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The Cambrian Explosion and Evolution

a_drumming_dog
Posts: 93
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12/7/2014 10:52:51 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
"Around 530 million years ago, a wide variety of animals burst onto the evolutionary scene in an event known as the Cambrian explosion. In perhaps as few as 10 million years, marine animals evolved most of the basic body forms that we observe in modern groups. Among the organisms preserved in fossils from this time are relatives of crustaceans and starfish, sponges, mollusks, worms, chordates, and algae, exemplified by these taxa from the Burgess Shale."
http://evolution.berkeley.edu...

The Cambrian Explosion was a very significant event. According to what I've learned, we do not see evolution occurring at the pace of the Cambrian explosion any where else in the fossil record. Even the great Richard Dawkins admitted this in one of his books, although I can't remember which one at the moment. Most phyla that exist today were present in the explosion.

So my question is, by what evolutionary mechanism did the Cambrian Explosion occur?

It seems that the standard mutation coupled with natural selection is insufficient to explain it, because these mechanisms cause the speed of evolution to occur at a relatively normal rate, the rate at which we see in the rest of the fossil record. They don't seem to cause evolution at a massive speed, like we see in the Cambrian. It seems that punctuated equilibria would also be inadequate to explain this, unless devastating life-altering events occurred over and over again during the millions of years during the Cambrian explosion. That would be highly unlikely though, however. Thoughts?
The truth will set you free
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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12/7/2014 11:17:19 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
There are a lot of things that affect the rate of evolution in a population of organisms: generation rate, availability of resources, rate of predation, population size, etc. Since the Cambrian explosion happened after a major extinction, it's reasonable to think that resources for most organisms would have been plentiful. That especially includes new space to expand into, and this would have allowed for large populations to diverge to fill many different niches. Furthermore, the environment back then may have included a lot of mutagenic factors. Those two broad factors would have accelerated evolution greatly. When you look at our planet today, life has expanded into almost every nook and cranny. All organisms are in direct competition with others for resources and almost everything is prey to something else.

To put it more simply, things are very different now than they were then. The planet was practically a blank canvas for life to expand into during the Cambrian, while it's a Pollock painting now.
Otokage
Posts: 2,360
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12/8/2014 7:39:01 PM
Posted: 2 years ago
At 12/7/2014 10:52:51 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
"Around 530 million years ago, a wide variety of animals burst onto the evolutionary scene in an event known as the Cambrian explosion. In perhaps as few as 10 million years, marine animals evolved most of the basic body forms that we observe in modern groups. Among the organisms preserved in fossils from this time are relatives of crustaceans and starfish, sponges, mollusks, worms, chordates, and algae, exemplified by these taxa from the Burgess Shale."
http://evolution.berkeley.edu...

The Cambrian Explosion was a very significant event. According to what I've learned, we do not see evolution occurring at the pace of the Cambrian explosion any where else in the fossil record. Even the great Richard Dawkins admitted this in one of his books, although I can't remember which one at the moment. Most phyla that exist today were present in the explosion.

So my question is, by what evolutionary mechanism did the Cambrian Explosion occur?

It seems that the standard mutation coupled with natural selection is insufficient to explain it, because these mechanisms cause the speed of evolution to occur at a relatively normal rate, the rate at which we see in the rest of the fossil record. They don't seem to cause evolution at a massive speed, like we see in the Cambrian. It seems that punctuated equilibria would also be inadequate to explain this, unless devastating life-altering events occurred over and over again during the millions of years during the Cambrian explosion. That would be highly unlikely though, however. Thoughts?

The Cambrian Explosion is a 20 million years event, so it is not exactly a "short" amount of time, although it is true that it is still "quick" from an evolutionary perspective if we take the fossil record as a whole. However, we know signicant changes withing a species can happen in only 10 years when regulatory genes are the ones being selected by natural selection, we also know that some anatomical patterns in dogs can be achieved in just one generation.

So the cambrian explosion is a rare evolutive phenomena, but still an evolutive phenomena. On the other hand, in the cambrian we see the emergence of characteristics that bastly improve the survivavility of the species: night vision, swimming apparatus, predation structures, etc. All this could produce a very large change in relationships between species, and increase the speed of natural selection.

And finally, the Cambrian explosion was not such an explosion. Even though in the times of Darwin it was though to be the period in which 11 animal phillum emerged, today's molecular techniques reveal that it was actually just 5 phillum, the other 6 being precambrian philums.
slo1
Posts: 4,361
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12/12/2014 11:38:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
1. Possibly "mere 10 million years" was possibly double or even longer than that. The actual period of the explosion there may have been many branches established that were erroneously though to come to existence during the explosion. (Trying to pin point something in a 20 million year window 550 million years ago is extreme difficult)

2. The Cambrian period was about 50 million years Within that time there quite a bit ecological changes including splitting of super continents, extinctions in the ocean, ect.

3. We are seeing real time changes in a persons life time frame of the finch species on Galapagos islands due to a larva that feeds on them. Two species that have not mated in millions of years are now doinking because of this ecological pressure. Stuff happens when organisms get in situations where ecological changes puts pressure on them.
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,586
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1/17/2016 12:13:37 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 12/12/2014 11:38:05 AM, slo1 wrote:
1. Possibly "mere 10 million years" was possibly double or even longer than that. The actual period of the explosion there may have been many branches established that were erroneously though to come to existence during the explosion. (Trying to pin point something in a 20 million year window 550 million years ago is extreme difficult)

2. The Cambrian period was about 50 million years Within that time there quite a bit ecological changes including splitting of super continents, extinctions in the ocean, ect.

