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Evolution and it's rejection.

HououinKyouma
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12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM
Posted: 2 years ago
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
chui
Posts: 507
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12/5/2014 11:08:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum?

My theory is that it stems from a lack of appropriate health care for those in desperate need. Alternatively it is a result of mental cruelty during childhood.

This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil.

Some people, apparently, do still believe in astrology but presumably they are less likely to frequent internet forums. Do they know something we don't?

Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

Sssssh.... you will get them going again saying things like that.

But, joking aside, I find it worrying so many people seem totally convinced of the creation story. Its not like they argue that they just have a personal preference, but rather they claim to have absolute certainty that science is all wrong. As a scientist I would not claim that the theory of evolution as it stands right now is complete and correct in every detail. This I feel is a rational view, that there is always some level of uncertainty even with the best of evidence. But the absolute certainty of some contributors here I find frightening and I genuinely do feel it stems from psychosis in some of the extreme cases.

I would hate to see someone of such cast iron conviction in a position of power. It seems that if the evidence contradicts their truth then it is the evidence that is at fault. So they don't bother with evidence.
Fly
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12/5/2014 1:06:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Sorry to inform you that it isn't just the Science forum (and, obviously, the Religion forum). Dogmatic religious devotees shoehorn their pulpits into the Philosophy, Politics, Society, and News forums as well. The Economics forum seems pretty free and clear of it, though.

Then they wonder why so many atheists have the gall to voice their objections to these beliefs!

I think this site could very well be renamed "debatewhethergodexists.org"
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
HououinKyouma
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12/5/2014 5:56:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/5/2014 11:08:39 AM, chui wrote:
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum?

My theory is that it stems from a lack of appropriate health care for those in desperate need. Alternatively it is a result of mental cruelty during childhood.

Lack of health-care or lack of education?

This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil.

Some people, apparently, do still believe in astrology but presumably they are less likely to frequent internet forums. Do they know something we don't?

I don't think anyone really believes in astrology, at least I haven't come across people like that...but people who really believe in creationism--those exist by the millions! If they know something we don't I think it is clear that they don't want to share it.

Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

Sssssh.... you will get them going again saying things like that.

But, joking aside, I find it worrying so many people seem totally convinced of the creation story. Its not like they argue that they just have a personal preference, but rather they claim to have absolute certainty that science is all wrong. As a scientist I would not claim that the theory of evolution as it stands right now is complete and correct in every detail. This I feel is a rational view, that there is always some level of uncertainty even with the best of evidence. But the absolute certainty of some contributors here I find frightening and I genuinely do feel it stems from psychosis in some of the extreme cases.

Oh, of course, I mean there will always be gaps in any theory, and evolutionary theory has progressed a lot since it was first put forward, but I think that the general picture cannot be, as it were, thrown away.

I would hate to see someone of such cast iron conviction in a position of power. It seems that if the evidence contradicts their truth then it is the evidence that is at fault. So they don't bother with evidence.

I completely agree.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
HououinKyouma
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12/5/2014 5:57:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/5/2014 1:06:02 PM, Fly wrote:
Sorry to inform you that it isn't just the Science forum (and, obviously, the Religion forum). Dogmatic religious devotees shoehorn their pulpits into the Philosophy, Politics, Society, and News forums as well. The Economics forum seems pretty free and clear of it, though.

Then they wonder why so many atheists have the gall to voice their objections to these beliefs!

I think this site could very well be renamed "debatewhethergodexists.org"

Lol! But why is that? Why are there so many fundamentalist christians, people who believe things that not even the leaders of their churches believe?
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
PeacefulChaos
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12/5/2014 10:44:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

Tuturu!

The organization is after you. You must find a way back, it's the choice of Steins Gate!
HououinKyouma
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12/6/2014 7:11:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/5/2014 10:44:42 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

Tuturu!

The organization is after you. You must find a way back, it's the choice of Steins Gate!

