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Casimir Effect

tabularasa
Posts: 200
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12/18/2014 9:04:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Doesn't the Casimir Effect simply demonstrate:

1. That there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum, and
2. That the energy outside of the metal plates is simply greater than the energy between the plates? There is no such thing as negative energy, (outside energy)>(inside energy)?
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.
slo1
Posts: 4,332
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12/29/2014 9:57:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/18/2014 9:04:25 PM, tabularasa wrote:
Doesn't the Casimir Effect simply demonstrate:

1. That there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum, and
2. That the energy outside of the metal plates is simply greater than the energy between the plates? There is no such thing as negative energy, (outside energy)>(inside energy)?

I think "simply" is an understatement. It gave evidence that a vacuum on a quantum level has random particles/waves coming into existence and annihilating out of existence.

So, yes #1 if one is defining a vacuum as space time with nothing else in it then no such thing exists.

On #2 if you are looking at the energy density between the plates versus outside the plates that is true. When they say "negative" energy density they are calling a normal density of energy in a vacuum energy at zero energy. When you put the plates close together and restrict the ability of wider wave lengths to exist between the plates it is less energy density than if the plates were not there.

It is "negative" because it is less than the the arbitrary point at which they placed zero, which is at a point where energy exists. It is not negative to a zero point which would be defined as no energy.

Interestingly there have been experiments in the last couple years where an oscillating mirror (of sorts) that would could move back and forth a quarter the speed of light could "bump" into these virtual particles and transfer energy to become a real photon that would shoot out of the vacuum. We have proven the energy random energy fluctuation in a vacuum, but the casimir effect is amazing because it gave credence to the theory back in the 40's.

Lots of other cools stuff too. Since light has to travel through the frothiness of a vacuum it will be impeded by this random energy. If one could create the lower level energy state (negative energy) that means less things it can hit and it should travel faster.
tabularasa
Posts: 200
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12/29/2014 11:48:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 9:57:51 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 12/18/2014 9:04:25 PM, tabularasa wrote:
Doesn't the Casimir Effect simply demonstrate:

1. That there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum, and
2. That the energy outside of the metal plates is simply greater than the energy between the plates? There is no such thing as negative energy, (outside energy)>(inside energy)?

I think "simply" is an understatement. It gave evidence that a vacuum on a quantum level has random particles/waves coming into existence and annihilating out of existence.

So, yes #1 if one is defining a vacuum as space time with nothing else in it then no such thing exists.

On #2 if you are looking at the energy density between the plates versus outside the plates that is true. When they say "negative" energy density they are calling a normal density of energy in a vacuum energy at zero energy. When you put the plates close together and restrict the ability of wider wave lengths to exist between the plates it is less energy density than if the plates were not there.

It is "negative" because it is less than the the arbitrary point at which they placed zero, which is at a point where energy exists. It is not negative to a zero point which would be defined as no energy.

Interestingly there have been experiments in the last couple years where an oscillating mirror (of sorts) that would could move back and forth a quarter the speed of light could "bump" into these virtual particles and transfer energy to become a real photon that would shoot out of the vacuum. We have proven the energy random energy fluctuation in a vacuum, but the casimir effect is amazing because it gave credence to the theory back in the 40's.

Lots of other cools stuff too. Since light has to travel through the frothiness of a vacuum it will be impeded by this random energy. If one could create the lower level energy state (negative energy) that means less things it can hit and it should travel faster.

Yes. I believe this is what I have taken from the experiment. The Casimir Effect is very interesting to study. It is also very mysterious, but it is not nearly as mysterious as some would have us believe.
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.
slo1
Posts: 4,332
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12/29/2014 11:55:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 11:48:15 AM, tabularasa wrote:
At 12/29/2014 9:57:51 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 12/18/2014 9:04:25 PM, tabularasa wrote:
Doesn't the Casimir Effect simply demonstrate:

1. That there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum, and
2. That the energy outside of the metal plates is simply greater than the energy between the plates? There is no such thing as negative energy, (outside energy)>(inside energy)?

I think "simply" is an understatement. It gave evidence that a vacuum on a quantum level has random particles/waves coming into existence and annihilating out of existence.

So, yes #1 if one is defining a vacuum as space time with nothing else in it then no such thing exists.

On #2 if you are looking at the energy density between the plates versus outside the plates that is true. When they say "negative" energy density they are calling a normal density of energy in a vacuum energy at zero energy. When you put the plates close together and restrict the ability of wider wave lengths to exist between the plates it is less energy density than if the plates were not there.

It is "negative" because it is less than the the arbitrary point at which they placed zero, which is at a point where energy exists. It is not negative to a zero point which would be defined as no energy.

Interestingly there have been experiments in the last couple years where an oscillating mirror (of sorts) that would could move back and forth a quarter the speed of light could "bump" into these virtual particles and transfer energy to become a real photon that would shoot out of the vacuum. We have proven the energy random energy fluctuation in a vacuum, but the casimir effect is amazing because it gave credence to the theory back in the 40's.