3. We are seeing real time changes in a persons life time frame of the finch species on Galapagos islands due to a larva that feeds on them. Two species that have not mated in millions of years are now doinking because of this ecological pressure. Stuff happens when organisms get in situations where ecological changes puts pressure on them.

It's actually a bit worse than this - the Cambrian explosion has been broken down into several phases and it looks - from the evidence - that the bulk of the diversification may have occurred in six million years.

http://www.evolutionnews.org...

(Taken from From Samuel A. Bowring, John P. Grotzinger, Clark E. Isachsen, Andrew H. Knoll, Shane M. Pelechaty, Peter Kolosov, "Calibrating Rates of Early Cambrian Evolution," Science, Vol. 261 (September 3, 1993))

As you can see two huge diversifications are seen in the fossil record during the Atdabanian and Botomian phases, in fact the Atdabanian phase may have lasted as little as two million years or so, perhaps even less.

The fossils found have no precursors so far as we know. Ediacaran organsims which did predate these phases offer no prospect of serving as precursors.

If we're led by evidence - which we're repeatedly told ad-nauseum by evolutionists, then the evidence is that the diversification was uncaused, spectacular, dramatic and very sudden - some have even suggested the fossil evidence strongly suggests an instantaneous appearance.

That's the evidence people will of course do what they please with it.

Harry.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,647
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1/17/2016 12:25:07 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 12:13:37 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/12/2014 11:38:05 AM, slo1 wrote:
1. Possibly "mere 10 million years" was possibly double or even longer than that. The actual period of the explosion there may have been many branches established that were erroneously though to come to existence during the explosion. (Trying to pin point something in a 20 million year window 550 million years ago is extreme difficult)

2. The Cambrian period was about 50 million years Within that time there quite a bit ecological changes including splitting of super continents, extinctions in the ocean, ect.

3. We are seeing real time changes in a persons life time frame of the finch species on Galapagos islands due to a larva that feeds on them. Two species that have not mated in millions of years are now doinking because of this ecological pressure. Stuff happens when organisms get in situations where ecological changes puts pressure on them.

It's actually a bit worse than this - the Cambrian explosion has been broken down into several phases and it looks - from the evidence - that the bulk of the diversification may have occurred in six million years.

http://www.evolutionnews.org...

(Taken from From Samuel A. Bowring, John P. Grotzinger, Clark E. Isachsen, Andrew H. Knoll, Shane M. Pelechaty, Peter Kolosov, "Calibrating Rates of Early Cambrian Evolution," Science, Vol. 261 (September 3, 1993))

As you can see two huge diversifications are seen in the fossil record during the Atdabanian and Botomian phases, in fact the Atdabanian phase may have lasted as little as two million years or so, perhaps even less.

The fossils found have no precursors so far as we know. Ediacaran organsims which did predate these phases offer no prospect of serving as precursors.

If we're led by evidence - which we're repeatedly told ad-nauseum by evolutionists, then the evidence is that the diversification was uncaused, spectacular, dramatic and very sudden - some have even suggested the fossil evidence strongly suggests an instantaneous appearance.

That's the evidence people will of course do what they please with it.

Like dishonestly misrepresenting it without understanding it, Harry?

Harry.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,586
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1/17/2016 12:41:41 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 12:25:07 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:13:37 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/12/2014 11:38:05 AM, slo1 wrote:
1. Possibly "mere 10 million years" was possibly double or even longer than that. The actual period of the explosion there may have been many branches established that were erroneously though to come to existence during the explosion. (Trying to pin point something in a 20 million year window 550 million years ago is extreme difficult)

2. The Cambrian period was about 50 million years Within that time there quite a bit ecological changes including splitting of super continents, extinctions in the ocean, ect.

3. We are seeing real time changes in a persons life time frame of the finch species on Galapagos islands due to a larva that feeds on them. Two species that have not mated in millions of years are now doinking because of this ecological pressure. Stuff happens when organisms get in situations where ecological changes puts pressure on them.

It's actually a bit worse than this - the Cambrian explosion has been broken down into several phases and it looks - from the evidence - that the bulk of the diversification may have occurred in six million years.

http://www.evolutionnews.org...

(Taken from From Samuel A. Bowring, John P. Grotzinger, Clark E. Isachsen, Andrew H. Knoll, Shane M. Pelechaty, Peter Kolosov, "Calibrating Rates of Early Cambrian Evolution," Science, Vol. 261 (September 3, 1993))

As you can see two huge diversifications are seen in the fossil record during the Atdabanian and Botomian phases, in fact the Atdabanian phase may have lasted as little as two million years or so, perhaps even less.

The fossils found have no precursors so far as we know. Ediacaran organsims which did predate these phases offer no prospect of serving as precursors.

If we're led by evidence - which we're repeatedly told ad-nauseum by evolutionists, then the evidence is that the diversification was uncaused, spectacular, dramatic and very sudden - some have even suggested the fossil evidence strongly suggests an instantaneous appearance.

