
What weird predictions of science have you known that turned out to be true? We studied some of Einsteins theory of relativity in high school and talked about how space and time could bend, yet it turns out this actually happens during eclipses! Crazy, no?

Evolution, actually. I swear I am not trying to start a discussion on the topic, I realize that it will get nowhere. I am just pointing out that I thought it insanely absurd when I first heard of it, but after actually studying the evidence, it is what it is.

I actually have to agree with that one. I was raised very religious and believed in the creation for the longest time. Now, evolution amazes me, and with everything there is backing it up is amazing.
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RoyLatham
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2/21/2014 10:27:41 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 4:56:12 PM, Iredia wrote:
No, it can't. Any less than a person would bring evidence that time dies. Once you say space bends, by definition you no longer speak of space (or nothing); you speak of matter (something) which is very well-known to bend. I'm sorry Einstein and you are wrong but I am sure of my position because it concurs with axioms on space.

You have axioms on mathematical space, which is fine. However, what happens in physical space can only be determined by observation. It bends.

Now with deep space telescopes the phenomena of gravitational lensing is readily observed. Space is in fact bent.

No. Gravitational lensing being an effect of gravity on light is reasonable. Stating it is evidence that space bends is false. Again I repeat, space is nothing and nothing bends. If this drags out I will repeat this point.

You can keep repeating the point, but it's too late to revoke all of modern physics. Gravity is what curves space. It is completely non-intuitive, but there is a lot of modern physics that defies intuition. We should accept that theory agrees with what is observed, whereas our intuition does not agree with observation.

I found a video that explains it with an old-fashioned charm.

GarretKadeDupre
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2/21/2014 11:01:32 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 10:27:41 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 2/21/2014 4:56:12 PM, Iredia wrote:
No, it can't. Any less than a person would bring evidence that time dies. Once you say space bends, by definition you no longer speak of space (or nothing); you speak of matter (something) which is very well-known to bend. I'm sorry Einstein and you are wrong but I am sure of my position because it concurs with axioms on space.

You have axioms on mathematical space, which is fine. However, what happens in physical space can only be determined by observation. It bends.

I agree with Iredia. Even if space were to bend (an illogical hypothetical), you would not be able to observe it bending, because by any and all definitions of space that I'm aware, space is nothing, and the claim that "space bends and we've observed it" amounts to "nothingness bends and we've observed it." It's not just counter-intuitive, it defies logic.
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PotBelliedGeek
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2/21/2014 11:07:27 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 11:01:32 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/21/2014 10:27:41 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 2/21/2014 4:56:12 PM, Iredia wrote:
No, it can't. Any less than a person would bring evidence that time dies. Once you say space bends, by definition you no longer speak of space (or nothing); you speak of matter (something) which is very well-known to bend. I'm sorry Einstein and you are wrong but I am sure of my position because it concurs with axioms on space.

You have axioms on mathematical space, which is fine. However, what happens in physical space can only be determined by observation. It bends.

I agree with Iredia. Even if space were to bend (an illogical hypothetical), you would not be able to observe it bending, because by any and all definitions of space that I'm aware, space is nothing, and the claim that "space bends and we've observed it" amounts to "nothingness bends and we've observed it." It's not just counter-intuitive, it defies logic.

Believe it or not, we can indeed observe and measure nothingness. I did it just today. It is an advanced concept in physics, and literally would take books (and years of studying said books) to explain it, so I cannot and will not do so here. But yes, we can do it.
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GarretKadeDupre
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2/21/2014 11:14:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 11:07:27 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 2/21/2014 11:01:32 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/21/2014 10:27:41 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 2/21/2014 4:56:12 PM, Iredia wrote:
No, it can't. Any less than a person would bring evidence that time dies. Once you say space bends, by definition you no longer speak of space (or nothing); you speak of matter (something) which is very well-known to bend. I'm sorry Einstein and you are wrong but I am sure of my position because it concurs with axioms on space.

You have axioms on mathematical space, which is fine. However, what happens in physical space can only be determined by observation. It bends.

I agree with Iredia. Even if space were to bend (an illogical hypothetical), you would not be able to observe it bending, because by any and all definitions of space that I'm aware, space is nothing, and the claim that "space bends and we've observed it" amounts to "nothingness bends and we've observed it." It's not just counter-intuitive, it defies logic.

Believe it or not, we can indeed observe and measure nothingness. I did it just today. It is an advanced concept in physics, and literally would take books (and years of studying said books) to explain it, so I cannot and will not do so here. But yes, we can do it.

That's not helpful at all.

