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Does the 3rd dimension exist?

Spock26
Posts: 9
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3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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3/6/2014 10:46:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?

As soon as you touch a two dimensional rendering of a three dimensional surface you know it is two dimensional. In reality, would the depth we can perceive and verify by distance confirm three dimensions? Maybe I am being too simplistic, but this is my opinion as I understand your question.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

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What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
jewelessien
Posts: 155
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3/7/2014 3:40:20 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?

As a graphic artist, I can tell you that we don't accurately portray 3D images on a 2D surface. We simply play on the way the eye/brain see things.
For example, we can't see depth properly. The walls of a corridor, for instance, are parallel, but we see them as lines sloping towards each other (to meet at a point on the horizon). We become so used to it that when an artist draws two lines sloping towards the horizon - viol"! We see depth.
To further illustrate this, blind/purblind people who've gained sight (through surgery, for instance) find it difficult to see depth in artwork (and in reality as well). They're so used to the real perception of a corridor as parallel lines (from touching the walls) that the illusory sight of a corridor as lines sloping to a horizon freaks them out.
And the definitive proof of 3D's reality is that 3D figures don't disappear when they are rotated parallel to the visual field, unlike images on paper.
Everything is up for questioning. If it won't defend itself, then how do we know it can?
nummi
Posts: 294
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3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.
jewelessien
Posts: 155
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3/7/2014 4:34:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.

Tell that to practically all of physics and a large portion of math.
Everything is up for questioning. If it won't defend itself, then how do we know it can?
slo1
Posts: 4,337
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3/7/2014 9:00:50 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?

I can jump, take a step forward, and take a step sideways without hitting some type of barrier. Try to get a stick man on a piece of paper to do that.
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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3/7/2014 10:13:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.

The dimensions certainly do exist. Draw a stick figure, draw a square around him. On that 2D surface, can the stick figure escape? No, it is 2D, only height and length exist. If I put a 2D square around you then you could escape, in the 3rd spatial dimension (3D) we have depth as well. The 4th spatial dimension (4D) would be able to escape a cube as they would have another direction they could move.
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nummi
Posts: 294
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3/7/2014 2:11:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/7/2014 4:34:26 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.
Tell that to practically all of physics and a large portion of math.
These are merely our interpretations of our world - maths, drawings, etc. What I said still applies.
Our world is made of matter/energy that affects itself. Process of matter/energy - we are part of this, as is everything we perceive with our senses. There are no dimensions other than those made up in our minds.
nummi
Posts: 294
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3/7/2014 2:23:49 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/7/2014 10:13:29 AM, SNP1 wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.
The dimensions certainly do exist. Draw a stick figure, draw a square around him. On that 2D surface, can the stick figure escape?
This is simple fallacy.
What is the stick figure drawn on? Paper? Let's say it's paper. What is paper made of? Molecules, atoms - particles - matter/energy. What is that figure made of? Some other molecules in a certain direction and succession. So again matter/energy. Tadaa! No such things as dimensions!

No, it is 2D, only height and length exist. If I put a 2D square around you then you could escape, in the 3rd spatial dimension (3D) we have depth as well. The 4th spatial dimension (4D) would be able to escape a cube as they would have another direction they could move.
We can as well make up robed or armored figures that are or are not bearded, that live in puffy clouds and when they pee it rains, and when they fart it's thunder time. Oh... wait... too late, they've already been made up countless times, for thousands of years. People even have versions of their own of the same. Imagining things is so simple, but that alone does not make it true.
You imagine things, even dimensions. But what is responsible for your coming to such fantasies and notions? The mind. What is the mind? The process between that which your brain is made of. What is your brain made of? Tissues, cells, molecules, atoms, particles - matter/energy - which is in constant "process" with itself.

There are no dimensions. Not in actual reality. They can be conceived inside the process, thanks to the process of matter/energy, but they are not what make up our world, they are nowhere in the "physical/real" structure of our world.
jewelessien
Posts: 155
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3/8/2014 2:11:17 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/7/2014 2:11:34 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:34:26 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.
Tell that to practically all of physics and a large portion of math.
These are merely our interpretations of our world - maths, drawings, etc. What I said still applies.
Our world is made of matter/energy that affects itself. Process of matter/energy - we are part of this, as is everything we perceive with our senses. There are no dimensions other than those made up in our minds.

