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Survival of the fittest

Andrew27
Posts: 155
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6/14/2010 8:50:18 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Evolution is based on survival of the fittest, the strongest live to pass on genes. So what is the evolutionary case for IVF or keeping people alive to pass on genes when normally they would die out? Also what are the future consequences for our species?
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/14/2010 8:53:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 8:50:18 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
Evolution is based on survival of the fittest, the strongest live to pass on genes.
So what is the evolutionary case for IVF....

The Theory of Evolution does not prescribe actions.

It has nothing to do with what one should do.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Andrew27
Posts: 155
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6/14/2010 8:55:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I understand that, we have stepped out of evolution, but all life came about because of evolution so what are the consequences of no longer being a part of it?
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/14/2010 9:03:04 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 8:55:06 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
I understand that, we have stepped out of evolution, but all life came about because of evolution so what are the consequences of no longer being a part of it?

still a part...

evolution doesn't drive towards making things more "fit" (phys.. or mentally)

It's simply the process of change of organisms.

Humans are still bound to change a bit in our physical makeup.

I'd say prolly to eventually grow weaker and dumber
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
belle
Posts: 4,113
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6/14/2010 9:15:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 8:55:06 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
I understand that, we have stepped out of evolution, but all life came about because of evolution so what are the consequences of no longer being a part of it?

we are still a part of it. just so happens the "environment" now includes fertility doctors. lol.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/14/2010 9:21:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 9:16:36 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
ok so it's no longer natural selection then but human selection? i would certainly agree with weaker and dumber

human selection IS natural selection :P
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/14/2010 9:21:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 9:21:00 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 6/14/2010 9:16:36 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
ok so it's no longer natural selection then but human selection? i would certainly agree with weaker and dumber

human selection IS natural selection :P

lol 8)
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/14/2010 9:23:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 9:21:00 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
At 6/14/2010 9:16:36 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
ok so it's no longer natural selection then but human selection? i would certainly agree with weaker and dumber

human selection IS natural selection :P

plus...

If we did presume to choose how our species would change... those choices (which are themselves natural) will prolly also have unintended (natural) consequences.

and... our lifestlye generally will (naturally) dictate changes.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Andrew27
Posts: 155
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6/14/2010 9:36:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Hang on thats not how if works thats selectietic modification not evolution. thats like sayng that all the different breeds of dogs are natural of that cats that glow in the dark are natural there not here man made. Hence difference between natural things such as fabrics, food, environment, and man made ones, that like saying that a city is a natural environment
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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6/14/2010 9:42:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 9:36:55 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
Hang on thats not how if works thats selectietic modification not evolution. thats like sayng that all the different breeds of dogs are natural of that cats that glow in the dark are natural there not here man made. Hence difference between natural things such as fabrics, food, environment, and man made ones, that like saying that a city is a natural environment

ok.... sure.

perhaps calling our choices natural is equivocating a bit. (EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE DICTATED BY OUR NATURES)

BUT either way.... there will be unintended natural consequences of those choices.

And, unless social darwinists become powerful, the UNINTENDED consequences will likely be much more important in dictating how we change than intended ones.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
belle
Posts: 4,113
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6/14/2010 9:43:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 9:36:55 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
Hang on thats not how if works thats selectietic modification not evolution. thats like sayng that all the different breeds of dogs are natural of that cats that glow in the dark are natural there not here man made. Hence difference between natural things such as fabrics, food, environment, and man made ones, that like saying that a city is a natural environment

a beaver's damn you would consider natural, no? a human being is a product of nature... our culture is a product of us... why is it not also natural? just because its complicated?
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Andrew27
Posts: 155
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6/14/2010 9:46:30 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think we should be very careful when making changes on a genetic level. Evolutionary changes happen very gradually over a long time. Making sudden big changes could create alsorts of problems.
feverish
Posts: 2,716
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6/14/2010 9:57:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 9:43:32 AM, belle wrote:

a beaver's damn you would consider natural, no?

I'd find it pretty unnatural if a beaver said "damn" lol. Building dams is a little more normal however :)
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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6/17/2010 6:48:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 8:50:18 AM, Andrew27 wrote:
Evolution is based on survival of the fittest, the strongest live to pass on genes.

Fittest, not strongest. Really it should just be entitled survival of the fit.

So what is the evolutionary case for IVF or keeping people alive to pass on genes when normally they would die out? Also what are the future consequences for our species?

It is not neccesarily the case that people unable to conceive naturally are not in the wider sense, unfit. Some uses of IVF are selective so function as an evolutionary pressure. If the resulting child is unable to survive it won't.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Yvette
Posts: 859
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6/17/2010 7:21:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Andrew, the mechanisms of evolution don't care whether we perceive them as natural or unnatural. Whatever reproduces the most will be best able to pass on it's genes. Here are some other "unnatural" methods of evolution:

- Assortative mating, wherein individuals seek out specific mates who either have a very similar or a very different phenotype.
- Population bottleneck, when most of a population is killed off and only the remaining genes get passed on, reducing diversity. This is thought to have happened to humans 200,000 years ago because we all are descended from a woman about that time.
- Mutation, you can thank it for your lactose tolerance.

Etc, etc.

And evolution does not stop. Evolution is occurring whenever gene frequencies in a population are changing, and for that to not happen is damn near impossible. Nor does it "go backwards", there is no goal in evolution. Natural selection can help a population adapt, but there is no "better" objectively. Whatever survives and reproduces simply does.
In the middle of moving to Washington. 8D

"If God does not exist, then chocolate causing cancer is only true for the society that has evidence for that." --GodSands
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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6/21/2010 9:03:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/17/2010 6:48:35 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Fittest, not strongest. Really it should just be entitled survival of the fit.

Exactly. Evolution doesn't say that the strongest survive, but that those most adaptable to change survive. Hence belle's example about today's environment involving fertility doctors. In fact, not to go too off topic but this is why the argument that homosexuality is immoral because it doesn't allow for procreation becomes falsified. Whether or not gays can have a baby naturally is irrelevant in today's environment. Anyway...

So what is the evolutionary case for IVF or keeping people alive to pass on genes when normally they would die out? Also what are the future consequences for our species?

We're still evolving. And we couldn't have evolved any other way due to determinism and the laws of physics/ big bang/ universe... lmao this is what happens when you smoke a bowl before coming on DDO... Anyway what was I saying? Oh yeah - basically I think "consequences" is a bit of a strong word. I'd say "results" and I'd say that evolution will just keep doing what it's doing now: the fittest survive. It seems to be working out for humanity I guess though I think people have gotten more unfit ;)
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belle
Posts: 4,113
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6/21/2010 12:27:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 6/14/2010 9:57:36 AM, feverish wrote:
At 6/14/2010 9:43:32 AM, belle wrote:

a beaver's damn you would consider natural, no?

I'd find it pretty unnatural if a beaver said "damn" lol. Building dams is a little more normal however :)

lol. oops!

but hey, since we're products of nature and we genetically altered the beaver to swear.... yeah....
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...