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Kahvan
Posts: 1,339
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5/3/2010 10:39:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
currently science is only constrained to the physical. should science consider and explore nonphysical sciences. By this I mean anything from the priesthood to voodoo to the supernatural and unnatural, spiritual, and other areas.

The non physical has been a part of humanity sceince the very beggining so should science not explore this area? surely we could gain more understanding if we go beyond mere physical bounderies?
Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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5/3/2010 10:43:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
...... Science shows that everything is physical. Monism. Voodoo etc have been scientifically tested and turned up to be NOT REAL.
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/3/2010 10:48:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 10:39:49 AM, Kahvan wrote:
currently science is only constrained to the physical. should science consider and explore nonphysical sciences. By this I mean anything from the priesthood to voodoo to the supernatural and unnatural, spiritual, and other areas.

The non physical has been a part of humanity sceince the very beggining so should science not explore this area? surely we could gain more understanding if we go beyond mere physical bounderies?

I'd say science ought to be the methodological, empiric, experimental, study of Phenomena.... all phenomena.

The thing is.... There's no reason to believe in supernatural phenomena... and nothing identifiable as supernatural phenomena available to study.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Floid
Posts: 751
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5/3/2010 11:29:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
"By this I mean anything from the priesthood to voodoo to the supernatural and unnatural, spiritual, and other areas."

There is nothing to test there. No repeatable experiments, no empirical evidence, nothing quantitave to analyze so science isn't involved.

"The non physical has been a part of humanity sceince the very beggining so should science not explore this area?"

I think the "humanity sciences" such as psychology, sociology, etc are better qualified as pseudo-sciences, meaning they take on the outward form of science but when you really look at it the subjec matter defies the ability to really apply science in its deepest and true form.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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5/3/2010 11:32:33 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 10:43:32 AM, Vi_Veri wrote:
...... Science shows that everything is physical. Monism. Voodoo etc have been scientifically tested and turned up to be NOT REAL.

Voodoo is real man!
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Vi_Veri
Posts: 4,487
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5/3/2010 11:38:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 11:29:28 AM, Floid wrote:

I think the "humanity sciences" such as psychology, sociology, etc are better qualified as pseudo-sciences, meaning they take on the outward form of science but when you really look at it the subjec matter defies the ability to really apply science in its deepest and true form.

Ever heard of Brain Mapping?
I could give a f about no haters as long as my ishes love me.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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5/3/2010 2:08:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 11:29:28 AM, Floid wrote:
I think the "humanity sciences" such as psychology, sociology, etc are better qualified as pseudo-sciences, meaning they take on the outward form of science but when you really look at it the subjec matter defies the ability to really apply science in its deepest and true form.

the scientific method can be applied to the humanities. just because many practitioners choose to draw conclusions beyond what the data warrent doesn't make the dicipline as a whole unscientific any more than homeopaths make medicine unscientific.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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5/3/2010 2:24:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 10:43:32 AM, Vi_Veri wrote:
...... Science shows that everything is physical. Monism. Voodoo etc have been scientifically tested and turned up to be NOT REAL.

No, it doesn't. That's what physicalism says.
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mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/3/2010 2:59:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 2:24:31 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/3/2010 10:43:32 AM, Vi_Veri wrote:
Monism.. has been scientifically tested and turned up to be NOT REAL.

Monism = all things are 1

think like... a SINGULARITY

you know... where all is one...

and then it "expands" but does that mean there's more than 1????

The "Uni"-verse ring any bells?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/3/2010 3:02:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The existence of every "thing" is dependent on the underlying nature of reality. Every "thing" is existent due to that nature... It's all identified as parts of that whole.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/3/2010 3:25:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 3:21:52 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
Also the Primum movens.

You mean the Utterly incomprehensible "cause"???

oh.

So long as you don't try comprehending it... I agree.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/3/2010 3:31:13 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 2:59:56 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/3/2010 2:24:31 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/3/2010 10:43:32 AM, Vi_Veri wrote:
Monism.. has been scientifically tested and turned up to be NOT REAL.


Monism = all things are 1

think like... a SINGULARITY

you know... where all is one...

and then it "expands" but does that mean there's more than 1????

That's not monism. Monism denies the mind/matter and physical/spirit paradigm. Monism says that everything is matter, no mind. By contrast, Panpsychism says that everything is mind. However, Monism also means that everything in the Universe is one substance, so even Panpsychism is monistic.

But what Kahvan is talking about is dualism, not monism.