Hahaha, that was great.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
v3nesl
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12/8/2014 1:10:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

'fact'? lol. As Inigo Montoya classically put it: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

We have threads about religion, politics, and science. We don't have a 'modern day alchemy' forum, so evolution has to go in one of the other forums.
This space for rent.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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12/8/2014 1:16:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 1:10:44 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

'fact'? lol. As Inigo Montoya classically put it: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

We have threads about religion, politics, and science. We don't have a 'modern day alchemy' forum, so evolution has to go in one of the other forums.

I am quite tempted to start one. I have just finished reading an arctical of Newton's on that very notion...
SamStevens
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12/8/2014 1:23:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

Probably because people think that their religion is right while science is wrong. The evidence for evolution is there. The people who oppose it are just in denial. It basically comes down to your analogy with astrology and astronomy.

Well, evolution is really just a well supported scientific theory. That is different from it being a fact.
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
v3nesl
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12/8/2014 1:37:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 1:16:31 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/8/2014 1:10:44 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

'fact'? lol. As Inigo Montoya classically put it: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

We have threads about religion, politics, and science. We don't have a 'modern day alchemy' forum, so evolution has to go in one of the other forums.

I am quite tempted to start one. I have just finished reading an arctical of Newton's on that very notion...

I am, of course, referring to the popular idea of alchemy where they attempted to turn various materials into gold. There was plenty of perfectly valid inquiry that falls under 'alchemy'. They may have been testing some odd hypotheses, by our standards, but as long as hypotheses were tested, and accepted or rejected accordingly, I have the utmost respect for researchers from earlier times.

That, as you probably know, is my beef with evolution: It proposes a mechanism never tested nor demonstrated to explain a history that is only inferred, and from only the most indirect of evidence. (said mechanism being the creative but unguided, large scale accumulation of random mutations (and large scale being > 2, roughly)) It's no more bizarre of a hypothesis than some of alchemy I suppose - maybe you can turn lead into gold, maybe somebody will figure it out. But for now, nobody has done so, and nobody has been able to evolve anything nor see it happening.
This space for rent.
v3nesl
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12/8/2014 1:42:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 1:23:45 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

Probably because people think that their religion is right while science is wrong. The evidence for evolution is there. The people who oppose it are just in denial.

Argghhh, this is so annoying, on so many counts. Unfounded arrogance is really annoying to me.

One of the ways I decide what to believe religiously is by comparing the Bible to the evidence. And I find evolution to actually be evidence for religion - it is such a preposterous bit of nonsense that no one would go to such lengths to prop it up without strong motivations. So man IS a spiritual creature, and his spirit trumps his reason at times.

Evolution is 'the emperor's new clothes'. It really is a strikingly good analogy.
This space for rent.
Envisage
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12/8/2014 1:44:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 1:37:29 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 12/8/2014 1:16:31 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/8/2014 1:10:44 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

'fact'? lol. As Inigo Montoya classically put it: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

We have threads about religion, politics, and science. We don't have a 'modern day alchemy' forum, so evolution has to go in one of the other forums.

I am quite tempted to start one. I have just finished reading an arctical of Newton's on that very notion...

I am, of course, referring to the popular idea of alchemy where they attempted to turn various materials into gold. There was plenty of perfectly valid inquiry that falls under 'alchemy'. They may have been testing some odd hypotheses, by our standards, but as long as hypotheses were tested, and accepted or rejected accordingly, I have the utmost respect for researchers from earlier times.

And then stuff started to work...

That, as you probably know, is my beef with evolution: It proposes a mechanism never tested nor demonstrated to explain a history that is only inferred, and from only the most indirect of evidence. (said mechanism being the creative but unguided, large scale accumulation of random mutations (and large scale being > 2, roughly)) It's no more bizarre of a hypothesis than some of alchemy I suppose - maybe you can turn lead into gold, maybe somebody will figure it out. But for now, nobody has done so, and nobody has been able to evolve anything nor see it happening.

