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A question on time

jc496
Posts: 6
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3/30/2010 7:21:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I have a question, and I want to know what your opinions are. According to the first law of thermodynamics, energy can neither be created or destroyed through natural processes. I'm under the impression that the big bang and big bounce theories say that everything always was, and will always be. In everyday life, we can see time in quantities(i.e, hours, minutes). How can we say that something always was, without treating infinity as a number, or a quantity of time?
collegekitchen8
Posts: 100
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3/30/2010 8:17:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
time is a theoretical concept invented by the rational being. Without rational creatures time ceases to exist.
: At 3/30/2010 12:57:51 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
: The universe is simple, It all makes sense given laws like gravity and stuff.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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3/30/2010 8:18:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/30/2010 7:21:13 PM, jc496 wrote:
I have a question, and I want to know what your opinions are. According to the first law of thermodynamics, energy can neither be created or destroyed through natural processes. I'm under the impression that the big bang and big bounce theories say that everything always was, and will always be. In everyday life, we can see time in quantities(i.e, hours, minutes). How can we say that something always was, without treating infinity as a number, or a quantity of time?

1. Time is nonsensical to talk about before the big bang, it for all intent and purposes 'starts' at the big bang.

2. Time was in place whereupon the big bang was an event within it.

And infinity can't be quantified by definition, we can't 'count to' it. Demarcations such as minutes, are elements we add to to measure change, without us such change still occurs.

Also big bounce is largely refuted, at least for the current Universe as it stands, since we are not in a Universe where collapse is going to occur.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/30/2010 8:19:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/30/2010 8:17:13 PM, collegekitchen8 wrote:
time is a theoretical concept invented by the rational being. Without rational creatures time ceases to exist.

Exactly. Time doesn't exist. The Universe is eternal and our concept of time makes people want to conclude that infinity isn't possible.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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3/30/2010 8:20:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/30/2010 8:17:13 PM, collegekitchen8 wrote:
time is a theoretical concept invented by the rational being. Without rational creatures time ceases to exist.

Not so. Time is fundamental aspect of the Universe itself. See relativity - it is in essence a geometric dimension.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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3/30/2010 8:31:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/30/2010 8:19:08 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:17:13 PM, collegekitchen8 wrote:
time is a theoretical concept invented by the rational being. Without rational creatures time ceases to exist.

Exactly. Time doesn't exist. The Universe is eternal and our concept of time makes people want to conclude that infinity isn't possible.

By that logic, nothing happened billions of years ago, because there were no rational beings.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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3/30/2010 8:38:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/30/2010 8:31:55 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:19:08 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:17:13 PM, collegekitchen8 wrote:
time is a theoretical concept invented by the rational being. Without rational creatures time ceases to exist.

Exactly. Time doesn't exist. The Universe is eternal and our concept of time makes people want to conclude that infinity isn't possible.

By that logic, nothing happened billions of years ago, because there were no rational beings.

No, that is collegekitchens logic, not mine. I simply claim that the Universe is eternal regardless of human existence.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/30/2010 8:42:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/30/2010 8:31:55 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:19:08 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:17:13 PM, collegekitchen8 wrote:
time is a theoretical concept invented by the rational being. Without rational creatures time ceases to exist.

Exactly. Time doesn't exist. The Universe is eternal and our concept of time makes people want to conclude that infinity isn't possible.

By that logic, nothing happened billions of years ago, because there were no rational beings.

What? You don't count God as a rational being?
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belle
Posts: 4,113
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3/30/2010 8:53:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/30/2010 8:42:39 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:31:55 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:19:08 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:17:13 PM, collegekitchen8 wrote:
time is a theoretical concept invented by the rational being. Without rational creatures time ceases to exist.

Exactly. Time doesn't exist. The Universe is eternal and our concept of time makes people want to conclude that infinity isn't possible.

By that logic, nothing happened billions of years ago, because there were no rational beings.