Lots of other cools stuff too. Since light has to travel through the frothiness of a vacuum it will be impeded by this random energy. If one could create the lower level energy state (negative energy) that means less things it can hit and it should travel faster.

Yes. I believe this is what I have taken from the experiment. The Casimir Effect is very interesting to study. It is also very mysterious, but it is not nearly as mysterious as some would have us believe.

Maybe not in itself, but why energy/matter is randomly coming in and out of existence in a vacuum is still very much a mystery.
tabularasa
Posts: 200
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12/29/2014 1:20:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 11:55:54 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 12/29/2014 11:48:15 AM, tabularasa wrote:
At 12/29/2014 9:57:51 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 12/18/2014 9:04:25 PM, tabularasa wrote:
Doesn't the Casimir Effect simply demonstrate:

1. That there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum, and
2. That the energy outside of the metal plates is simply greater than the energy between the plates? There is no such thing as negative energy, (outside energy)>(inside energy)?

I think "simply" is an understatement. It gave evidence that a vacuum on a quantum level has random particles/waves coming into existence and annihilating out of existence.

So, yes #1 if one is defining a vacuum as space time with nothing else in it then no such thing exists.

On #2 if you are looking at the energy density between the plates versus outside the plates that is true. When they say "negative" energy density they are calling a normal density of energy in a vacuum energy at zero energy. When you put the plates close together and restrict the ability of wider wave lengths to exist between the plates it is less energy density than if the plates were not there.

It is "negative" because it is less than the the arbitrary point at which they placed zero, which is at a point where energy exists. It is not negative to a zero point which would be defined as no energy.

Interestingly there have been experiments in the last couple years where an oscillating mirror (of sorts) that would could move back and forth a quarter the speed of light could "bump" into these virtual particles and transfer energy to become a real photon that would shoot out of the vacuum. We have proven the energy random energy fluctuation in a vacuum, but the casimir effect is amazing because it gave credence to the theory back in the 40's.

Lots of other cools stuff too. Since light has to travel through the frothiness of a vacuum it will be impeded by this random energy. If one could create the lower level energy state (negative energy) that means less things it can hit and it should travel faster.

Yes. I believe this is what I have taken from the experiment. The Casimir Effect is very interesting to study. It is also very mysterious, but it is not nearly as mysterious as some would have us believe.

Maybe not in itself, but why energy/matter is randomly coming in and out of existence in a vacuum is still very much a mystery.

Yes it is. However, the presentation of the major experiments in quantum mechanics attempts to make QM seem more mysterious than it really is. The double slit experiment is a good example. Some people try to use this experiment as an argument for God. Google "quantum mechanics proof for god" and you will see what I mean. The experiment simply demonstrates that particles act as particles, and probably act as waves, too. No need to extrapolate too much from it. Sometimes, these experiments are misrepresented. Videos and articles present the Casimir experiment as taking place within a perfect vacuum and as proving that negative energy exists. It does not, of course, demonstrate either of these two things.
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.
slo1
Posts: 4,332
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12/29/2014 1:54:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 1:20:04 PM, tabularasa wrote:
At 12/29/2014 11:55:54 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 12/29/2014 11:48:15 AM, tabularasa wrote:
At 12/29/2014 9:57:51 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 12/18/2014 9:04:25 PM, tabularasa wrote:
Doesn't the Casimir Effect simply demonstrate:

1. That there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum, and
2. That the energy outside of the metal plates is simply greater than the energy between the plates? There is no such thing as negative energy, (outside energy)>(inside energy)?

I think "simply" is an understatement. It gave evidence that a vacuum on a quantum level has random particles/waves coming into existence and annihilating out of existence.

So, yes #1 if one is defining a vacuum as space time with nothing else in it then no such thing exists.

On #2 if you are looking at the energy density between the plates versus outside the plates that is true. When they say "negative" energy density they are calling a normal density of energy in a vacuum energy at zero energy. When you put the plates close together and restrict the ability of wider wave lengths to exist between the plates it is less energy density than if the plates were not there.

It is "negative" because it is less than the the arbitrary point at which they placed zero, which is at a point where energy exists. It is not negative to a zero point which would be defined as no energy.

Interestingly there have been experiments in the last couple years where an oscillating mirror (of sorts) that would could move back and forth a quarter the speed of light could "bump" into these virtual particles and transfer energy to become a real photon that would shoot out of the vacuum. We have proven the energy random energy fluctuation in a vacuum, but the casimir effect is amazing because it gave credence to the theory back in the 40's.

Lots of other cools stuff too. Since light has to travel through the frothiness of a vacuum it will be impeded by this random energy. If one could create the lower level energy state (negative energy) that means less things it can hit and it should travel faster.

Yes. I believe this is what I have taken from the experiment. The Casimir Effect is very interesting to study. It is also very mysterious, but it is not nearly as mysterious as some would have us believe.

Maybe not in itself, but why energy/matter is randomly coming in and out of existence in a vacuum is still very much a mystery.

