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Proof that brain chemistry enables Psychics?

Saint_of_Me
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6/30/2015 8:20:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
We were recently discussing the idea (mine) than true psychics DO extist, albeit comprising the vast minority of that spurious club of folks who call themseleves Psychics.

I was of the notion that perhpas these people have some sort of abnrormal, or enhanced brain chemistry or activity working for them.

I came across this. OK...YES, you're gonna see the Dr. Oz headline and immediately toss it off as pop psych. But I ask that you keep reading. As there is real science and neurology within.

Seems that psychics may have a decreased level of activity in their temporal lobes. SPECT imaging (Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography) has shown. The idea goes....it is this decreased level that lowers their inhibitions and "ego" which gets in the way of capturing whatever "field" it is out there that enables them to receive their psychic signals. As in pre-cognition; clairavoyance, or Telepathy.

Check it out and see what you think. I found it fairly intriguing.

As always..thanks for your interest.

http://www.doctoroz.com...
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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7/1/2015 3:48:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Drew, the key challenge here is not to provide an explanatory mechanism, but to overcome the prolonged, repeated failure of self-proclaimed psychics to demonstrate significant ability under clinical conditions.

By prolonged, I'm talking at least fifty years of clinical study, but psychic debunking has been going on for over a century.

And the problem with debunking is that it doesn't just invalidate evidence: it produces contrary evidence -- i.e. it adds to the statistical correlation between belief in psychic ability and delusion or deception.

Moreover, psychology has mechanisms to explain the delusion, while stage magicians are adept at debunking deception. So right now, we have a better explanation for belief in psychic ability than the proposition that psychic abilities exist.

A plausible mechanism won't change that, but one repeatable, significant, independently confirmable example of a real psychic would.

Just one.

There's no point discussing mechanisms for something working, until the example is found to show that it actually works. :)
Floid
Posts: 751
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7/1/2015 6:49:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
It seems a classic case of spinning things to support what one wants to be true. From the reference:

"One speculation from the paper was that as overall frontal lobe function decreased, mediums were less inhibited in their abilities. In a similar manner, improvisational music performance is associated with lower levels of frontal lobe activity, which allows for more creative activity."

Ok. I would read this as people who think they have psychic abilities are being shown to have a similar brain pattern as people who are being "creative" or performing "improvisational music". In other words, people who are making stuff up.

That would explain two things:

1. Why people think they do have psychic abilities.
2. Why they can't demonstrate that in controlled test... they are just making it up.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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7/1/2015 11:42:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/30/2015 8:20:06 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
We were recently discussing the idea (mine) than true psychics DO extist, albeit comprising the vast minority of that spurious club of folks who call themseleves Psychics.

I was of the notion that perhpas these people have some sort of abnrormal, or enhanced brain chemistry or activity working for them.

I came across this. OK...YES, you're gonna see the Dr. Oz headline and immediately toss it off as pop psych. But I ask that you keep reading. As there is real science and neurology within.

Seems that psychics may have a decreased level of activity in their temporal lobes. SPECT imaging (Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography) has shown. The idea goes....it is this decreased level that lowers their inhibitions and "ego" which gets in the way of capturing whatever "field" it is out there that enables them to receive their psychic signals. As in pre-cognition; clairavoyance, or Telepathy.

Check it out and see what you think. I found it fairly intriguing.

As always..thanks for your interest.

http://www.doctoroz.com...

Ah, Doctor Oz quackery. We need a pseudoscience forum where this kind of stuff belongs so it doesn't pollute the science forum.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/1/2015 11:45:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 11:42:17 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 6/30/2015 8:20:06 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
We were recently discussing the idea (mine) than true psychics DO extist, albeit comprising the vast minority of that spurious club of folks who call themseleves Psychics.

I was of the notion that perhaps these people have some sort of abnrormal, or enhanced brain chemistry or activity working for them.

I came across this. OK...YES, you're gonna see the Dr. Oz headline and immediately toss it off as pop psych. But I ask that you keep reading. As there is real science and neurology within.