The "Uni"-verse ring any bells?

And... That doesn't prove anything. If a spiritual/supernatural realm exists it is part of the Universe, yes. But if it does not exist, it is not part of the Universe. So what's you're point?
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/3/2010 3:34:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 2:59:56 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/3/2010 2:24:31 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/3/2010 10:43:32 AM, Vi_Veri wrote:
Monism.. has been scientifically tested and turned up to be NOT REAL.


Monism = all things are 1

think like... a SINGULARITY

you know... where all is one...

and then it "expands" but does that mean there's more than 1????

The "Uni"-verse ring any bells?

Btw, you misquoted Vi to make it look as if she said Monism has been scientifically disproven.

On the contrary, Vi is a Monist and asserting that it is true.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/3/2010 3:35:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 3:31:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
So what's you're point?

Science explains the universe as the expansion of a singularity.

sounds "Monistic" to me.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/3/2010 3:38:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 3:34:59 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Btw, you misquoted Vi to make it look as if she said Monism has been scientifically disproven.

On the contrary, Vi is a Monist and asserting that it is true.

I was about to try to refute you... but then I realized you were right.

Sorry for the misquote!

I was trying to clarify Exactly what I was refuting....

I misunderstood what she had stated. I didn't purposefully misrepresent what she said.... (and I bolded those parts I changed)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/3/2010 3:39:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 3:38:00 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
(and I bolded those parts I changed)

the ... and the s
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
belle
Posts: 4,113
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5/3/2010 3:39:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 3:35:26 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/3/2010 3:31:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
So what's you're point?

Science explains the universe as the expansion of a singularity.

sounds "Monistic" to me.

lol you don't need a sigularity to assert monism. you just have to deny that "mind" is a separate substance, made of seperate "stuff" than ordinary matter. (maybe other things as well, though i have never heard of a theory expounding on more than two basic substances. would be interesting to read no doubt!)
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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5/3/2010 4:05:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 3:39:51 PM, belle wrote:
At 5/3/2010 3:35:26 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/3/2010 3:31:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
So what's you're point?

Science explains the universe as the expansion of a singularity.

sounds "Monistic" to me.

lol you don't need a sigularity to assert monism. you just have to deny that "mind" is a separate substance, made of seperate "stuff" than ordinary matter. (maybe other things as well, though i have never heard of a theory expounding on more than two basic substances. would be interesting to read no doubt!)

Dualism (substance) doesn't posit any extra "stuff" - "mind-stuff" (as Dennet likes to mischaracterize it) or otherwise. "Substance" in this context simply means an object/thing that bears properties.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
belle
Posts: 4,113
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5/3/2010 4:08:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 4:05:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Dualism (substance) doesn't posit any extra "stuff" - "mind-stuff" (as Dennet likes to mischaracterize it) or otherwise. "Substance" in this context simply means an object/thing that bears properties.

well it is "stuff" in that it is fundamentally different and separate from physical matter, correct?
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/3/2010 4:11:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 4:05:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
"mind-stuff" (as Dennet likes to mischaracterize it) or otherwise.

Yeah, I'd think you'd be more into "soul stuff"
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/3/2010 4:11:26 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 4:05:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/3/2010 3:39:51 PM, belle wrote:
At 5/3/2010 3:35:26 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/3/2010 3:31:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
So what's you're point?

Science explains the universe as the expansion of a singularity.

sounds "Monistic" to me.

lol you don't need a sigularity to assert monism. you just have to deny that "mind" is a separate substance, made of seperate "stuff" than ordinary matter. (maybe other things as well, though i have never heard of a theory expounding on more than two basic substances. would be interesting to read no doubt!)

Dualism (substance) doesn't posit any extra "stuff" - "mind-stuff" (as Dennet likes to mischaracterize it) or otherwise. "Substance" in this context simply means an object/thing that bears properties.

If it's not something, it's nothing.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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5/3/2010 4:21:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 4:11:26 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/3/2010 4:05:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/3/2010 3:39:51 PM, belle wrote:
At 5/3/2010 3:35:26 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/3/2010 3:31:13 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
So what's you're point?

Science explains the universe as the expansion of a singularity.

sounds "Monistic" to me.

lol you don't need a sigularity to assert monism. you just have to deny that "mind" is a separate substance, made of seperate "stuff" than ordinary matter. (maybe other things as well, though i have never heard of a theory expounding on more than two basic substances. would be interesting to read no doubt!)