What? You don't count God as a rational being?

lol. separate debate, doncha think?
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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3/30/2010 8:59:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/30/2010 8:53:42 PM, belle wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:42:39 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:31:55 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:19:08 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:17:13 PM, collegekitchen8 wrote:
time is a theoretical concept invented by the rational being. Without rational creatures time ceases to exist.

Exactly. Time doesn't exist. The Universe is eternal and our concept of time makes people want to conclude that infinity isn't possible.

By that logic, nothing happened billions of years ago, because there were no rational beings.

What? You don't count God as a rational being?

lol. separate debate, doncha think?

Hahha, well I wouldn't have of brought it up if I didn't know he was Christian.

But good point. :p
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
homework
Posts: 31
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4/6/2010 12:34:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/30/2010 8:59:04 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:53:42 PM, belle wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:42:39 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:31:55 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:19:08 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:17:13 PM, collegekitchen8 wrote:
time is a theoretical concept invented by the rational being. Without rational creatures time ceases to exist.

Exactly. Time doesn't exist. The Universe is eternal and our concept of time makes people want to conclude that infinity isn't possible.

By that logic, nothing happened billions of years ago, because there were no rational beings.

What? You don't count God as a rational being?

lol. separate debate, doncha think?

Hahha, well I wouldn't have of brought it up if I didn't know he was Christian.

But good point. :p

It would be more accurate to say that, without rational beings, any intelligible concept of time would cease to exist. However, the phenomenon that we label "time" itself would still exist. There is a difference between
1 - what can be said ABOUT a world without rational beings
(that time would continue to go on without us)
2 - and what can be said IN a world without rational beings
(absolutely nothing intelligible)

To say that time exists only as long as rational beings exist would be to confuse 2 with 1.
Psychologists think they're experimental psychologists
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Metamathematicians think they're philosophers
Philosophers think they're Gods
homework
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4/6/2010 12:47:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
testing sig
Psychologists think they're experimental psychologists
Experimental psychologists think they're biologists
Biologists think they're biochemists
Biochemists think they're chemists
Chemists think they're physical chemists
Physical chemists think they're physicists
Physicists think they're theoretical physicists
Theoretical physicists think they're mathematicians
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Metamathematicians think they're philosophers
Philosophers think they're Gods
homework
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4/6/2010 12:48:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
test sig again
Psychologists think they're experimental psychologists
Experimental psychologists think they're biologists
Biologists think they're biochemists
Biochemists think they're chemists
Chemists think they're physical chemists
Physical chemists think they're physicists
Physicists think they're theoretical physicists
Theoretical physicists think they're mathematicians
Mathematicians think they're metamathematicians
Metamathematicians think they're philosophers
Philosophers think they're Gods
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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4/6/2010 12:49:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Sig doesn't need to be tested. You press "review" and it saves.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

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mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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4/10/2010 8:50:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/30/2010 8:42:39 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:31:55 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:19:08 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:17:13 PM, collegekitchen8 wrote:
time is a theoretical concept invented by the rational being. Without rational creatures time ceases to exist.

Exactly. Time doesn't exist. The Universe is eternal and our concept of time makes people want to conclude that infinity isn't possible.

By that logic, nothing happened billions of years ago, because there were no rational beings.

What? You don't count God as a rational being?

I know GeoLaure8 doesn't, and he's the one I'm arguing against. I was using his own logic in his own shoes.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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4/10/2010 9:01:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Nothing did happen a billion years ago. When you break down a statement into its constituent ideas, you will begin to see how it is that time doesn't actually exist.

The only thing measurable, is the way the universe is arranged RIGHT NOW. Existence is defined by the current, particular arrangement of mass and energy in the universe.

Rational beings with the ability to sense the environment exhibit a lag-time, much like the freeze frame of a bad grainy camera. We don't see the universe and its workings in totality, as it happens. We take in data, process it, and have it mean something.

