Total Posts:10|Showing Posts:1-10
Jump to topic:

The Only Valid Creationist Position

HumbleThinker1
Posts: 144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/6/2014 7:16:10 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
These words, authored by Todd Wood and Kurt Wise respectively, represent the only valid position someone can hold in regards to creationism, particularly as it relates to evolution:

"Creationist students, listen to me very carefully: There is evidence for evolution, and evolution is an extremely successful scientific theory. That doesn't make it ultimately true, and it doesn't mean that there could not possibly be viable alternatives. It is my own faith choice to reject evolution, because I believe the Bible reveals true information about the history of the earth that is fundamentally incompatible with evolution. I am motivated to understand God's creation from what I believe to be a biblical, creationist perspective. Evolution itself is not flawed or without evidence. Please don't be duped into thinking that somehow evolution itself is a failure. Please don't idolize your own ability to reason. Faith is enough. If God said it, that should settle it. Maybe that's not enough for your scoffing professor or your non-Christian friends, but it should be enough for you." -Todd Wood

"As I shared with my professors years ago when I was in college, if all the evidence in the universe turns against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate. Here I must stand." -Kurt Wise

IOW, the only valid position is one that openly states that evolution has scientific evidence and that creationism is help to solely out of a belief that that is what the Bible teaches. Even though creationism is quite false, the authors here are at least honestly conveying the reality of things. God does not need one to lie about the scientific evidence for evolution or creationism. As Todd Wood said above, "Faith is enough. If God said it, that should settle it." And as Romans 3:8 says: "And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), "Let us do evil that good may come "? Their condemnation is just."
Subutai
Posts: 3,235
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/6/2014 7:20:38 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
This looks like an admission of defeat, and a retreat to aspect of religion that science can't definitively disprove - faith in God.
I'm becoming less defined as days go by, fading away, and well you might say, I'm losing focus, kinda drifting into the abstract in terms of how I see myself.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2014 5:36:30 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
This is religion at it's worst.

It allows a kind of reasoning/rationale that we don't accept anywhere else.

"God said it", "bible" "faith". No matter what counter is provided.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Enji
Posts: 1,022
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2014 5:38:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/6/2014 7:20:38 PM, Subutai wrote:
This looks like an admission of defeat, and a retreat to aspect of religion that science can't definitively disprove - faith in God.

It's interesting that you say that. Todd Wood seems to advocate stepping back from the science debate and focussing on the social, religious, cultural debate. http://www.colossianforum.org...
Enji
Posts: 1,022
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2014 5:39:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/7/2014 5:36:30 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
This is religion at it's worst.

It allows a kind of reasoning/rationale that we don't accept anywhere else.

"God said it", "bible" "faith". No matter what counter is provided.

On the other hand, I think it's Creation science at its best.
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2014 6:00:42 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/7/2014 5:39:15 AM, Enji wrote:
At 6/7/2014 5:36:30 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
This is religion at it's worst.

It allows a kind of reasoning/rationale that we don't accept anywhere else.

"God said it", "bible" "faith". No matter what counter is provided.

On the other hand, I think it's Creation science at its best.

It's a double standard.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
HumbleThinker1
Posts: 144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2014 7:35:15 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/6/2014 7:20:38 PM, Subutai wrote:
This looks like an admission of defeat, and a retreat to aspect of religion that science can't definitively disprove - faith in God.

But defeat would imply a competition to begin with. If one simply accepts that science almost certainly shows this while they think the Bible shows this and accurately portrays such, I dont see it neccessarily as an admission of defeat. Todd Wood in particular is at least trying to conduct original research to try and support creationism unlike most creationists. Its baraminology so it will be futile but at least he is trying and doesn't misrepresent evolution in doing so unlike most creationists I know.
HumbleThinker1
Posts: 144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2014 7:37:25 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/7/2014 5:36:30 AM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
This is religion at it's worst.

It allows a kind of reasoning/rationale that we don't accept anywhere else.

