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Consciousness

FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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4/15/2010 11:18:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
What is consciousness? What makes it so?
Don't just say electrical and chemical reactions in your brain, be more specific.
Why doesn't(or does) the internet have a consciousness? It seems to process a lot of information and have quite a large memory.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
belle
Posts: 4,113
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4/15/2010 11:21:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 11:18:26 PM, FREEDO wrote:
What is consciousness? What makes it so?
Don't just say electrical and chemical reactions in your brain, be more specific.
Why doesn't(or does) the internet have a consciousness? It seems to process a lot of information and have quite a large memory.

if i could be specific in explaining the nature of consciousness i would not be wasting my time on ddo, let me tell you....
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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4/15/2010 11:22:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Time for you to watch some Ghost in the Shell.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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4/16/2010 2:22:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 11:18:26 PM, FREEDO wrote:

Why doesn't(or does) the internet have a consciousness? It seems to process a lot of information and have quite a large memory.

It is not however aware. Otherwise we'd be considering calculators as conscious long before the internet came into consideration. Also "the internet" is a bit of a misnomer in that sense in that it is not a discrete entity in itself, but multiple computers that have the option of passing and receiving information.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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4/16/2010 2:22:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/15/2010 11:22:38 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
Time for you to watch some Ghost in the Shell.

Stop trying to confuse the boy. :P
lastrequest691
Posts: 339
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4/16/2010 7:01:19 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Consciousness is thought to be a state of mind when one is aware but I do not agree with it. It is just the mind itself. The mind cannot be aware of itself so we will never know the true meaning of conciousness.

It is mind because all those instinct related to Conscience is about yourself. If it were a state of mind then I would be un-concious at times but since I am always being me so it is wrong to say that it is a state of mind.

Sub-Conciousness is the state of mind where it takes you to places inside your own mind. There is a huge difference between Conciousness and Sub-conciousness.

At Sub-Concious level you are not aware of yourself- it only takes place sometimes and you are always aware of your sub-concious state but when you are concious it is always you.

Concious -It's only your mind
Sub-Concious- It's the state of your mind
"That song was absolutely waste of talent; you sounded like a wounded animal and who told you to play the guitar by yourself." Simon Cowell
Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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4/18/2010 3:06:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 1:00:41 AM, wonderwoman wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

Oh no you le didn't.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/18/2010 8:48:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 2:56:33 AM, Puck wrote:
At 4/18/2010 1:00:41 AM, wonderwoman wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

( Surely you don't advocate that silliness?

the only one "certain to exist", well I think that's rather obvious...

lol

but it certainly very much seems as though there're other people.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/18/2010 8:55:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think "Knowledge" can be justified though...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
wjmelements
Posts: 8,206
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4/18/2010 9:13:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 8:48:03 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
but it certainly very much seems as though there're other people.

They're consciousnesses are independent of mine, so they are probably equal to mine; however, that doesn't mean that the universe exists or that our consciences aren't contained within the same mind.

There could be one mind that simulates the entire universe and all the beings inside of it, and my consciousness, as all others', could just be a partition of that mind.
in the blink of an eye you finally see the light
wonderwoman
Posts: 744
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4/18/2010 10:35:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 2:56:33 AM, Puck wrote:
At 4/18/2010 1:00:41 AM, wonderwoman wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

( Surely you don't advocate that silliness?

aww you're a non believer lol
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/18/2010 10:49:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Consciousness is a field. It is not a product of the brain because a memory cannot be pinpointed to a specific brain cell.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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4/18/2010 10:52:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 10:49:46 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Consciousness is a field. It is not a product of the brain because a memory cannot be pinpointed to a specific brain cell.

Aren't consciousness and memory different though possibly overlapping concepts? And though memory many not be specific to specific brain cell it is held to be specific to a certain region of the brain isn't it?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
DevinKing
Posts: 206
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4/18/2010 2:37:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 10:49:46 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Consciousness is a field. It is not a product of the brain because a memory cannot be pinpointed to a specific brain cell.

--That is a non-sequintur. You said the equivilent of, "Computers don't hold memory because you can't pinpoint the atom that holds the memory."

--Memory, along with vitualy every other brain process, is a result of the combined effects of a multitude of cells acting together. Just like the many transistors in a microchip... hmmm.

