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How can you tell?

Mhykiel
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2/15/2015 12:52:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If I played a sound to a bunch of scientist and said it was a word spoken by an alien creature how might this be determined true or false?

If it is impossible to determine that an intelligence made the sound then would it be rational to assume false knowing a value of "true" is impossible to determine?

Scientist could examine the sound and for good surety say it was a vibration of molecules at such a ranges of sound. But could they tell it was the utterance of a language?
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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2/15/2015 1:22:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 12:52:36 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I played a sound to a bunch of scientist and said it was a word spoken by an alien creature how might this be determined true or false?

Mhykiel, information can be transmitted through the modulation of energy (sound, light, and so on.) We can check for patterns in the modulation of energy and determine how much information it could carry. Some sounds are either so homogeneous or so messy that they can't carry much information at all (unless the information is hidden by context.)

But working out a language needs more than a one word sample. We know that people can learn languages because we learn informally from one another by example all the time. But learning informally needs many examples in the context of utterance. So you'd need more samples for this to be testable -- but testable it is.

Hope that helps. :)
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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2/15/2015 10:47:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 12:52:36 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I played a sound to a bunch of scientist and said it was a word spoken by an alien creature how might this be determined true or false?

If it is impossible to determine that an intelligence made the sound then would it be rational to assume false knowing a value of "true" is impossible to determine?

Scientist could examine the sound and for good surety say it was a vibration of molecules at such a ranges of sound. But could they tell it was the utterance of a language?

Are you receiving communications from aliens again Mhykiel ?

I use to have that problem too, tin foil hat is the way to go bro.
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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2/16/2015 10:28:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 10:47:35 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/15/2015 12:52:36 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I played a sound to a bunch of scientist and said it was a word spoken by an alien creature how might this be determined true or false?

If it is impossible to determine that an intelligence made the sound then would it be rational to assume false knowing a value of "true" is impossible to determine?

Scientist could examine the sound and for good surety say it was a vibration of molecules at such a ranges of sound. But could they tell it was the utterance of a language?

Are you receiving communications from aliens again Mhykiel ?

I use to have that problem too, tin foil hat is the way to go bro.

So vibrations of sound from natural cuases are indistinguishable from intelligent agent cuases except in the case where we are familiar with the agent themselves? I thought so
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
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2/16/2015 12:45:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 12:52:36 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I played a sound to a bunch of scientist and said it was a word spoken by an alien creature how might this be determined true or false?

If it is impossible to determine that an intelligence made the sound then would it be rational to assume false knowing a value of "true" is impossible to determine?

Scientist could examine the sound and for good surety say it was a vibration of molecules at such a ranges of sound. But could they tell it was the utterance of a language?

I'm curious where you're going with this?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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2/16/2015 3:58:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 12:45:58 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/15/2015 12:52:36 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I played a sound to a bunch of scientist and said it was a word spoken by an alien creature how might this be determined true or false?

If it is impossible to determine that an intelligence made the sound then would it be rational to assume false knowing a value of "true" is impossible to determine?

Scientist could examine the sound and for good surety say it was a vibration of molecules at such a ranges of sound. But could they tell it was the utterance of a language?

I'm curious where you're going with this?

Read above bud
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
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2/16/2015 4:01:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 3:58:55 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 12:45:58 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/15/2015 12:52:36 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I played a sound to a bunch of scientist and said it was a word spoken by an alien creature how might this be determined true or false?

If it is impossible to determine that an intelligence made the sound then would it be rational to assume false knowing a value of "true" is impossible to determine?

Scientist could examine the sound and for good surety say it was a vibration of molecules at such a ranges of sound. But could they tell it was the utterance of a language?

I'm curious where you're going with this?

Read above bud

Yea, I read all of that. I would guess you're not actually interested in determining if a sound came from an alien creature. That leads us back to my question.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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2/16/2015 4:04:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 4:01:32 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/16/2015 3:58:55 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 12:45:58 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/15/2015 12:52:36 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I played a sound to a bunch of scientist and said it was a word spoken by an alien creature how might this be determined true or false?