That's the evidence people will of course do what they please with it.

Like dishonestly misrepresenting it without understanding it, Harry?

Harry.

Ah my reliable accuser, always ready to throw in a personal character attack when the facts don't go his way!

Harry.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,647
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1/17/2016 12:59:02 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 12:41:41 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:25:07 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:13:37 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/12/2014 11:38:05 AM, slo1 wrote:
1. Possibly "mere 10 million years" was possibly double or even longer than that. The actual period of the explosion there may have been many branches established that were erroneously though to come to existence during the explosion. (Trying to pin point something in a 20 million year window 550 million years ago is extreme difficult)

2. The Cambrian period was about 50 million years Within that time there quite a bit ecological changes including splitting of super continents, extinctions in the ocean, ect.

3. We are seeing real time changes in a persons life time frame of the finch species on Galapagos islands due to a larva that feeds on them. Two species that have not mated in millions of years are now doinking because of this ecological pressure. Stuff happens when organisms get in situations where ecological changes puts pressure on them.

It's actually a bit worse than this - the Cambrian explosion has been broken down into several phases and it looks - from the evidence - that the bulk of the diversification may have occurred in six million years.

http://www.evolutionnews.org...

(Taken from From Samuel A. Bowring, John P. Grotzinger, Clark E. Isachsen, Andrew H. Knoll, Shane M. Pelechaty, Peter Kolosov, "Calibrating Rates of Early Cambrian Evolution," Science, Vol. 261 (September 3, 1993))

As you can see two huge diversifications are seen in the fossil record during the Atdabanian and Botomian phases, in fact the Atdabanian phase may have lasted as little as two million years or so, perhaps even less.

The fossils found have no precursors so far as we know. Ediacaran organsims which did predate these phases offer no prospect of serving as precursors.

If we're led by evidence - which we're repeatedly told ad-nauseum by evolutionists, then the evidence is that the diversification was uncaused, spectacular, dramatic and very sudden - some have even suggested the fossil evidence strongly suggests an instantaneous appearance.

That's the evidence people will of course do what they please with it.

Like dishonestly misrepresenting it without understanding it, Harry?

Harry.

Ah my reliable accuser, always ready to throw in a personal character attack when the facts don't go his way!

Facts don't go my way or your way, facts are independent of us, to be accepted or denied. You're here denying them because you don't understand them and you believe they jeopardize your irrational religious beliefs.

Harry.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,586
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1/17/2016 4:07:03 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 12:59:02 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:41:41 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:25:07 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:13:37 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/12/2014 11:38:05 AM, slo1 wrote:
1. Possibly "mere 10 million years" was possibly double or even longer than that. The actual period of the explosion there may have been many branches established that were erroneously though to come to existence during the explosion. (Trying to pin point something in a 20 million year window 550 million years ago is extreme difficult)

2. The Cambrian period was about 50 million years Within that time there quite a bit ecological changes including splitting of super continents, extinctions in the ocean, ect.

3. We are seeing real time changes in a persons life time frame of the finch species on Galapagos islands due to a larva that feeds on them. Two species that have not mated in millions of years are now doinking because of this ecological pressure. Stuff happens when organisms get in situations where ecological changes puts pressure on them.

It's actually a bit worse than this - the Cambrian explosion has been broken down into several phases and it looks - from the evidence - that the bulk of the diversification may have occurred in six million years.

http://www.evolutionnews.org...

(Taken from From Samuel A. Bowring, John P. Grotzinger, Clark E. Isachsen, Andrew H. Knoll, Shane M. Pelechaty, Peter Kolosov, "Calibrating Rates of Early Cambrian Evolution," Science, Vol. 261 (September 3, 1993))

As you can see two huge diversifications are seen in the fossil record during the Atdabanian and Botomian phases, in fact the Atdabanian phase may have lasted as little as two million years or so, perhaps even less.

The fossils found have no precursors so far as we know. Ediacaran organsims which did predate these phases offer no prospect of serving as precursors.

If we're led by evidence - which we're repeatedly told ad-nauseum by evolutionists, then the evidence is that the diversification was uncaused, spectacular, dramatic and very sudden - some have even suggested the fossil evidence strongly suggests an instantaneous appearance.

That's the evidence people will of course do what they please with it.

Like dishonestly misrepresenting it without understanding it, Harry?

Harry.

Ah my reliable accuser, always ready to throw in a personal character attack when the facts don't go his way!

Facts don't go my way or your way, facts are independent of us, to be accepted or denied. You're here denying them because you don't understand them and you believe they jeopardize your irrational religious beliefs.

Harry.

You've said zero so far about the actual topic - just sayin.

Harry.
Skynet
Posts: 674
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1/17/2016 5:52:46 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
Isn't it believed that these "explosions" occurred because of a burst of radiation or other mutanogenic large scale event, like the magnetic poles switching? If so, it would seem we could replicate that in an ecosystem of fast breeding microbes. You could bring up the MSU E. Coli experiment, but I've never seen anything about that guy intentionally trying to cause mutations. You'd also want to use more than one species in the environment, I would think.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,647
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1/17/2016 2:27:27 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 4:07:03 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:59:02 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:41:41 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:25:07 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:13:37 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/12/2014 11:38:05 AM, slo1 wrote:
1. Possibly "mere 10 million years" was possibly double or even longer than that. The actual period of the explosion there may have been many branches established that were erroneously though to come to existence during the explosion. (Trying to pin point something in a 20 million year window 550 million years ago is extreme difficult)

2. The Cambrian period was about 50 million years Within that time there quite a bit ecological changes including splitting of super continents, extinctions in the ocean, ect.

