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What is information? And why does it matter?

DI0GENES
Posts: 4
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4/22/2015 9:59:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Information exists independent of matter and energy. It is also exclusively the product of intelligence. This is a scientific fact. Every form of communication in existence is the product of intelligent minds. There are no exceptions.

It is also a fact that matter or energy cannot produce something that is immaterial. Information is immaterial. Unlike matter and energy, information can be created and destroyed.

DNA contains meaningful information. It is read and acted upon by the cellular machinery of every cell. Where did this information come from? As I stated earlier, information is the product of intelligence.

One can only conclude that life is the product of intelligence. The product of a Creator. Can anyone refute my logic?
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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4/22/2015 10:49:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/22/2015 9:59:53 PM, DI0GENES wrote:
Information exists independent of matter and energy. It is also exclusively the product of intelligence. This is a scientific fact. Every form of communication in existence is the product of intelligent minds. There are no exceptions.

It is also a fact that matter or energy cannot produce something that is immaterial. Information is immaterial. Unlike matter and energy, information can be created and destroyed.

DNA contains meaningful information. It is read and acted upon by the cellular machinery of every cell. Where did this information come from? As I stated earlier, information is the product of intelligence.

One can only conclude that life is the product of intelligence. The product of a Creator. Can anyone refute my logic?

Yes. Easily.

What you do not do at any point is explain what it is about information that means it requires intelligence.

What you are really doing is subtly equivocating. In that in the first part you are talking about ABSTRACT information; and the second you are talking about non-abstract information; and comparing the two as if they are the same thing.

Abstract information, like language, pictures, ciphers, messages, binary, etc; is information that is divorced from what it is representing. IE: if I paint a dog; that painting is abstract information; it is not a dog, it is a form of representation that YOU understand to mean the animal Canis Familiaris.

What makes this data abstract; is that the information does not exist as a direct consequence of what it is representing.

It is only abstract information that requires intelligence; as because it is divorced from what it is representing it cannot exist without an intermediary to create it; to form such a representation without direct causation requires a middle man that is required to understand or interpret the representation.

Fine.

DNA is not abstract information.

DNA at represents proteins, coding sequences and a whole lot of other chemistry; and what it represents is directly caused by the representation based on basic chemistry. As a result, there is no need for a middle man to understand and interpret the data, and thus there is no need for intelligence.

With a basic DNA sequence that duplicates; this sequence can be modified, duplicated, changed, added to, deleted, which gives the conceptual possibility of that DNA sequence turning into any other sequence given enough duplications limited only by those sequences made impossible by deleterious pathways that may appear.

Just to further reject your argument; which is essentially inventing an intelligent designed by definition rather than by evidence, I would add this:

Molecular biology and evolutionary biology is fundamentally a study of the information DNA can appear and change using natural processes. There is much that is well understood, and demonstrates that while we have not yet demonstrated the way that DNA has changed since the last universal common ancestor; the processes and methods by which DNA change occurs and can be selected for conceptually demonstrates that information in DNA can come from natural chemical processes.

While you can argue that "Information in DNA cannot come from natural processes", this is directly contradicted by evolution that actually demonstrates that it probably can regardless of how cute you decide to make your definitions.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/22/2015 11:45:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/22/2015 9:59:53 PM, DI0GENES wrote:
Information exists independent of matter and energy.
No, Diogenes; information is a property of systems of matter and energy. This is covered by an area of applied mathematics, science and engineering called Information Theory [http://en.wikipedia.org...], and relates to the amount of order and entropy in a system.

It is also exclusively the product of intelligence.
Also incorrect. As a counter-example, a fire produces information as it burns. Firelight contains the signature electron energy levels of different elements, and one can tell just from spectrographic analysis what material is burning in the fire. In this fashion, astronomers can tell what stars made of, for example.

It is also a fact that matter or energy cannot produce something that is immaterial.
That is not a fact. A product of the order and entropy in a system, information is created and destroyed routinely through physical and chemical change.

DNA contains meaningful information.
It would be more correct to say that DNA contains replicative information -- i.e, information which, under certain conditions, can produce replicated molecules.

We can construe meaning from that information because we're asking questions with specific meaning to us. Like the colour spectrum in a fire, DNA structure is informative, but the information has no intrinsic meaning. It's the intention behind our questions that makes this information meaningful.

One can only conclude that life is the product of intelligence. Can anyone refute my logic?
Yes. This is an example of teleological fallacy: the idea that because DNA can replicate, it was designed to do so. Similar fallacies include the idea that rabbits have white tails so they'd be easy for hunters to shoot; and bananas are bent and hand-sized so they'd be easy to peel.

Replication is common in nature. It appears in crystalline structures of all solids, for example. While complex, DNA replication is also very mechanical. Some recent scientific experiments have shown natural conditions under which certain non-replicating organic molecules can recombine to become predominantly replicating molecules in as little as forty generations. (Please poke for links.)

