Total Posts:47|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Collectivism and Serotonin

Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 7:57:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Check out this new research that I just find absolutely fascinating:

Psychological researchers have found that individuals in collectivist societies, as opposed to individualistic societies, have a higher concentration of serotonin transporters. For those of you who are not really into neuro-psychology, serotonin is the neurotransmitter that helps regulate weight, mood, memory, learning, and muscle contraction amongst a few more things. It helps keep you happy, de-stressed, learning, and at a good weight. Anyway, here's what the research says:

"Culture–gene coevolutionary theory posits that cultural values have evolved, are adaptive and influence the social and physical environments under which genetic selection operates. Here, we examined the association between cultural values of individualism–collectivism and allelic frequency of the serotonin transporter functional polymorphism (5-HTTLPR) as well as the role this culture–gene association may play in explaining global variability in prevalence of pathogens and affective disorders. We found evidence that collectivistic cultures were significantly more likely to comprise individuals carrying the short (S) allele of the 5-HTTLPR across 29 nations. Results further show that historical pathogen prevalence predicts cultural variability in individualism–collectivism owing to genetic selection of the S allele. Additionally, cultural values and frequency of S allele carriers negatively predict global prevalence of anxiety and mood disorder. Finally, mediation analyses further indicate that increased frequency of S allele carriers predicted decreased anxiety and mood disorder prevalence owing to increased collectivistic cultural values. Taken together, our findings suggest culture–gene coevolution between allelic frequency of 5-HTTLPR and cultural values of individualism–collectivism and support the notion that cultural values buffer genetically susceptible populations from increased prevalence of affective disorders. Implications of the current findings for understanding culture–gene coevolution of human brain and behaviour as well as how this coevolutionary process may contribute to global variation in pathogen prevalence and epidemiology of affective disorders, such as anxiety and depression, are discussed."

Culture–gene coevolution of individualism–collectivism and the serotonin transporter gene

Joan Y. Chiao1, and Katherine D. Blizinsky


If anyone would like the actual PDF of this, I'll send it to you. I got this research from a professor of mine in aiding with some research we are doing.
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 8:57:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I can just see one of the outliers in such a culture hearing "Bad boy. Grow your dope receptors and get with the program."
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 10:23:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
It's interesting stuff, to be sure, though I wonder how sound the science is behind it... there has been some dubious studies before that based themselves in dual inheritance. But, I must read, for I live for these kinds of studies.

And don't listen to Ragnar; he's just upset that science might prove there is a link between human biology and collectivism, something he couldn't readily deny. :P
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 10:25:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
And don't listen to Ragnar; he's just upset that science might prove there is a link between human biology and collectivism
Ya know there's a bit of a difference between "Collectivism alters brain structure" and "Biology dictates collectivism."
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 10:31:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/22/2010 10:25:05 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Ya know there's a bit of a difference between "Collectivism alters brain structure" and "Biology dictates collectivism."

Well, actually, with the dual inheritance theory, the idea is that biological and cultural evolution influences how you behave. So it would be that your biology, by having this sort of set up in place, is dictating the possibly that you may end up a collectivist.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 10:45:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/22/2010 10:31:52 AM, Volkov wrote:
At 2/22/2010 10:25:05 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Ya know there's a bit of a difference between "Collectivism alters brain structure" and "Biology dictates collectivism."

Well, actually, with the dual inheritance theory
You mean the term not mentioned in the post I was supposedly upset about.

the idea is that biological and cultural evolution influences how you behave
The paper points toward culture selecting for genes, not either genes or culture being deterministic things. It doesn't even mention a behavior, it mentions a mood disorder. Which might be diagnosed from behaviors... many of which are behaviors you probably don't want to get caught displaying in open view in a collectivist world.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 10:51:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/22/2010 10:45:34 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
You mean the term not mentioned in the post I was supposedly upset about.

The paper points toward culture selecting for genes, not either genes or culture being deterministic things. It doesn't even mention a behavior, it mentions a mood disorder. Which might be diagnosed from behaviors... many of which are behaviors you probably don't want to get caught displaying in open view in a collectivist world.