3. We are seeing real time changes in a persons life time frame of the finch species on Galapagos islands due to a larva that feeds on them. Two species that have not mated in millions of years are now doinking because of this ecological pressure. Stuff happens when organisms get in situations where ecological changes puts pressure on them.

It's actually a bit worse than this - the Cambrian explosion has been broken down into several phases and it looks - from the evidence - that the bulk of the diversification may have occurred in six million years.

http://www.evolutionnews.org...

(Taken from From Samuel A. Bowring, John P. Grotzinger, Clark E. Isachsen, Andrew H. Knoll, Shane M. Pelechaty, Peter Kolosov, "Calibrating Rates of Early Cambrian Evolution," Science, Vol. 261 (September 3, 1993))

As you can see two huge diversifications are seen in the fossil record during the Atdabanian and Botomian phases, in fact the Atdabanian phase may have lasted as little as two million years or so, perhaps even less.

The fossils found have no precursors so far as we know. Ediacaran organsims which did predate these phases offer no prospect of serving as precursors.

If we're led by evidence - which we're repeatedly told ad-nauseum by evolutionists, then the evidence is that the diversification was uncaused, spectacular, dramatic and very sudden - some have even suggested the fossil evidence strongly suggests an instantaneous appearance.

That's the evidence people will of course do what they please with it.

Like dishonestly misrepresenting it without understanding it, Harry?

Harry.

Ah my reliable accuser, always ready to throw in a personal character attack when the facts don't go his way!

Facts don't go my way or your way, facts are independent of us, to be accepted or denied. You're here denying them because you don't understand them and you believe they jeopardize your irrational religious beliefs.

Harry.

You've said zero so far about the actual topic - just sayin.

And, you distort, misrepresent and insult the actual topic - just sayin.

Harry.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,586
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1/17/2016 3:05:28 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 2:27:27 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 4:07:03 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:59:02 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:41:41 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:25:07 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:13:37 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/12/2014 11:38:05 AM, slo1 wrote:
1. Possibly "mere 10 million years" was possibly double or even longer than that. The actual period of the explosion there may have been many branches established that were erroneously though to come to existence during the explosion. (Trying to pin point something in a 20 million year window 550 million years ago is extreme difficult)

2. The Cambrian period was about 50 million years Within that time there quite a bit ecological changes including splitting of super continents, extinctions in the ocean, ect.

3. We are seeing real time changes in a persons life time frame of the finch species on Galapagos islands due to a larva that feeds on them. Two species that have not mated in millions of years are now doinking because of this ecological pressure. Stuff happens when organisms get in situations where ecological changes puts pressure on them.

It's actually a bit worse than this - the Cambrian explosion has been broken down into several phases and it looks - from the evidence - that the bulk of the diversification may have occurred in six million years.

http://www.evolutionnews.org...

(Taken from From Samuel A. Bowring, John P. Grotzinger, Clark E. Isachsen, Andrew H. Knoll, Shane M. Pelechaty, Peter Kolosov, "Calibrating Rates of Early Cambrian Evolution," Science, Vol. 261 (September 3, 1993))

As you can see two huge diversifications are seen in the fossil record during the Atdabanian and Botomian phases, in fact the Atdabanian phase may have lasted as little as two million years or so, perhaps even less.

The fossils found have no precursors so far as we know. Ediacaran organsims which did predate these phases offer no prospect of serving as precursors.

If we're led by evidence - which we're repeatedly told ad-nauseum by evolutionists, then the evidence is that the diversification was uncaused, spectacular, dramatic and very sudden - some have even suggested the fossil evidence strongly suggests an instantaneous appearance.

That's the evidence people will of course do what they please with it.

Like dishonestly misrepresenting it without understanding it, Harry?

Harry.

Ah my reliable accuser, always ready to throw in a personal character attack when the facts don't go his way!

Facts don't go my way or your way, facts are independent of us, to be accepted or denied. You're here denying them because you don't understand them and you believe they jeopardize your irrational religious beliefs.

Harry.

You've said zero so far about the actual topic - just sayin.

And, you distort, misrepresent and insult the actual topic - just sayin.

Harry.

Wow, that's an impressive, rigorous and well argued rebuttal except for the fact it's unrelated to the subject under discussion. You seem to want to make a fool of yourself, well that's your business.

Harry.
Aran55633
Posts: 110
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1/17/2016 3:33:48 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 12:13:37 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/12/2014 11:38:05 AM, slo1 wrote:
1. Possibly "mere 10 million years" was possibly double or even longer than that. The actual period of the explosion there may have been many branches established that were erroneously though to come to existence during the explosion. (Trying to pin point something in a 20 million year window 550 million years ago is extreme difficult)

2. The Cambrian period was about 50 million years Within that time there quite a bit ecological changes including splitting of super continents, extinctions in the ocean, ect.