A further misconception is that if there were sign of intelligence in matter, scientists would somehow ignore it for fear of 'catching' religion.

If an intelligently-designed artefact of any kind were discovered by science, that'd be a career-making realisation. There'd be a mad race to explore it and publish regardless of its impacts on present theories; and scientifically, there's no link from a conjecture of intelligent design to theology anyway.

The reason intelligence isn't postulated biologically is that it's unsupported by evidence. The people proposing it are for the most part, scientifically ignorant. They're not practicing scientists, but theologists and philosophers with religious and political agendas. They're seeing what they want to see, and promoting it regardless of evidence for political effect.

I hope that helps.
DI0GENES
Posts: 4
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4/22/2015 11:46:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/22/2015 10:49:50 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 4/22/2015 9:59:53 PM, DI0GENES wrote:
Information exists independent of matter and energy. It is also exclusively the product of intelligence. This is a scientific fact. Every form of communication in existence is the product of intelligent minds. There are no exceptions.

It is also a fact that matter or energy cannot produce something that is immaterial. Information is immaterial. Unlike matter and energy, information can be created and destroyed.

DNA contains meaningful information. It is read and acted upon by the cellular machinery of every cell. Where did this information come from? As I stated earlier, information is the product of intelligence.

One can only conclude that life is the product of intelligence. The product of a Creator. Can anyone refute my logic?

Yes. Easily.

What you do not do at any point is explain what it is about information that means it requires intelligence.

What you are really doing is subtly equivocating. In that in the first part you are talking about ABSTRACT information; and the second you are talking about non-abstract information; and comparing the two as if they are the same thing.

Abstract information, like language, pictures, ciphers, messages, binary, etc; is information that is divorced from what it is representing. IE: if I paint a dog; that painting is abstract information; it is not a dog, it is a form of representation that YOU understand to mean the animal Canis Familiaris.

What makes this data abstract; is that the information does not exist as a direct consequence of what it is representing.

It is only abstract information that requires intelligence; as because it is divorced from what it is representing it cannot exist without an intermediary to create it; to form such a representation without direct causation requires a middle man that is required to understand or interpret the representation.

Fine.

DNA is not abstract information.

DNA at represents proteins, coding sequences and a whole lot of other chemistry; and what it represents is directly caused by the representation based on basic chemistry. As a result, there is no need for a middle man to understand and interpret the data, and thus there is no need for intelligence.

With a basic DNA sequence that duplicates; this sequence can be modified, duplicated, changed, added to, deleted, which gives the conceptual possibility of that DNA sequence turning into any other sequence given enough duplications limited only by those sequences made impossible by deleterious pathways that may appear.


Just to further reject your argument; which is essentially inventing an intelligent designed by definition rather than by evidence, I would add this:


Molecular biology and evolutionary biology is fundamentally a study of the information DNA can appear and change using natural processes. There is much that is well understood, and demonstrates that while we have not yet demonstrated the way that DNA has changed since the last universal common ancestor; the processes and methods by which DNA change occurs and can be selected for conceptually demonstrates that information in DNA can come from natural chemical processes.

While you can argue that "Information in DNA cannot come from natural processes", this is directly contradicted by evolution that actually demonstrates that it probably can regardless of how cute you decide to make your definitions.

You completely missed the point I was trying to make. DNA contains complex specified information. This information is what controls all the intricate processes that occur in a cell. This information is read and acted upon to produce and maintain the intricate process that we call life. A cell is the most complex thing in existence. It is equivalent in complexity to a major city. The information needed to manage something this complex is staggering. You claim that the information in DNA is the result of simple chemistry. Some people will believe anything.
DI0GENES
Posts: 4
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4/22/2015 11:50:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/22/2015 11:45:18 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 4/22/2015 9:59:53 PM, DI0GENES wrote:
Information exists independent of matter and energy.
No, Diogenes; information is a property of systems of matter and energy. This is covered by an area of applied mathematics, science and engineering called Information Theory [http://en.wikipedia.org...], and relates to the amount of order and entropy in a system.

It is also exclusively the product of intelligence.
Also incorrect. As a counter-example, a fire produces information as it burns. Firelight contains the signature electron energy levels of different elements, and one can tell just from spectrographic analysis what material is burning in the fire. In this fashion, astronomers can tell what stars made of, for example.

It is also a fact that matter or energy cannot produce something that is immaterial.
That is not a fact. A product of the order and entropy in a system, information is created and destroyed routinely through physical and chemical change.

DNA contains meaningful information.
It would be more correct to say that DNA contains replicative information -- i.e, information which, under certain conditions, can produce replicated molecules.

