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Kyle_the_Heretic
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12/12/2014 12:07:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I have seen mentioned in a few posts that matter and energy can neither be created (made from nothing) or destroyed (obliterated from existence). This makes sense, but I'm hoping for a bit of elaboration.

Is this to say that matter and energy are infinite, and never 'not existed'?
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Kyle_the_Heretic
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12/12/2014 2:05:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
A conversation on this side of the monitor occurred that prompted me to point out that I have read up on the first law of thermodynamics, and the law of conservation of matter and energy. I'm not looking for those definitions, but realize they may need to be used in the responses.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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12/12/2014 4:06:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/12/2014 12:07:22 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
I have seen mentioned in a few posts that matter and energy can neither be created (made from nothing) or destroyed (obliterated from existence). This makes sense, but I'm hoping for a bit of elaboration.

Is this to say that matter and energy are infinite, and never 'not existed'?

As a general rule no, matter and energy can not be created or destroyed. However, matter can turn into energy, although I wouldn't consider that "destroying it". There will always be an equivalence between matter and energy (E=mc^2)

Also if you fuse a particle with an antiparticle, both anihilate each other, and you have energy in return.

So, imo, yes, matter and energy are eternal.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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12/12/2014 4:48:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/12/2014 4:06:50 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 12/12/2014 12:07:22 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
I have seen mentioned in a few posts that matter and energy can neither be created (made from nothing) or destroyed (obliterated from existence). This makes sense, but I'm hoping for a bit of elaboration.

Is this to say that matter and energy are infinite, and never 'not existed'?

As a general rule no, matter and energy can not be created or destroyed. However, matter can turn into energy, although I wouldn't consider that "destroying it". There will always be an equivalence between matter and energy (E=mc^2)

Also if you fuse a particle with an antiparticle, both anihilate each other, and you have energy in return.

So, imo, yes, matter and energy are eternal.

Thank you for an intelligent response. This next question might prompt some to offer a religious response, and I'm probably stating this in vain, but I would very much like to avoid any religious attachments to this topic, and keep it purely scientific.

Could life (the force that enables our bodies to function, think, feel, and experience senses) be defined as an indestructible, infinite, energy?
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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12/12/2014 5:07:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/12/2014 4:48:50 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 12/12/2014 4:06:50 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 12/12/2014 12:07:22 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
I have seen mentioned in a few posts that matter and energy can neither be created (made from nothing) or destroyed (obliterated from existence). This makes sense, but I'm hoping for a bit of elaboration.

Is this to say that matter and energy are infinite, and never 'not existed'?

As a general rule no, matter and energy can not be created or destroyed. However, matter can turn into energy, although I wouldn't consider that "destroying it". There will always be an equivalence between matter and energy (E=mc^2)

Also if you fuse a particle with an antiparticle, both anihilate each other, and you have energy in return.

So, imo, yes, matter and energy are eternal.

Thank you for an intelligent response. This next question might prompt some to offer a religious response, and I'm probably stating this in vain, but I would very much like to avoid any religious attachments to this topic, and keep it purely scientific.

You are welcome. I hope you can achieve the goal of "no-religious responses", but I'm skeptical about it, lol.

Could life (the force that enables our bodies to function, think, feel, and experience senses) be defined as an indestructible, infinite, energy?

Imo, life is not a force, but a set of capacities. When matter is capable of reproduction and autopoiesis (mantaining its structure and functions) then we say that the mentioned matter is alive, and we call it an organism. Indeed we need energy to "function, think, feel and experience", particularly chemical energy (energy released by breaking the links that form molecules). Chemical energy, as any other kind of energy, is, imo, eternal, and the matter of living organisms, as any other kind of matter, is also imo eternal.

Hope it helps.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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12/12/2014 5:49:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/12/2014 5:07:12 PM, Otokage wrote:
Thank you for an intelligent response. This next question might prompt some to offer a religious response, and I'm probably stating this in vain, but I would very much like to avoid any religious attachments to this topic, and keep it purely scientific.

You are welcome. I hope you can achieve the goal of "no-religious responses", but I'm skeptical about it, lol.

Could life (the force that enables our bodies to function, think, feel, and experience senses) be defined as an indestructible, infinite, energy?

Imo, life is not a force, but a set of capacities. When matter is capable of reproduction and autopoiesis (mantaining its structure and functions) then we say that the mentioned matter is alive, and we call it an organism. Indeed we need energy to "function, think, feel and experience", particularly chemical energy (energy released by breaking the links that form molecules). Chemical energy, as any other kind of energy, is, imo, eternal, and the matter of living organisms, as any other kind of matter, is also imo eternal.