We should debate evolution next... The problem is you are binning virtually everything about evolution into one bucket and then making claims about it. In doing so it's unclear where your arguments are attacking. You could be attacking common ancestry, mutations, natural selection, adaptive radiation, adaption, the definition of species/family/genus, etc. Etc.

You switch between attacking the mechanisms if evolution (evolution occurs via doing XYZ) to the facts of evolution (facts ABC support the conclusion that evolution happened), which are two very separate fields.
SamStevens
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12/8/2014 1:55:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 1:42:08 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 12/8/2014 1:23:45 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

Probably because people think that their religion is right while science is wrong. The evidence for evolution is there. The people who oppose it are just in denial.

Argghhh, this is so annoying, on so many counts. Unfounded arrogance is really annoying to me.

One of the ways I decide what to believe religiously is by comparing the Bible to the evidence. And I find evolution to actually be evidence for religion - it is such a preposterous bit of nonsense that no one would go to such lengths to prop it up without strong motivations. So man IS a spiritual creature, and his spirit trumps his reason at times.

That strong motivation being a desire to know what actually happened using evidence and reason as opposed to relying on a book to dictate the history of the universe.

It is far from nonsense. There is a variety of strong evidence to back up evolution: http://www.talkorigins.org..., http://phylointelligence.com..., and http://www.talkorigins.org....

I could see how being spiritual can triumph reason in some cases, but when you are looking for the truth, reason and evidence is the way to go.


Evolution is 'the emperor's new clothes'. It really is a strikingly good analogy.
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
v3nesl
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12/8/2014 2:25:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 1:44:15 PM, Envisage wrote:
...
We should debate evolution next... The problem is you are binning virtually everything about evolution into one bucket and then making claims about it. In doing so it's unclear where your arguments are attacking. You could be attacking common ancestry,

That'll work. I dispute that all extant life descended from a common ancestor.


You switch between attacking the mechanisms if evolution (evolution occurs via doing XYZ) to the facts of evolution (facts ABC support the conclusion that evolution happened), which are two very separate fields.

And you evos dance. You constantly make the logical fallacy of thinking that breaking the overall impossibility of evolution into more tolerable bytes will help. But the chances of flipping 2 heads in a row 50 times is exactly the same as the odds of flipping 100 heads at a pop. So the idea of all extant life emerging spontaneously from a single simple ancestor remains absurd, no matter how fancy you say it.
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v3nesl
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12/8/2014 2:27:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 1:55:36 PM, SamStevens wrote:
...
when you are looking for the truth, reason and evidence is the way to go.


And how do you know this?
This space for rent.
v3nesl
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12/8/2014 2:29:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 1:55:36 PM, SamStevens wrote:


I visited your profile, btw. That's a riot! Good one. I used to have pet cockroaches too, but they ran off when my mom came downstairs and turned the lights on.
This space for rent.
Envisage
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12/8/2014 2:32:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 2:25:44 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 12/8/2014 1:44:15 PM, Envisage wrote:
...
We should debate evolution next... The problem is you are binning virtually everything about evolution into one bucket and then making claims about it. In doing so it's unclear where your arguments are attacking. You could be attacking common ancestry,

That'll work. I dispute that all extant life descended from a common ancestor.

What do you mean by "that'll work"> And I am aware of that, I was addressing the way in which you go about attacking evolution, which itself is a tapdace (ironically).

You switch between attacking the mechanisms if evolution (evolution occurs via doing XYZ) to the facts of evolution (facts ABC support the conclusion that evolution happened), which are two very separate fields.

And you evos dance. You constantly make the logical fallacy of thinking that breaking the overall impossibility of evolution into more tolerable bytes will help.

No, I am trying to help you improve your arguments, since you have a strong tendancy to string together an assortment of random claims about different aspects into a single statement, which is both annoying for the readers (because your point becomes incoherent), but also bad for you since you never make clean points as a result.

