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New study on the Shroud of Turin

Geogeer
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5/8/2014 5:12:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Just for something different...

"The Man of the Shroud "underwent an under glenoidal dislocation of the humerus on the right side and lowering of the shoulder, and has a flattened hand and enophthalmos; conditions that have not been described before, despite several studies on the subject. These injuries indicate that the Man suffered a violent blunt trauma to the neck, chest and shoulder from behind, causing neuromuscular damage and lesions of the entire brachial plexus.""

"This explains why "the right shoulder is lower than the left by 10"5 degrees" and The right eye is retracted in the orbit" because of the paralysis of the entire arm, the academics say."

"The second discovery described in the Injury article is to do with the double nailing of the Man"s hands: Until now, experts could not explain the absence of thumbprints. The four academics can now reveal that "the lack of thumbprints of both hands on the TS is related not only to a lesion of the median nerve that causes only a slight flexion of the thumb, but also, particularly, to the fact that the nail driven into the wrist has pulled or injured the flexor pollicis longus tendon causing its dragging in the hole and the complete retraction of the thumb.""

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it...
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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5/9/2014 1:46:53 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/8/2014 5:12:55 PM, Geogeer wrote:
Just for something different...

"The Man of the Shroud "underwent an under glenoidal dislocation of the humerus on the right side and lowering of the shoulder, and has a flattened hand and enophthalmos; conditions that have not been described before, despite several studies on the subject. These injuries indicate that the Man suffered a violent blunt trauma to the neck, chest and shoulder from behind, causing neuromuscular damage and lesions of the entire brachial plexus.""

"This explains why "the right shoulder is lower than the left by 10"5 degrees" and The right eye is retracted in the orbit" because of the paralysis of the entire arm, the academics say."

"The second discovery described in the Injury article is to do with the double nailing of the Man"s hands: Until now, experts could not explain the absence of thumbprints. The four academics can now reveal that "the lack of thumbprints of both hands on the TS is related not only to a lesion of the median nerve that causes only a slight flexion of the thumb, but also, particularly, to the fact that the nail driven into the wrist has pulled or injured the flexor pollicis longus tendon causing its dragging in the hole and the complete retraction of the thumb.""

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it...

Holy relics was a big deal back in the day. I think significant evidence from different sources in different ways have concluded that the shroud is a Renascence production.

The very technique of producing one is hinted at in Leonardo's notes.

This is a report to give validity to it's authenticity by claiming the image of real injuries. The injuries could have been from the corpse used to produce such an artifact.

Given the mounting evidence and already so many studies conducted to say the shroud is the cloth Jesus was wrapped in, is an uphill battle. This by no way takes away from what a painful and agonizingly slow death crucifixion would be.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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5/9/2014 11:58:59 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2014 1:46:53 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 5/8/2014 5:12:55 PM, Geogeer wrote:
Just for something different...

"The Man of the Shroud "underwent an under glenoidal dislocation of the humerus on the right side and lowering of the shoulder, and has a flattened hand and enophthalmos; conditions that have not been described before, despite several studies on the subject. These injuries indicate that the Man suffered a violent blunt trauma to the neck, chest and shoulder from behind, causing neuromuscular damage and lesions of the entire brachial plexus.""

"This explains why "the right shoulder is lower than the left by 10"5 degrees" and The right eye is retracted in the orbit" because of the paralysis of the entire arm, the academics say."

"The second discovery described in the Injury article is to do with the double nailing of the Man"s hands: Until now, experts could not explain the absence of thumbprints. The four academics can now reveal that "the lack of thumbprints of both hands on the TS is related not only to a lesion of the median nerve that causes only a slight flexion of the thumb, but also, particularly, to the fact that the nail driven into the wrist has pulled or injured the flexor pollicis longus tendon causing its dragging in the hole and the complete retraction of the thumb.""

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it...

Holy relics was a big deal back in the day. I think significant evidence from different sources in different ways have concluded that the shroud is a Renascence production.

The very technique of producing one is hinted at in Leonardo's notes.

This is a report to give validity to it's authenticity by claiming the image of real injuries. The injuries could have been from the corpse used to produce such an artifact.

Given the mounting evidence and already so many studies conducted to say the shroud is the cloth Jesus was wrapped in, is an uphill battle. This by no way takes away from what a painful and agonizingly slow death crucifixion would be.

I'm a bit busy right now, but I'll address your questions later tonight. Suffice to say that there is no known method either modern or ancient to replicate the image on the shroud.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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5/9/2014 12:06:54 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2014 12:21:21 AM, slo1 wrote:
Why is this in the science section?

This is not a scientific study.

