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Define Abortion

ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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4/20/2014 9:20:52 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is a subject that has been bothering me. There are people at my church who may be the saying let gays have marriage, but will absolutely draw the line when it comes to abortion by saying it's murder. I've looked into the research and the only thing that comes up is anti abortion people saying it's murder and they either say a life is a life or they'll show pictures of dead fetuses or babies torn apart.

I'm going to ask that if any religious people are going to argue or try to make a religiously motivated statement on here, please back off. I am trying to get a non-religious view point, and hopefully a more scientific.

My question is that if you support abortion or see why it shouldn't be considered murder, what is the evidence that you can provide and explain that proves that abortion is a good thing?
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/20/2014 11:57:00 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 9:20:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is a subject that has been bothering me. There are people at my church who may be the saying let gays have marriage, but will absolutely draw the line when it comes to abortion by saying it's murder. I've looked into the research and the only thing that comes up is anti abortion people saying it's murder and they either say a life is a life or they'll show pictures of dead fetuses or babies torn apart.

I'm going to ask that if any religious people are going to argue or try to make a religiously motivated statement on here, please back off. I am trying to get a non-religious view point, and hopefully a more scientific.

My question is that if you support abortion or see why it shouldn't be considered murder, what is the evidence that you can provide and explain that proves that abortion is a good thing?

There is nothing inherently good or bad about abortion. I mean, abortions occurs in nature. And you can make arguments that support both positions.

But the arguments that support pro-choice, isnt contingent on evidence that demonstrates that abortion is a good thing, but rather, that there are no good reasons against it.

If you really want reasons, then i suppose things like overpopulation, Forcing a child into foster care because the parent doesnt want the child, and therefore overburdening the system, and making life for thousands, hundreds of thousands of children, demonstrably and unmistakably worse, to the point that homeless children may even start showing up, denying the right for a woman to choose, not having rape victims who became pregnant, to force them to have a children that is the product of rape, etc, comes up.

But within the Anti-abortion populace, you have people who are against abortion even when the child is non-viable, that is, born with a debilitating defect that effectively ensures it will not survive, or even if giving birth would harm, and even kill the mother.

A terrible example of this, is when a nine year old child was raped by her stepfather, and became pregnant with twins, and was told that coming to term and giving birth would most likely kill her, so she underwent an abortion, and yet the catholic church excommunicated her and berated her for having an abortion. I mean, holy cr@p. A nine year old is raped by her stepfather, and has twins that may kill her if she gives birth to them, and people actively berate her for having an abortion?

Interestingly enough, anti-abortionists claim that abortion is murder, and yet, when you ask them what the punishment for a mother who undergoes abortion should be, practically no one ever says "Life imprisonment" or "Death penalty", which is the exact same punishment we give to actual murderers. This demonstrates that they understand the difference between actual murder, and abortion.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,133
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4/21/2014 12:11:13 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 9:20:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is a subject that has been bothering me. There are people at my church who may be the saying let gays have marriage, but will absolutely draw the line when it comes to abortion by saying it's murder. I've looked into the research and the only thing that comes up is anti abortion people saying it's murder and they either say a life is a life or they'll show pictures of dead fetuses or babies torn apart.

I'm going to ask that if any religious people are going to argue or try to make a religiously motivated statement on here, please back off. I am trying to get a non-religious view point, and hopefully a more scientific.

My question is that if you support abortion or see why it shouldn't be considered murder, what is the evidence that you can provide and explain that proves that abortion is a good thing?

When the fetus can be taken out of the mother's body, survive, and have the potential to develop into a fully functioning human, then it has reached an age of viability. The age of viability, based on the development of the fully formed lungs, is estimated to be at or around the 25th week. With this milestone, the fetus has earned all the human rights promised to every other member of the human species. Until that time, the mother's rights are sovereign, since the fetus is an extension of the mother's body.

http://www.debate.org...

