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If a tree falls in a forest...

mattrodstrom
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3/20/2010 12:11:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 12:08:43 PM, Immortal wrote:
silly question

you mean like "soundwaves". yes.

you mean like is it heard by someone. No.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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3/20/2010 12:12:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 12:08:43 PM, Immortal wrote:
If a tree falls in a forest but no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

Wait... didn't I just say that in a different context on another thread?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
PoeJoe
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3/20/2010 12:14:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The question is internally contradictory. If a tree falls in the forest and no one's around to hear it, then how did you know that the tree had fallen… in the first place? I mean, surely someone had to be there to know that the tree had fallen, or else you wouldn't have asked the question . And, moreover, how did you know that no one was around to hear it? For you to know that no one was around to hear it, you would have to have been there to notice that no one was around to hear the tree falling, in which case, you were there to hear the three falling, thereby contradicting the supposition that no one was around to hear it. So, in other words, the only way to know if a tree had fallen in the forest, and the only way to know if no one was around to hear the tree falling, would be to have been there to witness the tree falling, which is contradictory to the original premise.

It would be like saying, Tiger Woods slept with more than ten other women other than his wife, and all of the involved parties are still virgins.

The problem with the fallen tree question is not whether the tree made a sound or not--of course it did. The problem with the fallen tree question is the supposition that no one was around to hear it. Again, how would you be able to know something like that?
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Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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3/20/2010 12:14:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
But anyway no, it merely vibrates the air, if there is no ear to interpret it as sound then it makes no sound.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Immortal
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3/20/2010 12:15:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 12:11:51 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:08:43 PM, Immortal wrote:
silly question

you mean like "soundwaves". yes.

you mean like is it heard by someone. No.

What's your definition of sound then? Which answer do you choose?
Immortal
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3/20/2010 12:16:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 12:12:12 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:08:43 PM, Immortal wrote:
If a tree falls in a forest but no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

Wait... didn't I just say that in a different context on another thread?

Yes, in the holographic universe thread. I don't understand the holographic universe theory enough though to answer your question.

http://www.debate.org...
Kinesis
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3/20/2010 12:16:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 12:14:54 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
But anyway no, it merely vibrates the air, if there is no ear to interpret it as sound then it makes no sound.

I like that answer.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/20/2010 12:18:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 12:14:18 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
The fallen tree question is not whether the tree made a sound or not--of course it did. The problem with the fallen tree question is the supposition that no one was around to hear it. Again, how would you be able to know something like that?

It's a hypothetical, dude. Geez.
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/20/2010 12:19:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 12:15:01 PM, Immortal wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:11:51 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:08:43 PM, Immortal wrote:
silly question

you mean like "soundwaves". yes.

you mean like is it heard by someone. No.

What's your definition of sound then? Which answer do you choose?

Sound, I assume to be soundwaves.

Ultimately... the only way I come to know this stuff is through experience, and if you ask me If I KNOW that that experience IS of SOUNDWAVES I would say no not really... I just assume it is because doing so appears to be useful.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
nickthengineer
Posts: 251
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3/20/2010 12:44:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 12:16:50 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:14:54 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
But anyway no, it merely vibrates the air, if there is no ear to interpret it as sound then it makes no sound.

I like that answer.

Human ears aren't the only things that pick up sound waves. Even rocks absorb sound waves. So presuming there was a rock in the forest when the tree fell, then the rock "heard" the tree fall (received the sound waves it emitted), and thus the tree falling made a sound.
I evolved from stupid. (http://www.debate.org...)
PoeJoe
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3/20/2010 12:55:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 12:18:52 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:14:18 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
The fallen tree question is not whether the tree made a sound or not--of course it did. The problem with the fallen tree question is the supposition that no one was around to hear it. Again, how would you be able to know something like that?

It's a hypothetical, dude. Geez.

Here's a hypothetical: a guy named Bob killed me, but I am still alive.

Am I alive?

