Total Posts:48|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Infinite Universe?

Mr_Jack_Nixon
Posts: 53
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/29/2010 3:07:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Alright, this will sound kind of crazy, but bear with me.

I often find myself debating with Christians and often find that they bring up the Cosmological Argument, or, the origin of the universe argument.

If my understanding is right, they say that there has to be an uncaused cause, else everything would simply be caused by something before, and that caused by something before, and back and back. The reasoning that you can't fill up the infinite expanse of time with finite events makes sense to me, and also the reasoning that there had to be an uncaused cause makes sense.

Christians say that's God, but I don't believe that for a second. We have reason to believe that it is the universe that had no beginning, and is the uncaused cause. Is this a reasonable assumption.

Also, does our universe consist of a finite amount of space or an infinite amount of space? I have thought about this, and have concluded (with the following reasoning) that the universe is infinitely big with an infinite amount of matter.

All matter, no matter how far apart, is attracted to other matter. We call the phenomenon gravity. Imagine a finite universe that has only two beads in it. The beads are 43 light years across. Eventually, the two beads will be next to each other. If our universe was finite, it would be very much the same way. All matter would attract each other and, eventually, all matter would be concentrated into a black hole. The universe, being an uncaused cause, has existed forever, which would have allowed time for the matter to collapse into the black hole. We aren't in a black hole right now, therefore, the universe couldn't have a finite amount of matter.

The only other alternative is an infinite amount of matter, which could only exist in an infinite universe.

I have told others this theory of mine before, and they all have told me the Big Bang disproves this, but they fail to tell me how.

Anyone with any thoughts/explanations please post. :D
Puck
Posts: 6,457
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/29/2010 6:21:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/29/2010 3:07:11 PM, Mr_Jack_Nixon wrote:
The universe, being an uncaused cause, has existed forever, which would have allowed time for the matter to collapse into the black hole. We aren't in a black hole right now, therefore, the universe couldn't have a finite amount of matter.

Inflation sort of deals with it. Space is expanding exponentially - with a flat universe it will continue to do so and you won't have the "big crunch" which is what the 'all matter collapses' was called.
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/29/2010 8:47:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The universe has an ending therefore it can't be infinite and eternal
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
Mr_Jack_Nixon
Posts: 53
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/29/2010 11:14:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/29/2010 6:21:55 PM, Puck wrote:
At 7/29/2010 3:07:11 PM, Mr_Jack_Nixon wrote:
The universe, being an uncaused cause, has existed forever, which would have allowed time for the matter to collapse into the black hole. We aren't in a black hole right now, therefore, the universe couldn't have a finite amount of matter.

Inflation sort of deals with it. Space is expanding exponentially - with a flat universe it will continue to do so and you won't have the "big crunch" which is what the 'all matter collapses' was called.

You would still have the problem, as the finite amount of matter would fold in on it self, as the expansion won't actually pull the matter away.
Mr_Jack_Nixon
Posts: 53
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/29/2010 11:14:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/29/2010 8:47:50 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
The universe has an ending therefore it can't be infinite and eternal

Why is it you say there is an ending?
Puck
Posts: 6,457
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/29/2010 11:21:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/29/2010 11:14:27 PM, Mr_Jack_Nixon wrote:
At 7/29/2010 6:21:55 PM, Puck wrote:
At 7/29/2010 3:07:11 PM, Mr_Jack_Nixon wrote:
The universe, being an uncaused cause, has existed forever, which would have allowed time for the matter to collapse into the black hole. We aren't in a black hole right now, therefore, the universe couldn't have a finite amount of matter.

Inflation sort of deals with it. Space is expanding exponentially - with a flat universe it will continue to do so and you won't have the "big crunch" which is what the 'all matter collapses' was called.

You would still have the problem, as the finite amount of matter would fold in on it self, as the expansion won't actually pull the matter away.

Nope. Inflation > pull of gravity. And it won't fold back on a flat universe.
Mr_Jack_Nixon
Posts: 53
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/29/2010 11:26:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/29/2010 11:21:19 PM, Puck wrote:
At 7/29/2010 11:14:27 PM, Mr_Jack_Nixon wrote:
At 7/29/2010 6:21:55 PM, Puck wrote:
At 7/29/2010 3:07:11 PM, Mr_Jack_Nixon wrote:
The universe, being an uncaused cause, has existed forever, which would have allowed time for the matter to collapse into the black hole. We aren't in a black hole right now, therefore, the universe couldn't have a finite amount of matter.