If it is impossible to determine that an intelligence made the sound then would it be rational to assume false knowing a value of "true" is impossible to determine?

Scientist could examine the sound and for good surety say it was a vibration of molecules at such a ranges of sound. But could they tell it was the utterance of a language?

I'm curious where you're going with this?

Read above bud

Yea, I read all of that. I would guess you're not actually interested in determining if a sound came from an alien creature. That leads us back to my question.

I am do you have any theories
Illegalcombatant
Posts: 4,008
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2/16/2015 4:10:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 10:28:33 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 2/15/2015 10:47:35 PM, Illegalcombatant wrote:
At 2/15/2015 12:52:36 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I played a sound to a bunch of scientist and said it was a word spoken by an alien creature how might this be determined true or false?

If it is impossible to determine that an intelligence made the sound then would it be rational to assume false knowing a value of "true" is impossible to determine?

Scientist could examine the sound and for good surety say it was a vibration of molecules at such a ranges of sound. But could they tell it was the utterance of a language?

Are you receiving communications from aliens again Mhykiel ?

I use to have that problem too, tin foil hat is the way to go bro.

So vibrations of sound from natural cuases are indistinguishable from intelligent agent cuases except in the case where we are familiar with the agent themselves? I thought so

Since your talking about aliens those aliens would be natural too, but I take it your question more precisely is how do we tell the difference if X (eg vibrations of sound) are the product of intent or absent intent.

The more general answer from what I hear is "background theory". We have a ton of background theory when it comes to human intentionality for obvious reasons. Aliens ? Gods ? the flying spaghtetti monster ? not so much.

So why such the concern about how one detects alien communication if I may ask ?
"Seems like another attempt to insert God into areas our knowledge has yet to penetrate. You figure God would be bigger than the gaps of our ignorance." Drafterman 19/5/12
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
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2/16/2015 4:22:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 4:04:26 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 4:01:32 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/16/2015 3:58:55 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 12:45:58 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/15/2015 12:52:36 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I played a sound to a bunch of scientist and said it was a word spoken by an alien creature how might this be determined true or false?

If it is impossible to determine that an intelligence made the sound then would it be rational to assume false knowing a value of "true" is impossible to determine?

Scientist could examine the sound and for good surety say it was a vibration of molecules at such a ranges of sound. But could they tell it was the utterance of a language?

I'm curious where you're going with this?

Read above bud

Yea, I read all of that. I would guess you're not actually interested in determining if a sound came from an alien creature. That leads us back to my question.

I am do you have any theories

First off, I'm not an expert, but I would imagine having a single sample would make it difficult to determine if it was language and even more difficult to determine meaning. Also, I believe the claim would need to be investigated before the sample could be taken seriously. How would you have come by such a noise, and how do you know it is alien language?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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2/16/2015 4:32:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 4:22:22 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/16/2015 4:04:26 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 4:01:32 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/16/2015 3:58:55 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 12:45:58 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/15/2015 12:52:36 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I played a sound to a bunch of scientist and said it was a word spoken by an alien creature how might this be determined true or false?

If it is impossible to determine that an intelligence made the sound then would it be rational to assume false knowing a value of "true" is impossible to determine?

Scientist could examine the sound and for good surety say it was a vibration of molecules at such a ranges of sound. But could they tell it was the utterance of a language?

I'm curious where you're going with this?

Read above bud

Yea, I read all of that. I would guess you're not actually interested in determining if a sound came from an alien creature. That leads us back to my question.

I am do you have any theories

First off, I'm not an expert, but I would imagine having a single sample would make it difficult to determine if it was language and even more difficult to determine meaning. Also, I believe the claim would need to be investigated before the sample could be taken seriously. How would you have come by such a noise, and how do you know it is alien language?