As such, we have something called "memory", which is basically a way to sort through the flawed nature of our data-gathering process. Like a cardboard box where you have to store thousands of photographs in order to get a decent picture of what occurred before your eyes.

In short, memory is nothing but a way to deal with the fact that the way we experience the universe, is flawed.

Take away this flaw, and take away the memory, take away the rational being, and what do you have?

You don't have yesterday, or last year. You have simply the present. There is no such thing as "the way the universe was before".

So no, nothing really HAPPENED a billion years ago. What happened a billion years ago is the same thing that is happening now. It's all ONE occurrence, ONE action.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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4/10/2010 9:08:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I wouldn't call memory a flaw. It would probably be rather horrible not to have memory. You wouldn't be able to remember where you left your hunting trap, or what food gave you a stomachache, or who your wife is.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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4/10/2010 9:34:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 9:01:34 AM, Kleptin wrote:
You don't have yesterday, or last year. You have simply the present. There is no such thing as "the way the universe was before".

So no, nothing really HAPPENED a billion years ago. What happened a billion years ago is the same thing that is happening now. It's all ONE occurrence, ONE action.

ehhhhhh if it makes sense to say "something happened a billion lightyears from here" (which it does, we look at stuff that far in our telescopes) why wouldn't it make sense to say "something happened a billion years ago"? time being the fourth dimension and all...
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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4/10/2010 9:54:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/6/2010 12:34:23 AM, homework wrote:

It would be more accurate to say that, without rational beings, any intelligible concept of time would cease to exist. However, the phenomenon that we label "time" itself would still exist. There is a difference between
1 - what can be said ABOUT a world without rational beings
(that time would continue to go on without us)
Subjective Fact.
2 - and what can be said IN a world without rational beings
(absolutely nothing intelligible)
Objective Fact.

To say that time exists only as long as rational beings exist would be to confuse 2 with 1.

You noticed without studing it, congrtz. That's rare.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
PoeJoe
Posts: 3,822
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4/10/2010 10:26:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/30/2010 8:59:04 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:53:42 PM, belle wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:42:39 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:31:55 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:19:08 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:17:13 PM, collegekitchen8 wrote:
time is a theoretical concept invented by the rational being. Without rational creatures time ceases to exist.

Exactly. Time doesn't exist. The Universe is eternal and our concept of time makes people want to conclude that infinity isn't possible.

By that logic, nothing happened billions of years ago, because there were no rational beings.

What? You don't count God as a rational being?

lol. separate debate, doncha think?

Hahha, well I wouldn't have of brought it up if I didn't know he was Christian.

But good point. :p

Well, even if you are a Christian you don't believe God is rational.

God is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, etc., and rationality is a means by which to analyze the world. God doesn't analyze the word, because he knows and is EVERYTHING. Therefore, he isn't rational.
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lastrequest691
Posts: 339
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4/10/2010 11:21:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Most people think Time is like a river, that flows swift and sure in one direction. They are wrong

Quote by Prince
"That song was absolutely waste of talent; you sounded like a wounded animal and who told you to play the guitar by yourself." Simon Cowell
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/10/2010 11:23:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 3/30/2010 8:20:32 PM, Puck wrote:
At 3/30/2010 8:17:13 PM, collegekitchen8 wrote:
time is a theoretical concept invented by the rational being. Without rational creatures time ceases to exist.

Not so. Time is fundamental aspect of the Universe itself. See relativity - it is in essence a geometric dimension.

Time is a concept.

one which is built into our understanding of the universe.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
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4/10/2010 11:25:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 10:26:45 AM, PoeJoe wrote:

Well, even if you are a Christian you don't believe God is rational.

God is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, etc., and rationality is a means by which to analyze the world. God doesn't analyze the word, because he knows and is EVERYTHING. Therefore, he isn't rational.

...Who told you that Christians believe God is everything?
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/10/2010 11:45:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 11:25:57 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/10/2010 10:26:45 AM, PoeJoe wrote:

Well, even if you are a Christian you don't believe God is rational.