Medical sciences. Published in a medical science journal:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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5/9/2014 12:20:13 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/8/2014 5:12:55 PM, Geogeer wrote:
Just for something different...

"The Man of the Shroud "underwent an under glenoidal dislocation of the humerus on the right side and lowering of the shoulder, and has a flattened hand and enophthalmos; conditions that have not been described before, despite several studies on the subject. These injuries indicate that the Man suffered a violent blunt trauma to the neck, chest and shoulder from behind, causing neuromuscular damage and lesions of the entire brachial plexus.""

"This explains why "the right shoulder is lower than the left by 10"5 degrees" and The right eye is retracted in the orbit" because of the paralysis of the entire arm, the academics say."

"The second discovery described in the Injury article is to do with the double nailing of the Man"s hands: Until now, experts could not explain the absence of thumbprints. The four academics can now reveal that "the lack of thumbprints of both hands on the TS is related not only to a lesion of the median nerve that causes only a slight flexion of the thumb, but also, particularly, to the fact that the nail driven into the wrist has pulled or injured the flexor pollicis longus tendon causing its dragging in the hole and the complete retraction of the thumb.""

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it...

And none of it refutes the dating of it to the middle ages, not to the time Jesus supposedly lived.

I also do not see anything indicating that this was peer reviewed.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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5/9/2014 1:06:34 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2014 12:20:13 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 5/8/2014 5:12:55 PM, Geogeer wrote:
Just for something different...

"The Man of the Shroud "underwent an under glenoidal dislocation of the humerus on the right side and lowering of the shoulder, and has a flattened hand and enophthalmos; conditions that have not been described before, despite several studies on the subject. These injuries indicate that the Man suffered a violent blunt trauma to the neck, chest and shoulder from behind, causing neuromuscular damage and lesions of the entire brachial plexus.""

"This explains why "the right shoulder is lower than the left by 10"5 degrees" and The right eye is retracted in the orbit" because of the paralysis of the entire arm, the academics say."

"The second discovery described in the Injury article is to do with the double nailing of the Man"s hands: Until now, experts could not explain the absence of thumbprints. The four academics can now reveal that "the lack of thumbprints of both hands on the TS is related not only to a lesion of the median nerve that causes only a slight flexion of the thumb, but also, particularly, to the fact that the nail driven into the wrist has pulled or injured the flexor pollicis longus tendon causing its dragging in the hole and the complete retraction of the thumb.""

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it...

And none of it refutes the dating of it to the middle ages, not to the time Jesus supposedly lived.

There is ample evidence to the opposite.

I also do not see anything indicating that this was peer reviewed.

The journal's primary aim is "to facilitate the exchange of ideas, techniques and information among all members of the trauma team."

Medical sciences are not a hard science. Thus this journal is a place for professionals to discuss ideas and share knowledge.

http://www.journals.elsevier.com...
SNP1
Posts: 2,403
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5/9/2014 1:08:57 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2014 1:06:34 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/9/2014 12:20:13 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 5/8/2014 5:12:55 PM, Geogeer wrote:
Just for something different...

"The Man of the Shroud "underwent an under glenoidal dislocation of the humerus on the right side and lowering of the shoulder, and has a flattened hand and enophthalmos; conditions that have not been described before, despite several studies on the subject. These injuries indicate that the Man suffered a violent blunt trauma to the neck, chest and shoulder from behind, causing neuromuscular damage and lesions of the entire brachial plexus.""

"This explains why "the right shoulder is lower than the left by 10"5 degrees" and The right eye is retracted in the orbit" because of the paralysis of the entire arm, the academics say."

"The second discovery described in the Injury article is to do with the double nailing of the Man"s hands: Until now, experts could not explain the absence of thumbprints. The four academics can now reveal that "the lack of thumbprints of both hands on the TS is related not only to a lesion of the median nerve that causes only a slight flexion of the thumb, but also, particularly, to the fact that the nail driven into the wrist has pulled or injured the flexor pollicis longus tendon causing its dragging in the hole and the complete retraction of the thumb.""

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it...

And none of it refutes the dating of it to the middle ages, not to the time Jesus supposedly lived.

There is ample evidence to the opposite.

Really now? Can you bring forth some peer reviewed evidence of that?

I also do not see anything indicating that this was peer reviewed.

The journal's primary aim is "to facilitate the exchange of ideas, techniques and information among all members of the trauma team."

Medical sciences are not a hard science. Thus this journal is a place for professionals to discuss ideas and share knowledge.

http://www.journals.elsevier.com...