3. We are seeing real time changes in a persons life time frame of the finch species on Galapagos islands due to a larva that feeds on them. Two species that have not mated in millions of years are now doinking because of this ecological pressure. Stuff happens when organisms get in situations where ecological changes puts pressure on them.

It's actually a bit worse than this - the Cambrian explosion has been broken down into several phases and it looks - from the evidence - that the bulk of the diversification may have occurred in six million years.

http://www.evolutionnews.org...

(Taken from From Samuel A. Bowring, John P. Grotzinger, Clark E. Isachsen, Andrew H. Knoll, Shane M. Pelechaty, Peter Kolosov, "Calibrating Rates of Early Cambrian Evolution," Science, Vol. 261 (September 3, 1993))

As you can see two huge diversifications are seen in the fossil record during the Atdabanian and Botomian phases, in fact the Atdabanian phase may have lasted as little as two million years or so, perhaps even less.

The fossils found have no precursors so far as we know. Ediacaran organsims which did predate these phases offer no prospect of serving as precursors.

If we're led by evidence - which we're repeatedly told ad-nauseum by evolutionists, then the evidence is that the diversification was uncaused, spectacular, dramatic and very sudden - some have even suggested the fossil evidence strongly suggests an instantaneous appearance.

That's the evidence people will of course do what they please with it.

Harry.

Burzmali and Otokage have both raised very good points.

--

Erwin (2007) looked into, among other things, the relative diversity of clades today compared to that of those same clades during the Cambrian, and found that the morphological disparity of these clades wasn't much lower during the Cambrian than it is today.

And that's simply based on what material we have available to us from the Cambrian. If we had a more complete understanding of life during the Cambrian, the relative diversity of these taxa could only increase.

The implications are that most groups seem to explore their morphological limits, and then fill in the gaps. This would help to explain the explosive rate of diversification, if there indeed was one.

But absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. The fossil record from before the Cambrian is very incomplete. A lack of any material from these groups or their precursors from this time isn't necessarily evidence that they were absent. Therefore, the supposed explosion of biodiversity could simply be a construct of fossil preservation bias, and the level of adaptive radiation which occurred may not have been as significant as thought.

--

Metazoans had differentiated in their morphology some by this point. No fewer than eight different groups of multicellular eukaryotes had already appeared more than 150 million years - yes, 150 million years - prior, and somewhat more complex animals which had developed the ability to move themselves across the seafloor appeared tens of millions of years prior (Erwin and Valentine 2013). Again, the apparent rapid morphological diversification may be just that; apparent, but not actual.

--

Nevertheless, with all that said, the evidence available to us now does seem to indicate an accelerated rate of diversification. Why?

The best explanation, as far as I'm concerned, is as follows:

With all mass extinctions, there is always a subsequent period of rapid diversification among surviving clades, which stands to reason if we look at this situation as being a construct of evolution. A period of adaptive radiation occurred after the P-T boundary event, the T-J boundary event, the K-Pg boundary event, the Cambrian-Ordovician boundary event, etc. Indeed, an extinction event isn't even always necessary; faunal turnovers, like the one that occurred with the Jurassic-Cretaceous boundary event, are known to occur.

This makes no sense if we assume the existence of a god. Why create this fauna and flora, then allow it to die off (or even kill it off), replace it with new organisms, which then disappear and are replaced with new forms, which then disappear and are replaced. . . Ad infinitum. An omniscient and benevolent being is doing this? I think not.

Niches and resources become available, and so certain groups will be presented with new opportunities. New forms will be spun off of these groups and will fill those niches. This adaptive radiation should continue to move forward for as long as these resources remain available.

What we have here is something sorta like that. As new forms appeared, they filled niches that had never before been filled and affected the environment in a way never before seen. This allowed for the successive production, and then successive use, of more and more resources, and so increasing biodiversity had a positive feedback affect, helping to generate further biodiversity (Meysman, Middelburg and Heip 2006; Erwin and Valentine 2013).

Erwin, D. H. 2007. Disparity: Morphological pattern and developmental context. Palaeontology 50:57-73.

Erwin, D. H., Valentine, J. W. 2013. The Cambrian Explosion: The Construction of Animal Biodiversity. Roberts and Company Publishers, Inc.

Meysman, F. J. R., Middelburg, J. J., and Heip, C. H. R. 2006. Bioturbation: A fresh look at Darwin's last idea. Trends in Ecology and Evolution 21:688-95.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,647
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1/17/2016 3:39:42 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 3:05:28 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 2:27:27 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 4:07:03 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:59:02 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:41:41 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:25:07 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:13:37 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/12/2014 11:38:05 AM, slo1 wrote:
1. Possibly "mere 10 million years" was possibly double or even longer than that. The actual period of the explosion there may have been many branches established that were erroneously though to come to existence during the explosion. (Trying to pin point something in a 20 million year window 550 million years ago is extreme difficult)

2. The Cambrian period was about 50 million years Within that time there quite a bit ecological changes including splitting of super continents, extinctions in the ocean, ect.

3. We are seeing real time changes in a persons life time frame of the finch species on Galapagos islands due to a larva that feeds on them. Two species that have not mated in millions of years are now doinking because of this ecological pressure. Stuff happens when organisms get in situations where ecological changes puts pressure on them.

