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Hawking's Aliens

Rob1Billion
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4/28/2010 8:21:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm sure you have all heard about Hawking's "aliens" statement recently, as it has stirred up a lot of press coverage.

So Hawking says we shouldn't contact aliens, in other words we should not be emitting a bunch of radiation into space that will pinpoint our location on a theoretical alien galaxy map, as they have likely "run out of their resources" and will probably be looking for planets to plunder, Christopher Columbus style.

Do you think we should be looking for and contacting alien life?
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Rezzealaux
Posts: 2,251
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4/28/2010 8:22:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Did he start reading scifi?
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
belle
Posts: 4,113
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4/28/2010 8:28:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
i think he's just attention mongering. i read an article about him last year that suggested his star is in decline and he's grasping at straws trying to make headlines. guessing he's disappointed that he didn't discover the theory of everything :P

granted its possible, and makes sense upon a first reading (desperation is a good motivator to develop the necessary technology!) but if they have the capacity to build spaceships that can travel hundreds or thousands of lightyears then they can't be thaaat desperate. it would take MASSIVE amounts of energy.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Rezzealaux
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4/28/2010 8:33:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/28/2010 8:30:39 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
Too late now, lol

I totally interpreted this as V_V saying she was an alien and I had the crap scared out of me for about a minute. Then I calmed down because I realized what she was actually saying. I think I've read too many scifi novels too.
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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4/28/2010 8:35:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/28/2010 8:33:53 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 4/28/2010 8:30:39 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
Too late now, lol

I totally interpreted this as V_V saying she was an alien and I had the crap scared out of me for about a minute. Then I calmed down because I realized what she was actually saying. I think I've read too many scifi novels too.

Haven't you seen the tv show "V" yet ;)
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GeoLaureate8
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4/28/2010 8:37:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It doesn't take a sci fi novel to come to this conclusion. I've never read a SciFi novel in my life, yet can use common sense to deduce the existence of aliens (Drake Equation). However, ancient history is already filled with alien encounters, so no need for that.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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4/28/2010 8:50:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/28/2010 8:35:27 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
At 4/28/2010 8:33:53 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 4/28/2010 8:30:39 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
Too late now, lol

I totally interpreted this as V_V saying she was an alien and I had the crap scared out of me for about a minute. Then I calmed down because I realized what she was actually saying. I think I've read too many scifi novels too.


Haven't you seen the tv show "V" yet ;)

I've seen the original, granted I was young and easily entertained by humanoid reptiles eating people. New version seems tame from what I've seen.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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4/28/2010 8:52:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/28/2010 8:37:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
However, ancient history is already filled with alien encounters, so no need for that.

LOL i love how you say crazy stuff in the same matter of fact tone you would say the moon orbits the earth or something.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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4/28/2010 8:55:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm pretty sure if they have the technology to get here then they probably have the technology to discover viable planets.
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Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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4/28/2010 9:14:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Our world will eventually die. There's no doubt about that, and there's absolutely no doubt that aliens, if they can exist long enough, will be in search of better worlds, particularly if their home planet orbits farther out from a more massive star than our Sun (many larger stars have can have lives in the hundreds of thousands of years).

The questions are:

Will we want to communicate with these aliens?

Will technology bridge the gap between stars/galaxies?

I would also say it is safe to assume that:

Aliens do exist.

Alien life is likely to exhibit intelligence. It didn't take very long for intelligence to shine here, and even if we die out there will be plenty of time for intelligent life to take hold over and over again.

What matters most about aliens is their moral structure. If they have developed a sense of morality, then they will empathize with us and be friendly. If you are a moral relativist, I would be pretty concerned about what the aliens decide is just!

Hawking is assuming that aliens are Republicans and will treat us like we are so many chickens in a CAFO!
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/28/2010 9:18:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/28/2010 9:14:27 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
Our world will eventually die. There's no doubt about that, and there's absolutely no doubt that aliens, if they can exist long enough, will be in search of better worlds, particularly if their home planet orbits farther out from a more massive star than our Sun (many larger stars have can have lives in the hundreds of thousands of years).

The questions are:

Will we want to communicate with these aliens?

Will technology bridge the gap between stars/galaxies?

I would also say it is safe to assume that:

Aliens do exist.

Alien life is likely to exhibit intelligence. It didn't take very long for intelligence to shine here, and even if we die out there will be plenty of time for intelligent life to take hold over and over again.

What matters most about aliens is their moral structure. If they have developed a sense of morality, then they will empathize with us and be friendly. If you are a moral relativist, I would be pretty concerned about what the aliens decide is just!

Hawking is assuming that aliens are Republicans and will treat us like we are so many chickens in a CAFO!

lol...