Inflation sort of deals with it. Space is expanding exponentially - with a flat universe it will continue to do so and you won't have the "big crunch" which is what the 'all matter collapses' was called.

You would still have the problem, as the finite amount of matter would fold in on it self, as the expansion won't actually pull the matter away.

Nope. Inflation > pull of gravity. And it won't fold back on a flat universe.

Maybe I'm just not understanding (likely), but it seems you're saying that the inflation actually causes a physical pull on the matter. If it's not actually matter that's inflating, just empty void, then there would be no force pulling matter toward the outside of the universe.

What reason do you have to believe it's finite, rather than infinite. I guess what I'm asking is do you have any sort of argument showing that the whole infinity theory is false, or unlikely?
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/29/2010 11:33:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Measurements show tat the universe is not only expanding, but expanding at an accelerating rate. Current theory is that the expansion creates new vacuum, and the vacuum has so-called "vacuum energy." The energy exerts a gravitational pll that is accelerating the universe outward. If the theory is true, then galazies will get further and further apart as the universe ages.

If everything requires a cause, then God requires a cause. If God is an excepting that does not require a cause, then the universe may also be an exception that doesn't require a cause. Going directly to the universe as the exception is simpler.

The premise that everything requires a cause is unproved. There appears to be many things described by modern physics that are inherently random. "Inherently random" means the world wouldn't work if they were not random.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/29/2010 11:36:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/29/2010 11:26:57 PM, Mr_Jack_Nixon wrote:
At 7/29/2010 11:21:19 PM, Puck wrote:
At 7/29/2010 11:14:27 PM, Mr_Jack_Nixon wrote:
At 7/29/2010 6:21:55 PM, Puck wrote:
At 7/29/2010 3:07:11 PM, Mr_Jack_Nixon wrote:
The universe, being an uncaused cause, has existed forever, which would have allowed time for the matter to collapse into the black hole. We aren't in a black hole right now, therefore, the universe couldn't have a finite amount of matter.

Inflation sort of deals with it. Space is expanding exponentially - with a flat universe it will continue to do so and you won't have the "big crunch" which is what the 'all matter collapses' was called.

You would still have the problem, as the finite amount of matter would fold in on it self, as the expansion won't actually pull the matter away.

Nope. Inflation > pull of gravity. And it won't fold back on a flat universe.

Maybe I'm just not understanding (likely), but it seems you're saying that the inflation actually causes a physical pull on the matter. If it's not actually matter that's inflating, just empty void, then there would be no force pulling matter toward the outside of the universe.

Inflation is the expansion of space. Matter exists within that space. Space expands, matter shifts along with it. It's not like the old pull the tablecloth trick. :P

What reason do you have to believe it's finite, rather than infinite. I guess what I'm asking is do you have any sort of argument showing that the whole infinity theory is false, or unlikely?

Mass or space? Since it has expanded from a point of a specific time, space itself is not unlimited, we can also get accurate calculations of the total mass of the observable universe and derive a zero energy universe from that.

http://en.wikipedia.org...
Mr_Jack_Nixon
Posts: 53
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/29/2010 11:36:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/29/2010 11:33:08 PM, RoyLatham wrote:

If everything requires a cause, then God requires a cause. If God is an excepting that does not require a cause, then the universe may also be an exception that doesn't require a cause. Going directly to the universe as the exception is simpler.


Occam's Razor :) And I'll watch it , Puck. Roy - What is postulated to have happened before the expansion? How did it get in that state, if it is uncaused?
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/29/2010 11:38:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/29/2010 8:47:50 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
The universe has an ending therefore it can't be infinite and eternal

Not according to current scientiific consensus.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Puck
Posts: 6,457
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/29/2010 11:40:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/29/2010 11:36:32 PM, Mr_Jack_Nixon wrote:
What is postulated to have happened before the expansion? How did it get in that state, if it is uncaused?

It's guesswork whatever any postulation will be. Most likely will remain that way for a long time. :P
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/29/2010 11:48:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Ok, hold on. What do you guys mean by "universe"?