It's actually a bit worse than this - the Cambrian explosion has been broken down into several phases and it looks - from the evidence - that the bulk of the diversification may have occurred in six million years.

http://www.evolutionnews.org...

(Taken from From Samuel A. Bowring, John P. Grotzinger, Clark E. Isachsen, Andrew H. Knoll, Shane M. Pelechaty, Peter Kolosov, "Calibrating Rates of Early Cambrian Evolution," Science, Vol. 261 (September 3, 1993))

As you can see two huge diversifications are seen in the fossil record during the Atdabanian and Botomian phases, in fact the Atdabanian phase may have lasted as little as two million years or so, perhaps even less.

The fossils found have no precursors so far as we know. Ediacaran organsims which did predate these phases offer no prospect of serving as precursors.

If we're led by evidence - which we're repeatedly told ad-nauseum by evolutionists, then the evidence is that the diversification was uncaused, spectacular, dramatic and very sudden - some have even suggested the fossil evidence strongly suggests an instantaneous appearance.

That's the evidence people will of course do what they please with it.

Like dishonestly misrepresenting it without understanding it, Harry?

Harry.

Ah my reliable accuser, always ready to throw in a personal character attack when the facts don't go his way!

Facts don't go my way or your way, facts are independent of us, to be accepted or denied. You're here denying them because you don't understand them and you believe they jeopardize your irrational religious beliefs.

Harry.

You've said zero so far about the actual topic - just sayin.

And, you distort, misrepresent and insult the actual topic - just sayin.

Harry.

Wow, that's an impressive, rigorous and well argued rebuttal except for the fact it's unrelated to the subject under discussion.

The subject under discussion is completely foreign to you. All you can manage is to deny the facts and evidence without understanding any of it. A rebuttal to your ignorance and incredulity are not required.

You seem to want to make a fool of yourself, well that's your business.

And yet, a fool is the one who denies the facts and evidence without understanding any of it.

Harry.

Is there some reason why you keep signing your name? Vanity?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,586
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1/17/2016 4:18:14 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 3:39:42 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 3:05:28 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 2:27:27 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 4:07:03 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:59:02 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:41:41 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:25:07 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:13:37 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/12/2014 11:38:05 AM, slo1 wrote:
1. Possibly "mere 10 million years" was possibly double or even longer than that. The actual period of the explosion there may have been many branches established that were erroneously though to come to existence during the explosion. (Trying to pin point something in a 20 million year window 550 million years ago is extreme difficult)

2. The Cambrian period was about 50 million years Within that time there quite a bit ecological changes including splitting of super continents, extinctions in the ocean, ect.

3. We are seeing real time changes in a persons life time frame of the finch species on Galapagos islands due to a larva that feeds on them. Two species that have not mated in millions of years are now doinking because of this ecological pressure. Stuff happens when organisms get in situations where ecological changes puts pressure on them.

It's actually a bit worse than this - the Cambrian explosion has been broken down into several phases and it looks - from the evidence - that the bulk of the diversification may have occurred in six million years.

http://www.evolutionnews.org...

(Taken from From Samuel A. Bowring, John P. Grotzinger, Clark E. Isachsen, Andrew H. Knoll, Shane M. Pelechaty, Peter Kolosov, "Calibrating Rates of Early Cambrian Evolution," Science, Vol. 261 (September 3, 1993))

As you can see two huge diversifications are seen in the fossil record during the Atdabanian and Botomian phases, in fact the Atdabanian phase may have lasted as little as two million years or so, perhaps even less.

The fossils found have no precursors so far as we know. Ediacaran organsims which did predate these phases offer no prospect of serving as precursors.

If we're led by evidence - which we're repeatedly told ad-nauseum by evolutionists, then the evidence is that the diversification was uncaused, spectacular, dramatic and very sudden - some have even suggested the fossil evidence strongly suggests an instantaneous appearance.

That's the evidence people will of course do what they please with it.

Like dishonestly misrepresenting it without understanding it, Harry?

Harry.

Ah my reliable accuser, always ready to throw in a personal character attack when the facts don't go his way!

Facts don't go my way or your way, facts are independent of us, to be accepted or denied. You're here denying them because you don't understand them and you believe they jeopardize your irrational religious beliefs.

Harry.

You've said zero so far about the actual topic - just sayin.

And, you distort, misrepresent and insult the actual topic - just sayin.

Harry.

Wow, that's an impressive, rigorous and well argued rebuttal except for the fact it's unrelated to the subject under discussion.

The subject under discussion is completely foreign to you. All you can manage is to deny the facts and evidence without understanding any of it. A rebuttal to your ignorance and incredulity are not required.

You seem to want to make a fool of yourself, well that's your business.

And yet, a fool is the one who denies the facts and evidence without understanding any of it.

Harry.

Is there some reason why you keep signing your name? Vanity?

Your ignorance and incredulity of the subject matter do not allow logical discourse as all you do is deny the facts and evidence. Come back when you've educated yourself.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,647
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1/17/2016 4:34:48 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 4:18:14 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 3:39:42 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 3:05:28 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 2:27:27 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 4:07:03 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:59:02 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:41:41 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:25:07 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:13:37 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/12/2014 11:38:05 AM, slo1 wrote:
1. Possibly "mere 10 million years" was possibly double or even longer than that. The actual period of the explosion there may have been many branches established that were erroneously though to come to existence during the explosion. (Trying to pin point something in a 20 million year window 550 million years ago is extreme difficult)

2. The Cambrian period was about 50 million years Within that time there quite a bit ecological changes including splitting of super continents, extinctions in the ocean, ect.