Seems that psychics may have a decreased level of activity in their temporal lobes. SPECT imaging (Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography) has shown. The idea goes....it is this decreased level that lowers their inhibitions and "ego" which gets in the way of capturing whatever "field" it is out there that enables them to receive their psychic signals. As in pre-cognition; clairavoyance, or Telepathy.

Check it out and see what you think. I found it fairly intriguing.

As always..thanks for your interest.

http://www.doctoroz.com...

Ah, Doctor Oz quackery. We need a pseudoscience forum where this kind of stuff belongs so it doesn't pollute the science forum.

Come on, now. I admitted the Oz link was gonna turn some people off, but implored that you read beyond that and looked at some of the findings from the brain-imagery they did on the psychics.

Which IS science. Last time I checked.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,623
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7/1/2015 11:53:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 11:45:19 AM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/1/2015 11:42:17 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 6/30/2015 8:20:06 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
We were recently discussing the idea (mine) than true psychics DO extist, albeit comprising the vast minority of that spurious club of folks who call themseleves Psychics.

I was of the notion that perhaps these people have some sort of abnrormal, or enhanced brain chemistry or activity working for them.

I came across this. OK...YES, you're gonna see the Dr. Oz headline and immediately toss it off as pop psych. But I ask that you keep reading. As there is real science and neurology within.

Seems that psychics may have a decreased level of activity in their temporal lobes. SPECT imaging (Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography) has shown. The idea goes....it is this decreased level that lowers their inhibitions and "ego" which gets in the way of capturing whatever "field" it is out there that enables them to receive their psychic signals. As in pre-cognition; clairavoyance, or Telepathy.

Check it out and see what you think. I found it fairly intriguing.

As always..thanks for your interest.

http://www.doctoroz.com...

Ah, Doctor Oz quackery. We need a pseudoscience forum where this kind of stuff belongs so it doesn't pollute the science forum.

Come on, now. I admitted the Oz link was gonna turn some people off, but implored that you read beyond that and looked at some of the findings from the brain-imagery they did on the psychics.

Which IS science. Last time I checked.

From your link:

"During the channeling session, you can see a marked deactivation of brain activity. "

The brain "deactivates" from watching tv, too. So what?

The article then goes on to admit:

"Of course, these brain changes do not show proof that psychic experience is real "
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/1/2015 12:30:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 11:53:37 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 7/1/2015 11:45:19 AM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/1/2015 11:42:17 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 6/30/2015 8:20:06 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
We were recently discussing the idea (mine) than true psychics DO extist, albeit comprising the vast minority of that spurious club of folks who call themseleves Psychics.

I was of the notion that perhaps these people have some sort of abnrormal, or enhanced brain chemistry or activity working for them.

I came across this. OK...YES, you're gonna see the Dr. Oz headline and immediately toss it off as pop psych. But I ask that you keep reading. As there is real science and neurology within.

Seems that psychics may have a decreased level of activity in their temporal lobes. SPECT imaging (Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography) has shown. The idea goes....it is this decreased level that lowers their inhibitions and "ego" which gets in the way of capturing whatever "field" it is out there that enables them to receive their psychic signals. As in pre-cognition; clairavoyance, or Telepathy.

Check it out and see what you think. I found it fairly intriguing.

As always..thanks for your interest.

http://www.doctoroz.com...

Ah, Doctor Oz quackery. We need a pseudoscience forum where this kind of stuff belongs so it doesn't pollute the science forum.

Come on, now. I admitted the Oz link was gonna turn some people off, but implored that you read beyond that and looked at some of the findings from the brain-imagery they did on the psychics.

Which IS science. Last time I checked.

From your link:

"During the channeling session, you can see a marked deactivation of brain activity. "

The brain "deactivates" from watching tv, too. So what?

The article then goes on to admit:

"Of course, these brain changes do not show proof that psychic experience is real "

Yes...you are correct. No proof.

I was just thinking that since the SPECT did show the inner-workings of the psychic's brains behaved in different manners, that it might hint to a possible "prop" for my idea that this abnormal brain chemistry is one way psychic activity could be facilitated.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/1/2015 12:36:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 6:49:28 AM, Floid wrote:
It seems a classic case of spinning things to support what one wants to be true. From the reference:

"One speculation from the paper was that as overall frontal lobe function decreased, mediums were less inhibited in their abilities. In a similar manner, improvisational music performance is associated with lower levels of frontal lobe activity, which allows for more creative activity."