We can construe meaning from that information because we're asking questions with specific meaning to us. Like the colour spectrum in a fire, DNA structure is informative, but the information has no intrinsic meaning. It's the intention behind our questions that makes this information meaningful.

One can only conclude that life is the product of intelligence. Can anyone refute my logic?
Yes. This is an example of teleological fallacy: the idea that because DNA can replicate, it was designed to do so. Similar fallacies include the idea that rabbits have white tails so they'd be easy for hunters to shoot; and bananas are bent and hand-sized so they'd be easy to peel.

Replication is common in nature. It appears in crystalline structures of all solids, for example. While complex, DNA replication is also very mechanical. Some recent scientific experiments have shown natural conditions under which certain non-replicating organic molecules can recombine to become predominantly replicating molecules in as little as forty generations. (Please poke for links.)

A further misconception is that if there were sign of intelligence in matter, scientists would somehow ignore it for fear of 'catching' religion.

If an intelligently-designed artefact of any kind were discovered by science, that'd be a career-making realisation. There'd be a mad race to explore it and publish regardless of its impacts on present theories; and scientifically, there's no link from a conjecture of intelligent design to theology anyway.

The reason intelligence isn't postulated biologically is that it's unsupported by evidence. The people proposing it are for the most part, scientifically ignorant. They're not practicing scientists, but theologists and philosophers with religious and political agendas. They're seeing what they want to see, and promoting it regardless of evidence for political effect.

I hope that helps.
I was referring to complex specified information. Which is the product of intelligence. DNA contains complex specified information. How do you explain this?
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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4/23/2015 12:01:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/22/2015 11:46:14 PM, DI0GENES wrote:
At 4/22/2015 10:49:50 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 4/22/2015 9:59:53 PM, DI0GENES wrote:
Information exists independent of matter and energy. It is also exclusively the product of intelligence. This is a scientific fact. Every form of communication in existence is the product of intelligent minds. There are no exceptions.

It is also a fact that matter or energy cannot produce something that is immaterial. Information is immaterial. Unlike matter and energy, information can be created and destroyed.

DNA contains meaningful information. It is read and acted upon by the cellular machinery of every cell. Where did this information come from? As I stated earlier, information is the product of intelligence.

One can only conclude that life is the product of intelligence. The product of a Creator. Can anyone refute my logic?

Yes. Easily.

What you do not do at any point is explain what it is about information that means it requires intelligence.

What you are really doing is subtly equivocating. In that in the first part you are talking about ABSTRACT information; and the second you are talking about non-abstract information; and comparing the two as if they are the same thing.

Abstract information, like language, pictures, ciphers, messages, binary, etc; is information that is divorced from what it is representing. IE: if I paint a dog; that painting is abstract information; it is not a dog, it is a form of representation that YOU understand to mean the animal Canis Familiaris.

What makes this data abstract; is that the information does not exist as a direct consequence of what it is representing.

It is only abstract information that requires intelligence; as because it is divorced from what it is representing it cannot exist without an intermediary to create it; to form such a representation without direct causation requires a middle man that is required to understand or interpret the representation.

Fine.

DNA is not abstract information.

DNA at represents proteins, coding sequences and a whole lot of other chemistry; and what it represents is directly caused by the representation based on basic chemistry. As a result, there is no need for a middle man to understand and interpret the data, and thus there is no need for intelligence.

With a basic DNA sequence that duplicates; this sequence can be modified, duplicated, changed, added to, deleted, which gives the conceptual possibility of that DNA sequence turning into any other sequence given enough duplications limited only by those sequences made impossible by deleterious pathways that may appear.


Just to further reject your argument; which is essentially inventing an intelligent designed by definition rather than by evidence, I would add this:


Molecular biology and evolutionary biology is fundamentally a study of the information DNA can appear and change using natural processes. There is much that is well understood, and demonstrates that while we have not yet demonstrated the way that DNA has changed since the last universal common ancestor; the processes and methods by which DNA change occurs and can be selected for conceptually demonstrates that information in DNA can come from natural chemical processes.

While you can argue that "Information in DNA cannot come from natural processes", this is directly contradicted by evolution that actually demonstrates that it probably can regardless of how cute you decide to make your definitions.

You completely missed the point I was trying to make. DNA contains complex specified information. This information is what controls all the intricate processes that occur in a cell. This information is read and acted upon to produce and maintain the intricate process that we call life. A cell is the most complex thing in existence. It is equivalent in complexity to a major city. The information needed to manage something this complex is staggering. You claim that the information in DNA is the result of simple chemistry. Some people will believe anything.

Oh I completely get the point you are trying to make. It's just wrong, and I explained why. Feel free to actually challenge the points I raise at any point you chose.

To show that DNA requires intelligence, you must show what contents of DNA cannot be constructed by natural means or contains an abstraction that requires intelligent interpretation: You see, I actually went to the lengths of explaining what properties information is required to have that definitely requires intelligent: You simply state "It's evidence, and requires intelligence", and I also showed that DNA does not contain those properties.

