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Time Travel Schools of thinking

TyroneShelton
Posts: 19
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7/16/2015 2:03:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This involves scenarios of Time Traveling to the past only

I think we need to define a few schools of how Time Travel would happen without paradox.

Here's a few I just thought of:

Evolution of Scenarios: Whenever a situation defies logic, it wouldnt happen. And the reality we live in is the first time where no scenarios defy logic.

Materialism: As a solution to the butterfly effect, the person who killed his father would change as the continuum updates itself, he wouldnt be able to kill the father.

Blind Materialism: The TT event would have already happened, and only loops can happen. (A loop being where if I killed my current friend by TT from the future, somehow that event would have to play out in the future)

Alternate realities: You can go to the past, but you would create a different reality by changing the past. When you go back to the current time, nothing would have happened.
Imagine there's no heaven
It isn't hard to do
No hell below us
Above us only sky

Imagine all the people
Livin' for today
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/16/2015 2:17:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/16/2015 2:03:11 PM, TyroneShelton wrote:
This involves scenarios of Time Traveling to the past only

I think we need to define a few schools of how Time Travel would happen without paradox.

Here's a few I just thought of:

Evolution of Scenarios: Whenever a situation defies logic, it wouldnt happen. And the reality we live in is the first time where no scenarios defy logic.

Materialism: As a solution to the butterfly effect, the person who killed his father would change as the continuum updates itself, he wouldnt be able to kill the father.

Blind Materialism: The TT event would have already happened, and only loops can happen. (A loop being where if I killed my current friend by TT from the future, somehow that event would have to play out in the future)

Alternate realities: You can go to the past, but you would create a different reality by changing the past. When you go back to the current time, nothing would have happened.

Hey, new meat. How ya doin?

Read this thread I posted a couple months ago. Then get back to me. Tell me your thoughts. And maybe we can continue some time travel convos. thanks.

http://www.debate.org...
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Skynet
Posts: 674
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7/16/2015 9:10:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/16/2015 2:03:11 PM, TyroneShelton wrote:
This involves scenarios of Time Traveling to the past only

I think we need to define a few schools of how Time Travel would happen without paradox.

Here's a few I just thought of:

Evolution of Scenarios: Whenever a situation defies logic, it wouldnt happen. And the reality we live in is the first time where no scenarios defy logic.

Materialism: As a solution to the butterfly effect, the person who killed his father would change as the continuum updates itself, he wouldnt be able to kill the father.

Blind Materialism: The TT event would have already happened, and only loops can happen. (A loop being where if I killed my current friend by TT from the future, somehow that event would have to play out in the future)

Alternate realities: You can go to the past, but you would create a different reality by changing the past. When you go back to the current time, nothing would have happened.

Never heard of Evolution of Scenarios. Please explain further.

I think blind materialism is the only logical conclusion.

Alternate realities is the second most likely, though that would require that the timeline CAN diverge, and if it could, where would it go? Not event wise, but where would it fit? The existence of the multiverse is only theoretical, with no evidence I have seen. I do not believe every quark vibrates itself into infinite possible directions, each creating a new universe. We have no contact with other realities, so we must conclude that it is most likely only this reality exists.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
Such
Posts: 1,110
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7/17/2015 11:27:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/16/2015 2:03:11 PM, TyroneShelton wrote:
This involves scenarios of Time Traveling to the past only

I think we need to define a few schools of how Time Travel would happen without paradox.

Here's a few I just thought of:

Evolution of Scenarios: Whenever a situation defies logic, it wouldnt happen. And the reality we live in is the first time where no scenarios defy logic.

Materialism: As a solution to the butterfly effect, the person who killed his father would change as the continuum updates itself, he wouldnt be able to kill the father.

Blind Materialism: The TT event would have already happened, and only loops can happen. (A loop being where if I killed my current friend by TT from the future, somehow that event would have to play out in the future)

Alternate realities: You can go to the past, but you would create a different reality by changing the past. When you go back to the current time, nothing would have happened.

I personally don't believe that time travel into the past is possible. It would require visitation to a time and place that no longer exists.