As a vastly distant planet was spining around a distant sun and along its rotation is was by happen-chance that the last minute of an alien 'i love lucy' show strifed earth and was picked up by scientist.

Not knowing the backstory would scientist come up with the correct answer
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,093
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2/16/2015 5:09:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 4:32:43 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 4:22:22 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/16/2015 4:04:26 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 4:01:32 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/16/2015 3:58:55 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 12:45:58 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 2/15/2015 12:52:36 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I played a sound to a bunch of scientist and said it was a word spoken by an alien creature how might this be determined true or false?

If it is impossible to determine that an intelligence made the sound then would it be rational to assume false knowing a value of "true" is impossible to determine?

Scientist could examine the sound and for good surety say it was a vibration of molecules at such a ranges of sound. But could they tell it was the utterance of a language?

I'm curious where you're going with this?

Read above bud

Yea, I read all of that. I would guess you're not actually interested in determining if a sound came from an alien creature. That leads us back to my question.

I am do you have any theories

First off, I'm not an expert, but I would imagine having a single sample would make it difficult to determine if it was language and even more difficult to determine meaning. Also, I believe the claim would need to be investigated before the sample could be taken seriously. How would you have come by such a noise, and how do you know it is alien language?

As a vastly distant planet was spining around a distant sun and along its rotation is was by happen-chance that the last minute of an alien 'i love lucy' show strifed earth and was picked up by scientist.

Not knowing the backstory would scientist come up with the correct answer

Again, I'm not an expert, but if we are able to receive a broadcast signal from a distant world that would lead me to a few possibilities:
1. The strength and length of the signal can help us distinguish it from known natural sources.
2. As soon as we hear, "Lucy, you got some 'splaining to do!", it will be obvious it is not natural.
3. If there is musical accompaniment it will be obvious it is not natural.

Lol, as I said, I'm not an expert, but I would imagine SETI has this figured out much more thoroughly than me. Is that the focus of your question?
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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2/16/2015 7:21:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 12:52:36 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I played a sound to a bunch of scientist and said it was a word spoken by an alien creature how might this be determined true or false?

If it is impossible to determine that an intelligence made the sound then would it be rational to assume false knowing a value of "true" is impossible to determine?

Scientist could examine the sound and for good surety say it was a vibration of molecules at such a ranges of sound. But could they tell it was the utterance of a language?

Well, if the sound is precisely indistinguishable from a natural sound (eg it is the sound of a stone falling into the water), then obviously they will not be able to distinguish it, scientists are not soothsayers. By the lex parsimoniae principle, that sound is natural until the contrary is proven.

However, if the sound is odd enough in the sense that it isn't similar to anything we can find in nature, and shows an intelligent pattern, for example ordered repetition and other characteristics, the probability can go up in favor of the hypothesis of "intelligent signal". Such premises are also used for example to determine that the song of a whale is actually "a song" and not a set of nonsense screaming.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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2/16/2015 10:02:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 7:21:21 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 2/15/2015 12:52:36 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I played a sound to a bunch of scientist and said it was a word spoken by an alien creature how might this be determined true or false?

If it is impossible to determine that an intelligence made the sound then would it be rational to assume false knowing a value of "true" is impossible to determine?

Scientist could examine the sound and for good surety say it was a vibration of molecules at such a ranges of sound. But could they tell it was the utterance of a language?

Well, if the sound is precisely indistinguishable from a natural sound (eg it is the sound of a stone falling into the water), then obviously they will not be able to distinguish it, scientists are not soothsayers. By the lex parsimoniae principle, that sound is natural until the contrary is proven.

However, if the sound is odd enough in the sense that it isn't similar to anything we can find in nature, and shows an intelligent pattern, for example ordered repetition and other characteristics, the probability can go up in favor of the hypothesis of "intelligent signal". Such premises are also used for example to determine that the song of a whale is actually "a song" and not a set of nonsense screaming.