Hope it helps.

It mostly helped. Sadly, I am not scientifically inclined, and struggle for understanding. As such I don't comprehend how a "set of capacities" can be responsible for consciousness, unless I completely misunderstood you, and you meant something else entirely. I believe I caught the gist of the remainder of your response.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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12/12/2014 6:00:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/12/2014 5:49:55 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 12/12/2014 5:07:12 PM, Otokage wrote:
Thank you for an intelligent response. This next question might prompt some to offer a religious response, and I'm probably stating this in vain, but I would very much like to avoid any religious attachments to this topic, and keep it purely scientific.

You are welcome. I hope you can achieve the goal of "no-religious responses", but I'm skeptical about it, lol.

Could life (the force that enables our bodies to function, think, feel, and experience senses) be defined as an indestructible, infinite, energy?

Imo, life is not a force, but a set of capacities. When matter is capable of reproduction and autopoiesis (mantaining its structure and functions) then we say that the mentioned matter is alive, and we call it an organism. Indeed we need energy to "function, think, feel and experience", particularly chemical energy (energy released by breaking the links that form molecules). Chemical energy, as any other kind of energy, is, imo, eternal, and the matter of living organisms, as any other kind of matter, is also imo eternal.

Hope it helps.

It mostly helped. Sadly, I am not scientifically inclined, and struggle for understanding. As such I don't comprehend how a "set of capacities" can be responsible for consciousness, unless I completely misunderstood you, and you meant something else entirely. I believe I caught the gist of the remainder of your response.

I see, but if you only consider alive those things that have consciousness, then there's a lot of organisms that you would consider to be dead, like bacteria, for example.

Now if you are asking if consciousness can be viewed as something "eternal", it is a tricky question. On one part, consciousness is born from a particular organization of matter (say a highly developed nervous system) that uses chemical energy to function. So, in this sense it is simply matter and energy, and thus it would be eternal, but not continuous, as consciousness only appears when this matter and energy are organized in a particular way (again, a nervous system).
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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12/12/2014 6:12:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/12/2014 12:07:22 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
I have seen mentioned in a few posts that matter and energy can neither be created (made from nothing) or destroyed (obliterated from existence). This makes sense, but I'm hoping for a bit of elaboration.

Is this to say that matter and energy are infinite, and never 'not existed'?

According to the quantum eternity theorum.

IF the energy of the universe is above 0, then the universe is eternal (thus the energy/matter never 'didn't exist)
IF the energy of the universe is 0, then time is emergent

I think the latter horn is most likely true, since the 0 energy universe model is so ridiculously elegant, and has enormous explanatory power of the flatness of the universe, dark energy, etc.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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12/12/2014 6:30:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/12/2014 6:00:34 PM, Otokage wrote:
It mostly helped. Sadly, I am not scientifically inclined, and struggle for understanding. As such I don't comprehend how a "set of capacities" can be responsible for consciousness, unless I completely misunderstood you, and you meant something else entirely. I believe I caught the gist of the remainder of your response.

I see, but if you only consider alive those things that have consciousness, then there's a lot of organisms that you would consider to be dead, like bacteria, for example.

Now if you are asking if consciousness can be viewed as something "eternal", it is a tricky question. On one part, consciousness is born from a particular organization of matter (say a highly developed nervous system) that uses chemical energy to function. So, in this sense it is simply matter and energy, and thus it would be eternal, but not continuous, as consciousness only appears when this matter and energy are organized in a particular way (again, a nervous system).

Forgive me, I use terms loosely. I was referring to "awareness" in its varied degrees, including an unconscious awareness, i.e., I interact therefore I am, but I'm not aware of that, save I must interact.

But that's veering from the topic.

It may be that I jumped ahead of myself, and needed to begin with a more specific question relating to energy and matter.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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12/12/2014 6:32:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/12/2014 6:12:37 PM, Envisage wrote:
According to the quantum eternity theorum.

IF the energy of the universe is above 0, then the universe is eternal (thus the energy/matter never 'didn't exist)
IF the energy of the universe is 0, then time is emergent

I think the latter horn is most likely true, since the 0 energy universe model is so ridiculously elegant, and has enormous explanatory power of the flatness of the universe, dark energy, etc.

Okay, way over my head. I'm actually going to have to look all that up.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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12/12/2014 6:35:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/12/2014 6:32:16 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 12/12/2014 6:12:37 PM, Envisage wrote:
According to the quantum eternity theorum.

