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Can Science be Art?

Saint_of_Me
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6/18/2015 2:56:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Hey fellow mutants!

I want to piggy back on a previous post I did on another thread and use it to begin a thread here on the Science Forum, as I believe it will be of interest to you science buffs.

The OP on this other thread asked us if we consider any discipline that follows the STEM criteria, like Math; Physics; Biology; Engineering, et al., to be possibly construed as Art. An Art form.

I readily answered in the affirmative. And here is why I said I thought it was.......

Sure.

The first of those disciplines you mentioned that often utilizes artistic-type methods--at least IMHO--would be Genetics. Gene splicing; Genetic Modification; Yes...the much maligned GMO! LOL

The way those guys mix and enhance and eradicate and add genes I think can be construed as artistic. As they are creating something. Even something that can arguably called "beauty."

When physicists and Mathematicians create an especially efficient and streamlined Equation--or proof, they sometimes refer to it as "elegant." I like this term and think it has art-like qualities.

Same deal with the software geeks: the coders. There is an art in creating an especially elegant and effective program. And if this program has to do with video, like in those wonderful image-driven movies we love, like Avatar or Jurassic Park or the Avengers..then man, that is definitely art! CGI.


So...what say you?

Thanks for your sincere posts, and your time.

Drew.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,181
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6/18/2015 6:26:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Diagnostic medicine, anesthesiology, and other parts of the medical sciences are more art than science. Performance art.

In the performance of their vocation, any individual can express themselves artistically, although I do not believe that addresses your concerns.
Saint_of_Me
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6/18/2015 8:57:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/18/2015 6:26:47 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
Diagnostic medicine, anesthesiology, and other parts of the medical sciences are more art than science. Performance art.

In the performance of their vocation, any individual can express themselves artistically, although I do not believe that addresses your concerns.

I would be interested to know how you think anesthesiology is performance art? I mean, I don't necessarily disagree--as I said before I am all about some science being art, but this particular discipline is interesting.

I work at a VA hospital, and I was suprised to learn from a co-worker a few months ago that Anesthesiologists are the highest-paid MDs! Guess it makes sense in a way, as they are keeping the patient right on the borderline of life and death during surgery.

Sounds like you might have some insight?

Thanks!
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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6/19/2015 1:30:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/18/2015 2:56:20 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Hey fellow mutants!

I want to piggy back on a previous post I did on another thread and use it to begin a thread here on the Science Forum, as I believe it will be of interest to you science buffs.

The OP on this other thread asked us if we consider any discipline that follows the STEM criteria, like Math; Physics; Biology; Engineering, et al., to be possibly construed as Art. An Art form.

I readily answered in the affirmative. And here is why I said I thought it was.......

Sure.

The first of those disciplines you mentioned that often utilizes artistic-type methods--at least IMHO--would be Genetics. Gene splicing; Genetic Modification; Yes...the much maligned GMO! LOL

The way those guys mix and enhance and eradicate and add genes I think can be construed as artistic. As they are creating something. Even something that can arguably called "beauty."

When physicists and Mathematicians create an especially efficient and streamlined Equation--or proof, they sometimes refer to it as "elegant." I like this term and think it has art-like qualities.

Same deal with the software geeks: the coders. There is an art in creating an especially elegant and effective program. And if this program has to do with video, like in those wonderful image-driven movies we love, like Avatar or Jurassic Park or the Avengers..then man, that is definitely art! CGI.


So...what say you?

Thanks for your sincere posts, and your time.

Drew.

To tie this in with the inane thread regarding supposedly useless imaginary numbers, the Mandelbrot set produces stunning artwork by sampling complex numbers. Admittedly it's more mathematics than physical science. Some examples of such art here:

https://commons.wikimedia.org...
RuvDraba
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6/19/2015 5:11:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think of art as the evocation of emotion and reflection. Since we are emotional, reflective creatures. art can be embodied in virtually any medium we might use to communicate -- which I think is any medium.

Science, of course, is the accountable, empirical investigation of our shared world. But there's nothing in science to say why we are investigating, or what we might do with what we find.

So of course art can draw from STEM disciplines. What is Science Fiction? Science Fantasy? Industrial Art? Architecture? The technothriller? Molecular gastronomy? The artistic/technological/engineering multidiscipline called simply Design?

But by itself, alas, art need not be science. The evocation of emotion and reflection need not be accountable or empirical, and often defies both. Whatever ideas Keats and other romantics might have entertained, all beauty is not truth, and not all truth is beautiful.
dee-em
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6/19/2015 5:54:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/18/2015 2:56:20 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Hey fellow mutants!