I notice you didn't reply to my post detailing why artists' interpretations don't stand up as an argument against the existence of dimensions.
And I think you are creating too narrow a definition for existence. To you, things that exist must be tangible. No, they aren't always. Take numbers, for instance - numbers do not "exist" the way matter and energy physically exist, and one could argue that they are human-engineered concepts with which we interpret the world, but try arguing that that means that numbers aren't "real".
Similarly, no-one has ever asserted that dimensions are tangible things that we can grab hold of. They are frames of reference - left/right, up/down, forward/backward, up-toward/down-toward (I think that's what the directions in the fourth spatial dimension are called?). Dimensions, planes, axes - you will never "find" one floating in front of you, just like you will never find a number or even a thought floating in front of you, but it's absurd to say that that doesn't make them "real".
Everything is up for questioning. If it won't defend itself, then how do we know it can?
srehtiw
Posts: 491
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3/8/2014 6:04:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/7/2014 2:11:34 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:34:26 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.
Tell that to practically all of physics and a large portion of math.
These are merely our interpretations of our world - maths, drawings, etc. What I said still applies.
Our world is made of matter/energy that affects itself. Process of matter/energy - we are part of this, as is everything we perceive with our senses. There are no dimensions other than those made up in our minds.

Before I reply to this I have to ask just to be sure. Do you know what a dimension is?
nummi
Posts: 294
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3/8/2014 10:42:29 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/8/2014 6:04:34 AM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/7/2014 2:11:34 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:34:26 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.
Tell that to practically all of physics and a large portion of math.
These are merely our interpretations of our world - maths, drawings, etc. What I said still applies.
Our world is made of matter/energy that affects itself. Process of matter/energy - we are part of this, as is everything we perceive with our senses. There are no dimensions other than those made up in our minds.

Before I reply to this I have to ask just to be sure. Do you know what a dimension is?
A concept/notion/idea. Relevant only to the mind.
jewelessien
Posts: 155
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3/8/2014 10:59:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/8/2014 10:42:29 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 6:04:34 AM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/7/2014 2:11:34 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:34:26 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.
Tell that to practically all of physics and a large portion of math.
These are merely our interpretations of our world - maths, drawings, etc. What I said still applies.
Our world is made of matter/energy that affects itself. Process of matter/energy - we are part of this, as is everything we perceive with our senses. There are no dimensions other than those made up in our minds.

Before I reply to this I have to ask just to be sure. Do you know what a dimension is?
A concept/notion/idea. Relevant only to the mind.

No, now I'm actually concerned. Please define dimensions as you understand them, so we'll be clear on what exactly we're arguing about.
Everything is up for questioning. If it won't defend itself, then how do we know it can?
nummi
Posts: 294
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3/8/2014 11:22:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/8/2014 2:11:17 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/7/2014 2:11:34 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:34:26 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.
Tell that to practically all of physics and a large portion of math.
These are merely our interpretations of our world - maths, drawings, etc. What I said still applies.
Our world is made of matter/energy that affects itself. Process of matter/energy - we are part of this, as is everything we perceive with our senses. There are no dimensions other than those made up in our minds.

I notice you didn't reply to my post detailing why artists' interpretations don't stand up as an argument against the existence of dimensions.
Because you didn't ask this of me. Neither do I care for something as specific. I'm more toward the general underlying cause.
I tend to go for answers that answer everything, as best I can.

And I think you are creating too narrow a definition for existence.
Too simple to be true?
Perhaps you are instead underthinking it? How many forms does matter/energy have? How many qualities does it have? I referred to all building material of existence as "matter/energy". It's hardly narrow.

To you, things that exist must be tangible. No, they aren't always.
Define tangible...
How about matter/energy that is different from that of our "universe"? That'd be pretty intangible to me.

Take numbers, for instance - numbers do not "exist" the way matter and energy physically exist, and one could argue that they are human-engineered concepts with which we interpret the world, but try arguing that that means that numbers aren't "real".
Yea, numbers are created through the process of the matter our brain is made of. They are the process. If the process ends, so do the numbers. But there is always some thing that enables such existence. Such existence cannot be only on its own. Only on its own would mean having no substance behind it, which would mean there's nothing there, which means nonexistence, which by definition does not and can not be.
Cause and effect. No cause, no effect. Effect, so there must be a cause.
Matter has to have a reaction, or a reaction with other matter, so an effect, a change, would occur.