Are you referring to our Hubblesphere (observable universe), or the entire Universe?

The Hubblesphere is finite. The Universe is infinite.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/29/2010 11:50:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/29/2010 11:48:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Ok, hold on. What do you guys mean by "universe"?

Are you referring to our Hubblesphere (observable universe), or the entire Universe?

The Hubblesphere is finite. The Universe is infinite.

The former we can ascertain, the latter is speculation.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
belle
Posts: 4,113
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2010 4:41:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/29/2010 11:14:27 PM, Mr_Jack_Nixon wrote:
At 7/29/2010 6:21:55 PM, Puck wrote:
At 7/29/2010 3:07:11 PM, Mr_Jack_Nixon wrote:
The universe, being an uncaused cause, has existed forever, which would have allowed time for the matter to collapse into the black hole. We aren't in a black hole right now, therefore, the universe couldn't have a finite amount of matter.

Inflation sort of deals with it. Space is expanding exponentially - with a flat universe it will continue to do so and you won't have the "big crunch" which is what the 'all matter collapses' was called.

You would still have the problem, as the finite amount of matter would fold in on it self, as the expansion won't actually pull the matter away.

the strength of gravity falls of with the square of the distance between any two objects. so if space is expanding, that means things are getting further apart and the gravity between them is getting weaker- rather quickly. so the amount of force pulling them together gets weaker as time goes on. given our current rate of expansion, the amount of matter does not appear to be sufficient to cause the universe to fold back on itself. not even close.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2010 8:32:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/29/2010 11:36:32 PM, Mr_Jack_Nixon wrote:
At 7/29/2010 11:33:08 PM, RoyLatham wrote:

>What is postulated to have happened before the expansion? How did it get in that state, if it is uncaused?

The theory is that the universe was expanding from the time of the Big Bang. However, the matter in the universe was held together by the gravitational attraction of the ordinary matter, so it expanded slowly -- at a constant rate-- for about five billion years. As the universe expanded, new vacuum was being created and eventually the vacuum energy created was so large as to make the matter expand at an accelerating rate.

Little of this conforms to common sense, especially the bit about newly created vacuum having inherent energy in it. Vacuum energy permeates the entire universe. For the math, it is like a constant of integration. The implications of there being vacuum energy having gravitational pull seems to be born out by observation, so that's why it's in the theory.

As to what happened before the Big Bang, to my knowledge that remains an unsettled question. One possibility is that things were going on in dimensions other than the three physical dimensions and time.

Since so much defies intuition, there seems to be no choice other than to trust the math. None of it rules out an an ultimate God who performs all the magic, but that is one more layer of complexity that seems to me unnecessary.
RoyLatham
Posts: 4,488
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2010 8:41:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/29/2010 11:48:32 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
Ok, hold on. What do you guys mean by "universe"?

Are you referring to our Hubblesphere (observable universe), or the entire Universe?

The Hubblesphere is finite. The Universe is infinite.

No, it is not certain that the universe is infinite. The only basis for asserting that it is infinite is that it cannot be imagined to be otherwise. However, the math seems to only work with a finite universe. What is outside the finite universe? Since it can never be reached by any means the question is meaningless. It is possible, seemingly likely, that the universe includes other dimensions. Perhaps some of those are infinite.
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2010 8:46:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/29/2010 11:38:58 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/29/2010 8:47:50 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
The universe has an ending therefore it can't be infinite and eternal

Not according to current scientiific consensus.

Then what happens when entropy reaches 100%
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2010 10:01:03 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/30/2010 8:46:36 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 7/29/2010 11:38:58 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/29/2010 8:47:50 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
The universe has an ending therefore it can't be infinite and eternal

Not according to current scientiific consensus.

Then what happens when entropy reaches 100%

Not a lot.
The current consensus is for heat death, that the universe will run itself down.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2010 10:02:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/30/2010 10:01:03 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/30/2010 8:46:36 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 7/29/2010 11:38:58 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/29/2010 8:47:50 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
The universe has an ending therefore it can't be infinite and eternal

Not according to current scientiific consensus.

Then what happens when entropy reaches 100%

Not a lot.
The current consensus is for heat death, that the universe will run itself down.

