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# Negative Numbers

 Posts: 433 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 6/16/2015 2:10:27 AMPosted: 3 years agoI would like to discuss whether Negative Numbers have any relevance to the physical Universe. I believe Negative Numbers to be a Philosophy rather than having any true value to Mathematics. I believe that as a set, Negative Numbers contradict real Positive Numbers, and therefore should be considered a logical fallacy.I will start by explaining why I believe Negative Numbers are a Philosophy. Negative Numbers are a relatively new idea. There are several Historical records that indicate Negative Numbers were used in some way to describe Debt in certain ancient cultures. Debt is the only purpose mankind has ever had any need of Negative Numbers until the late 18th century. Philosophical mathematicians such as John Wallis, Casper Wessel, and William Hamilton changed this when they developed a set of rules to deal with Negative Numbers.Which brings me to my next concern with Negative Numbers. The reason mankind was so reluctant to accept them was because of it's square root. A negative times a negative equals a positive, so there is no square root of -1. Because of this, most Mathematicians throughout History denied Negative Numbers, and Diophantus called such an idea "absurd".That was until the 1500's, when Bombelli developed rules for working with what he called "Imaginary Numbers". Therefore, because the square root of a negative does not exist, we now "imagine" that such a number exists, and continue working out the problem based on Uncertain premises (Uncertainty Principle).However, to do such a thing defies the Laws of Logic. Consider the following.i^2=(sq. rt. -1)^2=(sq. rt. -1^2)=sq. rt. 1=1This is a contradiction, and therefore it is Logically acceptable to deny any assertions based on the premises of Negative Numbers. Their acceptance has led to much Philosophical nonsense, and they are merely a figment of our imagination.I hope we can have a fun discussion about this. Thank you all and God bless you.
 Posts: 10,221 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 6/16/2015 7:00:14 AMPosted: 3 years agoAt 6/16/2015 2:10:27 AM, anonymouswho wrote:I would like to discuss whether Negative Numbers have any relevance to the physical Universe. I believe Negative Numbers to be a Philosophy rather than having any true value to Mathematics. I believe that as a set, Negative Numbers contradict real Positive Numbers, and therefore should be considered a logical fallacy.I will start by explaining why I believe Negative Numbers are a Philosophy. Negative Numbers are a relatively new idea. There are several Historical records that indicate Negative Numbers were used in some way to describe Debt in certain ancient cultures. Debt is the only purpose mankind has ever had any need of Negative Numbers until the late 18th century. Philosophical mathematicians such as John Wallis, Casper Wessel, and William Hamilton changed this when they developed a set of rules to deal with Negative Numbers.Which brings me to my next concern with Negative Numbers. The reason mankind was so reluctant to accept them was because of it's square root. A negative times a negative equals a positive, so there is no square root of -1. Because of this, most Mathematicians throughout History denied Negative Numbers, and Diophantus called such an idea "absurd".That was until the 1500's, when Bombelli developed rules for working with what he called "Imaginary Numbers". Therefore, because the square root of a negative does not exist, we now "imagine" that such a number exists, and continue working out the problem based on Uncertain premises (Uncertainty Principle).However, to do such a thing defies the Laws of Logic. Consider the following.i^2=(sq. rt. -1)^2=(sq. rt. -1^2)=sq. rt. 1=1This is a contradiction, and therefore it is Logically acceptable to deny any assertions based on the premises of Negative Numbers. Their acceptance has led to much Philosophical nonsense, and they are merely a figment of our imagination.I hope we can have a fun discussion about this. Thank you all and God bless you.The last equality is in error. There are two possible values for sq. rt 1, namely 1 and -1. You chose the first and ignored the second, which you had obfuscated by squaring.Using index notation illustrates where you went wrong.i^2=((-1)^1/2)^2=(-1)^1=-1Ori^2=((-1)^1/2)x((-1)^1/2)=((-1)^(1/2 + 1/2)=((-1)^1)=-1
 Posts: 2,402 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 6/16/2015 1:57:22 PMPosted: 3 years agoOne thing that can help is to realize that mathematics is a world ofits own that can be used to MODEL things in the real world, but, likeany model, is not IDENTICAL to that real world. Negative numbers arepart of the "model world", but the real world--nor so much.But.....there are some situations where negative numbers make sense (and a negative answer to a problem might be valid) and others where they do not--so that anegative answer just means there is no solution to the originalproblem).But real world apps? Yeah..a few I reckon. How bout the weather? LOLIn the case of temperatures, the 0 point (except inabsolute temperature) is arbitrary, so that SOME negative values arepossible, but others are not.Finance? Well...In the case of money, a negative answer may or may not be valid. Ifyou are just spending money from a basic checking account, a negativebalance means that you are overdrawn--but it DOES still have meaning,because you now owe that much money to the bank. .So.....how to interpret the negative result depends on the situation; oftenpositive and negative are just two sides of the same coin, each withits own interpretation.In physics.......I am not aware of any usage of negative numbers. (Hmm..I wonder if they would be used in