--I am also interested in your sources for the whole "consiousness is a field" thing.
After demonstrating his existence with complete certainty with the proposition "I think, therefore I am", Descartes walks into a bar, sitting next to a gorgeous priest. The priest asks Descartes, "Would you like a drink?" Descartes responds, "I think not," and then proceeds to vanish in a puff of illogic.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/18/2010 3:05:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 2:37:33 PM, DevinKing wrote:
At 4/18/2010 10:49:46 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Consciousness is a field. It is not a product of the brain because a memory cannot be pinpointed to a specific brain cell.

--That is a non-sequintur. You said the equivilent of, "Computers don't hold memory because you can't pinpoint the atom that holds the memory."

--Memory, along with vitualy every other brain process, is a result of the combined effects of a multitude of cells acting together. Just like the many transistors in a microchip... hmmm.

--I am also interested in your sources for the whole "consiousness is a field" thing.

Ok, memory or thought. They cannot be pinpointed at all. You can look to which part of the brain, processes certain things, but our consciousness or individual thoughts aren't manifested from the brain.

Look into the salamandar experiments where brain was diced and entirely minced and rearranged; and the remains were put back in the salamanders head and he remembered the path of a maze that he previously went through.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/18/2010 3:47:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 9:13:48 AM, wjmelements wrote:
At 4/18/2010 8:48:03 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
but it certainly very much seems as though there're other people.

They're consciousnesses are independent of mine, so they are probably equal to mine; however, that doesn't mean that the universe exists or that our consciences aren't contained within the same mind.

There could be one mind that simulates the entire universe and all the beings inside of it, and my consciousness, as all others', could just be a partition of that mind.

lots of things could be...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/18/2010 3:49:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 10:49:46 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Consciousness is a field. It is not a product of the brain because a memory cannot be pinpointed to a specific brain cell.

what?

a field??? what do you mean?

and why can't it be a vast complicated system of cells working together which produce memories, and other aspects of consciousness???
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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4/18/2010 4:40:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 3:05:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:

Ok, memory or thought. They cannot be pinpointed at all. You can look to which part of the brain, processes certain things, but our consciousness or individual thoughts aren't manifested from the brain.

What? Just like region of a brain is responsible for sight but not a single point so we are really blind?
DevinKing
Posts: 206
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4/18/2010 6:35:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 3:05:20 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Ok, memory or thought. They cannot be pinpointed at all. You can look to which part of the brain, processes certain things, but our consciousness or individual thoughts aren't manifested from the brain.

Look into the salamandar experiments where brain was diced and entirely minced and rearranged; and the remains were put back in the salamanders head and he remembered the path of a maze that he previously went through.

--Alright then. Let's do a little thought experiment to show how consiousness is manifested in the brain: Imagine that a person is sitting in a chair. Then imagine that as he/she is calmly contemplating his/her own role in this vast universe, someone injects into them a large dose of a hallucinogenic drug. Suddenly, their consiousness is altered directly by altering their brain.

--Also, altering specific parts of the brain produces specific results. And, we can measure them. See below:

http://www.sciencedaily.com...
After demonstrating his existence with complete certainty with the proposition "I think, therefore I am", Descartes walks into a bar, sitting next to a gorgeous priest. The priest asks Descartes, "Would you like a drink?" Descartes responds, "I think not," and then proceeds to vanish in a puff of illogic.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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4/18/2010 6:56:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 6:35:57 PM, DevinKing wrote:
--Alright then. Let's do a little thought experiment to show how consiousness is manifested in the brain: Imagine that a person is sitting in a chair. Then imagine that as he/she is calmly contemplating his/her own role in this vast universe, someone injects into them a large dose of a hallucinogenic drug. Suddenly, their consiousness is altered directly by altering their brain.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/18/2010 6:58:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 6:56:53 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/18/2010 6:35:57 PM, DevinKing wrote:
--Alright then. Let's do a little thought experiment to show how consiousness is manifested in the brain: Imagine that a person is sitting in a chair. Then imagine that as he/she is calmly contemplating his/her own role in this vast universe, someone injects into them a large dose of a hallucinogenic drug. Suddenly, their consiousness is altered directly by altering their brain.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

eventually, if you want to say anything... it does.