Which means?
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2010 10:04:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/30/2010 10:02:12 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 7/30/2010 10:01:03 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/30/2010 8:46:36 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 7/29/2010 11:38:58 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/29/2010 8:47:50 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
The universe has an ending therefore it can't be infinite and eternal

Not according to current scientiific consensus.

Then what happens when entropy reaches 100%

Not a lot.
The current consensus is for heat death, that the universe will run itself down.

Which means?

The stars run down, all energy is even distributed over an incredibly vast and cold universe. All life dies out.

The contrary less supported theory is big crunch, in which the universe snaps back for a second big bang.

Obviously the first theory is kinda depressing.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2010 10:06:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/30/2010 10:04:55 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/30/2010 10:02:12 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 7/30/2010 10:01:03 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/30/2010 8:46:36 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 7/29/2010 11:38:58 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/29/2010 8:47:50 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
The universe has an ending therefore it can't be infinite and eternal

Not according to current scientiific consensus.

Then what happens when entropy reaches 100%

Not a lot.
The current consensus is for heat death, that the universe will run itself down.

Which means?

The stars run down, all energy is even distributed over an incredibly vast and cold universe. All life dies out.

The contrary less supported theory is big crunch, in which the universe snaps back for a second big bang.

Obviously the first theory is kinda depressing.

But both of those imply the end of the universe meaning that it has an end therefore it cannot be infinite and eternal
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2010 10:15:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/30/2010 10:06:39 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 7/30/2010 10:04:55 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/30/2010 10:02:12 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 7/30/2010 10:01:03 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/30/2010 8:46:36 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 7/29/2010 11:38:58 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 7/29/2010 8:47:50 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
The universe has an ending therefore it can't be infinite and eternal

Not according to current scientiific consensus.

Then what happens when entropy reaches 100%

Not a lot.
The current consensus is for heat death, that the universe will run itself down.

Which means?

The stars run down, all energy is even distributed over an incredibly vast and cold universe. All life dies out.

The contrary less supported theory is big crunch, in which the universe snaps back for a second big bang.

Obviously the first theory is kinda depressing.

But both of those imply the end of the universe meaning that it has an end therefore it cannot be infinite and eternal

Hmm... whose post are you reading? The former does not suggest that the universe has an end, the latter suggests only that the current form of the universe is temporary the universe may very well be eternal.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
brian_eggleston
Posts: 3,347
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2010 10:59:39 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/30/2010 8:32:20 AM, RoyLatham wrote:
At 7/29/2010 11:36:32 PM, Mr_Jack_Nixon wrote:
At 7/29/2010 11:33:08 PM, RoyLatham wrote:

As to what happened before the Big Bang, to my knowledge that remains an unsettled question. One possibility is that things were going on in dimensions other than the three physical dimensions and time.

My idea is that this universe is just one of in a perpetual series of expanding, then contracting universes.

Let me explain: this episode (the universe we are in now) began with the big bang but eventually the force of gravity will overtake the force of the initial explosion (which is still accelerating the expansion of the universe, as it happens) and the universe will collapse in on itself to form a huge black hole.

However, because Hawking radiation means that black holes are not absolutely stable, the universe in that state will not remain dormant forever.

After a period of time, the destabilising effect of Hawking radiation will trigger another big bang, leading to another period of expansion, which will be followed by another contraction, black hole, big bang, and so on ad infinitum.
Visit the burglars' bulletin board: http://www.break-in-news.com...
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2010 11:48:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/29/2010 3:07:11 PM, Mr_Jack_Nixon wrote:
If my understanding is right, they say that there has to be an uncaused cause, else everything would simply be caused by something before, and that caused by something before, and back and back. The reasoning that you can't fill up the infinite expanse of time with finite events makes sense to me, and also the reasoning that there had to be an uncaused cause makes sense.
Makes sense to me too.

Also, does our universe consist of a finite amount of space or an infinite amount of space?
I think it's a finite amount. Also, I think there is no reason to believe that actual infinites are expressible in nature.

I have thought about this, and have concluded (with the following reasoning) that the universe is infinitely big with an infinite amount of matter.
I disagree.

All matter, no matter how far apart, is attracted to other matter. We call the phenomenon gravity.
Gravity is simply the curvature of space-time. Do realize that the further apart objects are the weaker (inverse-square) the force of gravity. It's exponentially weaker.