My belief is that space doesn't actually bend, but it's parsimonious to assume it does for the sake of calculations.
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RoyLatham
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2/21/2014 11:30:24 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Since the bending of space is caused by gravity and objects move, the effects of the change are observed.

You guys should just write up your refutation of Einstein and publish it is Physics Review. Get back to me after Einsteins Nobel Prize for General Relativity is revoked and we'll talk more.
GarretKadeDupre
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2/21/2014 11:33:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 11:30:24 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Since the bending of space is caused by gravity and objects move, the effects of the change are observed.

I agree gravity causes objects to move, but see no justification for the claim that this is due to a bending of space.

Why can't gravity move objects without bending space? What's the difference?
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PotBelliedGeek
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2/21/2014 11:46:05 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 11:33:31 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/21/2014 11:30:24 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Since the bending of space is caused by gravity and objects move, the effects of the change are observed.

I agree gravity causes objects to move, but see no justification for the claim that this is due to a bending of space.

Why can't gravity move objects without bending space? What's the difference?

What is gravity?
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GarretKadeDupre
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2/22/2014 12:09:33 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 11:46:05 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 2/21/2014 11:33:31 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/21/2014 11:30:24 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Since the bending of space is caused by gravity and objects move, the effects of the change are observed.

I agree gravity causes objects to move, but see no justification for the claim that this is due to a bending of space.

Why can't gravity move objects without bending space? What's the difference?

What is gravity?

As far as I'm aware, nobody knows, and saying gravity is the bending of space is just a way of sounding smart.
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PotBelliedGeek
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2/22/2014 12:20:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/22/2014 12:09:33 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/21/2014 11:46:05 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 2/21/2014 11:33:31 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/21/2014 11:30:24 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Since the bending of space is caused by gravity and objects move, the effects of the change are observed.

I agree gravity causes objects to move, but see no justification for the claim that this is due to a bending of space.

Why can't gravity move objects without bending space? What's the difference?

What is gravity?

As far as I'm aware, nobody knows, and saying gravity is the bending of space is just a way of sounding smart.

Well then. Do you remember when we first met, Garret, what I said to you? I'll say It to you again. You are not a scientist. The reason you don't understand it and don't see the connections is because you are not educated in the field. These things take years of study to grasp, years that you did not put into it. You cannot expect to understand these things without building up to them. It's a lot like mathematics. Had I told you when you were in sixth grade that we do calculations using numbers that do not and cannot exist, you would have called me a doofus and walked away. Despite that, you mastered the concept of nonexistent numbers by the time you graduated highschool. Science is no different.

Not knowing, not having the training and education to understand something, does not give you any grounds whatsoever upon which to base denial.
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Sidewalker
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2/22/2014 6:27:07 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/22/2014 12:20:32 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 2/22/2014 12:09:33 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/21/2014 11:46:05 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 2/21/2014 11:33:31 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/21/2014 11:30:24 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Since the bending of space is caused by gravity and objects move, the effects of the change are observed.

I agree gravity causes objects to move, but see no justification for the claim that this is due to a bending of space.

Why can't gravity move objects without bending space? What's the difference?

What is gravity?

As far as I'm aware, nobody knows, and saying gravity is the bending of space is just a way of sounding smart.

Well then. Do you remember when we first met, Garret, what I said to you? I'll say It to you again. You are not a scientist. The reason you don't understand it and don't see the connections is because you are not educated in the field. These things take years of study to grasp, years that you did not put into it. You cannot expect to understand these things without building up to them. It's a lot like mathematics. Had I told you when you were in sixth grade that we do calculations using numbers that do not and cannot exist, you would have called me a doofus and walked away. Despite that, you mastered the concept of nonexistent numbers by the time you graduated highschool. Science is no different.

Not knowing, not having the training and education to understand something, does not give you any grounds whatsoever upon which to base denial.

Not knowing, not having the training and education to understand something, does not give you any grounds whatsoever upon which to base acceptance either.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Sidewalker
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2/22/2014 6:36:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/22/2014 12:09:33 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/21/2014 11:46:05 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 2/21/2014 11:33:31 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/21/2014 11:30:24 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Since the bending of space is caused by gravity and objects move, the effects of the change are observed.

I agree gravity causes objects to move, but see no justification for the claim that this is due to a bending of space.

Why can't gravity move objects without bending space? What's the difference?

What is gravity?

As far as I'm aware, nobody knows, and saying gravity is the bending of space is just a way of sounding smart.

Perhaps this will help clear up the confusion here.