Neither you, nor Dembski can simply say it contains WibblyWobblyInformationyWinformationy stuff and WibblyWobblyInformationyWinformationy stuff requires intelligence, ergo DNA requires intelligence which is basically all you are doing here.

Complexity does not in and of itself a require intelligence and as I pointed out Evolution itself is a study of how natural processes can create such complexity over time and generations.

While DNA is complex, there is a well defined, well evidenced mechanisms by which DNA can change to do new additional things over generations (IE: create new complex specified information, whatever that phrase actually means), and with the processes we see in operation right now, the information and complexity using natural processes can be explained using plausible natural processes.

As there are plausible, well evidenced processes that show DNA doesn't require intelligence for it contain information, or complexity, and can be used to explain the existance of such information and complexity already present; the evidence shows that your argument DNA definitely requires intelligence is simply neat wordplay with no grounding in actual evidence or fact.
RuvDraba
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4/23/2015 12:15:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/22/2015 11:50:08 PM, DI0GENES wrote:
I was referring to complex specified information. Which is the product of intelligence. DNA contains complex specified information. How do you explain this?
DNA's information is not complex when you think how long it has been developing. The DNA for a virus can be coded in about 1.8kb -- about the size it takes to store a ping-sound on a computer -- while the DNA for mammals is around 2-3Gb, including that for humans. Since life is thought to have begun about 4,000,000,000 years ago, it means that the genome that eventually became human grew by an average of one bit every three years -- that's quite glacial, when you think of how much biomass is on the planet, reproducing every year.

I don't know what you mean by the qualification 'specified', though. I'm aware that the term originates with philosopher and theologian William Dembski, but it has no scientifically-accepted definition that I'm aware of, and appears to incorporate a teleological fallacy in itself.

So, if you can cite a peer-reviewed paper from a reputable scientific journal clearly defining it, I'll try to help.
Otokage
Posts: 2,360
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4/23/2015 4:30:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/22/2015 9:59:53 PM, DI0GENES wrote:
Information exists independent of matter and energy. It is also exclusively the product of intelligence. This is a scientific fact.

That's a self-destructive argument Dio. If we accept that DNA contains information, and that only intelligent agency can create information, then intelligence must be or contain information too. This necesarily means that God is information, and as such he should have been created by prior existing information/mind, which begs the question "who created God?". If, to solve the issue, you accept God created himself, or always existed, I could also say that DNA either created itself, or either always existed.

Every form of communication in existence is the product of intelligent minds. There are no exceptions.

Languages, or any information made by intelligent agency, are not the only information that exist in nature according to information theory.: any stochastic process that produces a discrete sequence of symbols chosen from a finite set can be considered a source of information. So nature can indeed produce information.

It is also a fact that matter or energy cannot produce something that is immaterial. Information is immaterial. Unlike matter and energy, information can be created and destroyed.

P1) My brain is physical, therefore made of matter and energy.
P2) My brain can produce information, which is immaterial.
C) Therefore matter and energy can produce something that is immaterial.

DNA contains meaningful information. It is read and acted upon by the cellular machinery of every cell.

Not really. Since AUA is methionine in E.coli, but isoleucine in mithocondrias, this means that either DNA message is not being read, or either it doesn't really port a message.

Where did this information come from? As I stated earlier, information is the product of intelligence.

One can only conclude that life is the product of intelligence. The product of a Creator. Can anyone refute my logic?
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/23/2015 1:15:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/22/2015 9:59:53 PM, DI0GENES wrote:
Information exists independent of matter and energy.

Is there ever an instance of information existing independant of matter or energy?

It is also exclusively the product of intelligence. This is a scientific fact. Every form of communication in existence is the product of intelligent minds. There are no exceptions.

Its also exclusively the product of humans, too. Remember this, it will come in handy later.

It is also a fact that matter or energy cannot produce something that is immaterial. Information is immaterial. Unlike matter and energy, information can be created and destroyed.

If my understanding of physics is well enough, isnt Hawking radiation the creation of energy? Which would make your claim, wrong, though ill have to confirm this with someone who is actually versed in physics, as im a biologist. :(

DNA contains meaningful information. It is read and acted upon by the cellular machinery of every cell. Where did this information come from? As I stated earlier, information is the product of intelligence.

One can only conclude that life is the product of intelligence. The product of a Creator. Can anyone refute my logic?

I hope youve still remembered what i said above. Life is the product of humans. Can you refute my logic without refuting your own logic? Go ahead.
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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4/23/2015 1:30:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/22/2015 9:59:53 PM, DI0GENES wrote:
Information exists independent of matter and energy. It is also exclusively the product of intelligence. This is a scientific fact. Every form of communication in existence is the product of intelligent minds. There are no exceptions.