Ok. I would read this as people who think they have psychic abilities are being shown to have a similar brain pattern as people who are being "creative" or performing "improvisational music". In other words, people who are making stuff up.

That would explain two things:

1. Why people think they do have psychic abilities.
2. Why they can't demonstrate that in controlled test... they are just making it up.

But psychics have performed far above the norm in controlled tests. Also, you will take this as purely anecdotal, but it IS a fact that the vast majority of real psychics do NOT promote their abilities. Indeed, most of them are sorry they have it. Or reticent to come forward in the fear of being labeled as a quack.

Your comparison to performing music as "making stuff up" is sort of short-changing the artists, I believe. Especially when you talk about highly gifted ones like a Miles Davis or a Mozart or a Pablo Picasso.

I prefer to say these guys are engaging in a separate reality, realm, state of mind, "zone"--whatever you wish to call it, that most of us cannot attain. Or visit. And one that places them above us normal folk in that sort of a Spiritual sense. As I DO think that plying art is a very spiritual endeavor.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/1/2015 12:42:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 12:36:47 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/1/2015 6:49:28 AM, Floid wrote:
It seems a classic case of spinning things to support what one wants to be true. From the reference:

"One speculation from the paper was that as overall frontal lobe function decreased, mediums were less inhibited in their abilities. In a similar manner, improvisational music performance is associated with lower levels of frontal lobe activity, which allows for more creative activity."

Ok. I would read this as people who think they have psychic abilities are being shown to have a similar brain pattern as people who are being "creative" or performing "improvisational music". In other words, people who are making stuff up.

That would explain two things:

1. Why people think they do have psychic abilities.
2. Why they can't demonstrate that in controlled test... they are just making it up.

But psychics have performed far above the norm in controlled tests. Also, you will take this as purely anecdotal, but it IS a fact that the vast majority of real psychics do NOT promote their abilities. Indeed, most of them are sorry they have it. Or reticent to come forward in the fear of being labeled as a quack.

Your comparison to performing music as "making stuff up" is sort of short-changing the artists, I believe. Especially when you talk about highly gifted ones like a Miles Davis or a Mozart or a Pablo Picasso.

I prefer to say these guys are engaging in a separate reality, realm, state of mind, "zone"--whatever you wish to call it, that most of us cannot attain. Or visit. And one that places them above us normal folk in that sort of a Spiritual sense. As I DO think that plying art is a very spiritual endeavor.

And...how does a psychic who tests well enough in a controlled setting so as to beat 70 million-to-one odds sound? And these are not even people who have the "full-blown" gift of being psychic. I mentioned in an earlier post that I thought at one time, back in our hunter-gatherer days, we ALL had a far more acute "Sixth Sense" than we do now. (It was on that Sixth Sense thread, in fact)
But that our modern living and tech has eroded that sense.

I stand by that idea.

And this lends it a bit of grist..............http://www.news.cornell.edu...
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
UndeniableReality
Posts: 1,897
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7/1/2015 1:07:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 12:42:42 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/1/2015 12:36:47 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/1/2015 6:49:28 AM, Floid wrote:
It seems a classic case of spinning things to support what one wants to be true. From the reference:

"One speculation from the paper was that as overall frontal lobe function decreased, mediums were less inhibited in their abilities. In a similar manner, improvisational music performance is associated with lower levels of frontal lobe activity, which allows for more creative activity."

Ok. I would read this as people who think they have psychic abilities are being shown to have a similar brain pattern as people who are being "creative" or performing "improvisational music". In other words, people who are making stuff up.

That would explain two things:

1. Why people think they do have psychic abilities.
2. Why they can't demonstrate that in controlled test... they are just making it up.

But psychics have performed far above the norm in controlled tests. Also, you will take this as purely anecdotal, but it IS a fact that the vast majority of real psychics do NOT promote their abilities. Indeed, most of them are sorry they have it. Or reticent to come forward in the fear of being labeled as a quack.