Such a question is impossible--not "impossible" as in "extremely unlikely," but "impossible" as in "not in any way consistent with the observable world."
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wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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3/20/2010 12:58:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
A sound is the result of the human ear. Vibrations are made, but no sound.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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3/20/2010 1:00:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 12:44:40 PM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:16:50 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:14:54 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
But anyway no, it merely vibrates the air, if there is no ear to interpret it as sound then it makes no sound.

I like that answer.

Human ears aren't the only things that pick up sound waves. Even rocks absorb sound waves. So presuming there was a rock in the forest when the tree fell, then the rock "heard" the tree fall (received the sound waves it emitted), and thus the tree falling made a sound.

What a bizarre use of the word 'hear'.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/20/2010 1:08:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 12:55:42 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:18:52 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:14:18 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
The fallen tree question is not whether the tree made a sound or not--of course it did. The problem with the fallen tree question is the supposition that no one was around to hear it. Again, how would you be able to know something like that?

It's a hypothetical, dude. Geez.

Here's a hypothetical: a guy named Bob killed me, but I am still alive.

Am I alive?

Such a question is impossible--not "impossible" as in "extremely unlikely," but "impossible" as in "not in any way consistent with the observable world."

Except that Immortal's question isn't an impossibility all you're doing is asking how do you know that no one around is to hear it? It's not an impossibility that no one be around to hear the tree fall.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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3/20/2010 1:10:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 12:55:42 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
Here's a hypothetical: a guy named Bob killed me, but I am still alive.

Am I alive?

Such a question is impossible--not "impossible" as in "extremely unlikely," but "impossible" as in "not in any way consistent with the observable world."

Lol. Your "hypothetical" could never happen. The hypothetical posed in this thread could happen though. There are, indeed, trees that have fell in forests yet no one was around to hear or see it. Also, there are video cameras that can see the tree falling, yet have no audio.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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3/20/2010 1:13:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 12:19:42 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:15:01 PM, Immortal wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:11:51 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:08:43 PM, Immortal wrote:
silly question

you mean like "soundwaves". yes.

you mean like is it heard by someone. No.

What's your definition of sound then? Which answer do you choose?

Sound, I assume to be soundwaves.

Ultimately... the only way I come to know this stuff is through experience, and if you ask me If I KNOW that that experience IS of SOUNDWAVES I would say no not really... I just assume it is because doing so appears to be useful.

you need to cut back on the dewey dude. lol

anyways i would say "sound" is what people experience when they hear something and "sound waves" are the physical phenomenon that cause those sensations. so no, it does not make a sound.

i would also add that the same is not true of light since sound is a perturbation in a medium whereas light waves basically propagate themselves.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Immortal
Posts: 350
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3/20/2010 1:37:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
What is "sound"? How do you precisely define "sound"? If sound is something that you can only hear and perceive through your ears, then sound is simply the electrical signals acting as waves that are interpreted by your brain through your ears.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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3/20/2010 1:41:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 1:37:05 PM, Immortal wrote:
What is "sound"? How do you precisely define "sound"? If sound is something that you can only hear and perceive through your ears, then sound is simply the electrical signals acting as waves that are interpreted by your brain through your ears.

sure why not? sound is what the brain does when exposed to sound waves :P
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/20/2010 2:36:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 12:44:40 PM, nickthengineer wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:16:50 PM, Kinesis wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:14:54 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
But anyway no, it merely vibrates the air, if there is no ear to interpret it as sound then it makes no sound.

I like that answer.

Human ears aren't the only things that pick up sound waves. Even rocks absorb sound waves. So presuming there was a rock in the forest when the tree fell,
then the rock "heard" the tree fall (received the sound waves it emitted),
LOL NO. :(

Rocks don't have eardrums, a brain, or whatnot to "hear" anything.

and thus the tree falling made a sound.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
PoeJoe
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3/20/2010 2:37:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 1:08:29 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:55:42 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:18:52 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:14:18 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
The fallen tree question is not whether the tree made a sound or not--of course it did. The problem with the fallen tree question is the supposition that no one was around to hear it. Again, how would you be able to know something like that?