It is also a fact that matter or energy cannot produce something that is immaterial. Information is immaterial. Unlike matter and energy, information can be created and destroyed.

DNA contains meaningful information. It is read and acted upon by the cellular machinery of every cell. Where did this information come from? As I stated earlier, information is the product of intelligence.

One can only conclude that life is the product of intelligence. The product of a Creator. Can anyone refute my logic?

It's very important to have a solid grasp on relevant concepts before attempting to apply them to a logical argument, which by the way, has little bearing in scientific discussions.

If you want to take an information theoretic approach to explaining the information contained in genomes, you should first study information theory, starting with Claude Shannon's papers. It is clear that you don't understand information in this context. Then you should study genomics and bioinformatics.

That way, when you make a case for anything using those concepts, you don't get it completely wrong and end up with incoherent, unintelligible, and uneducated speculation.

Let me ask you a question. Which has more information: a gene sequence of length L, or a sequence of random letters (from the set {A,B,C,D}) of the same length L?
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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4/23/2015 1:32:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 1:15:13 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/22/2015 9:59:53 PM, DI0GENES wrote:
Information exists independent of matter and energy.

Is there ever an instance of information existing independant of matter or energy?

It is also exclusively the product of intelligence. This is a scientific fact. Every form of communication in existence is the product of intelligent minds. There are no exceptions.

Its also exclusively the product of humans, too. Remember this, it will come in handy later.

It is also a fact that matter or energy cannot produce something that is immaterial. Information is immaterial. Unlike matter and energy, information can be created and destroyed.

If my understanding of physics is well enough, isnt Hawking radiation the creation of energy? Which would make your claim, wrong, though ill have to confirm this with someone who is actually versed in physics, as im a biologist. :(

DNA contains meaningful information. It is read and acted upon by the cellular machinery of every cell. Where did this information come from? As I stated earlier, information is the product of intelligence.

One can only conclude that life is the product of intelligence. The product of a Creator. Can anyone refute my logic?

I hope youve still remembered what i said above. Life is the product of humans. Can you refute my logic without refuting your own logic? Go ahead.

You're a biologist!? *gets his crosses, garlic, and holy water*

Actually, all I have is the garlic, and I'm gonna save that for dinner.

Also, what do you study? I love learning about what other people study.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/23/2015 1:36:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 1:32:46 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:15:13 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/22/2015 9:59:53 PM, DI0GENES wrote:
Information exists independent of matter and energy.

Is there ever an instance of information existing independant of matter or energy?

It is also exclusively the product of intelligence. This is a scientific fact. Every form of communication in existence is the product of intelligent minds. There are no exceptions.

Its also exclusively the product of humans, too. Remember this, it will come in handy later.

It is also a fact that matter or energy cannot produce something that is immaterial. Information is immaterial. Unlike matter and energy, information can be created and destroyed.

If my understanding of physics is well enough, isnt Hawking radiation the creation of energy? Which would make your claim, wrong, though ill have to confirm this with someone who is actually versed in physics, as im a biologist. :(

DNA contains meaningful information. It is read and acted upon by the cellular machinery of every cell. Where did this information come from? As I stated earlier, information is the product of intelligence.

One can only conclude that life is the product of intelligence. The product of a Creator. Can anyone refute my logic?

I hope youve still remembered what i said above. Life is the product of humans. Can you refute my logic without refuting your own logic? Go ahead.

You're a biologist!? *gets his crosses, garlic, and holy water*

Actually, all I have is the garlic, and I'm gonna save that for dinner.

Also, what do you study? I love learning about what other people study.

Microbiology/molecular biology. Since i already graduated, i no longer study per se, except for random foraging through websites nowadays.

Making Japanese-style curry tonight for me, so im gonna need some of that garlic from you. *grab*
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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4/23/2015 1:43:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 1:36:13 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:32:46 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:15:13 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/22/2015 9:59:53 PM, DI0GENES wrote:
Information exists independent of matter and energy.

Is there ever an instance of information existing independant of matter or energy?

It is also exclusively the product of intelligence. This is a scientific fact. Every form of communication in existence is the product of intelligent minds. There are no exceptions.

Its also exclusively the product of humans, too. Remember this, it will come in handy later.

It is also a fact that matter or energy cannot produce something that is immaterial. Information is immaterial. Unlike matter and energy, information can be created and destroyed.

If my understanding of physics is well enough, isnt Hawking radiation the creation of energy? Which would make your claim, wrong, though ill have to confirm this with someone who is actually versed in physics, as im a biologist. :(

DNA contains meaningful information. It is read and acted upon by the cellular machinery of every cell. Where did this information come from? As I stated earlier, information is the product of intelligence.

One can only conclude that life is the product of intelligence. The product of a Creator. Can anyone refute my logic?