Which means, since it appears not to have been peer reviewed, that it is worthless information. Even if it is true there needs to be a degree of peer revision in order to support the claim and the evidence for the claim.
#TheApatheticNihilistPartyofAmerica
#WarOnDDO
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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5/9/2014 1:21:26 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2014 1:08:57 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 5/9/2014 1:06:34 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/9/2014 12:20:13 PM, SNP1 wrote:
At 5/8/2014 5:12:55 PM, Geogeer wrote:
Just for something different...

"The Man of the Shroud "underwent an under glenoidal dislocation of the humerus on the right side and lowering of the shoulder, and has a flattened hand and enophthalmos; conditions that have not been described before, despite several studies on the subject. These injuries indicate that the Man suffered a violent blunt trauma to the neck, chest and shoulder from behind, causing neuromuscular damage and lesions of the entire brachial plexus.""

"This explains why "the right shoulder is lower than the left by 10"5 degrees" and The right eye is retracted in the orbit" because of the paralysis of the entire arm, the academics say."

"The second discovery described in the Injury article is to do with the double nailing of the Man"s hands: Until now, experts could not explain the absence of thumbprints. The four academics can now reveal that "the lack of thumbprints of both hands on the TS is related not only to a lesion of the median nerve that causes only a slight flexion of the thumb, but also, particularly, to the fact that the nail driven into the wrist has pulled or injured the flexor pollicis longus tendon causing its dragging in the hole and the complete retraction of the thumb.""

http://vaticaninsider.lastampa.it...

And none of it refutes the dating of it to the middle ages, not to the time Jesus supposedly lived.

There is ample evidence to the opposite.

Really now? Can you bring forth some peer reviewed evidence of that?

Sure:

Raymond N. Rogers, "Studies on the radiocarbon sample from the Shroud of Turin," Thermochimica Acta Vol. 425, Issues 1-2, 20 January 2005, Pages 189-194

http://www.shroud.it...

The summary is that the corner tested for the C14 did not follow proper scientific procedure and was dissimilar to the rest of the shroud. He goes on to show that flax contains vanillin. Vanillin degrades over time. The shroud contains no vanillin. To exhaust the vanillin in the shroud, the shroud would have to be 1300-3000 years old (depending on the temperature that it was typically stored at).

I also do not see anything indicating that this was peer reviewed.

The journal's primary aim is "to facilitate the exchange of ideas, techniques and information among all members of the trauma team."

Medical sciences are not a hard science. Thus this journal is a place for professionals to discuss ideas and share knowledge.

http://www.journals.elsevier.com...

Which means, since it appears not to have been peer reviewed, that it is worthless information. Even if it is true there needs to be a degree of peer revision in order to support the claim and the evidence for the claim.

Nothing is ever worthless. Galileo was peer reviewed by his peers and his ideas rejected at the time. Peer review adds additional credibility, but it is not the end all and be all of scientific study - particularly in the softer sciences.
slo1
Posts: 4,314
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5/9/2014 1:22:07 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2014 12:06:54 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/9/2014 12:21:21 AM, slo1 wrote:
Why is this in the science section?

This is not a scientific study.

Medical sciences. Published in a medical science journal:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

What medical journal? And how do they see lung contusions on a piece of cloth? Or know an injury was result of carrying a cross? I have never heard that splinters of cross were embedded in the shroud. Again why is this in science when it clearly is not?
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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5/9/2014 1:24:48 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2014 1:22:07 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/9/2014 12:06:54 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/9/2014 12:21:21 AM, slo1 wrote:
Why is this in the science section?

This is not a scientific study.

Medical sciences. Published in a medical science journal:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

What medical journal? And how do they see lung contusions on a piece of cloth? Or know an injury was result of carrying a cross? I have never heard that splinters of cross were embedded in the shroud. Again why is this in science when it clearly is not?

Forensics is a soft science. You can debate the merits of their conclusions - or you can avoid discussion of it all together.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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5/9/2014 1:26:42 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2014 1:24:48 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/9/2014 1:22:07 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/9/2014 12:06:54 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/9/2014 12:21:21 AM, slo1 wrote:
Why is this in the science section?

This is not a scientific study.

Medical sciences. Published in a medical science journal:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

What medical journal? And how do they see lung contusions on a piece of cloth? Or know an injury was result of carrying a cross? I have never heard that splinters of cross were embedded in the shroud. Again why is this in science when it clearly is not?

Forensics is a soft science. You can debate the merits of their conclusions - or you can avoid discussion of it all together.

Or maybe I'd be better to say that forensics is an application of the sciences.
slo1
Posts: 4,314
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5/9/2014 5:22:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2014 1:24:48 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/9/2014 1:22:07 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/9/2014 12:06:54 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/9/2014 12:21:21 AM, slo1 wrote:
Why is this in the science section?