When physicists and Mathematicians create an especially efficient and streamlined Equation--or proof, they sometimes refer to it as "elegant." I like this term and think it has art-like qualities.

Same deal with the software geeks: the coders. There is an art in creating an especially elegant and effective program. And if this program has to do with video, like in those wonderful image-driven movies we love, like Avatar or Jurassic Park or the Avengers..then man, that is definitely art! CGI.

Hmmm. I think you may be confusing the tools used to produce art with the art itself. It's like attributing the Mona Lisa to the paint and brushes.

Having said that, I take your point about elegant software code. As a software developer from way back, if I saw a particularly elegantly written algorithm, that was like a work of art to me. In fact, the opposite was true too. Poorly expressed code written by others offended me. If I was in a position to rework the work, I often could not resist doing so. This sometimes got me into trouble both personal (upsetting the author) and professional (inadvertantly introducing some subtle bug). That never stopped me though, if I was sufficiently outraged by ugly, inefficient code.
Welfare-Worker
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6/19/2015 7:21:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/18/2015 8:57:27 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 6/18/2015 6:26:47 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
Diagnostic medicine, anesthesiology, and other parts of the medical sciences are more art than science. Performance art.

In the performance of their vocation, any individual can express themselves artistically, although I do not believe that addresses your concerns.

I would be interested to know how you think anesthesiology is performance art? I mean, I don't necessarily disagree--as I said before I am all about some science being art, but this particular discipline is interesting.

I work at a VA hospital, and I was suprised to learn from a co-worker a few months ago that Anesthesiologists are the highest-paid MDs! Guess it makes sense in a way, as they are keeping the patient right on the borderline of life and death during surgery.

Sounds like you might have some insight?

Thanks!

This is a good article with background.
We can and must understand anesthesiology as both a science, and as a compassionate (and mystical) art if we are to have full and meaningful practices.
http://mkeamy.typepad.com...

A mystical art, I like that. Very telling.
~ ~

This poem by an anesthesiologist is art in itself, but expresses the art of their profession.

A science of laws of physics" the motion
of gases,
of constrict and expand.
Theories of heat and pressure,
dilate and contract.
A stitch of needles and threads, often
in acid excess.
Volumes of breath, more
or less.
Power of flows, highs
or lows.
Choice of dextro and levo, same
yet de novo.
A science of alpha and beta, support
or oppose.
A medley of surge
and collapse.

An art of magic,
the magic of thought,
the thought of fusion,
the fusion of heart and soul.
The balance of depth and light, more and less
of pain and joy, give
or lose.
A play of safe,
of touch and numb, for all
or some.
A dream of life,
a sketch of real.
http://anesthesiology.pubs.asahq.org...

~ ~
Those two sources best express what I was referring to.

This also:
'Anesthesia Is Really More an Art Than a Science'
Considering the nature of consciousness in the frame of the phenomenon of patients feeling awake during general anesthesia, an Atlantic story was discussed on ABC's World News.
http://www.theatlantic.com...

Here is a brief interview where a doctor discusses "The Science and Art of Anesthesiology", and refers to the art of patient care.
http://mtpr.org...

There is this lecture that was offered, titled "The Art and Science of Anesthesiology. Not JUST Preoperative Assessment"
http://continuingeducation.dcri.duke.edu...

Many of the articles that can be found that link art and anesthesiology, are in this vein:

It"s been said that there"s an "art" and "science" to the practice of anesthesia. And it"s probably fair to say that most of us lean more toward the "science" part in our practices, classrooms and laboratories. If there"s one thing that the various coordinators of the journal Anesthesiology have learned over the years, however it"s that there"s a lot more "art" in the scientists than you might imagine.
http://www.asahq.org...

It recognizes the long standing reference to anesthesiology as art, but uses this as a springboard to talk not about the art aspect of a science, but other traditional art forms, related indirectly to medicine.

I have at various times in my life read or seen references to the "mystical" aspects of anesthesia.
Of course the patient"s mind and body are always important, patients are individuals, but we see this in anesthesiology more than other medical fields.
A radiologist can look at an x-ray and not need all of the nuances of the person"s ingestions for the past 48 hours.
Three Xanax that morning instead of the prescribed one may require adjustment by the anesthesiologist.