"God said it", "bible" "faith". No matter what counter is provided.

I find misrepresenting the alternative position and the evidence for ones own much worse. If one is going to be irrational at least be honest.
Crescendo
Posts: 470
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2014 8:47:35 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/6/2014 7:16:10 PM, HumbleThinker1 wrote:
These words, authored by Todd Wood and Kurt Wise respectively, represent the only valid position someone can hold in regards to creationism, particularly as it relates to evolution:

"Creationist students, listen to me very carefully: There is evidence for evolution, and evolution is an extremely successful scientific theory. That doesn't make it ultimately true, and it doesn't mean that there could not possibly be viable alternatives. It is my own faith choice to reject evolution, because I believe the Bible reveals true information about the history of the earth that is fundamentally incompatible with evolution. I am motivated to understand God's creation from what I believe to be a biblical, creationist perspective. Evolution itself is not flawed or without evidence. Please don't be duped into thinking that somehow evolution itself is a failure. Please don't idolize your own ability to reason. Faith is enough. If God said it, that should settle it. Maybe that's not enough for your scoffing professor or your non-Christian friends, but it should be enough for you." -Todd Wood

"As I shared with my professors years ago when I was in college, if all the evidence in the universe turns against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate. Here I must stand." -Kurt Wise

IOW, the only valid position is one that openly states that evolution has scientific evidence and that creationism is help to solely out of a belief that that is what the Bible teaches. Even though creationism is quite false, the authors here are at least honestly conveying the reality of things. God does not need one to lie about the scientific evidence for evolution or creationism. As Todd Wood said above, "Faith is enough. If God said it, that should settle it." And as Romans 3:8 says: "And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), "Let us do evil that good may come "? Their condemnation is just."

First of all, faith is important. Without faith it's impossible to please God.
In this regard the guy was right; even if the evidence seems to lean towards evolution one must not abandon their faith.
This is a concept that atheists often cannot understand. To them, if you cannot see or hear or pick it up with an instrument, it must not exist. Those who believe in what there is no evidence for, according to the average atheist, is a fool. But why is that? If God exists, surely He must be outside of this Universe, and the laws which govern this Universe do not apply to Him. You cannot detect God on an instrument, but that doesn't necessarily mean that He doesn't exist.

That being said, evolution has not won. In that respect the man was wrong. I have faith, but I have reason too. And though my faith is more important, I do not intend on ever abandoning the intellectual part of my belief in Creationism.
My View of the World:
http://www.debate.org...

My Greatest Debate (As of so far):
http://www.debate.org...
HumbleThinker1
Posts: 144
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
6/7/2014 9:29:04 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 6/7/2014 8:47:35 PM, Crescendo wrote:
Those who believe in what there is no evidence for, according to the average atheist, is a fool. But why is that? If God exists, surely He must be outside of this Universe, and the laws which govern this Universe do not apply to Him. You cannot detect God on an instrument, but that doesn't necessarily mean that He doesn't exist.

Just as an aside here, you essentially answer your own question with the following sentences. "surely He must be outside of this Universe..." is special pleading whether it's true or not because you cannot provide evidence that it is true. The reasoning would simply be circular based on the definition of a god or God. And because God cannot be detected, an atheist has no reason to believe He exists and all the reason to believe that He doesn't for the same reasons an atheist believes that there are no mammal/avian transitional organisms/fossils: the current state of the body of evidence.

That being said, evolution has not won. In that respect the man was wrong. I have faith, but I have reason too. And though my faith is more important, I do not intend on ever abandoning the intellectual part of my belief in Creationism.

There's no winning or losing, so you are correct that evolution has not "won." But it has been well documented and supported by a myriad of lines of independent evidence, producing consilience. There is, on the other hand, no evidence for creationism. This is true if only from a practical level because creationists by and large do not do original research to support creationism. Todd Wood is one of the few exceptions, but the work he has done so far from what I have read does not support creationism or disprove evolution.