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Thermodynamic Dissipation Theory

tejretics
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7/13/2015 9:29:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The thermodynamic dissipation theory is the hypothesis that life arose abiotically because of low-entropy conditions on Earth and high-energy concentration in molecules and photons (UV). Biotic molecules can "filter" UV to turn it into infrared radiation, thus increasing entropy state in photons, and can also act as a catalyst for compounds necessary to ensure high-entropy states via Second Law of Thermodynamics. So life arose via abiogenesis to 'relieve' Earth of this 'thermodynamic stress'.

Michaelian 2011 [http://www.earth-syst-dynam.net...] and England 2013 [http://www.englandlab.com...] are great studies on it.

Thoughts?
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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7/13/2015 4:15:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 9:29:38 AM, tejretics wrote:
The thermodynamic dissipation theory is the hypothesis that life arose abiotically because of low-entropy conditions on Earth and high-energy concentration in molecules and photons (UV). Biotic molecules can "filter" UV to turn it into infrared radiation, thus increasing entropy state in photons, and can also act as a catalyst for compounds necessary to ensure high-entropy states via Second Law of Thermodynamics. So life arose via abiogenesis to 'relieve' Earth of this 'thermodynamic stress'.

Michaelian 2011 [http://www.earth-syst-dynam.net...] and England 2013 [http://www.englandlab.com...] are great studies on it.

Thoughts?

Thank you for posting the links, Tej.

Speculation on the relationship of life to entropy dates back to Boltzmann in 1875 [https://en.wikipedia.org...]. It has long been thought likely that the order life seems to produce is likely to come at the cost of greater disorder, however the complexities of biological processes can make it hard to understand the relationship to entropy of the system as a whole.

In this respect, the first paper offers a detailed alternative conjecture on abiogenesis, explaining how conditions created by entropic bias might have helped overcome some statistical hurdles currently being explored by biologists, while the second appears to offer an attempt to handle entropy statistically in self-replicating organisms.

I felt that some of the language introducing the first article in particular, was ill-chosen (e.g. 'entropic imperative'), and that sort of language isn't reflected in the later exposition.

I don't think there's really a case to argue that life appeared as a 'solution' to maximising entropy. I think it'd be fairer to say that growing entropy can manifest in multiple ways chemically and physically, some of which might at times create a bias toward life.

The difference is nuanced, but important, since Creationism is already feeding on its own ignorance and confusion. One doesn't need to add to it unintentionally. :)

Beyond that, I don't have the expertise to judge the viability of the mechanisms themselves. Like all conjectures, they need to go through experiment and expert analysis. It's not for me to prognosticate on what the outcome of that process might be.

Still, interesting stuff. Again, thank you for posting, Tej.
tejretics
Posts: 6,080
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7/14/2015 5:48:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/13/2015 4:15:17 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/13/2015 9:29:38 AM, tejretics wrote:
The thermodynamic dissipation theory is the hypothesis that life arose abiotically because of low-entropy conditions on Earth and high-energy concentration in molecules and photons (UV). Biotic molecules can "filter" UV to turn it into infrared radiation, thus increasing entropy state in photons, and can also act as a catalyst for compounds necessary to ensure high-entropy states via Second Law of Thermodynamics. So life arose via abiogenesis to 'relieve' Earth of this 'thermodynamic stress'.

Michaelian 2011 [http://www.earth-syst-dynam.net...] and England 2013 [http://www.englandlab.com...] are great studies on it.

Thoughts?

Thank you for posting the links, Tej.

Speculation on the relationship of life to entropy dates back to Boltzmann in 1875 [https://en.wikipedia.org...]. It has long been thought likely that the order life seems to produce is likely to come at the cost of greater disorder, however the complexities of biological processes can make it hard to understand the relationship to entropy of the system as a whole.

Entropy isn't really disorder. "Disorder" seems subjective. Entropy is, rather, the measure of energy escaping into more microstates, thus reducing energy concentration in individual molecules.


In this respect, the first paper offers a detailed alternative conjecture on abiogenesis, explaining how conditions created by entropic bias might have helped overcome some statistical hurdles currently being explored by biologists, while the second appears to offer an attempt to handle entropy statistically in self-replicating organisms.

I felt that some of the language introducing the first article in particular, was ill-chosen (e.g. 'entropic imperative'), and that sort of language isn't reflected in the later exposition.

I don't think there's really a case to argue that life appeared as a 'solution' to maximising entropy. I think it'd be fairer to say that growing entropy can manifest in multiple ways chemically and physically, some of which might at times create a bias toward life.

That is the theory, pretty much.


The difference is nuanced, but important, since Creationism is already feeding on its own ignorance and confusion. One doesn't need to add to it unintentionally. :)

Beyond that, I don't have the expertise to judge the viability of the mechanisms themselves. Like all conjectures, they need to go through experiment and expert analysis. It's not for me to prognosticate on what the outcome of that process might be.

Still, interesting stuff. Again, thank you for posting, Tej.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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7/14/2015 7:27:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/14/2015 5:48:14 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 7/13/2015 4:15:17 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Speculation on the relationship of life to entropy dates back to Boltzmann in 1875 [https://en.wikipedia.org...]. It has long been thought likely that the order life seems to produce is likely to come at the cost of greater disorder, however the complexities of biological processes can make it hard to understand the relationship to entropy of the system as a whole.
Entropy isn't really disorder. "Disorder" seems subjective. Entropy is, rather, the measure of energy escaping into more microstates, thus reducing energy concentration in individual molecules.

The energy dispersal account is correct,, but 'disorder' is a very old term associated with entropy, Tej. [https://en.wikipedia.org...] It was introduced by Clausius in 1862, and picked up by Boltzmann, and has some relevance to long-term debates about how (apparently) orderly life can emerge from soup; and how an (apparently) orderly universe emerges with the capacity for order to decay in the first place, which is why I thought it might be interesting to inject.

The term was used throughout much of the 20th century for teaching entropy. It's not subjective, but can be confusing due to micro/macro issues. The energy dispersal account is arguably less confusing (and I understand modern texts now prefer it), but 'disorder' is legit, and has some convenient historical connections with the term 'entropy' in information theory too. :)