Similarly, no-one has ever asserted that dimensions are tangible things that we can grab hold of. They are frames of reference - left/right, up/down, forward/backward, up-toward/down-toward (I think that's what the directions in the fourth spatial dimension are called?). Dimensions, planes, axes - you will never "find" one floating in front of you, just like you will never find a number or even a thought floating in front of you, but it's absurd to say that that doesn't make them "real".
They aren't real because they have no "substance" behind them. The process itself is not substance. Most people I see talking about these sort of things tend to regard them as something that exist all on their own.
Why I say what I say is because I see in movies and such, and people talk about things like "time travel" and "dimensions". As if you can "go back"... or as if there's some "higher level of existence". There is no "back". What is "higher"? There is only the present, nothing else exists this wise. If there is some other existence then its simply some other existence.
The process of matter is constant, it cannot stop and it only has one "direction", which actually isn't a direction, it's just "processing". All the "matter/energy" does is process, only this.
nummi
Posts: 294
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3/8/2014 11:25:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/8/2014 10:59:34 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/8/2014 10:42:29 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 6:04:34 AM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/7/2014 2:11:34 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:34:26 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.
Tell that to practically all of physics and a large portion of math.
These are merely our interpretations of our world - maths, drawings, etc. What I said still applies.
Our world is made of matter/energy that affects itself. Process of matter/energy - we are part of this, as is everything we perceive with our senses. There are no dimensions other than those made up in our minds.

Before I reply to this I have to ask just to be sure. Do you know what a dimension is?
A concept/notion/idea. Relevant only to the mind.

No, now I'm actually concerned. Please define dimensions as you understand them, so we'll be clear on what exactly we're arguing about.
Already did define them...
You mean what are thoughts made of? They are the process of matter, to which existence the matter itself is necessary.
jewelessien
Posts: 155
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3/8/2014 12:05:16 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/8/2014 11:22:34 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 2:11:17 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/7/2014 2:11:34 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:34:26 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.
Tell that to practically all of physics and a large portion of math.
These are merely our interpretations of our world - maths, drawings, etc. What I said still applies.
Our world is made of matter/energy that affects itself. Process of matter/energy - we are part of this, as is everything we perceive with our senses. There are no dimensions other than those made up in our minds.

I notice you didn't reply to my post detailing why artists' interpretations don't stand up as an argument against the existence of dimensions.
Because you didn't ask this of me. Neither do I care for something as specific. I'm more toward the general underlying cause.
I tend to go for answers that answer everything, as best I can.

And I think you are creating too narrow a definition for existence.
Too simple to be true?
Perhaps you are instead underthinking it? How many forms does matter/energy have? How many qualities does it have? I referred to all building material of existence as "matter/energy". It's hardly narrow.

To you, things that exist must be tangible. No, they aren't always.
Define tangible...
How about matter/energy that is different from that of our "universe"? That'd be pretty intangible to me.

Take numbers, for instance - numbers do not "exist" the way matter and energy physically exist, and one could argue that they are human-engineered concepts with which we interpret the world, but try arguing that that means that numbers aren't "real".
Yea, numbers are created through the process of the matter our brain is made of. They are the process. If the process ends, so do the numbers. But there is always some thing that enables such existence. Such existence cannot be only on its own. Only on its own would mean having no substance behind it, which would mean there's nothing there, which means nonexistence, which by definition does not and can not be.
Cause and effect. No cause, no effect. Effect, so there must be a cause.
Matter has to have a reaction, or a reaction with other matter, so an effect, a change, would occur.

Similarly, no-one has ever asserted that dimensions are tangible things that we can grab hold of. They are frames of reference - left/right, up/down, forward/backward, up-toward/down-toward (I think that's what the directions in the fourth spatial dimension are called?). Dimensions, planes, axes - you will never "find" one floating in front of you, just like you will never find a number or even a thought floating in front of you, but it's absurd to say that that doesn't make them "real".
They aren't real because they have no "substance" behind them. The process itself is not substance. Most people I see talking about these sort of things tend to regard them as something that exist all on their own.
Why I say what I say is because I see in movies and such, and people talk about things like "time travel" and "dimensions". As if you can "go back"... or as if there's some "higher level of existence". There is no "back". What is "higher"? There is only the present, nothing else exists this wise. If there is some other existence then its simply some other existence.
The process of matter is constant, it cannot stop and it only has one "direction", which actually isn't a direction, it's just "processing". All the "matter/energy" does is process, only this.