Your comparison to performing music as "making stuff up" is sort of short-changing the artists, I believe. Especially when you talk about highly gifted ones like a Miles Davis or a Mozart or a Pablo Picasso.

I prefer to say these guys are engaging in a separate reality, realm, state of mind, "zone"--whatever you wish to call it, that most of us cannot attain. Or visit. And one that places them above us normal folk in that sort of a Spiritual sense. As I DO think that plying art is a very spiritual endeavor.



And...how does a psychic who tests well enough in a controlled setting so as to beat 70 million-to-one odds sound? And these are not even people who have the "full-blown" gift of being psychic. I mentioned in an earlier post that I thought at one time, back in our hunter-gatherer days, we ALL had a far more acute "Sixth Sense" than we do now. (It was on that Sixth Sense thread, in fact)
But that our modern living and tech has eroded that sense.

I stand by that idea.

And this lends it a bit of grist..............http://www.news.cornell.edu...

Interesting, I'll have to read the paper myself, but when I looked up Daryl Bem's Google scholar profile, these two things came up:

A response suggesting flawed analysis in Bem's study:
Wagenmakers, EJ, Wetzels, R, Borsboom, D, & van der Maas, HL (2011). Why psychologists must change the way they analyze their data: The case of psi: Comment on Bem (2011). Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 100(3), 426-432 DOI: 10.1037/a0022790

And mixed results in attempt at replication:
http://www.newscientist.com...

Still, I'll give it a read after I finish this grant application...
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/1/2015 1:10:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/1/2015 1:07:20 PM, UndeniableReality wrote:
At 7/1/2015 12:42:42 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/1/2015 12:36:47 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/1/2015 6:49:28 AM, Floid wrote:
It seems a classic case of spinning things to support what one wants to be true. From the reference:

"One speculation from the paper was that as overall frontal lobe function decreased, mediums were less inhibited in their abilities. In a similar manner, improvisational music performance is associated with lower levels of frontal lobe activity, which allows for more creative activity."

Ok. I would read this as people who think they have psychic abilities are being shown to have a similar brain pattern as people who are being "creative" or performing "improvisational music". In other words, people who are making stuff up.

That would explain two things:

1. Why people think they do have psychic abilities.
2. Why they can't demonstrate that in controlled test... they are just making it up.

But psychics have performed far above the norm in controlled tests. Also, you will take this as purely anecdotal, but it IS a fact that the vast majority of real psychics do NOT promote their abilities. Indeed, most of them are sorry they have it. Or reticent to come forward in the fear of being labeled as a quack.

Your comparison to performing music as "making stuff up" is sort of short-changing the artists, I believe. Especially when you talk about highly gifted ones like a Miles Davis or a Mozart or a Pablo Picasso.

I prefer to say these guys are engaging in a separate reality, realm, state of mind, "zone"--whatever you wish to call it, that most of us cannot attain. Or visit. And one that places them above us normal folk in that sort of a Spiritual sense. As I DO think that plying art is a very spiritual endeavor.



And...how does a psychic who tests well enough in a controlled setting so as to beat 70 million-to-one odds sound? And these are not even people who have the "full-blown" gift of being psychic. I mentioned in an earlier post that I thought at one time, back in our hunter-gatherer days, we ALL had a far more acute "Sixth Sense" than we do now. (It was on that Sixth Sense thread, in fact)
But that our modern living and tech has eroded that sense.

I stand by that idea.

And this lends it a bit of grist..............http://www.news.cornell.edu...

Interesting, I'll have to read the paper myself, but when I looked up Daryl Bem's Google scholar profile, these two things came up:

A response suggesting flawed analysis in Bem's study:
Wagenmakers, EJ, Wetzels, R, Borsboom, D, & van der Maas, HL (2011). Why psychologists must change the way they analyze their data: The case of psi: Comment on Bem (2011). Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 100(3), 426-432 DOI: 10.1037/a0022790

And mixed results in attempt at replication:
http://www.newscientist.com...

Still, I'll give it a read after I finish this grant application...

Fair enough! Thanks.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.