IF the energy of the universe is above 0, then the universe is eternal (thus the energy/matter never 'didn't exist)
IF the energy of the universe is 0, then time is emergent

I think the latter horn is most likely true, since the 0 energy universe model is so ridiculously elegant, and has enormous explanatory power of the flatness of the universe, dark energy, etc.

Okay, way over my head. I'm actually going to have to look all that up.

I am sorry, my bad.

Okay, let's take the statement:

"Energy/Matter cannot be created or destroyed"

Then we can do a syllogism:

1. Energy/Matter cannot be created or destroyed
2. Energy/matter in our universe exists
C. The energy/matter in our universe that exists was never created, and can never be destroyed

Thus, they are eternal assuming there is a net positive amount of energy/matter

However in relativity, there is such a thing as gravity wells etc, where the energy is negative. Thus the universe could have 0 overall energy. If that is the case, then energy/matter could be finite in the past.
Kyle_the_Heretic
Posts: 748
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12/12/2014 9:36:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/12/2014 6:35:39 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/12/2014 6:32:16 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 12/12/2014 6:12:37 PM, Envisage wrote:
According to the quantum eternity theorum.

IF the energy of the universe is above 0, then the universe is eternal (thus the energy/matter never 'didn't exist)
IF the energy of the universe is 0, then time is emergent

I think the latter horn is most likely true, since the 0 energy universe model is so ridiculously elegant, and has enormous explanatory power of the flatness of the universe, dark energy, etc.

Okay, way over my head. I'm actually going to have to look all that up.

I am sorry, my bad.

Okay, let's take the statement:

"Energy/Matter cannot be created or destroyed"

Then we can do a syllogism:

1. Energy/Matter cannot be created or destroyed
2. Energy/matter in our universe exists
C. The energy/matter in our universe that exists was never created, and can never be destroyed

Thus, they are eternal assuming there is a net positive amount of energy/matter

However in relativity, there is such a thing as gravity wells etc, where the energy is negative. Thus the universe could have 0 overall energy. If that is the case, then energy/matter could be finite in the past.

If I'm understanding that correctly, it sounds as though there could be a finite infinity. Which creates something of a paradox.
Thinking is extremely taxing on the gullible, and it takes hours to clear the smoke.
tabularasa
Posts: 200
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12/13/2014 9:13:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/12/2014 6:35:39 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/12/2014 6:32:16 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 12/12/2014 6:12:37 PM, Envisage wrote:
According to the quantum eternity theorum.

IF the energy of the universe is above 0, then the universe is eternal (thus the energy/matter never 'didn't exist)
IF the energy of the universe is 0, then time is emergent

I think the latter horn is most likely true, since the 0 energy universe model is so ridiculously elegant, and has enormous explanatory power of the flatness of the universe, dark energy, etc.

Okay, way over my head. I'm actually going to have to look all that up.

I am sorry, my bad.

Okay, let's take the statement:

"Energy/Matter cannot be created or destroyed"

Then we can do a syllogism:

1. Energy/Matter cannot be created or destroyed
2. Energy/matter in our universe exists
C. The energy/matter in our universe that exists was never created, and can never be destroyed

Thus, they are eternal assuming there is a net positive amount of energy/matter

However in relativity, there is such a thing as gravity wells etc, where the energy is negative. Thus the universe could have 0 overall energy. If that is the case, then energy/matter could be finite in the past.

Does this theory also say that a universe could "pop out of existence?" Or once it exists, it must remain?
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,127
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12/13/2014 10:34:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/12/2014 6:35:39 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 12/12/2014 6:32:16 PM, Kyle_the_Heretic wrote:
At 12/12/2014 6:12:37 PM, Envisage wrote:
According to the quantum eternity theorum.

IF the energy of the universe is above 0, then the universe is eternal (thus the energy/matter never 'didn't exist)
IF the energy of the universe is 0, then time is emergent

I think the latter horn is most likely true, since the 0 energy universe model is so ridiculously elegant, and has enormous explanatory power of the flatness of the universe, dark energy, etc.

Okay, way over my head. I'm actually going to have to look all that up.

I am sorry, my bad.

Okay, let's take the statement:

"Energy/Matter cannot be created or destroyed"

Then we can do a syllogism:

1. Energy/Matter cannot be created or destroyed
2. Energy/matter in our universe exists
C. The energy/matter in our universe that exists was never created, and can never be destroyed

Thus, they are eternal assuming there is a net positive amount of energy/matter

However in relativity, there is such a thing as gravity wells etc, where the energy is negative. Thus the universe could have 0 overall energy. If that is the case, then energy/matter could be finite in the past.

This is at the limits of my understanding, but didn't Hawkins come to a different conclusion for a zero net universe?
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