This is why I asked you what you meant by "dimension". The fact is that in mathematics, the dimension of an object is the minimum number of coordinates required to describe a point on that object. In physics, it's basically the same thing: the number of coordinates required to define the position of a body in space (hence three-dimensional space requires at least three coordinates, two-dimensional space requires two, etc). In physics time is also considered a dimension, as time is required (in our universe at least) to define the position of a body in space (for example, a rocket's position would be blah-blah-blah coordinates at t seconds from launch, or you can extrapolate a plane's position so-and-so seconds before a crash).

There is nothing in this definition that suggests a "thing" or tangible existence or whatever you're arguing. Dimensions in both math and physics are frames of reference and nothing else. One can talk of measurements as dimensions (in essence saying that point B on a line is at co-ordinate [value of length] from point A, assumed to be the origin). But that's it. Nevertheless, it would be absurd to say that dimensions don't "exist", because "the minimum number of coordinates required to specify the position of a body in space" exists.

And frankly, I'm not sure Hollywood or any other movie industry is credible at all when it comes to science. They maximize entertainment value, not accuracy.
Everything is up for questioning. If it won't defend itself, then how do we know it can?
srehtiw
Posts: 491
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3/8/2014 12:32:28 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/8/2014 10:42:29 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 6:04:34 AM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/7/2014 2:11:34 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:34:26 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.
Tell that to practically all of physics and a large portion of math.
These are merely our interpretations of our world - maths, drawings, etc. What I said still applies.
Our world is made of matter/energy that affects itself. Process of matter/energy - we are part of this, as is everything we perceive with our senses. There are no dimensions other than those made up in our minds.

Before I reply to this I have to ask just to be sure. Do you know what a dimension is?
A concept/notion/idea. Relevant only to the mind.

No. A dimension is kind of like a direction for moving in. Humans can move in three. Forwards and back. Left and right. Up and down. Those are the three we can move through. The fourth is time. We can kind of move through that but only forwards and not purposefully. I have no idea what the other 7 are.
nummi
Posts: 294
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3/8/2014 1:30:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/8/2014 12:05:16 PM, jewelessien wrote:
Nevertheless, it would be absurd to say that dimensions don't "exist", because "the minimum number of coordinates required to specify the position of a body in space" exists.
They can apply to things when "viewing" or "measuring" them in our minds. Our senses pick up a fragment of matter's influence or even matter in process, which in turn is translated into another kind of influence/change when it hits our senses. Which then is received by our brain which translates it into notions. When receiving many of those "notions", we perceive in the mind a difference between them - the basis of "dimensions" and all other ways of measuring.
These dimensions and all are merely for more comfortable understanding and mental perception.
"Space" is part of the process as well. Unless you're referring to conceptional space.

And frankly, I'm not sure Hollywood or any other movie industry is credible at all when it comes to science. They maximize entertainment value, not accuracy.
They sure aren't credible. But what is relevant is how they impact the mind and understanding of an "average" mind that doesn't bother much with thinking in the first place. They just see and believe, more so the better special effects...
nummi
Posts: 294
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3/8/2014 1:38:02 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/8/2014 12:32:28 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 10:42:29 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 6:04:34 AM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/7/2014 2:11:34 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:34:26 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.
Tell that to practically all of physics and a large portion of math.
These are merely our interpretations of our world - maths, drawings, etc. What I said still applies.
Our world is made of matter/energy that affects itself. Process of matter/energy - we are part of this, as is everything we perceive with our senses. There are no dimensions other than those made up in our minds.

Before I reply to this I have to ask just to be sure. Do you know what a dimension is?
A concept/notion/idea. Relevant only to the mind.

No. A dimension is kind of like a direction for moving in. Humans can move in three. Forwards and back. Left and right. Up and down. Those are the three we can move through. The fourth is time. We can kind of move through that but only forwards and not purposefully. I have no idea what the other 7 are.
When you talk about "conceptional reality", then sure.
But the real reality, the one outside our minds, of the foundation of our existence. Then no.
These "dimensions" are not what our world is made of. You are talking of them as if they are. What they are are mere concepts made up by us when perceiving differences of our world, and trying to measure and explain what we perceive. They are supposed to be merely for more comfortable perception and understanding.
srehtiw
Posts: 491
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3/8/2014 1:42:59 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/8/2014 1:38:02 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 12:32:28 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 10:42:29 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 6:04:34 AM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/7/2014 2:11:34 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:34:26 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.
Tell that to practically all of physics and a large portion of math.
These are merely our interpretations of our world - maths, drawings, etc. What I said still applies.
Our world is made of matter/energy that affects itself. Process of matter/energy - we are part of this, as is everything we perceive with our senses. There are no dimensions other than those made up in our minds.