You think ordered repetition is an attribute of an intelligent pattern? I wouldn't think so. Like a snowflake is ordered repitition.
Chuz-Life
Posts: 1,788
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2/17/2015 12:50:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/15/2015 12:52:36 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I played a sound to a bunch of scientist and said it was a word spoken by an alien creature how might this be determined true or false?

The scientists would launch a inquiry, gather as much data as possible (ask you how you got the recording, verify your claims and techniques, try to replicate it, etc.) Hopefully, if you recorded the sound in person, hopefully you took a selfie too. :)

If it is impossible to determine that an intelligence made the sound then would it be rational to assume false knowing a value of "true" is impossible to determine?

Or, plausible.

Scientist could examine the sound and for good surety say it was a vibration of molecules at such a ranges of sound. But could they tell it was the utterance of a language?

In some cases, yes and in other cases, no. It would depend upon the sample and whether or not the sound was encrypted or not. For example, digital encryption sounds like squelch noise on most scanners and it useless and unintelligible. Some test equipment can "see" the signal tell that it has been digitized (so far as we know digital signals are not found in nature). . .
"Sooner or later, the Supreme Court of the Unites States is going to have explain how a 'child in the womb' is a person enough to be recognized as a MURDER victim under our fetal homicide laws but how they are not persons enough to qualify for any other Constitutional protections" ~ Chuz Life

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Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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2/17/2015 8:17:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 2/16/2015 10:02:37 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 2/16/2015 7:21:21 PM, Otokage wrote:
At 2/15/2015 12:52:36 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
If I played a sound to a bunch of scientist and said it was a word spoken by an alien creature how might this be determined true or false?

If it is impossible to determine that an intelligence made the sound then would it be rational to assume false knowing a value of "true" is impossible to determine?

Scientist could examine the sound and for good surety say it was a vibration of molecules at such a ranges of sound. But could they tell it was the utterance of a language?

Well, if the sound is precisely indistinguishable from a natural sound (eg it is the sound of a stone falling into the water), then obviously they will not be able to distinguish it, scientists are not soothsayers. By the lex parsimoniae principle, that sound is natural until the contrary is proven.

However, if the sound is odd enough in the sense that it isn't similar to anything we can find in nature, and shows an intelligent pattern, for example ordered repetition and other characteristics, the probability can go up in favor of the hypothesis of "intelligent signal". Such premises are also used for example to determine that the song of a whale is actually "a song" and not a set of nonsense screaming.

You think ordered repetition is an attribute of an intelligent pattern? I wouldn't think so. Like a snowflake is ordered repitition.

I think that, as a general rule, ordered repetition is a sign of intelligent pattern, but not enough to conclude something has been produced by an intelligence. As for the snowflake, I don't consider that to be ordered repition, it would be a repetition if snowflakes were clones of each other, but correct me if I'm wrong, they are no two identical snowflakes.

If a sound has an ordered structure, and is repeated once, again, again and again, and has other caracteristics too (like emission in a very narrow frequency), then I would seriously suggest intelligence is involved.
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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2/17/2015 9:15:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
You are all being rather vague. No one has precisely defined what is 'ordered repetition' and how it can be used to discriminate between 'natural sounds' (whatever it is you mean by that) and sounds produced by an intelligence. In terms of scientific methodology, testing the hypothesis given a sound sample would come down to some sort of statistical or machine classification. In order to actually do that, we need precisely defined hypotheses, and an operationalized definition of 'ordered repetition' that can be objectively measured and justifiably used to make a distinction. So far, since we seem to have none of these, this is a moot discussion from a scientific point of view.

I doubt that ordered repetition, however you define it, would be useful in this context. Many natural sounds have ordered repetition. It's just a common acoustic property, so it wouldn't be very useful here. If we're talking about ordered repetition in a more linguistic sense, you'd have a hard time distinguishing it from a bird call or some animal vocalization. Even if you could show that this particular sound isn't matched by any sound produced by a known animal, you cannot rule out the possibility of an undiscovered animal.