I hope youve still remembered what i said above. Life is the product of humans. Can you refute my logic without refuting your own logic? Go ahead.

You're a biologist!? *gets his crosses, garlic, and holy water*

Actually, all I have is the garlic, and I'm gonna save that for dinner.

Also, what do you study? I love learning about what other people study.

Microbiology/molecular biology. Since i already graduated, i no longer study per se, except for random foraging through websites nowadays.

Making Japanese-style curry tonight for me, so im gonna need some of that garlic from you. *grab*

Wait, I thought garlic was deadly for biologists. Or is that just garlic cooked with holy water? Either way, you're of the devil, right?

So you didn't stay in academia, I take it. Well, what was your thesis on? I know very little about biology, but I've done some bioinformatics.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/23/2015 5:13:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 1:43:09 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:36:13 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:32:46 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:15:13 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/22/2015 9:59:53 PM, DI0GENES wrote:
Information exists independent of matter and energy.

Is there ever an instance of information existing independant of matter or energy?

It is also exclusively the product of intelligence. This is a scientific fact. Every form of communication in existence is the product of intelligent minds. There are no exceptions.

Its also exclusively the product of humans, too. Remember this, it will come in handy later.

It is also a fact that matter or energy cannot produce something that is immaterial. Information is immaterial. Unlike matter and energy, information can be created and destroyed.

If my understanding of physics is well enough, isnt Hawking radiation the creation of energy? Which would make your claim, wrong, though ill have to confirm this with someone who is actually versed in physics, as im a biologist. :(

DNA contains meaningful information. It is read and acted upon by the cellular machinery of every cell. Where did this information come from? As I stated earlier, information is the product of intelligence.

One can only conclude that life is the product of intelligence. The product of a Creator. Can anyone refute my logic?

I hope youve still remembered what i said above. Life is the product of humans. Can you refute my logic without refuting your own logic? Go ahead.

You're a biologist!? *gets his crosses, garlic, and holy water*

Actually, all I have is the garlic, and I'm gonna save that for dinner.

Also, what do you study? I love learning about what other people study.

Microbiology/molecular biology. Since i already graduated, i no longer study per se, except for random foraging through websites nowadays.

Making Japanese-style curry tonight for me, so im gonna need some of that garlic from you. *grab*

Wait, I thought garlic was deadly for biologists. Or is that just garlic cooked with holy water? Either way, you're of the devil, right?

So you didn't stay in academia, I take it. Well, what was your thesis on? I know very little about biology, but I've done some bioinformatics.

My thesis was on microbiology. I fear if i reveal more you will find out my real name, since my thesis is posted on one of the websites at my uni. :(
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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4/23/2015 6:01:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 5:13:54 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:43:09 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:36:13 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:32:46 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:15:13 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/22/2015 9:59:53 PM, DI0GENES wrote:
Information exists independent of matter and energy.

Is there ever an instance of information existing independant of matter or energy?

It is also exclusively the product of intelligence. This is a scientific fact. Every form of communication in existence is the product of intelligent minds. There are no exceptions.

Its also exclusively the product of humans, too. Remember this, it will come in handy later.

It is also a fact that matter or energy cannot produce something that is immaterial. Information is immaterial. Unlike matter and energy, information can be created and destroyed.

If my understanding of physics is well enough, isnt Hawking radiation the creation of energy? Which would make your claim, wrong, though ill have to confirm this with someone who is actually versed in physics, as im a biologist. :(

DNA contains meaningful information. It is read and acted upon by the cellular machinery of every cell. Where did this information come from? As I stated earlier, information is the product of intelligence.

One can only conclude that life is the product of intelligence. The product of a Creator. Can anyone refute my logic?

I hope youve still remembered what i said above. Life is the product of humans. Can you refute my logic without refuting your own logic? Go ahead.

You're a biologist!? *gets his crosses, garlic, and holy water*

Actually, all I have is the garlic, and I'm gonna save that for dinner.

Also, what do you study? I love learning about what other people study.

Microbiology/molecular biology. Since i already graduated, i no longer study per se, except for random foraging through websites nowadays.

Making Japanese-style curry tonight for me, so im gonna need some of that garlic from you. *grab*

Wait, I thought garlic was deadly for biologists. Or is that just garlic cooked with holy water? Either way, you're of the devil, right?

So you didn't stay in academia, I take it. Well, what was your thesis on? I know very little about biology, but I've done some bioinformatics.

My thesis was on microbiology. I fear if i reveal more you will find out my real name, since my thesis is posted on one of the websites at my uni. :(

It must be incredibly unique if the topic would identify you, but I understand the reservation.