Instead of:
A: A must be false because XY, which leads to ST, which is absurd because AB
B: B must be what occurs instead, because of it's explanatory power of XY and ST, and doesn't run into the same problems as AB

You argue more like this:
A: We have A which is needed for B which is absurd because of B, but Y, then there is S but T, and B because idiot R said A but not B, etc etc.
v3nesl
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12/8/2014 4:01:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 2:32:08 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/8/2014 2:25:44 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 12/8/2014 1:44:15 PM, Envisage wrote:
...
We should debate evolution next... The problem is you are binning virtually everything about evolution into one bucket and then making claims about it. In doing so it's unclear where your arguments are attacking. You could be attacking common ancestry,

That'll work. I dispute that all extant life descended from a common ancestor.

What do you mean by "that'll work"

I mean that I will debate this definition, since you want specificity. I give you a specific dispute and you just ignore it. Maybe you prefer debating my style instead of my substance - ?


No, I am trying to help you improve your arguments, since you have a strong tendancy to string together an assortment of random claims about different aspects into a single statement, which is both annoying for the readers (because your point becomes incoherent), but also bad for you since you never make clean points as a result.


I try to slow my mind down for ya, bro. I'm not sure how much better I can do.

Instead of:
A: A must be false because XY, which leads to ST, which is absurd because AB
B: B must be what occurs instead, because of it's explanatory power of XY and ST, and doesn't run into the same problems as AB

You argue more like this:
A: We have A which is needed for B which is absurd because of B, but Y, then there is S but T, and B because idiot R said A but not B, etc etc.

Yes, I can see the clarity of your methods. It's a beautiful thing there, what you just did.
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HououinKyouma
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12/8/2014 5:48:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 1:23:45 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

Probably because people think that their religion is right while science is wrong. The evidence for evolution is there. The people who oppose it are just in denial. It basically comes down to your analogy with astrology and astronomy.

Well, evolution is really just a well supported scientific theory. That is different from it being a fact.

That's why I used the phrase "in layman's terms". Saying evolution is "really just a well supported scientific theory" seems to be a bit of an understatement, thought, at least in my opinion,
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
HououinKyouma
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12/8/2014 5:53:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 1:10:44 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

'fact'? lol. As Inigo Montoya classically put it: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Does anyone in DDO actually ever read what other people post? Did you not see that I used the phrase "layman's terms"? Yes, in scientific and philosophical language one classifies evolution as a "theory" but in "layman's terms"--there is that phrase again--it is a "fact", in the sense that all of its predictions and hypothesis are supported by all the evidence.

We have threads about religion, politics, and science. We don't have a 'modern day alchemy' forum, so evolution has to go in one of the other forums.

But why is it even debated? There is nothing to debate here.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
SamStevens
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12/8/2014 6:02:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 5:48:52 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 12/8/2014 1:23:45 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

Probably because people think that their religion is right while science is wrong. The evidence for evolution is there. The people who oppose it are just in denial. It basically comes down to your analogy with astrology and astronomy.

Well, evolution is really just a well supported scientific theory. That is different from it being a fact.

That's why I used the phrase "in layman's terms". Saying evolution is "really just a well supported scientific theory" seems to be a bit of an understatement, thought, at least in my opinion,

I don't know if it is an understatement because a scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world.
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
HououinKyouma
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12/8/2014 6:09:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 6:02:57 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 12/8/2014 5:48:52 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 12/8/2014 1:23:45 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

Probably because people think that their religion is right while science is wrong. The evidence for evolution is there. The people who oppose it are just in denial. It basically comes down to your analogy with astrology and astronomy.

Well, evolution is really just a well supported scientific theory. That is different from it being a fact.

That's why I used the phrase "in layman's terms". Saying evolution is "really just a well supported scientific theory" seems to be a bit of an understatement, thought, at least in my opinion,

I don't know if it is an understatement because a scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world.

I meant that the word "just" in particular made the phrase seemed understated. Evolution is a scientific theory like any other successful scientific theory, but it is also one of the most fascinating and successful theories in science.