The problem is that we aren"t talking about reality per se, we are talking about the symbolic representation of reality with mathematical models and then trying to conceptualize the model. Obviously, space isn't composed of numbers and formulas; it is only symbolically represented with numbers and formulas in a mathematical model that is useful when used to describe it. This is why engineers are fond of saying, "All models are wrong, but some are useful".

It's accurate to say "space is nothing so it can"t be curved", but it's just as accurate to say that "space is nothing, so it can"t be straight". The fact is, there is a useful mathematical model that represents space accurately and in conceptualizing that model, we can think of space as being straight, that model is wrong, but it"s useful.

But there is another useful mathematical model that represents space accurately and in conceptualizing that model, we can think of space as being curved, it's also wrong, but it's useful. In this instance, the first model (developed by Euclid) matched all the measurements accurately for some 2,300 years, but eventually we came across some measurements that didn"t fit that model, and a second model was developed that depicted everything in the first model just as accurately, as well as those new measurements, so it's even more useful than the first.

When we talk about whether or not space is curved, we aren"t really talking about space, we are talking about geometry,. It's really about whether the geometry we use to conceptually represent space is Euclid's, in which the representation of space can't be curved, or a non-Euclidean geometry, such as the one Einstein used for the second model, in which space can be represented as curved.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
PotBelliedGeek
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2/22/2014 7:35:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/22/2014 6:27:07 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 2/22/2014 12:20:32 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 2/22/2014 12:09:33 AM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/21/2014 11:46:05 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:
At 2/21/2014 11:33:31 PM, GarretKadeDupre wrote:
At 2/21/2014 11:30:24 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
Since the bending of space is caused by gravity and objects move, the effects of the change are observed.

I agree gravity causes objects to move, but see no justification for the claim that this is due to a bending of space.

Why can't gravity move objects without bending space? What's the difference?

What is gravity?

As far as I'm aware, nobody knows, and saying gravity is the bending of space is just a way of sounding smart.

Well then. Do you remember when we first met, Garret, what I said to you? I'll say It to you again. You are not a scientist. The reason you don't understand it and don't see the connections is because you are not educated in the field. These things take years of study to grasp, years that you did not put into it. You cannot expect to understand these things without building up to them. It's a lot like mathematics. Had I told you when you were in sixth grade that we do calculations using numbers that do not and cannot exist, you would have called me a doofus and walked away. Despite that, you mastered the concept of nonexistent numbers by the time you graduated highschool. Science is no different.

Not knowing, not having the training and education to understand something, does not give you any grounds whatsoever upon which to base denial.

Not knowing, not having the training and education to understand something, does not give you any grounds whatsoever upon which to base acceptance either.

No, but consensus among experts in the field does.
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Iredia
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2/22/2014 9:49:31 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/21/2014 9:24:37 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:


Wow. I just lost any and all respect I used to have for you after reading this post. Space-time doesn't bend?

I don't live on your respect. And I find it a pity uou actually question this. How can nothing be meaningfully said to truly bend ?


Just because you can't wrap your head around something doesn't mean it can't happen. The reason people become career scientists is because this level of knowledge is in essence beyond the scope of the average person. It takes complete devotion to the study of science to fully grasp.

Nonsense. There's nothing special in a scientist's brain. If I apply myself to their rigors I would be in that lot. I find it profoundly silly you appeal to their authority; while this is allowed to some level, one must be discerning lest they be taken for fools (as spontaenous generation believers were). Furthermore, you had best state why space-time bends. I have proposed that it is because scientists have redefined spacetime or 'Minkowski space' as a material that bends. A definition I don't accept.
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PotBelliedGeek
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2/22/2014 9:53:16 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/22/2014 9:49:31 AM, Iredia wrote:
At 2/21/2014 9:24:37 PM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:


Wow. I just lost any and all respect I used to have for you after reading this post. Space-time doesn't bend?

I don't live on your respect. And I find it a pity uou actually question this. How can nothing be meaningfully said to truly bend ?


Just because you can't wrap your head around something doesn't mean it can't happen. The reason people become career scientists is because this level of knowledge is in essence beyond the scope of the average person. It takes complete devotion to the study of science to fully grasp.

Nonsense. There's nothing special in a scientist's brain. If I apply myself to their rigors I would be in that lot. I find it profoundly silly you appeal to their authority; while this is allowed to some level, one must be discerning lest they be taken for fools (as spontaenous generation believers were). Furthermore, you had best state why space-time bends. I have proposed that it is because scientists have redefined spacetime or 'Minkowski space' as a material that bends. A definition I don't accept.