I think given our current understanding of physics... we shouldn't have to worry about it...

but, granted, I do think sending out signals specifically FOR intelligent aliens... is just asking for trouble...

THOUGH I've also heard that our signals degrade in a fairly short distance anyways... so we prolly don't have to worry bout intergalactic intelligent conquerors hearing the call of the idiots here on Earth anyways.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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4/28/2010 9:19:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
instead of finding cool alien companions...

I say we work on cloning neanderthals.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
belle
Posts: 4,113
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4/28/2010 10:08:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/28/2010 9:35:10 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
they degrade, but they still pinpoint our location...

not if they degrade to the point of being undetectable :P
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Rob1Billion
Posts: 1,338
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4/28/2010 10:55:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I don't know that much about light, but we have an expanding sphere of radio waves emanating from our planet with a radius of about 150 (?) lightyears around us, although I think you are right, they do degrade. They have a long, weak wavelength and it's doubtful another civilization could distinguish them from background radiowaves. We have been known to send out high-powered lasers into space as beacons, however they are simply pointed in one direction, and I'm not sure if that beam would have to make a direct hit into an alien sensor to be detected...
Master P is the end result of capitalism.
belle
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4/28/2010 10:58:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/28/2010 10:55:38 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
I don't know that much about light, but we have an expanding sphere of radio waves emanating from our planet with a radius of about 150 (?) lightyears around us, although I think you are right, they do degrade. They have a long, weak wavelength and it's doubtful another civilization could distinguish them from background radiowaves. We have been known to send out high-powered lasers into space as beacons, however they are simply pointed in one direction, and I'm not sure if that beam would have to make a direct hit into an alien sensor to be detected...

actually we are extremely detectable assuming the aliens are within range... but the further away they are the less obvious we will be
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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4/28/2010 11:00:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
belle
Posts: 4,113
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4/28/2010 11:13:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
first of all, thats a misrepresentation. scientists choose hydrogen frequencies because they believe that any aliens with technology sufficient to send interstellar messages will recognize the importance of hydrogen (something like 75% of the mass in the entire universe ffs). its a reasonable estimate for where the common ground may lie.

second of all, michio kaku is often full of shyte. see:

he claims a solar storm will disable satellites in 2012 and take down GPS and the like... even though it happens every 11 years and in 2001 NOTHING HAPPENED. "because we didn't have as many satellites".

he tends to bend the truth for effect. he said it himself. "what if..."
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
GeoLaureate8
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4/28/2010 11:20:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/28/2010 11:13:13 PM, belle wrote:
first of all, thats a misrepresentation. scientists choose hydrogen frequencies because they believe that any aliens with technology sufficient to send interstellar messages will recognize the importance of hydrogen (something like 75% of the mass in the entire universe ffs). its a reasonable estimate for where the common ground may lie.

second of all, michio kaku is often full of shyte. see:

he claims a solar storm will disable satellites in 2012 and take down GPS and the like... even though it happens every 11 years and in 2001 NOTHING HAPPENED. "because we didn't have as many satellites".

He didn't say that. He said it's possible that the next solar storm that is due in 2012 (end of the 11 year cycle) will likely be stronger and may possibly wipe out communications technology. No problematic claims there. Rather than glorifying the 2012 date, he simply noted that it just so happens that the solar cycle ends that year.

You forget that he was also on Fox News recently dispelling all the 2012 myths and doomsday theories.

he tends to bend the truth for effect. he said it himself. "what if..."

So you claim.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
belle
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4/28/2010 11:37:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/28/2010 11:20:03 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
He didn't say that. He said it's possible that the next solar storm that is due in 2012 (end of the 11 year cycle) will likely be stronger and may possibly wipe out communications technology. No problematic claims there. Rather than glorifying the 2012 date, he simply noted that it just so happens that the solar cycle ends that year.

yes he was very careful to say "its possible that" or "may" instead of "will". but he's saying extremely dramatic things. our satellites may fail, etc. its sensationalistic.


You forget that he was also on Fox News recently dispelling all the 2012 myths and doomsday theories.

well then i appreciate that. good for him!

and kaku does play what if and does go for the sensational. he wrote a whole book about it! physics of the impossible....

not to say hes necessarily a *bad* scientist, but he certainly downplays the implausability of most of the things he talks about publicly. and i still stand by my assertion that he's downright wrong about the hydrogen frequencies. it makes good sense to start somewhere somewhat significant rather than guessing at random frequencies :P
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Rezzealaux
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4/29/2010 7:13:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/28/2010 8:35:27 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
At 4/28/2010 8:33:53 PM, Rezzealaux wrote:
At 4/28/2010 8:30:39 PM, Vi_Veri wrote:
Too late now, lol

I totally interpreted this as V_V saying she was an alien and I had the crap scared out of me for about a minute. Then I calmed down because I realized what she was actually saying. I think I've read too many scifi novels too.