P.S. I want to make it clear that we have no disagreement on this issue.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
SamStevens
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12/8/2014 6:11:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 6:09:56 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 12/8/2014 6:02:57 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 12/8/2014 5:48:52 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 12/8/2014 1:23:45 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

Probably because people think that their religion is right while science is wrong. The evidence for evolution is there. The people who oppose it are just in denial. It basically comes down to your analogy with astrology and astronomy.

Well, evolution is really just a well supported scientific theory. That is different from it being a fact.

That's why I used the phrase "in layman's terms". Saying evolution is "really just a well supported scientific theory" seems to be a bit of an understatement, thought, at least in my opinion,

I don't know if it is an understatement because a scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world.

I meant that the word "just" in particular made the phrase seemed understated. Evolution is a scientific theory like any other successful scientific theory, but it is also one of the most fascinating and successful theories in science.

P.S. I want to make it clear that we have no disagreement on this issue.

No disagreement.
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
Life asked Death "Why do people love me but hate you?"
Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
v3nesl
Posts: 4,463
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12/9/2014 9:22:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 5:53:22 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 12/8/2014 1:10:44 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

'fact'? lol. As Inigo Montoya classically put it: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Does anyone in DDO actually ever read what other people post? Did you not see that I used the phrase "layman's terms"? Yes, in scientific and philosophical language one classifies evolution as a "theory" but in "layman's terms"--there is that phrase again--it is a "fact", in the sense that all of its predictions and hypothesis are supported by all the evidence.

And I'm disputing that. The claim that all extant life emerged spontaneously from a common ancestor is, in layman's terms, bullsh*t. That's not what happened.


We have threads about religion, politics, and science. We don't have a 'modern day alchemy' forum, so evolution has to go in one of the other forums.

But why is it even debated? There is nothing to debate here.
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v3nesl
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12/9/2014 9:40:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/8/2014 5:48:52 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 12/8/2014 1:23:45 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

Probably because people think that their religion is right while science is wrong. The evidence for evolution is there. The people who oppose it are just in denial. It basically comes down to your analogy with astrology and astronomy.

Well, evolution is really just a well supported scientific theory. That is different from it being a fact.

That's why I used the phrase "in layman's terms". Saying evolution is "really just a well supported scientific theory" seems to be a bit of an understatement, thought, at least in my opinion,

I suspect that what you mean is "the scientists seem really sure about this". But that's not the same as scientific certainty.

We happen to live in an age, like other ages, where the status quo has gone off the rails. There never is a substitute for using you own God given brain, I'm afraid. There never is a time where you can side with the experts just because they're the experts. Sometimes you have to, of course, like if you're going under surgery, but you should never, as I say, mistake the certainty of experts for absolute truth.
This space for rent.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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12/9/2014 12:56:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/9/2014 9:40:52 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 12/8/2014 5:48:52 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 12/8/2014 1:23:45 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

Probably because people think that their religion is right while science is wrong. The evidence for evolution is there. The people who oppose it are just in denial. It basically comes down to your analogy with astrology and astronomy.

Well, evolution is really just a well supported scientific theory. That is different from it being a fact.

That's why I used the phrase "in layman's terms". Saying evolution is "really just a well supported scientific theory" seems to be a bit of an understatement, thought, at least in my opinion,

I suspect that what you mean is "the scientists seem really sure about this". But that's not the same as scientific certainty.

We happen to live in an age, like other ages, where the status quo has gone off the rails. There never is a substitute for using you own God given brain, I'm afraid. There never is a time where you can side with the experts just because they're the experts. Sometimes you have to, of course, like if you're going under surgery, but you should never, as I say, mistake the certainty of experts for absolute truth.

Rejecting the evidence with a never ending tirade of strawmen, poor arguments and unwillingness to even acknowledge what the evidence is, leave alone actually address is, is NOT the same thing as "there is no evidence".
v3nesl
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12/9/2014 3:52:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/9/2014 12:56:29 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/9/2014 9:40:52 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 12/8/2014 5:48:52 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 12/8/2014 1:23:45 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

Probably because people think that their religion is right while science is wrong. The evidence for evolution is there. The people who oppose it are just in denial. It basically comes down to your analogy with astrology and astronomy.