Also, I don't think abortion is a good thing, but I do consider it to be necessary in certain cases such as rape, incest, or the mother's life is in danger. I abhor abortion as a means of birth control. I hope this has answered your question.
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ChristianPunk
Posts: 1,710
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4/21/2014 8:58:47 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 11:57:00 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/20/2014 9:20:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is a subject that has been bothering me. There are people at my church who may be the saying let gays have marriage, but will absolutely draw the line when it comes to abortion by saying it's murder. I've looked into the research and the only thing that comes up is anti abortion people saying it's murder and they either say a life is a life or they'll show pictures of dead fetuses or babies torn apart.

I'm going to ask that if any religious people are going to argue or try to make a religiously motivated statement on here, please back off. I am trying to get a non-religious view point, and hopefully a more scientific.

My question is that if you support abortion or see why it shouldn't be considered murder, what is the evidence that you can provide and explain that proves that abortion is a good thing?

There is nothing inherently good or bad about abortion. I mean, abortions occurs in nature. And you can make arguments that support both positions.

But the arguments that support pro-choice, isnt contingent on evidence that demonstrates that abortion is a good thing, but rather, that there are no good reasons against it.

If you really want reasons, then i suppose things like overpopulation, Forcing a child into foster care because the parent doesnt want the child, and therefore overburdening the system, and making life for thousands, hundreds of thousands of children, demonstrably and unmistakably worse, to the point that homeless children may even start showing up, denying the right for a woman to choose, not having rape victims who became pregnant, to force them to have a children that is the product of rape, etc, comes up.

But within the Anti-abortion populace, you have people who are against abortion even when the child is non-viable, that is, born with a debilitating defect that effectively ensures it will not survive, or even if giving birth would harm, and even kill the mother.

A terrible example of this, is when a nine year old child was raped by her stepfather, and became pregnant with twins, and was told that coming to term and giving birth would most likely kill her, so she underwent an abortion, and yet the catholic church excommunicated her and berated her for having an abortion. I mean, holy cr@p. A nine year old is raped by her stepfather, and has twins that may kill her if she gives birth to them, and people actively berate her for having an abortion?

Interestingly enough, anti-abortionists claim that abortion is murder, and yet, when you ask them what the punishment for a mother who undergoes abortion should be, practically no one ever says "Life imprisonment" or "Death penalty", which is the exact same punishment we give to actual murderers. This demonstrates that they understand the difference between actual murder, and abortion.

I think at the rate we are going, we can find a way to expand either the earth or find someplace and somewhere to at least let more of our population happen. At least I think.

1. Would you call Abortion murder (regardless of the age of the mother)?

2. Do you believe we live in a society that murder is always going to happen at some point.

3. Besides the birth defect, do you think that if somebody were to be born with Autism or Aspergers or anything that could be considered a mental illness, would you say those children would not accomplish anything in the future?

4. Let's say abortion was illegal and considered legally murder today. I know you labeled the flaws like over population or children in the foster care system. But I see things like Gay couples can adopt children or even caring Christians like my aunt can adopt children and give them a good home. What would you say is the negative side of it being illegal by it no longer be considered a choice?
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/21/2014 9:53:26 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/21/2014 8:58:47 AM, ChristianPunk wrote:
At 4/20/2014 11:57:00 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/20/2014 9:20:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is a subject that has been bothering me. There are people at my church who may be the saying let gays have marriage, but will absolutely draw the line when it comes to abortion by saying it's murder. I've looked into the research and the only thing that comes up is anti abortion people saying it's murder and they either say a life is a life or they'll show pictures of dead fetuses or babies torn apart.

I'm going to ask that if any religious people are going to argue or try to make a religiously motivated statement on here, please back off. I am trying to get a non-religious view point, and hopefully a more scientific.

My question is that if you support abortion or see why it shouldn't be considered murder, what is the evidence that you can provide and explain that proves that abortion is a good thing?

There is nothing inherently good or bad about abortion. I mean, abortions occurs in nature. And you can make arguments that support both positions.