This is not a scientific study.

Medical sciences. Published in a medical science journal:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

What medical journal? And how do they see lung contusions on a piece of cloth? Or know an injury was result of carrying a cross? I have never heard that splinters of cross were embedded in the shroud. Again why is this in science when it clearly is not?

Forensics is a soft science. You can debate the merits of their conclusions - or you can avoid discussion of it all together.

Ok fine. My first merit of debate.

The "Neck and shoulder muscle paralysis" was not from carrying a cross and falling violently to the ground, but instead from carrying a flat rock which he was walking from the quarry to his lords castle that was being built to defend from the marauding Muslims when he tripped on a rock which a co-worker was to clean off the path but didn't. when he fell the rock, which was extremely heavy caused all the damage cited in the study. The lack of finger prints was more so from putting his hands out as he fell and scrapping the prints off on the gravelly dirt.

Amen
Geogeer
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5/9/2014 10:43:12 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2014 5:22:19 PM, slo1 wrote:

Ok fine. My first merit of debate.

The "Neck and shoulder muscle paralysis" was not from carrying a cross and falling violently to the ground, but instead from carrying a flat rock which he was walking from the quarry to his lords castle that was being built to defend from the marauding Muslims when he tripped on a rock which a co-worker was to clean off the path but didn't. when he fell the rock, which was extremely heavy caused all the damage cited in the study. The lack of finger prints was more so from putting his hands out as he fell and scrapping the prints off on the gravelly dirt.

Amen

Hahaha.... You have no idea what you're even talking about.

Do all atheists suffer such butt hurt over nothing?
slo1
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5/10/2014 9:15:10 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/9/2014 10:43:12 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/9/2014 5:22:19 PM, slo1 wrote:

Ok fine. My first merit of debate.

The "Neck and shoulder muscle paralysis" was not from carrying a cross and falling violently to the ground, but instead from carrying a flat rock which he was walking from the quarry to his lords castle that was being built to defend from the marauding Muslims when he tripped on a rock which a co-worker was to clean off the path but didn't. when he fell the rock, which was extremely heavy caused all the damage cited in the study. The lack of finger prints was more so from putting his hands out as he fell and scrapping the prints off on the gravelly dirt.

Amen

Hahaha.... You have no idea what you're even talking about.

Do all atheists suffer such butt hurt over nothing?

Of course, because there is no alternative explanation other than Jesus. Nobody in the entire world has ever been crucified other than Jesus. Not to mention they must have saw the tag Mary sewed on the shroud that said "Jesus".

The simple fact that they do not consider any alternative explanations shows anyone willing to have an open mind that this is not science.

I'm not athiest by the way. Why you feel so threatened towards calling this conclusion to this study biased when clearly biased is what it is?
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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5/10/2014 4:05:55 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/10/2014 9:15:10 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/9/2014 10:43:12 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/9/2014 5:22:19 PM, slo1 wrote:

Ok fine. My first merit of debate.

The "Neck and shoulder muscle paralysis" was not from carrying a cross and falling violently to the ground, but instead from carrying a flat rock which he was walking from the quarry to his lords castle that was being built to defend from the marauding Muslims when he tripped on a rock which a co-worker was to clean off the path but didn't. when he fell the rock, which was extremely heavy caused all the damage cited in the study. The lack of finger prints was more so from putting his hands out as he fell and scrapping the prints off on the gravelly dirt.

Amen

Hahaha.... You have no idea what you're even talking about.

Do all atheists suffer such butt hurt over nothing?

Of course, because there is no alternative explanation other than Jesus. Nobody in the entire world has ever been crucified other than Jesus. Not to mention they must have saw the tag Mary sewed on the shroud that said "Jesus".

Very well we have a cloth that is purported to be the burial cloth of Jesus. It has human blood on it containing blood shed both while the body was alive and after death. The blood contains elevated amounts of bilirubin which show that the person crucified has been tortured.

The blood marks on the shroud correspond to the instruments Romans used for flogging and their spearheads for the wound in the side. The crown of thorns has been applied to the head of the victim. Everything about the shroud corresponds directly to the wounds purported to have been inflicted upon Jesus.

Next the image on the shroud is separate from the blood evidence present. There is no known modern or ancient technique that can reproduce the image on the shroud. It is unique in all the world.

And that is just the beginning of the science, never mind the history of it.

The simple fact that they do not consider any alternative explanations shows anyone willing to have an open mind that this is not science.

This is forensics work. Does the evidence match up with the story. If this were a crime scene and you had a story being told by one side you would comb through the evidence to see if it matched. You use your knowledge and expertise to do so. That is what these doctor did. Does the evidence present on the shroud concur or disagree with the story being provided. They have presented their opinion as to additional conclusions can logically be reached based on the evidence at hand.