Just not if there's other apparent possible causes.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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4/18/2010 6:59:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 6:58:12 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/18/2010 6:56:53 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/18/2010 6:35:57 PM, DevinKing wrote:
--Alright then. Let's do a little thought experiment to show how consiousness is manifested in the brain: Imagine that a person is sitting in a chair. Then imagine that as he/she is calmly contemplating his/her own role in this vast universe, someone injects into them a large dose of a hallucinogenic drug. Suddenly, their consiousness is altered directly by altering their brain.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

eventually, if you want to say anything... it does.

Just not if there's other apparent possible causes.

...what?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/18/2010 7:00:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 6:59:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/18/2010 6:58:12 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/18/2010 6:56:53 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/18/2010 6:35:57 PM, DevinKing wrote:
--Alright then. Let's do a little thought experiment to show how consiousness is manifested in the brain: Imagine that a person is sitting in a chair. Then imagine that as he/she is calmly contemplating his/her own role in this vast universe, someone injects into them a large dose of a hallucinogenic drug. Suddenly, their consiousness is altered directly by altering their brain.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

eventually, if you want to say anything... it does.

Just not if there's other apparent possible causes.

...what?

empiricism.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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4/18/2010 7:04:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 7:00:36 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/18/2010 6:59:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/18/2010 6:58:12 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/18/2010 6:56:53 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/18/2010 6:35:57 PM, DevinKing wrote:
--Alright then. Let's do a little thought experiment to show how consiousness is manifested in the brain: Imagine that a person is sitting in a chair. Then imagine that as he/she is calmly contemplating his/her own role in this vast universe, someone injects into them a large dose of a hallucinogenic drug. Suddenly, their consiousness is altered directly by altering their brain.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

eventually, if you want to say anything... it does.

Just not if there's other apparent possible causes.

...what?

empiricism.

That explained nothing to me. Explain to me how correlation will eventually equal causation if I want to say anything.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/18/2010 7:14:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 7:04:13 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/18/2010 7:00:36 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/18/2010 6:59:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/18/2010 6:58:12 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 4/18/2010 6:56:53 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/18/2010 6:35:57 PM, DevinKing wrote:
--Alright then. Let's do a little thought experiment to show how consiousness is manifested in the brain: Imagine that a person is sitting in a chair. Then imagine that as he/she is calmly contemplating his/her own role in this vast universe, someone injects into them a large dose of a hallucinogenic drug. Suddenly, their consiousness is altered directly by altering their brain.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.

eventually, if you want to say anything... it does.

Just not if there's other apparent possible causes.

...what?

empiricism.

That explained nothing to me. Explain to me how correlation will eventually equal causation if I want to say anything.

I was going to talk about qualia =/= perceptions and perceptions being essentially such assumptions... but I don't think we really ever consider qualia except way after percieving 'things' and think that such perceptions of things come first...

Essentially, I no longer like qualia. BUT I still think there's a pretty big disconnect between perceptions and reality... and if you care to assert anything it'll be your perceptions.

Now... perceiving 'cause', I'm thinking might be something possible without conscious consideration.

so... I'll get back to you when I work out what I think some more :)

I'm off to bed...
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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4/18/2010 7:30:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/18/2010 7:14:16 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:

I was going to talk about qualia =/= perceptions and perceptions being essentially such assumptions... but I don't think we really ever consider qualia except way after percieving 'things' and think that such perceptions of things come first...


Uh, qualia is a part of perception. When I look at a fire truck the redness appears to me in a certain way which is also another way of explaining how I perceive that redness. How does qualia come after perception if it IS the perception in this case?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
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4/19/2010 2:07:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The problem of subjective consciousness is the subject of active research. Scientist Steven Pinker writes on the subject. I gather that he thinks progress is being made and that the problem will be solved. The only think that stops me from explaining the problem in detail is ... that I don't understand it.

It would be interesting to know if it is possible to write a computer program that becomes subjectively conscious when executed. I suspect so, but with a large number of unusual conditions about how the processing is accomplished.

The problem of subjective consciousness is a recurring anime theme (Chobits, etc.) related to a fascination with robots -- invariably cute girl robots for some reason. One thought they introduce is that it doesn't matter if a being is subjectively conscious so long as it behaves as if it is.