God is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, etc., and rationality is a means by which to analyze the world. God doesn't analyze the word, because he knows and is EVERYTHING. Therefore, he isn't rational.

...Who told you that Christians believe God is everything?

Platonic christian philosophers that do.

Augustine, plotinus, (muslim; but influential) Averroes
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
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4/10/2010 11:51:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 11:45:56 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/10/2010 11:25:57 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/10/2010 10:26:45 AM, PoeJoe wrote:

Well, even if you are a Christian you don't believe God is rational.

God is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, etc., and rationality is a means by which to analyze the world. God doesn't analyze the word, because he knows and is EVERYTHING. Therefore, he isn't rational.

...Who told you that Christians believe God is everything?

Platonic christian philosophers that do.

Augustine, plotinus, (muslim; but influential) Averroes

No, they didn't.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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4/10/2010 12:00:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 9:08:10 AM, mongeese wrote:
I wouldn't call memory a flaw. It would probably be rather horrible not to have memory. You wouldn't be able to remember where you left your hunting trap, or what food gave you a stomachache, or who your wife is.

Memory isn't a flaw. It is a rerouted method of trying to alleviate the flaw of how we perceive the universe. We don't sense the universe, we sense side effects that we use to define the universe. When I see a blade of grass, I am only seeing the light reflected from it, I don't actually see or know the grass. Memory and time only developed as compensatory mechanisms.

At 4/10/2010 9:34:00 AM, belle wrote:
ehhhhhh if it makes sense to say "something happened a billion lightyears from here" (which it does, we look at stuff that far in our telescopes) why wouldn't it make sense to say "something happened a billion years ago"? time being the fourth dimension and all...

Because of the factor of light being the medium with which we received that information. The only way you can experience or calculate time, is indirectly. Time derives as a mistake, a side effect of the way we understand the universe.

We have this illusion that the universe exists in frames of instances, so we compare our memory of the light from a billion lightyears away, to the light reaching us here. From that illusion comes the invalid measurement of 1 billion years.

If we did not view the universe as discrete freeze-frames of existence (which it isn't, not if there are no rational beings in existence) then time would not exist. Neither would the concept of a light-year.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
mattrodstrom
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4/10/2010 12:05:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 11:51:20 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
No, they didn't.

Averroes: I meant Avicenna... my bad. God is necessary, world is necessary, everything is necessary, everything is part of god.

Plotinus: All is emanations from "the one", "the good", God.

Augustine: God is "the good", there is no evil. People either turn towards, and follow the good, or don't (choosing "lower goods" which are basically limited individual bits of "the good" and essentially turn towards non-existence. The amount You EXIST is dependent upon how much you embrace god. If one were to fully distance themselves from God, they simply wouldn't exist. GOD=existence.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
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4/10/2010 12:17:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 12:05:15 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
Augustine: God is "the good", there is no evil. People either turn towards, and follow the good, or don't (choosing "lower goods" which are basically limited individual bits of "the good" and essentially turn towards non-existence. The amount You EXIST is dependent upon how much you embrace god. If one were to fully distance themselves from God, they simply wouldn't exist. GOD=existence.

Free will, rationality, matter, (Basically all things that make us up) ARE lower goods. These lower goods Exist only in that they are a bits of that 'greater good', they exist inasmuch as they're a part of God.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
PoeJoe
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4/10/2010 12:21:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/10/2010 11:25:57 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/10/2010 10:26:45 AM, PoeJoe wrote:

Well, even if you are a Christian you don't believe God is rational.

God is omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, etc., and rationality is a means by which to analyze the world. God doesn't analyze the word, because he knows and is EVERYTHING. Therefore, he isn't rational.

...Who told you that Christians believe God is everything?

Okay.

You still believe God is omniscient, right?

If so, you can't believe God is rational. To be rational you have to have the ability to analyze. God doesn't analyze, because he's omniscient.
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