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Cause and Effect.

FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/15/2010 3:27:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I stated that all things have a cause.

Someone challenged it.

My case:

Besides the flimsy statement that it just makes sense, I think it is also a necessary assumption because to say otherwise is to relinquish any need to figure-out anything because anything could happen for no logical reason at all if it were indeed the case that cause and effect are not absolute.

Discuss.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/15/2010 3:29:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 3:27:27 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I stated that all things have a cause.

Someone challenged it.

My case:

Besides the flimsy statement that it just makes sense, I think it is also a necessary assumption because to say otherwise is to relinquish any need to figure-out anything because anything could happen for no logical reason at all if it were indeed the case that cause and effect are not absolute.

Discuss.

so what causes this system of causes and effects??

Is this system caused??
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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3/15/2010 3:31:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 3:29:49 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/15/2010 3:27:27 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I stated that all things have a cause.

Someone challenged it.

My case:

Besides the flimsy statement that it just makes sense, I think it is also a necessary assumption because to say otherwise is to relinquish any need to figure-out anything because anything could happen for no logical reason at all if it were indeed the case that cause and effect are not absolute.

Discuss.

so what causes this system of causes and effects??

Is this system caused??

No. Rather, it exists because it must exist since it is paradoxical for it not too.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
badger
Posts: 11,793
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3/15/2010 3:36:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 3:27:27 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I stated that all things have a cause.

Someone challenged it.

My case:

Besides the flimsy statement that it just makes sense, I think it is also a necessary assumption because to say otherwise is to relinquish any need to figure-out anything because anything could happen for no logical reason at all if it were indeed the case that cause and effect are not absolute.

Discuss.

That's not even a case. Saying that it's better to assume it just because it might keep us motivated does nothing for your argument. That'd be like saying it's better to believe in God because the thought of an afterlife comforts you when you're arguing God's existence.
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popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/15/2010 3:46:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 3:27:27 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I stated that all things have a cause.

Someone challenged it.

My case:

Besides the flimsy statement that it just makes sense, I think it is also a necessary assumption because to say otherwise is to relinquish any need to figure-out anything because anything could happen for no logical reason at all if it were indeed the case that cause and effect are not absolute.

Discuss.

Congratulations on creating an infinite regress.
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Immortal
Posts: 350
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3/15/2010 3:58:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 3:46:41 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/15/2010 3:27:27 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I stated that all things have a cause.

Someone challenged it.

My case:

Besides the flimsy statement that it just makes sense, I think it is also a necessary assumption because to say otherwise is to relinquish any need to figure-out anything because anything could happen for no logical reason at all if it were indeed the case that cause and effect are not absolute.

Discuss.

Congratulations on creating an infinite regress.

Nothing wrong with infinite regress.
Floid
Posts: 751
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3/16/2010 3:57:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Well:

1.) You lose the debate because it is obvious that it is not demonstratable that everything has a cause.

2.) Your basic idea boils down to "It is easier for us to assume that everything obeys cause and effect because it makes it easier to think about things". This may be true, but just because it is the tidiest way for us to think about things doesn't make it true. In fact, most of your 20th century phyics (both relativity and quantum mechanics) began showing that as you leave the scale on which we generally perceive things, what seems logical starts to go out the window.

3.) :I think it is also a necessary assumption because to say otherwise is to relinquish any need to figure-out anything because anything could happen for no logical reason at all if it were indeed the case that cause and effect are not absolute.

Well this isn't true. From the perspective of science, it is very likely that we will every figure it all out. But does this mean that we shouldn't try? Or that even if we may not get back to the single source of everything, or the one equation that describes the universe, or some other singular discovery that trumps all others that each incremental step of understanding is worthless? Of course not.
Floid
Posts: 751
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3/16/2010 4:00:14 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
And I really should reread stuff before I post it... 3.) should read:

Well this isn't true. From the perspective of science, it is very unlikely that we will ever figure it all out.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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3/16/2010 10:59:43 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
There are two ways of looking at this.

Either the cause and effect go on for eternity.

Or

Something existed which had no cause but which produced an effect, that existed for eternity before the effect occured.
Marauder
Posts: 3,271
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3/16/2010 11:34:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/16/2010 10:59:43 AM, tkubok wrote:
There are two ways of looking at this.

Either Freedo's right.

Or

A some sort of God did it that at least started the initial effects that are causes for everything else.

Glad to know what it takes to convert you to a theist Tkbok ;)
One act of Rebellion created all the darkness and evil in the world; One life of Total Obedience created a path back to eternity and God.

A Scout is Obedient.
Immortal
Posts: 350
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3/16/2010 1:34:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think this is better for the religion section since this ties in with the cosmological argument.

Otherwise, what causes virtual particles?

http://science.jrank.org...
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/16/2010 2:21:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/15/2010 3:31:43 PM, FREEDO wrote:
No. Rather, it exists because it must exist since it is paradoxical for it not too.

FREEDO wrote:
all things have a cause.

mattrodstrom wrote:
Is this system caused??

Freedo wrote:
"NO"

There's your Paradox right there :)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Immortal
Posts: 350
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3/16/2010 2:26:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/16/2010 2:21:50 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/15/2010 3:31:43 PM, FREEDO wrote:
No. Rather, it exists because it must exist since it is paradoxical for it not too.


FREEDO wrote:
all things have a cause.

mattrodstrom wrote:
Is this system caused??

Freedo wrote:
"NO"

There's your Paradox right there :)

That's not a paradox. That's a contradiction.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/16/2010 3:27:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/16/2010 2:26:41 PM, Immortal wrote:
At 3/16/2010 2:21:50 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:

There's your Paradox right there :)

That's not a paradox. That's a contradiction.