Before I reply to this I have to ask just to be sure. Do you know what a dimension is?
A concept/notion/idea. Relevant only to the mind.

No. A dimension is kind of like a direction for moving in. Humans can move in three. Forwards and back. Left and right. Up and down. Those are the three we can move through. The fourth is time. We can kind of move through that but only forwards and not purposefully. I have no idea what the other 7 are.
When you talk about "conceptional reality", then sure.
But the real reality, the one outside our minds, of the foundation of our existence. Then no.
These "dimensions" are not what our world is made of. You are talking of them as if they are. What they are are mere concepts made up by us when perceiving differences of our world, and trying to measure and explain what we perceive. They are supposed to be merely for more comfortable perception and understanding.

No. The universe is not made of them. They simply exists within it. So just to understand your position. Do you think there is any physical difference between me walking forwards and backwards and me walking left and right?
jewelessien
Posts: 155
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3/8/2014 1:48:33 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/8/2014 1:30:54 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 12:05:16 PM, jewelessien wrote:
Nevertheless, it would be absurd to say that dimensions don't "exist", because "the minimum number of coordinates required to specify the position of a body in space" exists.
They can apply to things when "viewing" or "measuring" them in our minds. Our senses pick up a fragment of matter's influence or even matter in process, which in turn is translated into another kind of influence/change when it hits our senses. Which then is received by our brain which translates it into notions. When receiving many of those "notions", we perceive in the mind a difference between them - the basis of "dimensions" and all other ways of measuring.
These dimensions and all are merely for more comfortable understanding and mental perception.
"Space" is part of the process as well. Unless you're referring to conceptional space.

Okay, now you've lost me. "Part of the process"? What the heck is "the process"?

And yes, dimensions exist independent of humanity's thoughts. Whether or not there are humans in the galaxy, there will still be three coordinates required to specify the position of a body in our "reality", which is three-dimensional space. Motion would still exist, and thus dimensions of motion. Or are you arguing that directions would not exist without humans? The fact that humans tag a concept onto a phenomenon does not change the underlying fact of said phenomenon - without us, they would not be called "up" or "down" or whatever, but the phenomenon of directional motion would remain.

And frankly, I'm not sure Hollywood or any other movie industry is credible at all when it comes to science. They maximize entertainment value, not accuracy.
They sure aren't credible. But what is relevant is how they impact the mind and understanding of an "average" mind that doesn't bother much with thinking in the first place. They just see and believe, more so the better special effects...

Still irrelevant. Heck, entertainment media is stupid, and anyone who takes lessons from it is in the same category. Or are we also supposed to believe what Hollywood movies tell us about computers (like how they never seem to have a mouse, or how entire hard disks of files can be conveniently uploaded/downloaded in seconds)?
Everything is up for questioning. If it won't defend itself, then how do we know it can?
alexmiller887
Posts: 11
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3/8/2014 1:51:31 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Well, the second dimension is completely flat, and we live in a 3D world. If I would question any of the dimensions, it would be the fourth dimension- time.
jewelessien
Posts: 155
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3/8/2014 2:05:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/8/2014 1:51:31 PM, alexmiller887 wrote:
Well, the second dimension is completely flat, and we live in a 3D world. If I would question any of the dimensions, it would be the fourth dimension- time.

No, the second dimension is not flat. Two - dimensional space is flat. The second dimension is simply a second coordinate.
And I've said above why time is considered a dimension - in our universe, time is one of the coordinates necessary to accurately specify the position of a body in space.
Everything is up for questioning. If it won't defend itself, then how do we know it can?
nummi
Posts: 294
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3/8/2014 3:00:58 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/8/2014 1:42:59 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 1:38:02 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 12:32:28 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 10:42:29 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 6:04:34 AM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/7/2014 2:11:34 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:34:26 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.
Tell that to practically all of physics and a large portion of math.
These are merely our interpretations of our world - maths, drawings, etc. What I said still applies.
Our world is made of matter/energy that affects itself. Process of matter/energy - we are part of this, as is everything we perceive with our senses. There are no dimensions other than those made up in our minds.