Can I ask one more question? Did you do a postdoc?
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/23/2015 6:13:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 5:13:54 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:43:09 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
Well, what was your thesis on? I know very little about biology, but I've done some bioinformatics.
My thesis was on microbiology. I fear if i reveal more you will find out my real name, since my thesis is posted on one of the websites at my uni. :(
Oh yay! Someone who has read real biology papers. :)

[And you're right. It's pretty easy to cyberstalk from a thesis topic if you know when and where it was completed. :)]
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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4/23/2015 6:20:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 5:13:54 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:43:09 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:36:13 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:32:46 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:15:13 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/22/2015 9:59:53 PM, DI0GENES wrote:
Information exists independent of matter and energy.

Is there ever an instance of information existing independant of matter or energy?

It is also exclusively the product of intelligence. This is a scientific fact. Every form of communication in existence is the product of intelligent minds. There are no exceptions.

Its also exclusively the product of humans, too. Remember this, it will come in handy later.

It is also a fact that matter or energy cannot produce something that is immaterial. Information is immaterial. Unlike matter and energy, information can be created and destroyed.

If my understanding of physics is well enough, isnt Hawking radiation the creation of energy? Which would make your claim, wrong, though ill have to confirm this with someone who is actually versed in physics, as im a biologist. :(

DNA contains meaningful information. It is read and acted upon by the cellular machinery of every cell. Where did this information come from? As I stated earlier, information is the product of intelligence.

One can only conclude that life is the product of intelligence. The product of a Creator. Can anyone refute my logic?

I hope youve still remembered what i said above. Life is the product of humans. Can you refute my logic without refuting your own logic? Go ahead.

You're a biologist!? *gets his crosses, garlic, and holy water*

Actually, all I have is the garlic, and I'm gonna save that for dinner.

Also, what do you study? I love learning about what other people study.

Microbiology/molecular biology. Since i already graduated, i no longer study per se, except for random foraging through websites nowadays.

Making Japanese-style curry tonight for me, so im gonna need some of that garlic from you. *grab*

Wait, I thought garlic was deadly for biologists. Or is that just garlic cooked with holy water? Either way, you're of the devil, right?

So you didn't stay in academia, I take it. Well, what was your thesis on? I know very little about biology, but I've done some bioinformatics.

My thesis was on microbiology. I fear if i reveal more you will find out my real name, since my thesis is posted on one of the websites at my uni. :(

P.S. I didn't realize that information could potentially lead to revealing your identity, so thanks for letting me know.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/23/2015 10:27:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 6:01:25 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 4/23/2015 5:13:54 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:43:09 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:36:13 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:32:46 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:15:13 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/22/2015 9:59:53 PM, DI0GENES wrote:
Information exists independent of matter and energy.

Is there ever an instance of information existing independant of matter or energy?

It is also exclusively the product of intelligence. This is a scientific fact. Every form of communication in existence is the product of intelligent minds. There are no exceptions.

Its also exclusively the product of humans, too. Remember this, it will come in handy later.

It is also a fact that matter or energy cannot produce something that is immaterial. Information is immaterial. Unlike matter and energy, information can be created and destroyed.

If my understanding of physics is well enough, isnt Hawking radiation the creation of energy? Which would make your claim, wrong, though ill have to confirm this with someone who is actually versed in physics, as im a biologist. :(

DNA contains meaningful information. It is read and acted upon by the cellular machinery of every cell. Where did this information come from? As I stated earlier, information is the product of intelligence.

One can only conclude that life is the product of intelligence. The product of a Creator. Can anyone refute my logic?

I hope youve still remembered what i said above. Life is the product of humans. Can you refute my logic without refuting your own logic? Go ahead.

You're a biologist!? *gets his crosses, garlic, and holy water*

Actually, all I have is the garlic, and I'm gonna save that for dinner.

Also, what do you study? I love learning about what other people study.

Microbiology/molecular biology. Since i already graduated, i no longer study per se, except for random foraging through websites nowadays.

Making Japanese-style curry tonight for me, so im gonna need some of that garlic from you. *grab*

Wait, I thought garlic was deadly for biologists. Or is that just garlic cooked with holy water? Either way, you're of the devil, right?

So you didn't stay in academia, I take it. Well, what was your thesis on? I know very little about biology, but I've done some bioinformatics.

My thesis was on microbiology. I fear if i reveal more you will find out my real name, since my thesis is posted on one of the websites at my uni. :(

It must be incredibly unique if the topic would identify you, but I understand the reservation.

Can I ask one more question? Did you do a postdoc?

Post doctorate.... dissertation? No, only masters. Im holding off a PhD, not sure if ill ever get it, itll take atleast 3 years to complete so im not ready for such a commitment and am unable, financially, to spend that much time right now.
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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4/23/2015 10:46:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 10:27:38 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/23/2015 6:01:25 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 4/23/2015 5:13:54 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:43:09 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:36:13 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:32:46 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:15:13 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/22/2015 9:59:53 PM, DI0GENES wrote:
Information exists independent of matter and energy.