The only way I could imagine it happening is if it were to abide by your alternate universe school of thought -- that we would visit a time and place that appeared to be the past as it was, but in a way that does not affect the "future" -- perhaps, the future of that past, but not the future that we can revisit, if in fact we can revisit the future.

Or, perhaps, that visiting the past actually deletes the future...

...but, the fact is that visiting a time in the past that aligns with our current time (or our future) would result in a paradox, because we would technically already know about it, now wouldn't we? It would have already happened.
TyroneShelton
Posts: 19
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7/17/2015 11:36:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Physics doesnt say it is impossible. Just very hard to do. But it could be that you need to build a receiver so that people can travel back from the future.
Imagine there's no heaven
It isn't hard to do
No hell below us
Above us only sky

Imagine all the people
Livin' for today
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/17/2015 1:42:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 11:36:02 AM, TyroneShelton wrote:
Physics doesnt say it is impossible. Just very hard to do. But it could be that you need to build a receiver so that people can travel back from the future.

Did you read the thread I directed you to?

In it you will find the methods which the folks at Project Swiss Watch achieved time travel.

Tell me what you think. But we may have to move our discussion to another thread--as some of the folks here in science believe TT to be psuedo science. Which I fully understand. I used to think that way too!

Let me know.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Such
Posts: 1,110
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7/17/2015 4:45:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 1:42:19 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/17/2015 11:36:02 AM, TyroneShelton wrote:
Physics doesnt say it is impossible. Just very hard to do. But it could be that you need to build a receiver so that people can travel back from the future.

Did you read the thread I directed you to?

In it you will find the methods which the folks at Project Swiss Watch achieved time travel.

Tell me what you think. But we may have to move our discussion to another thread--as some of the folks here in science believe TT to be psuedo science. Which I fully understand. I used to think that way too!

Let me know.

Did scientists from Project Swiss achieve time travel into the past or future?
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/17/2015 4:51:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 4:45:53 PM, Such wrote:
At 7/17/2015 1:42:19 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/17/2015 11:36:02 AM, TyroneShelton wrote:
Physics doesnt say it is impossible. Just very hard to do. But it could be that you need to build a receiver so that people can travel back from the future.

Did you read the thread I directed you to?

In it you will find the methods which the folks at Project Swiss Watch achieved time travel.

Tell me what you think. But we may have to move our discussion to another thread--as some of the folks here in science believe TT to be psuedo science. Which I fully understand. I used to think that way too!

Let me know.

Did scientists from Project Swiss achieve time travel into the past or future?

The past. It is the only possible method of TT so far. We have pics! But again. you really should check out the thread link I gave you. It explains all of it. (I might have to continue discussing this with you via PM's as I was sanctioned from talking about Project Swiss Watch by the Government.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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7/17/2015 5:48:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/16/2015 2:03:11 PM, TyroneShelton wrote:
This involves scenarios of Time Traveling to the past only

I think we need to define a few schools of how Time Travel would happen without paradox.

Here's a few I just thought of:

Evolution of Scenarios: Whenever a situation defies logic, it wouldnt happen. And the reality we live in is the first time where no scenarios defy logic.

Materialism: As a solution to the butterfly effect, the person who killed his father would change as the continuum updates itself, he wouldnt be able to kill the father.

Blind Materialism: The TT event would have already happened, and only loops can happen. (A loop being where if I killed my current friend by TT from the future, somehow that event would have to play out in the future)

Alternate realities: You can go to the past, but you would create a different reality by changing the past. When you go back to the current time, nothing would have happened.

My way of thinking about Time Travel, is a quantum approach. While you may or may not beleive me, I conceived of this approach about a month before some scientists published a paper on it (I did managed to tell some of my friends before, so got at least some kudos!)

It goes like this:

Particle histories can be described as quantum waveforms, and while specific positions or outcomes cannot predicted, you can quantify the probability of any specific position or outcome occuring.

Now in the scenario of time travel, the particles in your body, operate in this way as well. This means that the particles in your body can be defined as a quantum sum of paths waveform in it's own right.

What you find, is that if you look at this waveform and try and describe the probability of a particular path that causes a paradox, you will always get a probability of 0.

Not only does this eliminate the possibility of paradoxes, it also tells you exactly what would happen if you attempted to cause one: ANY particular path with P > 0.