Yes it is. However, the presentation of the major experiments in quantum mechanics attempts to make QM seem more mysterious than it really is. The double slit experiment is a good example. Some people try to use this experiment as an argument for God. Google "quantum mechanics proof for god" and you will see what I mean. The experiment simply demonstrates that particles act as particles, and probably act as waves, too. No need to extrapolate too much from it. Sometimes, these experiments are misrepresented. Videos and articles present the Casimir experiment as taking place within a perfect vacuum and as proving that negative energy exists. It does not, of course, demonstrate either of these two things.

I agree it is often misrepresented. I have heard more wacky stuff regarding the tie to consciousness rather than proof for God, but either way there is a lot of mystical bs out there pertaining to it.

With that said though, quantum physics somewhat created its own problem by refusing to look at a possible tie to consciousness, which allowed the wackos to run a muck with it.

It should have never been death to a career to say, "hummm, it is just very strange that with 100% accuracy when ever I choose to measure this thing it looks like a particle and when ever I don't it looks like a wave. Maybe something may be related here, we should investigate it."

Even if there isn't a relationship there the evidence of quantum effects as a possible driver of conscious thought is becoming a possibility with the discovery of microtubule vibrations in the brain.

It is still fringe science to this day as physic students are taught how to predict matter's behavior but not to question why it behaves such a way.
tabularasa
Posts: 200
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12/29/2014 2:14:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/29/2014 1:54:24 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 12/29/2014 1:20:04 PM, tabularasa wrote:
At 12/29/2014 11:55:54 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 12/29/2014 11:48:15 AM, tabularasa wrote:
At 12/29/2014 9:57:51 AM, slo1 wrote:
At 12/18/2014 9:04:25 PM, tabularasa wrote:
Doesn't the Casimir Effect simply demonstrate:

1. That there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum, and
2. That the energy outside of the metal plates is simply greater than the energy between the plates? There is no such thing as negative energy, (outside energy)>(inside energy)?

I think "simply" is an understatement. It gave evidence that a vacuum on a quantum level has random particles/waves coming into existence and annihilating out of existence.

So, yes #1 if one is defining a vacuum as space time with nothing else in it then no such thing exists.

On #2 if you are looking at the energy density between the plates versus outside the plates that is true. When they say "negative" energy density they are calling a normal density of energy in a vacuum energy at zero energy. When you put the plates close together and restrict the ability of wider wave lengths to exist between the plates it is less energy density than if the plates were not there.

It is "negative" because it is less than the the arbitrary point at which they placed zero, which is at a point where energy exists. It is not negative to a zero point which would be defined as no energy.

Interestingly there have been experiments in the last couple years where an oscillating mirror (of sorts) that would could move back and forth a quarter the speed of light could "bump" into these virtual particles and transfer energy to become a real photon that would shoot out of the vacuum. We have proven the energy random energy fluctuation in a vacuum, but the casimir effect is amazing because it gave credence to the theory back in the 40's.

Lots of other cools stuff too. Since light has to travel through the frothiness of a vacuum it will be impeded by this random energy. If one could create the lower level energy state (negative energy) that means less things it can hit and it should travel faster.

Yes. I believe this is what I have taken from the experiment. The Casimir Effect is very interesting to study. It is also very mysterious, but it is not nearly as mysterious as some would have us believe.

Maybe not in itself, but why energy/matter is randomly coming in and out of existence in a vacuum is still very much a mystery.

Yes it is. However, the presentation of the major experiments in quantum mechanics attempts to make QM seem more mysterious than it really is. The double slit experiment is a good example. Some people try to use this experiment as an argument for God. Google "quantum mechanics proof for god" and you will see what I mean. The experiment simply demonstrates that particles act as particles, and probably act as waves, too. No need to extrapolate too much from it. Sometimes, these experiments are misrepresented. Videos and articles present the Casimir experiment as taking place within a perfect vacuum and as proving that negative energy exists. It does not, of course, demonstrate either of these two things.

I agree it is often misrepresented. I have heard more wacky stuff regarding the tie to consciousness rather than proof for God, but either way there is a lot of mystical bs out there pertaining to it.

With that said though, quantum physics somewhat created its own problem by refusing to look at a possible tie to consciousness, which allowed the wackos to run a muck with it.

It should have never been death to a career to say, "hummm, it is just very strange that with 100% accuracy when ever I choose to measure this thing it looks like a particle and when ever I don't it looks like a wave. Maybe something may be related here, we should investigate it."

Even if there isn't a relationship there the evidence of quantum effects as a possible driver of conscious thought is becoming a possibility with the discovery of microtubule vibrations in the brain.

It is still fringe science to this day as physic students are taught how to predict matter's behavior but not to question why it behaves such a way.

Funny you should mention the consciousness extrapolation. I was very frustrated with this when I first saw it. There is no doubt in my mind that consciousness is a function of quantum reactions...however, there is no basis in observation to confirm. Until we discover the mechanism, we will not know how consciousness arises. I guarantee you this: there is a mechanism for the human conscious.
1. I already googled it.

2. Give me an argument. Spell it out. "You're wrong," is not an argument.