But the arguments that support pro-choice, isnt contingent on evidence that demonstrates that abortion is a good thing, but rather, that there are no good reasons against it.

If you really want reasons, then i suppose things like overpopulation, Forcing a child into foster care because the parent doesnt want the child, and therefore overburdening the system, and making life for thousands, hundreds of thousands of children, demonstrably and unmistakably worse, to the point that homeless children may even start showing up, denying the right for a woman to choose, not having rape victims who became pregnant, to force them to have a children that is the product of rape, etc, comes up.

But within the Anti-abortion populace, you have people who are against abortion even when the child is non-viable, that is, born with a debilitating defect that effectively ensures it will not survive, or even if giving birth would harm, and even kill the mother.

A terrible example of this, is when a nine year old child was raped by her stepfather, and became pregnant with twins, and was told that coming to term and giving birth would most likely kill her, so she underwent an abortion, and yet the catholic church excommunicated her and berated her for having an abortion. I mean, holy cr@p. A nine year old is raped by her stepfather, and has twins that may kill her if she gives birth to them, and people actively berate her for having an abortion?

Interestingly enough, anti-abortionists claim that abortion is murder, and yet, when you ask them what the punishment for a mother who undergoes abortion should be, practically no one ever says "Life imprisonment" or "Death penalty", which is the exact same punishment we give to actual murderers. This demonstrates that they understand the difference between actual murder, and abortion.

I think at the rate we are going, we can find a way to expand either the earth or find someplace and somewhere to at least let more of our population happen. At least I think.

Sure, but the problem isnt placement, its resources. A population only grows as long as there is enough resources to sustain growth.

1. Would you call Abortion murder (regardless of the age of the mother)?

It would depend upon the circumstances. But simply calling abortion as murder, would also require us to treat it as murder, would it not?

2. Do you believe we live in a society that murder is always going to happen at some point.

Sure, but I suppose it depends on what you mean by murder. If you consider the accidental death of someone, as murder, then yes.

3. Besides the birth defect, do you think that if somebody were to be born with Autism or Aspergers or anything that could be considered a mental illness, would you say those children would not accomplish anything in the future?

Not necessarily, no. But children born with ancephaly, etc, certainly would not accomplish anything in the future, and having them born only to die a few seconds later is far harder, both on the child, and on the parents.

4. Let's say abortion was illegal and considered legally murder today. I know you labeled the flaws like over population or children in the foster care system. But I see things like Gay couples can adopt children or even caring Christians like my aunt can adopt children and give them a good home. What would you say is the negative side of it being illegal by it no longer be considered a choice?

Well, one negative side, is that people who want abortions would have to result to less safe, less favorable methods. But even considering this from a moral standpoint, I think a rape victim shouldnt have to give birth to the child of her rapist, nor should a woman have to carry her baby to term and give birth at the cost of her own life, and risk her life, without having a choice in the matter.

Other than that, accidents that cause miscarriages, would be treated as murder, which I think is unfair.
Floid
Posts: 751
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4/21/2014 10:51:34 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 4/20/2014 9:20:52 PM, ChristianPunk wrote:
This is a subject that has been bothering me. There are people at my church who may be the saying let gays have marriage, but will absolutely draw the line when it comes to abortion by saying it's murder. I've looked into the research and the only thing that comes up is anti abortion people saying it's murder and they either say a life is a life or they'll show pictures of dead fetuses or babies torn apart.

I'm going to ask that if any religious people are going to argue or try to make a religiously motivated statement on here, please back off. I am trying to get a non-religious view point, and hopefully a more scientific.

My question is that if you support abortion or see why it shouldn't be considered murder, what is the evidence that you can provide and explain that proves that abortion is a good thing?

From a purely utilitarian point of view: there have been some 60 million abortions in the United States since Roe v Wade. The country is better off without those additional 60 million people. This is even more true when you consider the statistics about who is likely to have abortions: 18% are teenagers, half are unmarried, 77% are poor, etc.