Before I reply to this I have to ask just to be sure. Do you know what a dimension is?
A concept/notion/idea. Relevant only to the mind.

No. A dimension is kind of like a direction for moving in. Humans can move in three. Forwards and back. Left and right. Up and down. Those are the three we can move through. The fourth is time. We can kind of move through that but only forwards and not purposefully. I have no idea what the other 7 are.
When you talk about "conceptional reality", then sure.
But the real reality, the one outside our minds, of the foundation of our existence. Then no.
These "dimensions" are not what our world is made of. You are talking of them as if they are. What they are are mere concepts made up by us when perceiving differences of our world, and trying to measure and explain what we perceive. They are supposed to be merely for more comfortable perception and understanding.

No. The universe is not made of them. They simply exists within it.
Only because we made them up. Only in our minds which exist in our universe.
So just to understand your position. Do you think there is any physical difference between me walking forwards and backwards and me walking left and right?
There is no forward or backward, no left or right. Concepts made up by us as well.
srehtiw
Posts: 491
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3/8/2014 3:03:30 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/8/2014 3:00:58 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 1:42:59 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 1:38:02 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 12:32:28 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 10:42:29 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 6:04:34 AM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/7/2014 2:11:34 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:34:26 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.
Tell that to practically all of physics and a large portion of math.
These are merely our interpretations of our world - maths, drawings, etc. What I said still applies.
Our world is made of matter/energy that affects itself. Process of matter/energy - we are part of this, as is everything we perceive with our senses. There are no dimensions other than those made up in our minds.

Before I reply to this I have to ask just to be sure. Do you know what a dimension is?
A concept/notion/idea. Relevant only to the mind.

No. A dimension is kind of like a direction for moving in. Humans can move in three. Forwards and back. Left and right. Up and down. Those are the three we can move through. The fourth is time. We can kind of move through that but only forwards and not purposefully. I have no idea what the other 7 are.
When you talk about "conceptional reality", then sure.
But the real reality, the one outside our minds, of the foundation of our existence. Then no.
These "dimensions" are not what our world is made of. You are talking of them as if they are. What they are are mere concepts made up by us when perceiving differences of our world, and trying to measure and explain what we perceive. They are supposed to be merely for more comfortable perception and understanding.

No. The universe is not made of them. They simply exists within it.
Only because we made them up. Only in our minds which exist in our universe.
So just to understand your position. Do you think there is any physical difference between me walking forwards and backwards and me walking left and right?
There is no forward or backward, no left or right. Concepts made up by us as well.

Would you also say time is a concept made up by us?
nummi
Posts: 294
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3/8/2014 3:32:15 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/8/2014 1:48:33 PM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/8/2014 1:30:54 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 12:05:16 PM, jewelessien wrote:
Nevertheless, it would be absurd to say that dimensions don't "exist", because "the minimum number of coordinates required to specify the position of a body in space" exists.
They can apply to things when "viewing" or "measuring" them in our minds. Our senses pick up a fragment of matter's influence or even matter in process, which in turn is translated into another kind of influence/change when it hits our senses. Which then is received by our brain which translates it into notions. When receiving many of those "notions", we perceive in the mind a difference between them - the basis of "dimensions" and all other ways of measuring.
These dimensions and all are merely for more comfortable understanding and mental perception.
"Space" is part of the process as well. Unless you're referring to conceptional space.

Okay, now you've lost me. "Part of the process"? What the heck is "the process"?
Our universe is made of "matter/energy" and this is constantly reaction to itself (to various forms of itself), everything is constantly changing. This change is basically why we can think, we can sense, etc. We are this change, part of this process, as well.
"Time" is a "quality" of this process, so is "space".

And yes, dimensions exist independent of humanity's thoughts. Whether or not there are humans in the galaxy, there will still be three coordinates required to specify the position of a body in our "reality", which is three-dimensional space. Motion would still exist, and thus dimensions of motion. Or are you arguing that directions would not exist without humans? The fact that humans tag a concept onto a phenomenon does not change the underlying fact of said phenomenon - without us, they would not be called "up" or "down" or whatever, but the phenomenon of directional motion would remain.
No, they do not. Those concepts need an intelligent mind, to exist. A mind that could come up with such things. If the mind ends, so do those concepts. Or you think they take an existence of their own?