An Anesthesiologist is like a dead reckoning pilot, while most doctors are more like instrument pilots. Talking to the surgery patient is good bed side manors in most cases, but essential for the anesthesiologist.

From my first reference:

In anesthesiology, it is all too easy to lose oneself in the mechanics of placing an endotracheal tube, and to forget that, in the extraordinary act of inducing a trance-like state barely distinguishable from death in a fellow human being, you are acting squarely within the realm of myth. "Sleep and death are brothers" is an ancient Greek proverb, and from the mythologic perspective, is quite literally true. The god of Sleep, Hypnos is the younger brother of the god of death, Thanatos; both children of Nyx, the goddess of night. And therein lies a glimpse at the beauty of mythology and archetype; the blurring of the distinction between what is real, and what is metaphorically and romantically true or essential (containing the essence of a thing). Our Western penchant for deconstruction and de-mystification has the unfortunate and unintended consequence of driving the essence of things out of our daily lives. We slay beauty, the essence, with the real.
Saint_of_Me
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6/19/2015 12:27:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Wow...thanks WW! That was an informative post. Lost of good links.

I believe too that it left no doubt as to Anesthesia being an art form.

I liked the last lines of the poem where he said "a touch of numb for all." LOL

Reminds me of the old Pink Floyd song!

Thanks again.

Drew.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Welfare-Worker
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6/19/2015 12:31:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/19/2015 12:27:44 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Wow...thanks WW! That was an informative post. Lost of good links.

I believe too that it left no doubt as to Anesthesia being an art form.

I liked the last lines of the poem where he said "a touch of numb for all." LOL

Reminds me of the old Pink Floyd song!

Thanks again.

Drew.

Yes, Comfortably numb.

It was bad art that led to the death of Michael Jackson, not bad Science.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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6/19/2015 12:34:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/19/2015 5:54:48 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 6/18/2015 2:56:20 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Hey fellow mutants!

When physicists and Mathematicians create an especially efficient and streamlined Equation--or proof, they sometimes refer to it as "elegant." I like this term and think it has art-like qualities.

Same deal with the software geeks: the coders. There is an art in creating an especially elegant and effective program. And if this program has to do with video, like in those wonderful image-driven movies we love, like Avatar or Jurassic Park or the Avengers..then man, that is definitely art! CGI.

Hmmm. I think you may be confusing the tools used to produce art with the art itself. It's like attributing the Mona Lisa to the paint and brushes.

Having said that, I take your point about elegant software code. As a software developer from way back, if I saw a particularly elegantly written algorithm, that was like a work of art to me. In fact, the opposite was true too. Poorly expressed code written by others offended me. If I was in a position to rework the work, I often could not resist doing so. This sometimes got me into trouble both personal (upsetting the author) and professional (inadvertantly introducing some subtle bug). That never stopped me though, if I was sufficiently outraged by ugly, inefficient code.

There is a book I read a few months ago on this topic called "Geek Sublime: The Art of Code and the Code of Art" that you might be interested in. The gentleman who wrote it was, if I recall, a Hindu Indian and a coder, and he tied-in the art of coding with some Hindu mystical stuff and also ancient art works. It was a bit over my head but you could probably get more out of it than I did.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Saint_of_Me
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6/19/2015 12:37:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/19/2015 12:31:35 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/19/2015 12:27:44 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Wow...thanks WW! That was an informative post. Lost of good links.

I believe too that it left no doubt as to Anesthesia being an art form.

I liked the last lines of the poem where he said "a touch of numb for all." LOL

Reminds me of the old Pink Floyd song!

Thanks again.

Drew.

Yes, Comfortably numb.

It was bad art that led to the death of Michael Jackson, not bad Science.

Oh yeah..that's right. MJ was taking a med (I forget the name) to sleep that is usually used to knock people out for surgery! Yikes! Was MJ being administered that med by an MD? Like IV before bedtimes? I was under the impression he was self-medicating.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Welfare-Worker
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6/19/2015 4:40:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/19/2015 12:37:09 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 6/19/2015 12:31:35 PM, Welfare-Worker wrote:
At 6/19/2015 12:27:44 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Wow...thanks WW! That was an informative post. Lost of good links.

I believe too that it left no doubt as to Anesthesia being an art form.

I liked the last lines of the poem where he said "a touch of numb for all." LOL

Reminds me of the old Pink Floyd song!

Thanks again.

Drew.

Yes, Comfortably numb.

It was bad art that led to the death of Michael Jackson, not bad Science.