Dualism (substance) doesn't posit any extra "stuff" - "mind-stuff" (as Dennet likes to mischaracterize it) or otherwise. "Substance" in this context simply means an object/thing that bears properties.

If it's not something, it's nothing.

...I never said it isn't something...
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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5/3/2010 4:30:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 4:08:49 PM, belle wrote:
At 5/3/2010 4:05:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Dualism (substance) doesn't posit any extra "stuff" - "mind-stuff" (as Dennet likes to mischaracterize it) or otherwise. "Substance" in this context simply means an object/thing that bears properties.

well it is "stuff" in that it is fundamentally different and separate from physical matter, correct?

No, it's not "stuff" at all in any sense of the word. A mental substance is not made up of some other-worldly material "stuff' that we've yet to discover nor is it "made up", as it were, of some immaterial "stuff". It is simply a substance that is not physical; not material.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/3/2010 4:34:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 4:30:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/3/2010 4:08:49 PM, belle wrote:
At 5/3/2010 4:05:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Dualism (substance) doesn't posit any extra "stuff" - "mind-stuff" (as Dennet likes to mischaracterize it) or otherwise. "Substance" in this context simply means an object/thing that bears properties.

well it is "stuff" in that it is fundamentally different and separate from physical matter, correct?

No, it's not "stuff" at all in any sense of the word. A mental substance is not made up of some other-worldly material "stuff' that we've yet to discover nor is it "made up", as it were, of some immaterial "stuff". It is simply a substance that is not physical; not material.

what is it made up of?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
belle
Posts: 4,113
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5/3/2010 4:45:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 4:30:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/3/2010 4:08:49 PM, belle wrote:
At 5/3/2010 4:05:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Dualism (substance) doesn't posit any extra "stuff" - "mind-stuff" (as Dennet likes to mischaracterize it) or otherwise. "Substance" in this context simply means an object/thing that bears properties.

well it is "stuff" in that it is fundamentally different and separate from physical matter, correct?

No, it's not "stuff" at all in any sense of the word. A mental substance is not made up of some other-worldly material "stuff' that we've yet to discover nor is it "made up", as it were, of some immaterial "stuff". It is simply a substance that is not physical; not material.

if its a substance it is "stuff" of some kind... is there a nonarbitrary way you can justify the distinction?
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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5/3/2010 4:51:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 4:34:38 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/3/2010 4:30:12 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 5/3/2010 4:08:49 PM, belle wrote:
At 5/3/2010 4:05:56 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Dualism (substance) doesn't posit any extra "stuff" - "mind-stuff" (as Dennet likes to mischaracterize it) or otherwise. "Substance" in this context simply means an object/thing that bears properties.

well it is "stuff" in that it is fundamentally different and separate from physical matter, correct?

No, it's not "stuff" at all in any sense of the word. A mental substance is not made up of some other-worldly material "stuff' that we've yet to discover nor is it "made up", as it were, of some immaterial "stuff". It is simply a substance that is not physical; not material.

what is it made up of?

Category mistake. How much do your thoughts weigh? Where are they located? How fast do they move?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/3/2010 5:01:20 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 4:51:16 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Category mistake. How much do your thoughts weigh? Where are they located? How fast do they move?

How do they come about?

Why can't they just be classified as psychical phenomena rooted in physical reality?

Why suggest that they're not caused by/experienced effects of the Brain?

Dualism suggests a separation between mind and matter... why can't thoughts be rooted in matter?
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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5/3/2010 5:13:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 5:01:20 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/3/2010 4:51:16 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Category mistake. How much do your thoughts weigh? Where are they located? How fast do they move?

How do they come about?

Why can't they just be classified as psychical phenomena rooted in physical reality?

Why suggest that they're not caused by/experienced effects of the Brain?

Dualism suggests a separation between mind and matter... why can't thoughts be rooted in matter?

Matter =/= Rooted in matter
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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5/3/2010 5:34:22 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 5/3/2010 5:13:42 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 5/3/2010 5:01:20 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 5/3/2010 4:51:16 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Category mistake. How much do your thoughts weigh? Where are they located? How fast do they move?

How do they come about?

Why can't they just be classified as psychical phenomena rooted in physical reality?

Why suggest that they're not caused by/experienced effects of the Brain?

Dualism suggests a separation between mind and matter... why can't thoughts be rooted in matter?

Matter =/= Rooted in matter

If your experiences are rooted in matter... they are ultimately... Material phenomena.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."