3. We are seeing real time changes in a persons life time frame of the finch species on Galapagos islands due to a larva that feeds on them. Two species that have not mated in millions of years are now doinking because of this ecological pressure. Stuff happens when organisms get in situations where ecological changes puts pressure on them.

It's actually a bit worse than this - the Cambrian explosion has been broken down into several phases and it looks - from the evidence - that the bulk of the diversification may have occurred in six million years.

http://www.evolutionnews.org...

(Taken from From Samuel A. Bowring, John P. Grotzinger, Clark E. Isachsen, Andrew H. Knoll, Shane M. Pelechaty, Peter Kolosov, "Calibrating Rates of Early Cambrian Evolution," Science, Vol. 261 (September 3, 1993))

As you can see two huge diversifications are seen in the fossil record during the Atdabanian and Botomian phases, in fact the Atdabanian phase may have lasted as little as two million years or so, perhaps even less.

The fossils found have no precursors so far as we know. Ediacaran organsims which did predate these phases offer no prospect of serving as precursors.

If we're led by evidence - which we're repeatedly told ad-nauseum by evolutionists, then the evidence is that the diversification was uncaused, spectacular, dramatic and very sudden - some have even suggested the fossil evidence strongly suggests an instantaneous appearance.

That's the evidence people will of course do what they please with it.

Like dishonestly misrepresenting it without understanding it, Harry?

Harry.

Ah my reliable accuser, always ready to throw in a personal character attack when the facts don't go his way!

Facts don't go my way or your way, facts are independent of us, to be accepted or denied. You're here denying them because you don't understand them and you believe they jeopardize your irrational religious beliefs.

Harry.

You've said zero so far about the actual topic - just sayin.

And, you distort, misrepresent and insult the actual topic - just sayin.

Harry.

Wow, that's an impressive, rigorous and well argued rebuttal except for the fact it's unrelated to the subject under discussion.

The subject under discussion is completely foreign to you. All you can manage is to deny the facts and evidence without understanding any of it. A rebuttal to your ignorance and incredulity are not required.

You seem to want to make a fool of yourself, well that's your business.

And yet, a fool is the one who denies the facts and evidence without understanding any of it.

Harry.

Is there some reason why you keep signing your name? Vanity?

Your ignorance and incredulity of the subject matter do not allow logical discourse as all you do is deny the facts and evidence. Come back when you've educated yourself.

Projecting your own inadequacies onto others is just childish, Hairy.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,586
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1/17/2016 4:47:21 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 4:34:48 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 4:18:14 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 3:39:42 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 3:05:28 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 2:27:27 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 4:07:03 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:59:02 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:41:41 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:25:07 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/17/2016 12:13:37 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/12/2014 11:38:05 AM, slo1 wrote:
1. Possibly "mere 10 million years" was possibly double or even longer than that. The actual period of the explosion there may have been many branches established that were erroneously though to come to existence during the explosion. (Trying to pin point something in a 20 million year window 550 million years ago is extreme difficult)

2. The Cambrian period was about 50 million years Within that time there quite a bit ecological changes including splitting of super continents, extinctions in the ocean, ect.

3. We are seeing real time changes in a persons life time frame of the finch species on Galapagos islands due to a larva that feeds on them. Two species that have not mated in millions of years are now doinking because of this ecological pressure. Stuff happens when organisms get in situations where ecological changes puts pressure on them.

It's actually a bit worse than this - the Cambrian explosion has been broken down into several phases and it looks - from the evidence - that the bulk of the diversification may have occurred in six million years.

http://www.evolutionnews.org...

(Taken from From Samuel A. Bowring, John P. Grotzinger, Clark E. Isachsen, Andrew H. Knoll, Shane M. Pelechaty, Peter Kolosov, "Calibrating Rates of Early Cambrian Evolution," Science, Vol. 261 (September 3, 1993))

As you can see two huge diversifications are seen in the fossil record during the Atdabanian and Botomian phases, in fact the Atdabanian phase may have lasted as little as two million years or so, perhaps even less.

The fossils found have no precursors so far as we know. Ediacaran organsims which did predate these phases offer no prospect of serving as precursors.

If we're led by evidence - which we're repeatedly told ad-nauseum by evolutionists, then the evidence is that the diversification was uncaused, spectacular, dramatic and very sudden - some have even suggested the fossil evidence strongly suggests an instantaneous appearance.

That's the evidence people will of course do what they please with it.

Like dishonestly misrepresenting it without understanding it, Harry?

Harry.

Ah my reliable accuser, always ready to throw in a personal character attack when the facts don't go his way!

Facts don't go my way or your way, facts are independent of us, to be accepted or denied. You're here denying them because you don't understand them and you believe they jeopardize your irrational religious beliefs.

Harry.

You've said zero so far about the actual topic - just sayin.

And, you distort, misrepresent and insult the actual topic - just sayin.

Harry.

Wow, that's an impressive, rigorous and well argued rebuttal except for the fact it's unrelated to the subject under discussion.