His statements contradict.

If the two things were both true (which he is asserting)...

It would be a paradox. (no??)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/16/2010 3:54:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Contradiction
+opposition between two conflicting forces or ideas
+(logic) a statement that is necessarily false; "the statement `he is brave and he is not brave' is a contradiction"
+the speech act of contradicting someone; "he spoke as if he thought his claims were immune to contradiction"

Paradox
one statement that contradicts itself. Even if true, it must be false.
mmm... your right. He didn't give a 'Paradox' in that sense...

Though I'm pretty sure his statements were "Paradoxical" :)

And that if they were both true that "reality" would be so.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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3/16/2010 4:06:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/16/2010 4:03:02 PM, Immortal wrote:
"All things must have a cause."

I think that it may be an axiom but I'm not sure.

Nope, presupposes 'things existing' for a start. :P
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/16/2010 5:50:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/16/2010 1:34:14 PM, Immortal wrote:
I think this is better for the religion section since this ties in with the cosmological argument.

Otherwise, what causes virtual particles?

http://science.jrank.org...

;)

I think the standard response is that virtual particles are "caused" by the quantum fields.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Immortal
Posts: 350
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3/17/2010 9:31:25 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/16/2010 3:45:18 PM, Immortal wrote:
Alright then.

P.S. What's a contradiction and what's a paradox?

"The word paradox is often used interchangeably with contradiction."

http://en.wikipedia.org...
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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3/17/2010 11:14:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/17/2010 9:31:25 AM, Immortal wrote:
At 3/16/2010 3:45:18 PM, Immortal wrote:
Alright then.

P.S. What's a contradiction and what's a paradox?

"The word paradox is often used interchangeably with contradiction."

A paradox is a looping contradiction: if true then false, if false then true. Not all contradictions are a paradox however.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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3/18/2010 5:25:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/16/2010 11:34:56 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 3/16/2010 10:59:43 AM, tkubok wrote:
There are two ways of looking at this.

Either Freedo's right.

Or

A some sort of God did it that at least started the initial effects that are causes for everything else.

Glad to know what it takes to convert you to a theist Tkbok ;)

No no, you could never prove that it is God. If it were a transcendent universe-creating factory, for example, that exists for eternity, it wouldnt be God that created this universe.

Nice try though.
CrappyDebater
Posts: 334
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3/18/2010 7:34:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/18/2010 5:25:52 AM, tkubok wrote:
At 3/16/2010 11:34:56 AM, Marauder wrote:
At 3/16/2010 10:59:43 AM, tkubok wrote:
There are two ways of looking at this.

Either Freedo's right.

Or

A some sort of God did it that at least started the initial effects that are causes for everything else.

Glad to know what it takes to convert you to a theist Tkbok ;)

No no, you could never prove that it is God. If it were a transcendent universe-creating factory, for example, that exists for eternity, it wouldnt be God that created this universe.

Nice try though.

Whos the boss of the factory? =)
Immortal
Posts: 350
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3/18/2010 7:45:15 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
1. All things have a cause.
2. The cause and effect system does not have a cause.

Contradiction.

1. All things that begin to exist has a cause.
2. The cause and effect system did not begin to exist.
3. Therefore, it has no cause.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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3/18/2010 7:53:27 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/18/2010 7:45:15 AM, Immortal wrote:
1. All things have a cause.
2. The cause and effect system does not have a cause.

Contradiction.

Problem. You are equivocating on 'thing'. :P A thing that acts in a causal manner is not the same as the description of it doing so.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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3/18/2010 7:56:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/18/2010 7:45:15 AM, Immortal wrote:
1. All things have a cause.
2. The cause and effect system does not have a cause.

Contradiction.

naw, to say so is committing the composition fallacy :P
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/18/2010 7:58:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/18/2010 7:53:27 AM, Puck wrote:
At 3/18/2010 7:45:15 AM, Immortal wrote:
1. All things have a cause.
2. The cause and effect system does not have a cause.

Contradiction.

Problem. You are equivocating on 'thing'. :P A thing that acts in a causal manner is not the same as the description of it doing so.

is a collection of things not a thing in itself??
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Immortal
Posts: 350
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3/18/2010 7:59:21 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/18/2010 7:53:27 AM, Puck wrote:
At 3/18/2010 7:45:15 AM, Immortal wrote:
1. All things have a cause.
2. The cause and effect system does not have a cause.

Contradiction.

Problem. You are equivocating on 'thing'. :P A thing that acts in a causal manner is not the same as the description of it doing so.

So are you saying that the cause and effect system has a cause?
Immortal
Posts: 350
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3/18/2010 7:59:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/18/2010 7:56:35 AM, belle wrote:
At 3/18/2010 7:45:15 AM, Immortal wrote:
1. All things have a cause.
2. The cause and effect system does not have a cause.

Contradiction.

naw, to say so is committing the composition fallacy :P

How so?
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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3/18/2010 8:04:29 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/18/2010 7:58:45 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/18/2010 7:53:27 AM, Puck wrote:
At 3/18/2010 7:45:15 AM, Immortal wrote:
1. All things have a cause.
2. The cause and effect system does not have a cause.

Contradiction.

Problem. You are equivocating on 'thing'. :P A thing that acts in a causal manner is not the same as the description of it doing so.

is a collection of things not a thing in itself??

Depends what you are talking about. A collection if ideas has no more external existence than one does. An object is existent, saying 'I like that object' isn't existent in the same context.