This should be more pictorial.
Imagine a huge ocean of particles, which has also bigger particles in it, even massed together particles. Those particles influence each other - push or pull, get in the way, etc. This is the world we live in. There are no directions, no dimensions, other than those in our minds.

And frankly, I'm not sure Hollywood or any other movie industry is credible at all when it comes to science. They maximize entertainment value, not accuracy.
They sure aren't credible. But what is relevant is how they impact the mind and understanding of an "average" mind that doesn't bother much with thinking in the first place. They just see and believe, more so the better special effects...
Still irrelevant. Heck, entertainment media is stupid, and anyone who takes lessons from it is in the same category. Or are we also supposed to believe what Hollywood movies tell us about computers (like how they never seem to have a mouse, or how entire hard disks of files can be conveniently uploaded/downloaded in seconds)?
It is relevant because very many humans see, have seen, those movies and shows. And so, many humans are misinformed. Usually those kind of movies are labeled science fiction, when they should be labeled fantasy.
But sure, there are far more idiotic things than just this.
nummi
Posts: 294
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3/8/2014 3:33:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/8/2014 3:03:30 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 3:00:58 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 1:42:59 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 1:38:02 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 12:32:28 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 10:42:29 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 6:04:34 AM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/7/2014 2:11:34 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:34:26 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.
Tell that to practically all of physics and a large portion of math.
These are merely our interpretations of our world - maths, drawings, etc. What I said still applies.
Our world is made of matter/energy that affects itself. Process of matter/energy - we are part of this, as is everything we perceive with our senses. There are no dimensions other than those made up in our minds.

Before I reply to this I have to ask just to be sure. Do you know what a dimension is?
A concept/notion/idea. Relevant only to the mind.

No. A dimension is kind of like a direction for moving in. Humans can move in three. Forwards and back. Left and right. Up and down. Those are the three we can move through. The fourth is time. We can kind of move through that but only forwards and not purposefully. I have no idea what the other 7 are.
When you talk about "conceptional reality", then sure.
But the real reality, the one outside our minds, of the foundation of our existence. Then no.
These "dimensions" are not what our world is made of. You are talking of them as if they are. What they are are mere concepts made up by us when perceiving differences of our world, and trying to measure and explain what we perceive. They are supposed to be merely for more comfortable perception and understanding.

No. The universe is not made of them. They simply exists within it.
Only because we made them up. Only in our minds which exist in our universe.
So just to understand your position. Do you think there is any physical difference between me walking forwards and backwards and me walking left and right?
There is no forward or backward, no left or right. Concepts made up by us as well.

Would you also say time is a concept made up by us?
Depends on the definition of time.
srehtiw
Posts: 491
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3/8/2014 3:38:21 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/8/2014 3:33:21 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 3:03:30 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 3:00:58 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 1:42:59 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 1:38:02 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 12:32:28 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 10:42:29 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 6:04:34 AM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/7/2014 2:11:34 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:34:26 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.
Tell that to practically all of physics and a large portion of math.
These are merely our interpretations of our world - maths, drawings, etc. What I said still applies.
Our world is made of matter/energy that affects itself. Process of matter/energy - we are part of this, as is everything we perceive with our senses. There are no dimensions other than those made up in our minds.

Before I reply to this I have to ask just to be sure. Do you know what a dimension is?
A concept/notion/idea. Relevant only to the mind.

No. A dimension is kind of like a direction for moving in. Humans can move in three. Forwards and back. Left and right. Up and down. Those are the three we can move through. The fourth is time. We can kind of move through that but only forwards and not purposefully. I have no idea what the other 7 are.
When you talk about "conceptional reality", then sure.
But the real reality, the one outside our minds, of the foundation of our existence. Then no.
These "dimensions" are not what our world is made of. You are talking of them as if they are. What they are are mere concepts made up by us when perceiving differences of our world, and trying to measure and explain what we perceive. They are supposed to be merely for more comfortable perception and understanding.

No. The universe is not made of them. They simply exists within it.
Only because we made them up. Only in our minds which exist in our universe.
So just to understand your position. Do you think there is any physical difference between me walking forwards and backwards and me walking left and right?
There is no forward or backward, no left or right. Concepts made up by us as well.

Would you also say time is a concept made up by us?
Depends on the definition of time.