equation regarding anti-matter? LOL)Ah...another field they could be used is in geometry--or navigation. Like on a graph with an x, y axis and you are mapping coordinates.Because it's helpful to assign numbers to locations in space, called coordinates, in order to measure distances. For these coordinates to make sense, we need to choose a reference point from which distances will be measured in order to assign coordinates. (This reference point can be assigned the value of zero in each of the three spatial dimensions. )So...consider one direction, or axis, in relation to the reference point, like the north-south direction. We might decide to give a location a positive coordinate on the north-south axis if it lies north of the reference point.But If it lies south of the reference point, we would then give it a negative value. Setting up a coordinate system like this allows to easily calculate distances between two locations using the ordinary laws of math applied to the coordinates--including the laws of negative numbers.For example, if there is one location that is assigned a coordinate of 3 units north, and another that is assigned a coordinate of 2 units south, then the distance between them is .......3 - (-2) = 5 units. Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
 Posts: 433 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 6/17/2015 12:48:10 AMPosted: 3 years agoAt 6/16/2015 1:57:22 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:One thing that can help is to realize that mathematics is a world ofits own that can be used to MODEL things in the real world, but, likeany model, is not IDENTICAL to that real world. Negative numbers arepart of the "model world", but the real world--nor so much.But.....there are some situations where negative numbers make sense (and a negative answer to a problem might be valid) and others where they do not--so that anegative answer just means there is no solution to the originalproblem).But real world apps? Yeah..a few I reckon. How bout the weather? LOLIn the case of temperatures, the 0 point (except inabsolute temperature) is arbitrary, so that SOME negative values arepossible, but others are not.Finance? Well...In the case of money, a negative answer may or may not be valid. Ifyou are just spending money from a basic checking account, a negativebalance means that you are overdrawn--but it DOES still have meaning,because you now owe that much money to the bank. .So.....how to interpret the negative result depends on the situation; oftenpositive and negative are just two sides of the same coin, each withits own interpretation.In physics.......I am not aware of any usage of negative numbers. (Hmm..I wonder if they would be used in equation regarding anti-matter? LOL)Ah...another field they could be used is in geometry--or navigation. Like on a graph with an x, y axis and you are mapping coordinates.Because it's helpful to assign numbers to locations in space, called coordinates, in order to measure distances. For these coordinates to make sense, we need to choose a reference point from which distances will be measured in order to assign coordinates. (This reference point can be assigned the value of zero in each of the three spatial dimensions. )So...consider one direction, or axis, in relation to the reference point, like the north-south direction. We might decide to give a location a positive coordinate on the north-south axis if it lies north of the reference point.But If it lies south of the reference point, we would then give it a negative value. Setting up a coordinate system like this allows to easily calculate distances between two locations using the ordinary laws of math applied to the coordinates--including the laws of negative numbers.For example, if there is one location that is assigned a coordinate of 3 units north, and another that is assigned a coordinate of 2 units south, then the distance between them is .......3 - (-2) = 5 units. Hello my friend. Thanks for joining the discussion. If you read what I wrote to dee-em, I already addressed the temperature situation, as well as the debt since I believe debt to be an imaginary scenario. Since nothing physical is involved. The coordinate situation is strange to me. Why not make both West and East positive numbers? We could call it 2W+3E=5?If I take a line graph, and wish to make a square with an area of 16 cubits, then of the top right side of my line I can square 2, which will give me an area of 4 cubits. If I then multiply the left top side, I can multiple -2x2 and I will get an area of -4 cubits. The same can be done on the right bottom side. However, when I get to the bottom left side, I must multiply -2(-2), and that is going to put my corner in the same position as the top right corner. I will then have a 90" angle, and nothing physically solid.If I do the same thing, using positive numbers going in all directions, I get a perfect square with the middle point being Zero. As long as I understand the direction I wish to go, there is no need to bring Negative Numbers into the equation.Does that make any sense? Thank you friend and God bless you.
 Posts: 1,023 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 6/17/2015 2:08:06 AMPosted: 3 years agoI honestly can't tell if this thread and most of the comments in it are serious. Negative numbers are or should be considered to be logically fallacious? WTF did I just read?
 Posts: 433 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 6/17/2015 3:15:11 AMPosted: 3 years agoAt 6/17/2015 2:08:06 AM, Enji wrote:I honestly can't tell if this thread and most of the comments in it are serious. Negative numbers are or should be considered to be logically fallacious? WTF did I just read?Hello friend, it is good to meet you. Thank you for joining us. Yes I'm serious. Do you have any concerns with anything I've said?