I'm not athiest by the way. Why you feel so threatened towards calling this conclusion to this study biased when clearly biased is what it is?

"All the evidence is in favour of the hypothesis that the TS Man is Jesus of Nazareth."

They have said they are of the opinion that the evidence supports the shroud being that of Jesus. They have presented their findings for others to review and discuss.
slo1
Posts: 4,314
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5/12/2014 7:42:19 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/10/2014 4:05:55 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/10/2014 9:15:10 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 5/9/2014 10:43:12 PM, Geogeer wrote:
At 5/9/2014 5:22:19 PM, slo1 wrote:

Ok fine. My first merit of debate.

The "Neck and shoulder muscle paralysis" was not from carrying a cross and falling violently to the ground, but instead from carrying a flat rock which he was walking from the quarry to his lords castle that was being built to defend from the marauding Muslims when he tripped on a rock which a co-worker was to clean off the path but didn't. when he fell the rock, which was extremely heavy caused all the damage cited in the study. The lack of finger prints was more so from putting his hands out as he fell and scrapping the prints off on the gravelly dirt.

Amen

Hahaha.... You have no idea what you're even talking about.

Do all atheists suffer such butt hurt over nothing?

Of course, because there is no alternative explanation other than Jesus. Nobody in the entire world has ever been crucified other than Jesus. Not to mention they must have saw the tag Mary sewed on the shroud that said "Jesus".

Very well we have a cloth that is purported to be the burial cloth of Jesus. It has human blood on it containing blood shed both while the body was alive and after death. The blood contains elevated amounts of bilirubin which show that the person crucified has been tortured.

The blood marks on the shroud correspond to the instruments Romans used for flogging and their spearheads for the wound in the side. The crown of thorns has been applied to the head of the victim. Everything about the shroud corresponds directly to the wounds purported to have been inflicted upon Jesus.

Next the image on the shroud is separate from the blood evidence present. There is no known modern or ancient technique that can reproduce the image on the shroud. It is unique in all the world.

And that is just the beginning of the science, never mind the history of it.

The simple fact that they do not consider any alternative explanations shows anyone willing to have an open mind that this is not science.

This is forensics work. Does the evidence match up with the story. If this were a crime scene and you had a story being told by one side you would comb through the evidence to see if it matched. You use your knowledge and expertise to do so. That is what these doctor did. Does the evidence present on the shroud concur or disagree with the story being provided. They have presented their opinion as to additional conclusions can logically be reached based on the evidence at hand.

I'm not athiest by the way. Why you feel so threatened towards calling this conclusion to this study biased when clearly biased is what it is?

"All the evidence is in favour of the hypothesis that the TS Man is Jesus of Nazareth."

They have said they are of the opinion that the evidence supports the shroud being that of Jesus. They have presented their findings for others to review and discuss.

<sigh>
A real CSI, I tell you.
RoyLatham
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5/13/2014 12:39:54 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
The Shroud was carbon dated by two independent labs to being created in the Middle Ages, when selling faked relics was a common enterprise. The rationale given for invalidating the dating was that maybe the material tested was from a repair made at that time. Who the man is, whether he was injured, or how the fake was made are not relevant to the dating.
Wylted
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5/21/2014 9:54:20 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
Here you go. http://www.debate.org...

Me and Geogeer already debates this topic. My main point is that although certain things can be disputed. Main stream Historians date the shroud back to medieval times. Carbon dating places the shroud at the same time period.

You have quite a bit if different fields of experts dating the shroud back to medieval times. Even though conflicting evidence can be found that sounds good on the surface, it is beyond coincidence that so many different fields if experts independently confirm the shroud's date to be of medieval origin.
Geogeer
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5/23/2014 6:13:08 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 5/21/2014 9:54:20 PM, Wylted wrote:
Here you go. http://www.debate.org...

Me and Geogeer already debates this topic. My main point is that although certain things can be disputed. Main stream Historians date the shroud back to medieval times. Carbon dating places the shroud at the same time period.

We'll disagree that mainstream historians make that agreement.

You have quite a bit if different fields of experts dating the shroud back to medieval times. Even though conflicting evidence can be found that sounds good on the surface, it is beyond coincidence that so many different fields if experts independently confirm the shroud's date to be of medieval origin.

The only evidence that it is medieval in origin is the C14 test which I have shown through peer review to be inaccurate...

Although this article does better answer your assertion about lying on your back and covering your crotch with your hands. A dislocated shoulder makes that simple.

Just like old times...