How would you define time?
nummi
Posts: 294
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3/8/2014 4:09:17 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/8/2014 3:38:21 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 3:33:21 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 3:03:30 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 3:00:58 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 1:42:59 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 1:38:02 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 12:32:28 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 10:42:29 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 6:04:34 AM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/7/2014 2:11:34 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:34:26 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.
Tell that to practically all of physics and a large portion of math.
These are merely our interpretations of our world - maths, drawings, etc. What I said still applies.
Our world is made of matter/energy that affects itself. Process of matter/energy - we are part of this, as is everything we perceive with our senses. There are no dimensions other than those made up in our minds.

Before I reply to this I have to ask just to be sure. Do you know what a dimension is?
A concept/notion/idea. Relevant only to the mind.

No. A dimension is kind of like a direction for moving in. Humans can move in three. Forwards and back. Left and right. Up and down. Those are the three we can move through. The fourth is time. We can kind of move through that but only forwards and not purposefully. I have no idea what the other 7 are.
When you talk about "conceptional reality", then sure.
But the real reality, the one outside our minds, of the foundation of our existence. Then no.
These "dimensions" are not what our world is made of. You are talking of them as if they are. What they are are mere concepts made up by us when perceiving differences of our world, and trying to measure and explain what we perceive. They are supposed to be merely for more comfortable perception and understanding.

No. The universe is not made of them. They simply exists within it.
Only because we made them up. Only in our minds which exist in our universe.
So just to understand your position. Do you think there is any physical difference between me walking forwards and backwards and me walking left and right?
There is no forward or backward, no left or right. Concepts made up by us as well.

Would you also say time is a concept made up by us?
Depends on the definition of time.

How would you define time?
One is for measurement. Clocks. When something happened or will happen, always taken from a relation to something else, but applied to something that has nothing to do with an "issue" at hand (probably a reason why "time" is viewed as independent, people use it without realizing how it came to be).

The other would be the matter our world is made of and how it always reacts to itself (to its various forms), how it changes, how it processes. Always "onward". Actually, I don't even like the word "time" in this regard.
nummi
Posts: 294
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3/8/2014 4:15:46 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 3/8/2014 4:09:17 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 3:38:21 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 3:33:21 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 3:03:30 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 3:00:58 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 1:42:59 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 1:38:02 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 12:32:28 PM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/8/2014 10:42:29 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/8/2014 6:04:34 AM, srehtiw wrote:
At 3/7/2014 2:11:34 PM, nummi wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:34:26 AM, jewelessien wrote:
At 3/7/2014 4:25:32 AM, nummi wrote:
At 3/6/2014 8:10:25 PM, Spock26 wrote:
If artists can accurately portray 3d images on a 2d surface, then how do we know the 3rd dimension exists in real life and is not just an illusion?
In real life, in reality, there are no dimensions... This 2d and 3d, etc. thing is nonsense... It only applies when dealing with computer generated designs and drawing pictures, sketches, etc. This dimension thing does not apply to actual reality.
Tell that to practically all of physics and a large portion of math.
These are merely our interpretations of our world - maths, drawings, etc. What I said still applies.
Our world is made of matter/energy that affects itself. Process of matter/energy - we are part of this, as is everything we perceive with our senses. There are no dimensions other than those made up in our minds.

Before I reply to this I have to ask just to be sure. Do you know what a dimension is?
A concept/notion/idea. Relevant only to the mind.

No. A dimension is kind of like a direction for moving in. Humans can move in three. Forwards and back. Left and right. Up and down. Those are the three we can move through. The fourth is time. We can kind of move through that but only forwards and not purposefully. I have no idea what the other 7 are.
When you talk about "conceptional reality", then sure.
But the real reality, the one outside our minds, of the foundation of our existence. Then no.
These "dimensions" are not what our world is made of. You are talking of them as if they are. What they are are mere concepts made up by us when perceiving differences of our world, and trying to measure and explain what we perceive. They are supposed to be merely for more comfortable perception and understanding.

No. The universe is not made of them. They simply exists within it.
Only because we made them up. Only in our minds which exist in our universe.
So just to understand your position. Do you think there is any physical difference between me walking forwards and backwards and me walking left and right?
There is no forward or backward, no left or right. Concepts made up by us as well.

Would you also say time is a concept made up by us?
Depends on the definition of time.

How would you define time?
but applied to something that has nothing to do with an "issue" at hand
oh wait... badly worded, i think...
but applied to something that has nothing to do with the initial relation I think this is better, perhaps...