"Culture–gene coevolution" is just another word for dual inheritance theory. Dual inheritance theory says that your biology and your culture determine your behavior. This article explains how the biological reactions in the brain towards collectivist activities may influence how humans behave in general. That's what the general theory is. So... no, you're wrong.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 10:56:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Where does the paper, you know, mention behavior?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 11:01:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/22/2010 10:56:05 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Where does the paper, you know, mention behavior?

That might have been me presupposing, actually. However, if the paper is based around dual inheritance, as it seems to be, then I don't think its a leap too far to say that they're attempting to explain this certain behavior's roots in biology, specifically the reactions in the brain towards such activities, etc. There wouldn't be a need to mention culture-gene coevolution otherwise.

Plus, I don't think we have the entire article, only a little preview.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 11:09:04 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
this certain behavior's
Again with the unnamed behavior. :P
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 11:13:27 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/22/2010 11:09:04 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
this certain behavior's
Again with the unnamed behavior. :P

Behavior, characteristic, bias - whatever you'd like to call a presupposition to collectivist ideology. Oh, and INB4 "retardation."
Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 1:12:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/22/2010 10:45:34 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:

It doesn't even mention a behavior, it mentions a mood disorder. Which might be diagnosed from behaviors... many of which are behaviors you probably don't want to get caught displaying in open view in a collectivist world. :

Serotonin initiates behaviors. You're a biological machine driven by your neuro-transmitters.

Also, they measured the transmitters in the brain - by saying "you probably don't want to get caught displaying in open view in a collectivist world" you're assuming this was a survey question of "are you happy?"

No, they literally measured the amount of transmitters in each person's brain and found out people in collectivist societies carry more serotonin transmitters than people in individualistic societies.

And yes, Volkov, they are talking culture-gene coevolution. Fascinating :)

If anyone would like the entire PDF, pm me with your email address and I'll send it to you.
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 1:17:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/22/2010 1:12:17 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
If anyone would like the entire PDF, pm me with your email address and I'll send it to you.

Or you could just click this link: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org...
Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 1:20:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/22/2010 1:17:01 PM, Nags wrote:
At 2/22/2010 1:12:17 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
If anyone would like the entire PDF, pm me with your email address and I'll send it to you.

Or you could just click this link: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org...

Looks shorter than my PDF.
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
Xer
Posts: 7,776
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 1:24:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/22/2010 1:20:52 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
At 2/22/2010 1:17:01 PM, Nags wrote:
At 2/22/2010 1:12:17 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
If anyone would like the entire PDF, pm me with your email address and I'll send it to you.

Or you could just click this link: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org...


Looks shorter than my PDF.

Doubtful. Regardless, there's a link on that page to the PDF as well.
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 1:28:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Which collectivist society and which individualist society were they sampling?
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 1:31:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/22/2010 1:28:16 PM, wjmelements wrote:
Which collectivist society and which individualist society were they sampling?

I think they're sampling the activities and attitudes, rather than "societies."
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 1:32:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Serotonin initiates behaviors.
Doubtful or for one thing antidepressant drugs would work the same for every patient.

You're a biological machine driven by your neuro-transmitters.
I'll believe that when I see someone who can manipulate such things for results as predictable as me typing.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 1:34:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/22/2010 1:32:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Serotonin initiates behaviors.
Doubtful or for one thing antidepressant drugs would work the same for every patient.

You're a biological machine driven by your neuro-transmitters.
I'll believe that when I see someone who can manipulate such things for results as predictable as me typing.

Ragnar... are you a biologist? Or are you going to follow the creationist line of "it isn't true if I don't understand it!"
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 1:34:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Is it possible that higher serotonin makes you more content with being pushed around by others and that's why it's in more collectivist societies?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 1:38:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/22/2010 1:34:34 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Is it possible that higher serotonin makes you more content with being pushed around by others and that's why it's in more collectivist societies?