Well, evolution is really just a well supported scientific theory. That is different from it being a fact.

That's why I used the phrase "in layman's terms". Saying evolution is "really just a well supported scientific theory" seems to be a bit of an understatement, thought, at least in my opinion,

I suspect that what you mean is "the scientists seem really sure about this". But that's not the same as scientific certainty.

We happen to live in an age, like other ages, where the status quo has gone off the rails. There never is a substitute for using you own God given brain, I'm afraid. There never is a time where you can side with the experts just because they're the experts. Sometimes you have to, of course, like if you're going under surgery, but you should never, as I say, mistake the certainty of experts for absolute truth.

Rejecting the evidence with a never ending tirade of strawmen, poor arguments and unwillingness to even acknowledge what the evidence is, leave alone actually address is, is NOT the same thing as "there is no evidence".

And I never, NEVER, said there was no evidence, did I? So YOU are trotting out the straw man. I think they call this irony.

I said, btw, that the evidence is wrongly interpreted, like the Ptolemaic motions of the planets. It was based on mountains of observation, was sophisticated, useful, predictive, etc., just like evolution. But wrong.
This space for rent.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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12/9/2014 4:25:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/9/2014 3:52:19 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 12/9/2014 12:56:29 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/9/2014 9:40:52 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 12/8/2014 5:48:52 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 12/8/2014 1:23:45 PM, SamStevens wrote:
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil. Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

Probably because people think that their religion is right while science is wrong. The evidence for evolution is there. The people who oppose it are just in denial. It basically comes down to your analogy with astrology and astronomy.

Well, evolution is really just a well supported scientific theory. That is different from it being a fact.

That's why I used the phrase "in layman's terms". Saying evolution is "really just a well supported scientific theory" seems to be a bit of an understatement, thought, at least in my opinion,

I suspect that what you mean is "the scientists seem really sure about this". But that's not the same as scientific certainty.

We happen to live in an age, like other ages, where the status quo has gone off the rails. There never is a substitute for using you own God given brain, I'm afraid. There never is a time where you can side with the experts just because they're the experts. Sometimes you have to, of course, like if you're going under surgery, but you should never, as I say, mistake the certainty of experts for absolute truth.

Rejecting the evidence with a never ending tirade of strawmen, poor arguments and unwillingness to even acknowledge what the evidence is, leave alone actually address is, is NOT the same thing as "there is no evidence".

And I never, NEVER, said there was no evidence, did I? So YOU are trotting out the straw man. I think they call this irony.

Not really. You claim none of the strong evidence for evolution that has been posted for evolution is actually evidence at all, so this is pretty much exactly your position.

I said, btw, that the evidence is wrongly interpreted, like the Ptolemaic motions of the planets. It was based on mountains of observation, was sophisticated, useful, predictive, etc., just like evolution. But wrong.

Yet you never actually produce an explanation of why this interpretation is wrong, in a way that actually provides either an alternative explanation, or a potential alternative explanation that holds any water.

Primarily, because you engage in an endless tirade of straw men that doesn't even acknowledge what the evidence really is, leave alone actually address it.
medic0506
Posts: 13,450
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12/9/2014 4:56:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/5/2014 10:16:24 AM, HououinKyouma wrote:
Can anyone in DDO explain to me why there are so many threads about evolution vs. creationism in the SCIENCE forum? This seems to me absurd, it is as if we were debating whether or not astrology is as good as astronomy, or rather more accurately, that astrology is true and astronomy is a work of the devil.

So should we say that debate over evolution should be restricted to the religious forum?? I'm ok with that, since creation and evolutionism are both beliefs about our origins (depending on your definition of evolution).

Evolution is, to put it in layman's terms, scientific fact.

Living organisms change over time, that's a scientific fact. That living organisms change into other living organisms is not at all a fact. That part is a belief.