The subject under discussion is completely foreign to you. All you can manage is to deny the facts and evidence without understanding any of it. A rebuttal to your ignorance and incredulity are not required.

You seem to want to make a fool of yourself, well that's your business.

And yet, a fool is the one who denies the facts and evidence without understanding any of it.

Harry.

Is there some reason why you keep signing your name? Vanity?

Your ignorance and incredulity of the subject matter do not allow logical discourse as all you do is deny the facts and evidence. Come back when you've educated yourself.

Projecting your own inadequacies onto others is just childish, Hairy.

Your ignorance and incredulity of the subject matter do not allow logical discourse as all you do is deny the facts and evidence. Come back when you've educated yourself.
distraff
Posts: 1,005
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1/17/2016 5:59:29 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 12/7/2014 10:52:51 PM, a_drumming_dog wrote:
"Around 530 million years ago, a wide variety of animals burst onto the evolutionary scene in an event known as the Cambrian explosion. In perhaps as few as 10 million years, marine animals evolved most of the basic body forms that we observe in modern groups. Among the organisms preserved in fossils from this time are relatives of crustaceans and starfish, sponges, mollusks, worms, chordates, and algae, exemplified by these taxa from the Burgess Shale."
http://evolution.berkeley.edu...

The Cambrian Explosion was a very significant event. According to what I've learned, we do not see evolution occurring at the pace of the Cambrian explosion any where else in the fossil record. Even the great Richard Dawkins admitted this in one of his books, although I can't remember which one at the moment. Most phyla that exist today were present in the explosion.

So my question is, by what evolutionary mechanism did the Cambrian Explosion occur?

It seems that the standard mutation coupled with natural selection is insufficient to explain it, because these mechanisms cause the speed of evolution to occur at a relatively normal rate, the rate at which we see in the rest of the fossil record. They don't seem to cause evolution at a massive speed, like we see in the Cambrian. It seems that punctuated equilibria would also be inadequate to explain this, unless devastating life-altering events occurred over and over again during the millions of years during the Cambrian explosion. That would be highly unlikely though, however. Thoughts?

The Cambrian explosion is thought to have taken 30 million years. This is plenty of time for mutations to happens, especially with these smaller organisms that have very short generations. This is 5 times as long as it took to evolve humans (6 million years). If the average hominid generation is 15 years and the average generation for these sea creations is 1 year, then human evolution took 400,000 generations while the cambrian explosion took 30,000,000 generations. This is 75 times as many generations as human evolution.

Also, the fossil record back then is really sketchy so there might be transitions even before this 30 million year period. Also, if the transitionals did not have hard shells (which is first seen in the Cambrian Explosion) they would not have fossilized and survived for 600 million years in the fossil record. This growth likely happened because of the introduction of oxygen into the atmosphere which allows for larger organisms.
http://www.pbs.org...
slo1
Posts: 4,361
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1/18/2016 1:12:10 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/17/2016 12:13:37 AM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/12/2014 11:38:05 AM, slo1 wrote:
1. Possibly "mere 10 million years" was possibly double or even longer than that. The actual period of the explosion there may have been many branches established that were erroneously though to come to existence during the explosion. (Trying to pin point something in a 20 million year window 550 million years ago is extreme difficult)

2. The Cambrian period was about 50 million years Within that time there quite a bit ecological changes including splitting of super continents, extinctions in the ocean, ect.

3. We are seeing real time changes in a persons life time frame of the finch species on Galapagos islands due to a larva that feeds on them. Two species that have not mated in millions of years are now doinking because of this ecological pressure. Stuff happens when organisms get in situations where ecological changes puts pressure on them.

It's actually a bit worse than this - the Cambrian explosion has been broken down into several phases and it looks - from the evidence - that the bulk of the diversification may have occurred in six million years.

http://www.evolutionnews.org...

(Taken from From Samuel A. Bowring, John P. Grotzinger, Clark E. Isachsen, Andrew H. Knoll, Shane M. Pelechaty, Peter Kolosov, "Calibrating Rates of Early Cambrian Evolution," Science, Vol. 261 (September 3, 1993))

As you can see two huge diversifications are seen in the fossil record during the Atdabanian and Botomian phases, in fact the Atdabanian phase may have lasted as little as two million years or so, perhaps even less.

The fossils found have no precursors so far as we know. Ediacaran organsims which did predate these phases offer no prospect of serving as precursors.

If we're led by evidence - which we're repeatedly told ad-nauseum by evolutionists, then the evidence is that the diversification was uncaused, spectacular, dramatic and very sudden - some have even suggested the fossil evidence strongly suggests an instantaneous appearance.

The fundamental problem you have is that your evidence is plucked to support your view point. A good scientist develops a sense of humility and with it an understanding that we have not uncovered all there is to know. He will update his opinion as new data is uncovered. We are far from uncovering all the knowledge we can uncover from the Cambrian Explosion. There are even newer studies that use new technology to date rocks which is more accurate than the one you posted from 1990's. Take a look at it. ITs conclusion or "evidence" if you prefer is a bit different than what you got from the 1990's study. Evolutionnews.com really needs to get updated.

University of California - Santa Barbara. (2010, November 10). Cambrian Explosion: New timeline for appearances of skeletal animals in fossil record.

That's the evidence people will of course do what they please with it.

Harry.