Imagine a finite universe that has only two beads in it. The beads are 43 light years across.
Those are some motherf_cking beads! What are they made of? Are they in motion? Are they accelerating? Details.

Eventually, the two beads will be next to each other.
Not necessarily. If they are far apart enough and/or accelerating away from each other...

If our universe was finite, it would be very much the same way. All matter would attract each other and, eventually, all matter would be concentrated into a black hole.
Not necessarily. I thought I read some where that there was the possibility of open, closed, or flat universe. I tend to think that it might be flat.

The universe, being an uncaused cause, has existed forever, which would have allowed time for the matter to collapse into the black hole.
Existed is past tense, meaning that you are saying that forever already happened. But how can this be? Forever is an ongoing never ending process which means that it is never complete. There is a today, there is a tomorrow, therefore forever can NEVER be in the past.

We aren't in a black hole right now, therefore, the universe couldn't have a finite amount of matter.
Or it didn't exist forever or we are on our way to becoming a Blackhole?

The only other alternative is an infinite amount of matter, which could only exist in an infinite universe.
I disagree: definitely NOT the ONLY other alternative.

I have told others this theory of mine before, and they all have told me the Big Bang disproves this, but they fail to tell me how.
Because, observations point away from your theory. The BB leads us to believe that the Universe had a beginning.

At 7/29/2010 11:33:08 PM, RoyLatham wrote:
If God is an excepting that does not require a cause, then the universe may also be an exception that doesn't require a cause. Going directly to the universe as the exception is simpler.
I agree. However, I prefer to think that God is that "uncaused initial state" or that He caused it to go boom!

The premise that everything requires a cause is unproved.
This is true; however, observation says otherwise.

There appears to be many things described by modern physics that are inherently random. "Inherently random" means the world wouldn't work if they were not random.
Inherently random means that the 'randomness' is a fundamental part of these things as described by the thoery in modern physics being used (quantum mechanics.) As far as the world not working, it wouldn't work according to the interpretation of QM that purports the inherent randomness but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work according to others.

At 7/30/2010 10:59:39 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
After a period of time, the destabilising effect of Hawking radiation will trigger another big bang, leading to another period of expansion, which will be followed by another contraction, black hole, big bang, and so on ad infinitum.
A fine example of perpetual motion! Completely ignoring the laws of thermo dynamics.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2010 11:58:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
There cannot be an infinite amount of matter in the universe because that violates the 1st law of thermodynamics
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2010 12:02:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/30/2010 11:58:02 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
There cannot be an infinite amount of matter in the universe because that violates the 1st law of thermodynamics
Well, sort of cause I don't think it can be applied to open systems.
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.
Strikeeagle84015
Posts: 867
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2010 12:03:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/30/2010 12:02:03 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 7/30/2010 11:58:02 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
There cannot be an infinite amount of matter in the universe because that violates the 1st law of thermodynamics
Well, sort of cause I don't think it can be applied to open systems.

But if we accept that our universe is not an isolated system then most of our understanding of physics is turned upside down.
: At 8/17/2010 7:17:56 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
: Hey dawg, i herd you like evangelical trolls so we put a bible thumper in yo bible thumper so you can troll while you troll!

Arguing with an atheist about God is very similar to arguing with a blind man about what the Sistine Chapel looks like
Marilyn Poe

Strikeeagle wrote
The only way I will stop believing in God is if he appeared before me and told me that he did not exist.
tBoonePickens
Posts: 3,266
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
7/30/2010 12:24:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 7/30/2010 12:03:10 PM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
At 7/30/2010 12:02:03 PM, tBoonePickens wrote:
At 7/30/2010 11:58:02 AM, Strikeeagle84015 wrote:
There cannot be an infinite amount of matter in the universe because that violates the 1st law of thermodynamics
Well, sort of cause I don't think it can be applied to open systems.

But if we accept that our universe is not an isolated system then most of our understanding of physics is turned upside down.
I agree. I think that the Universe is finite BUT unbounded: there is not edge. I believe that the Universe is ALL that IS; consequently, there is no "outside" the Universe.

I believe there is an Alpha & Omega; beginning & end. Though it's so tempting to accept the cyclical Universe!
WOS
: At 10/3/2012 4:28:52 AM, Wallstreetatheist wrote:
: Without nothing existing, you couldn't have something.