The whole point is that you didn't apply yourself to "their rigors" and hence are not capable of navigating the feild.
What I am telling you is that while you sure as heck can believe whatever you want, in the world of logic and evidence you have absolutely no right to tell scientists that they are wrong.
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RoyLatham
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2/22/2014 10:03:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The way to learn science is to take a course, read a book, or watch an instructional video. It's not efficient to demand that someone pound it into you as you fight it every inch of the way. There are plenty of unanswered questions and unexplained observations in real science, and that leaves lots of room for legitimate debate. But really, for the basics ... read a book.
Iredia
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2/22/2014 10:39:49 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is a pity because it further shows consensus science befooled many on this. And minus equations, experiments and eminent scientists all space-time bending boils down to is a redefinition of what space means. Space means nothing which obviously can't bend. When you say spacetime bends you ipso facto presume space is material (intently or unwittingly).

At 2/21/2014 10:27:41 PM, RoyLatham wrote:

You have axioms on mathematical space, which is fine. However, what happens in physical space can only be determined by observation. It bends.

Can nothing bend ? I have already said space in nothing, it isn't physical anymore than hate is. That said, space is part of the physical world since all physical things exist in it; but it (space) isn't physical.

As you can see Roy, I can't even agree that space can be seen to bend. After all, will you believe events preceding themselves can be observed ?


You can keep repeating the point, but it's too late to revoke all of modern physics. Gravity is what curves space. It is completely non-intuitive, but there is a lot of modern physics that defies intuition. We should accept that theory agrees with what is observed, whereas our intuition does not agree with observation.

Physics itself rests on certain axioms (like induction, a belief in the scientific method etc); where physicists encounter conflicting data, these axioms must remain untouched. The understanding of space as nothing is one such axiom. It is silly to change it, then say the intuition of laypeople doesn't work.

In addition, gravity doesn't curve space. The reasons are simple.

1) Space is nothing and nothing doesn't curve, only things (blood cells, electrons, doors etc). For some reason, you don't deny space is nothing or that it can't curve, yet you presume space (or spacetime) curves and expands.

2) I hear it is actually the curvature of spacetime that causes gravity. Not otherwise.

3) Gravity doesn't curve anything. In fact, it does nothing. Gravity is a word Newton coined to 'explain' what makes objects fall to ground or keep the Sun's planets in orbit. His equations where brilliant and explained quite a lot. But gravity, or this 'force of attraction' is at best a label. In truth, we still don't know what makes object fall, or puts planets in orbit: we just kniw they do, and think gravity explains that.


I found a video that explains it with an old-fashioned charm.




It seems like a video Brian Greene used in a TED talk. Even the visualization is false. When I visualize space, I visualize a dark black void, akin to what you see you close your eyes in the dark. When you visualize it as a fabric or depict it as a matrix of intersecting lines you misconstrue the nature of space, especially when you affirm space is actually a fabric. Made up of what ?

If I may ask, if spacetime is a thing that truly curves, is it made up of atoms as well ?

PS: Void is space entirely empty of matter (virtual particles, atoms, molecules etc). Tho' space is nothing, it now contains matter of all kinds.
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Iredia
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2/22/2014 10:56:04 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 2/22/2014 9:53:16 AM, PotBelliedGeek wrote:

The whole point is that you didn't apply yourself to "their rigors" and hence are not capable of navigating the feild.

And I don't need to to argue certain points.

What I am telling you is that while you sure as heck can believe whatever you want, in the world of logic and evidence you have absolutely no right to tell scientists that they are wrong.

Patently false. Because logic and evidence and the intelligence necessary to evaluate them is NOT the sole excluse of scientists. Every man has the capability to this; that is how science and its fields grew in the first place.

Your sort if thinking is very dangerous; because while it is good to defer to the experts, as scientists are; it is certainly unwise to stop thinking for yourself; because the truth is experts get it wrong. In fact, they are experts because they got it wrong in many ways before getting it right.
When I was thinking like you, I simply believed gravity, time-travel, relativity, energy as I was told, even when my thoughts on it differed from what I was taught, or saw most scientists say. It required considering opponents cast as crackpot or shunned, reading on philosophy and history articles etc that made me break out of that mindset.

One must not just read and let scientists do their thinking for them; reason demand they think for themselves. Now if there's a reason why you think space expand and curves we can discuss that, you don't need to be an astrophysicist to do so.
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Skepticalone
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2/22/2014 11:22:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Here is a cool one I think is mind blowing! For clocks in a stronger gravity fields, time passes more slowly than those in a weaker gravity field. In other words, a clock on a mountain top will 'tic' faster than a clock at sea level!
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