No, serotonin helps people communicate and work together, not build up a shell and get pushed around.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 1:39:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/22/2010 1:34:08 PM, Volkov wrote:
At 2/22/2010 1:32:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Serotonin initiates behaviors.
Doubtful or for one thing antidepressant drugs would work the same for every patient.

You're a biological machine driven by your neuro-transmitters.
I'll believe that when I see someone who can manipulate such things for results as predictable as me typing.

Ragnar... are you a biologist? Or are you going to follow the creationist line of "it isn't true if I don't understand it!"
I'm going to follow the statisticians line of "correlation is not causation."
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 1:39:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/22/2010 1:38:35 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 2/22/2010 1:34:34 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Is it possible that higher serotonin makes you more content with being pushed around by others and that's why it's in more collectivist societies?

No, serotonin helps people communicate and work together, not build up a shell and get pushed around.

Well, that's what happens in collectivism.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 1:40:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/22/2010 1:38:35 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 2/22/2010 1:34:34 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Is it possible that higher serotonin makes you more content with being pushed around by others and that's why it's in more collectivist societies?

No, serotonin helps people communicate and work together, not build up a shell and get pushed around.

Somehow I doubt serotonin differentiates between voluntarily working with someone and Stockholm syndrome.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
belle
Posts: 4,113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 10:32:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
wow this is the first time i've heard about this kind of research. it *is* fascinating.

are they suggesting that a collectivist cultural values are adaptations to a population with a high frequency of the S allele? or that the cultural values became beneficial as the result of repeated exposure to pathogens, and those with the S allele were better suited to capitalize on such a shift in cultural winds? or neither?

in any case i am a bit confused about the concept of dual inheritance theory itself. culture "evolves" much faster than genes do... if there was an effect it would have to be due to a long standing theme in the culture rather than anything too specific. but taken that way i wonder if they say anything new- behavior alters environment which exerts selective pressure, eventually altering genes. basically saying- natural selection doesn't stop just because we have this fancy culture... the traits selected for just tend to be quite different than they have been in the past.

...right?

if i have anything blatantly wrong, please let me know.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 10:52:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/22/2010 10:32:10 PM, belle wrote:
wow this is the first time i've heard about this kind of research. it *is* fascinating.

are they suggesting that a collectivist cultural values are adaptations to a population with a high frequency of the S allele? or that the cultural values became beneficial as the result of repeated exposure to pathogens, and those with the S allele were better suited to capitalize on such a shift in cultural winds? or neither?
Neither, the summary Vi posted says that collectivist cultures over time CAUSE a higher frequency of the S allele.


in any case i am a bit confused about the concept of dual inheritance theory itself. culture "evolves" much faster than genes do...
In individualist countries maybe. Ancestor-worshipping Oriental collectivists, not so much, especially without outside pressure.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
2/22/2010 11:56:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 2/22/2010 10:52:31 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 2/22/2010 10:32:10 PM, belle wrote:
wow this is the first time i've heard about this kind of research. it *is* fascinating.

are they suggesting that a collectivist cultural values are adaptations to a population with a high frequency of the S allele? or that the cultural values became beneficial as the result of repeated exposure to pathogens, and those with the S allele were better suited to capitalize on such a shift in cultural winds? or neither?
Neither, the summary Vi posted says that collectivist cultures over time CAUSE a higher frequency of the S allele.

The paper doesn't really say that. Collectivist East Asian populations have a higher frequency of S allele carriers (much like the Missense mutation for the ALDH2 gene) for which should give rise to anxiety and mood disorders more prevalent than what is exhibited (in comparison to 'Western' culture). They postulate that since these populations have a higher frequency and the exhibition is low, that the culture is a mediating factor in the low exhibit - it was selected for as a buffer against mood disorders, anxiety etc. Not that serotonin causes collectivism - serotonin > negative mood > populations selects towards mediating effects of the negative behaviour (Asian collectivism somehow does this - they postulate lower levels of stress).

Whole lot of problems with describing causality accurately.