Oh yeah..that's right. MJ was taking a med (I forget the name) to sleep that is usually used to knock people out for surgery! Yikes! Was MJ being administered that med by an MD? Like IV before bedtimes? I was under the impression he was self-medicating.

There was an MD 'supervising', but in another room.
He had enough money that self-medicating was probability the reality.
He was doing bad art, and killed himself.
Otokage
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6/21/2015 2:31:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/18/2015 2:56:20 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Hey fellow mutants!

I want to piggy back on a previous post I did on another thread and use it to begin a thread here on the Science Forum, as I believe it will be of interest to you science buffs.

The OP on this other thread asked us if we consider any discipline that follows the STEM criteria, like Math; Physics; Biology; Engineering, et al., to be possibly construed as Art. An Art form.

I readily answered in the affirmative. And here is why I said I thought it was.......

Sure.

The first of those disciplines you mentioned that often utilizes artistic-type methods--at least IMHO--would be Genetics. Gene splicing; Genetic Modification; Yes...the much maligned GMO! LOL

The way those guys mix and enhance and eradicate and add genes I think can be construed as artistic. As they are creating something. Even something that can arguably called "beauty."

When physicists and Mathematicians create an especially efficient and streamlined Equation--or proof, they sometimes refer to it as "elegant." I like this term and think it has art-like qualities.

Same deal with the software geeks: the coders. There is an art in creating an especially elegant and effective program. And if this program has to do with video, like in those wonderful image-driven movies we love, like Avatar or Jurassic Park or the Avengers..then man, that is definitely art! CGI.


So...what say you?

Thanks for your sincere posts, and your time.

Drew.

It can. Art is anything which expresses feelings through creativity. In this sense, blacksmithing is both art and science, and so is chemistry. In the field of biology, there's something called "bacteria art", which produces some cool things like this:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...
ironslippers
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6/21/2015 2:45:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Ironically I just posted in economic a similar question asking how art and science reconcile with each other. if something is both art and science doesn't that make it interpretive.
If something is interpretive is that not defined as art?
Everyone stands on their own dung hill and speaks out about someone else's - Nathan Krusemark
Its easier to criticize and hate than it is to support and create - I Ron Slippers
Sidewalker
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6/22/2015 6:51:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Science most appreciates a theory that provides a mechanism by which we can attempt to explain, to unify, and to order a vast amount of disparate data into a coherent whole. The preferred model is seen as a principle of unity for an enormous collection of facts that, under its influence, can be organized in a way that provides a maximum of coherence and clarity.

Development of theory is an art, and acceptance of theory in science isn"t about the facts as much as it is about artfully arranging those facts into an elegant theory with aesthetic value, it's very much about beauty.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Skyangel
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6/25/2015 11:50:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/18/2015 2:56:20 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Hey fellow mutants!

I want to piggy back on a previous post I did on another thread and use it to begin a thread here on the Science Forum, as I believe it will be of interest to you science buffs.

The OP on this other thread asked us if we consider any discipline that follows the STEM criteria, like Math; Physics; Biology; Engineering, et al., to be possibly construed as Art. An Art form.

I readily answered in the affirmative. And here is why I said I thought it was.......

Sure.

The first of those disciplines you mentioned that often utilizes artistic-type methods--at least IMHO--would be Genetics. Gene splicing; Genetic Modification; Yes...the much maligned GMO! LOL

The way those guys mix and enhance and eradicate and add genes I think can be construed as artistic. As they are creating something. Even something that can arguably called "beauty."

When physicists and Mathematicians create an especially efficient and streamlined Equation--or proof, they sometimes refer to it as "elegant." I like this term and think it has art-like qualities.

Same deal with the software geeks: the coders. There is an art in creating an especially elegant and effective program. And if this program has to do with video, like in those wonderful image-driven movies we love, like Avatar or Jurassic Park or the Avengers..then man, that is definitely art! CGI.


So...what say you?

Thanks for your sincere posts, and your time.

Drew.

If art is an expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, anything humans do or create is a form of art. That would include any created methods of thinking or reasoning, any imaginations, speculations, hypothesis about anything at all, any maps or diagrams which "paint pictures" of how things might have been once upon a time or how they might be in the future.
Human creativity includes all professions created by humans. Some are obviously more talented in some areas than others but all have a talent in some areas even if it's just the areas of BS which could be referring to bachelor of science or something else. Creative? Of course. All those who have fancy papers on their walls have evidence that they are creative, even if they painted the papers themselves. ;-)