Haven't you seen the tv show "V" yet ;)

V

Vi_Veri

OH SH!T EVERYONE HEAD FOR THEM BUNKERS
: If you weren't new here, you'd know not to feed me such attention. This is like an orgasm in my brain right now. *hehe, my name is in a title, hehe* (http://www.debate.org...)

Just in case I get into some BS with FREEDO again about how he's NOT a narcissist.

"The law is there to destroy evil under the constitutional government."
So... what's there to destroy evil inside of and above the constitutional government?
Elliot.exe
Posts: 57
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5/22/2010 5:04:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The first thing to say is Hawking FTW! Secondly in such a vast universe to deny other life or "aliens" would not be logical. That is just what I think.

Live long and prosper

Elliot.exe
Elliot.exe
Posts: 57
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5/22/2010 5:12:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
N = The number of civilizations in The Milky Way Galaxy whose electromagnetic emissions are detectable.

R* =The rate of formation of stars suitable for the development of intelligent life.

fp = The fraction of those stars with planetary systems.

ne = The number of planets, per solar system, with an environment suitable for life.

fl = The fraction of suitable planets on which life actually appears.

fi = The fraction of life bearing planets on which intelligent life emerges.

fc = The fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space.

L = The length of time such civilizations release detectable signals into space.

It makes perfect sence!
Brendan21
Posts: 294
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7/14/2010 10:39:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Aliens will likely have learned to co-exist with each other on their own planet to be able to gain the technology required for space faring. Because of this fact, I think it is likely intelligent beings will understand ethics and have morals. They will most likely be more interested in how life works on earth.
PARADIGM_L0ST
Posts: 6,958
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7/14/2010 11:24:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
So Hawking says we shouldn't contact aliens, in other words we should not be emitting a bunch of radiation into space that will pinpoint our location on a theoretical alien galaxy map, as they have likely "run out of their resources" and will probably be looking for planets to plunder, Christopher Columbus style.

Do you think we should be looking for and contacting alien life?:

I don't see the point in wasting our time. SETI has accomplished absolutely nothing with its time. It's been over 30-years of spending massive amounts of money, for what??? It's produced nothing.

Part of the problem that I see is that it is hinged upon some glaringly faulty assumptions. The assumption that Sci-Fi books and Hollywood gave us is that "aliens" are smarter than humans without having a shred of evidence that any aliens even exist. Note that the popular depictions also superficially resemble humans (2 eyes, bi-pedal, fingers, arms, legs, mouths, etc). Should there be life in some far-flung, distance galaxy would likely seem to me to be so vastly different from terrestrial life that there would be no basis for comparison.

Hawkins caveat is baseless in either direction. Intelligent life could be benevolent or malevolent. That we know exactly 0% means there is no foundation to even make such a claim.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
belle
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7/14/2010 2:03:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/14/2010 11:24:13 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Part of the problem that I see is that it is hinged upon some glaringly faulty assumptions. The assumption that Sci-Fi books and Hollywood gave us is that "aliens" are smarter than humans without having a shred of evidence that any aliens even exist.

to be fair, if a ship showed up here, they would have to be more advanced technologically than us at the very least, because as it stands, we do not have the technology to make a journey to distant star systems, at least not practically .
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Cerebral_Narcissist
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7/15/2010 10:57:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 4/28/2010 8:21:13 PM, Rob1Billion wrote:
I'm sure you have all heard about Hawking's "aliens" statement recently, as it has stirred up a lot of press coverage.

So Hawking says we shouldn't contact aliens, in other words we should not be emitting a bunch of radiation into space that will pinpoint our location on a theoretical alien galaxy map, as they have likely "run out of their resources" and will probably be looking for planets to plunder, Christopher Columbus style.

Do you think we should be looking for and contacting alien life?

I love how Hawkings comes out with all the BS I used to when I was about 12.

But anyway, he kinda has a point. However we can't entirely hide our existence from the universe. Any advanced alien race (as in 1900's tech and above) that is within 100 light years of us is probably aware of us. Which means we should be aware of them in the next century (very speculative).

But any possible ramifications of contact is pretty much anything could happen!
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Brendan21
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7/17/2010 6:30:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Alien existance is the most probable thing. Out of all billions of galaxies, it is nearly impossible for life to only exist on one planet in the universe. We should not try and hide ourselves from what could be the greatest discovery of all time, life in outer space.