Is there ever an instance of information existing independant of matter or energy?

It is also exclusively the product of intelligence. This is a scientific fact. Every form of communication in existence is the product of intelligent minds. There are no exceptions.

Its also exclusively the product of humans, too. Remember this, it will come in handy later.

It is also a fact that matter or energy cannot produce something that is immaterial. Information is immaterial. Unlike matter and energy, information can be created and destroyed.

If my understanding of physics is well enough, isnt Hawking radiation the creation of energy? Which would make your claim, wrong, though ill have to confirm this with someone who is actually versed in physics, as im a biologist. :(

DNA contains meaningful information. It is read and acted upon by the cellular machinery of every cell. Where did this information come from? As I stated earlier, information is the product of intelligence.

One can only conclude that life is the product of intelligence. The product of a Creator. Can anyone refute my logic?

I hope youve still remembered what i said above. Life is the product of humans. Can you refute my logic without refuting your own logic? Go ahead.

You're a biologist!? *gets his crosses, garlic, and holy water*

Actually, all I have is the garlic, and I'm gonna save that for dinner.

Also, what do you study? I love learning about what other people study.

Microbiology/molecular biology. Since i already graduated, i no longer study per se, except for random foraging through websites nowadays.

Making Japanese-style curry tonight for me, so im gonna need some of that garlic from you. *grab*

Wait, I thought garlic was deadly for biologists. Or is that just garlic cooked with holy water? Either way, you're of the devil, right?

So you didn't stay in academia, I take it. Well, what was your thesis on? I know very little about biology, but I've done some bioinformatics.

My thesis was on microbiology. I fear if i reveal more you will find out my real name, since my thesis is posted on one of the websites at my uni. :(

It must be incredibly unique if the topic would identify you, but I understand the reservation.

Can I ask one more question? Did you do a postdoc?

Post doctorate.... dissertation? No, only masters. Im holding off a PhD, not sure if ill ever get it, itll take atleast 3 years to complete so im not ready for such a commitment and am unable, financially, to spend that much time right now.

Oh, sorry. I thought you had already done your PhD and I was asking if you had a post-doctorate position after that.
tkubok
Posts: 5,044
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4/24/2015 12:05:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/23/2015 10:46:07 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 4/23/2015 10:27:38 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/23/2015 6:01:25 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 4/23/2015 5:13:54 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:43:09 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:36:13 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:32:46 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 4/23/2015 1:15:13 PM, tkubok wrote:
At 4/22/2015 9:59:53 PM, DI0GENES wrote:
Information exists independent of matter and energy.

Is there ever an instance of information existing independant of matter or energy?

It is also exclusively the product of intelligence. This is a scientific fact. Every form of communication in existence is the product of intelligent minds. There are no exceptions.

Its also exclusively the product of humans, too. Remember this, it will come in handy later.

It is also a fact that matter or energy cannot produce something that is immaterial. Information is immaterial. Unlike matter and energy, information can be created and destroyed.

If my understanding of physics is well enough, isnt Hawking radiation the creation of energy? Which would make your claim, wrong, though ill have to confirm this with someone who is actually versed in physics, as im a biologist. :(

DNA contains meaningful information. It is read and acted upon by the cellular machinery of every cell. Where did this information come from? As I stated earlier, information is the product of intelligence.

One can only conclude that life is the product of intelligence. The product of a Creator. Can anyone refute my logic?

I hope youve still remembered what i said above. Life is the product of humans. Can you refute my logic without refuting your own logic? Go ahead.

You're a biologist!? *gets his crosses, garlic, and holy water*

Actually, all I have is the garlic, and I'm gonna save that for dinner.

Also, what do you study? I love learning about what other people study.

Microbiology/molecular biology. Since i already graduated, i no longer study per se, except for random foraging through websites nowadays.

Making Japanese-style curry tonight for me, so im gonna need some of that garlic from you. *grab*

Wait, I thought garlic was deadly for biologists. Or is that just garlic cooked with holy water? Either way, you're of the devil, right?

So you didn't stay in academia, I take it. Well, what was your thesis on? I know very little about biology, but I've done some bioinformatics.

My thesis was on microbiology. I fear if i reveal more you will find out my real name, since my thesis is posted on one of the websites at my uni. :(

It must be incredibly unique if the topic would identify you, but I understand the reservation.

Can I ask one more question? Did you do a postdoc?

Post doctorate.... dissertation? No, only masters. Im holding off a PhD, not sure if ill ever get it, itll take atleast 3 years to complete so im not ready for such a commitment and am unable, financially, to spend that much time right now.

Oh, sorry. I thought you had already done your PhD and I was asking if you had a post-doctorate position after that.

If i were a hot girl and my grades were good enough i suppose i couldve skipped the masters part.