It's a hypothetical, dude. Geez.

Here's a hypothetical: a guy named Bob killed me, but I am still alive.

Am I alive?

Such a question is impossible--not "impossible" as in "extremely unlikely," but "impossible" as in "not in any way consistent with the observable world."

Except that Immortal's question isn't an impossibility all you're doing is asking how do you know that no one around is to hear it?

If "sound" is defined as "electrical signals in the air that go through your ears and that your brain then interprets" (as seems to be the consensus in this thread so far), then there is a contradiction.

On one hand, a tree has fallen that no one was around to hear, and thus makes no sound. But that makes no sense. To say that a tree has fallen that no one was around to hear is to say that someone was there to hear the tree falling.
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/20/2010 2:39:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 1:13:12 PM, belle wrote:

Ultimately... the only way I come to know this stuff is through experience, and if you ask me If I KNOW that that experience IS of SOUNDWAVES I would say no not really... I just assume it is because doing so appears to be useful.

you need to cut back on the dewey dude. lol

This is why I love Philosophy :)

A whole bunch of people say stuff that I think... They just say it better :)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Xer
Posts: 7,776
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3/20/2010 2:40:41 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 2:37:22 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
To say that a tree has fallen that no one was around to hear is to say that someone was there to hear the tree falling.

Or a deaf person could have seen the tree fall. Or a video camera without audio could have seen the tree fall. Or we are just assuming that trees fall all the time without people hearing or seeing them.
mattrodstrom
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3/20/2010 2:43:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 1:13:12 PM, belle wrote:

i would also add that the same is not true of light since sound is a perturbation in a medium whereas light waves basically propagate themselves.

mmm.. so if a fire starts in a room and noone sees it it doesn't give off light???

umm, no I would think it would.. that's something Fires do... Propogate electromagnetic waves...heat.. and light.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/20/2010 2:45:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 2:37:22 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
At 3/20/2010 1:08:29 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:55:42 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:18:52 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/20/2010 12:14:18 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
The fallen tree question is not whether the tree made a sound or not--of course it did. The problem with the fallen tree question is the supposition that no one was around to hear it. Again, how would you be able to know something like that?

It's a hypothetical, dude. Geez.

Here's a hypothetical: a guy named Bob killed me, but I am still alive.

Am I alive?

Such a question is impossible--not "impossible" as in "extremely unlikely," but "impossible" as in "not in any way consistent with the observable world."

Except that Immortal's question isn't an impossibility all you're doing is asking how do you know that no one around is to hear it?

If "sound" is defined as "electrical signals in the air that go through your ears and that your brain then interprets"

"Sound" is best defined as percussion waves in a physical medium... not electrical signals..

The experience of sound is a mental phenomenon

(as seems to be the consensus in this thread so far), then there is a contradiction.

On one hand, a tree has fallen that no one was around to hear, and thus makes no sound. But that makes no sense. To say that a tree has fallen that no one was around to hear is to say that someone was there to hear the tree falling.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
PoeJoe
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3/20/2010 2:48:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 2:40:41 PM, Nags wrote:
At 3/20/2010 2:37:22 PM, PoeJoe wrote:
To say that a tree has fallen that no one was around to hear is to say that someone was there to hear the tree falling.

Or a deaf person could have seen the tree fall. Or a video camera without audio could have seen the tree fall. Or we are just assuming that trees fall all the time without people hearing or seeing them.

In your three examples, sound does not happen, at least not using the definition that seems to be the consensus on this thread: "electrical signals in the air that go through your ears and that your brain then interprets."

This specific definition of sound makes the fallen tree question contradictory: if no one was there to hear the tree falling, then it did not make a sound. But to know that the tree had fallen and made a sound, the tree makes a sound.

Thus, the question is internally contradictory in that it assumes no one was there to hear the tree falling.
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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3/20/2010 2:51:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/20/2010 2:46:05 PM, theLwerd wrote:
This whole thread fails, so lol @ the long explanations.

The answer is no. Period.

lol. No.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."