 Posts: 5,200 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 6/17/2015 8:50:30 AMPosted: 3 years agoAt 6/16/2015 2:10:27 AM, anonymouswho wrote:I would like to discuss whether Negative Numbers have any relevance to the physical Universe. I believe Negative Numbers to be a Philosophy rather than having any true value to Mathematics. I believe that as a set, Negative Numbers contradict real Positive Numbers, and therefore should be considered a logical fallacy.I will start by explaining why I believe Negative Numbers are a Philosophy. Negative Numbers are a relatively new idea. There are several Historical records that indicate Negative Numbers were used in some way to describe Debt in certain ancient cultures. Debt is the only purpose mankind has ever had any need of Negative Numbers until the late 18th century. Philosophical mathematicians such as John Wallis, Casper Wessel, and William Hamilton changed this when they developed a set of rules to deal with Negative Numbers.Which brings me to my next concern with Negative Numbers. The reason mankind was so reluctant to accept them was because of it's square root. A negative times a negative equals a positive, so there is no square root of -1. Because of this, most Mathematicians throughout History denied Negative Numbers, and Diophantus called such an idea "absurd".That was until the 1500's, when Bombelli developed rules for working with what he called "Imaginary Numbers". Therefore, because the square root of a negative does not exist, we now "imagine" that such a number exists, and continue working out the problem based on Uncertain premises (Uncertainty Principle).However, to do such a thing defies the Laws of Logic. Consider the following.i^2=(sq. rt. -1)^2=(sq. rt. -1^2)=sq. rt. 1=1This is a contradiction, and therefore it is Logically acceptable to deny any assertions based on the premises of Negative Numbers. Their acceptance has led to much Philosophical nonsense, and they are merely a figment of our imagination.I hope we can have a fun discussion about this. Thank you all and God bless you.Of course negative numbers have associations to real world properties. Numbers are just descriptions of real word properties.1. Negative cash flow. It means you are spending more money than what you are taking in, a very real situation, which would be award having both money out and money in being positive. You could not represent the final net position without a negative number and would always have to represent with two positive numbers which would represent a negative position anyway.2. Cartesian plane, a negative indicates a direction. Since direction can go for infinity if a starting point (0,0)and negative direction (left & down) was not used it would be very impractical to use.3. Vectors become worthless without negatives. How would I ever calculate the net force when dealing with many forces in different directions?I think you are getting the point. Summary and net calculations are worthless without negative numbers.
 Posts: 751 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 6/17/2015 10:06:43 AMPosted: 3 years agoAt 6/16/2015 2:10:27 AM, anonymouswho wrote:I would like to discuss whether Negative Numbers have any relevance to the physical Universe. I believe Negative Numbers to be a Philosophy rather than having any true value to Mathematics. I believe that as a set, Negative Numbers contradict real Positive Numbers, and therefore should be considered a logical fallacy.1.) Positive numbers don't have any relevance to the physical universe either. We use math to try to model the physical universe. But the physical universe is what it is without our concepts of numbers or how they may relate to modeling the universe.2.) Mathematics in general falls in the domain of abstraction and logic (call this philosophy if you want). Negative numbers are just as valid in that domain as are positive numbers.3.) Negative numbers do contradict positive numbers in that if you add an equally negative number to an equally positive number you get 0. Perfect contradiction. No logical fallacy there though.
 Posts: 1,023 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 6/17/2015 11:23:13 PMPosted: 3 years agoFloid hits the nail on the head. Negative numbers are no more or less valid/fallacious than positive numbers. You are essentially arguing against subtraction.
 Posts: 751 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 6/18/2015 12:57:39 PMPosted: 3 years agoRemember, my main argument is that Negative Numbers should have no relevance to physDescribe to me mathematically the acceleration of a ball thrown into the air without using negative numbers.
 Posts: 1,023 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 6/18/2015 3:51:14 PMPosted: 3 years agoAt 6/18/2015 10:52:41 AM, anonymouswho wrote:Remember, my main argument is that Negative Numbers should have no relevance to physical reality.CP symmetry was postulated in the late 1950's. Scientists proposed that if you reversed the charges of particles (e.g. replace an electron with a positron) and reversed spatial parity (i.e. flip the sign of all 3 spatial coordinates), the laws of physics and behaviour of physical systems would remain unchanged. However, experimental discovery of CP-violations prove this is not the case. If CP symmetry held, maybe you'd have an argument that negative numbers have no relevance to physical reality because you could just flip-flop signs and everything would remain the same. CP-violation, however, proves that the sign of charges and parity is relevant to physical reality.