You would step out of the time machine on the way to kill your grandfather, kill him, then later find out it was someone else; you may trip when stepping out of the machine, crack your head and die of a brain haemmorhage, or all the atoms of air would simultaneously move away from your head and you would suffocate. All these quantum paths have a P > 0 and would occur before a paradox could be caused.

Interestingly, this leads me to an interesting theoretical concept for an energy generator. Create a rail gun that is trained through some sort of wormhole at itself before it fired. Unfortunately, the mundane aspects would most likely occur, random break downs, and outages or miscalibrated coordinates that would stop it working ever; but in this case there is a P > 0 chance of all the mass in the pelet spontaneously decaying into energy that you could then harness. Unfortunatley, you could never make the chances of that happening appreciably likely compared to any of the mundane possibilities; but it's a neat idea.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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7/17/2015 7:12:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/16/2015 2:03:11 PM, TyroneShelton wrote:
This involves scenarios of Time Traveling to the past only

I think we need to define a few schools of how Time Travel would happen without paradox.

Here's a few I just thought of:

Evolution of Scenarios: Whenever a situation defies logic, it wouldnt happen. And the reality we live in is the first time where no scenarios defy logic.

Materialism: As a solution to the butterfly effect, the person who killed his father would change as the continuum updates itself, he wouldnt be able to kill the father.

Blind Materialism: The TT event would have already happened, and only loops can happen. (A loop being where if I killed my current friend by TT from the future, somehow that event would have to play out in the future)

Alternate realities: You can go to the past, but you would create a different reality by changing the past. When you go back to the current time, nothing would have happened.

If it were possible to go back in time, and the Time Traveler (TT) killed his dad, then time is like a wave function.

All events strung from killing the father would be along a probability curve. In some cases the TT travels back kills dad and is still born. Some cases the TT doesn't travel back cause his dad died.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/17/2015 8:52:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 5:48:17 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 7/16/2015 2:03:11 PM, TyroneShelton wrote:
This involves scenarios of Time Traveling to the past only

I think we need to define a few schools of how Time Travel would happen without paradox.

Here's a few I just thought of:

Evolution of Scenarios: Whenever a situation defies logic, it wouldnt happen. And the reality we live in is the first time where no scenarios defy logic.

Materialism: As a solution to the butterfly effect, the person who killed his father would change as the continuum updates itself, he wouldnt be able to kill the father.

Blind Materialism: The TT event would have already happened, and only loops can happen. (A loop being where if I killed my current friend by TT from the future, somehow that event would have to play out in the future)

Alternate realities: You can go to the past, but you would create a different reality by changing the past. When you go back to the current time, nothing would have happened.

My way of thinking about Time Travel, is a quantum approach. While you may or may not beleive me, I conceived of this approach about a month before some scientists published a paper on it (I did managed to tell some of my friends before, so got at least some kudos!)

It goes like this:

Particle histories can be described as quantum waveforms, and while specific positions or outcomes cannot predicted, you can quantify the probability of any specific position or outcome occuring.

Now in the scenario of time travel, the particles in your body, operate in this way as well. This means that the particles in your body can be defined as a quantum sum of paths waveform in it's own right.

What you find, is that if you look at this waveform and try and describe the probability of a particular path that causes a paradox, you will always get a probability of 0.

Not only does this eliminate the possibility of paradoxes, it also tells you exactly what would happen if you attempted to cause one: ANY particular path with P > 0.

You would step out of the time machine on the way to kill your grandfather, kill him, then later find out it was someone else; you may trip when stepping out of the machine, crack your head and die of a brain haemmorhage, or all the atoms of air would simultaneously move away from your head and you would suffocate. All these quantum paths have a P > 0 and would occur before a paradox could be caused.

Interestingly, this leads me to an interesting theoretical concept for an energy generator. Create a rail gun that is trained through some sort of wormhole at itself before it fired. Unfortunately, the mundane aspects would most likely occur, random break downs, and outages or miscalibrated coordinates that would stop it working ever; but in this case there is a P > 0 chance of all the mass in the pelet spontaneously decaying into energy that you could then harness. Unfortunatley, you could never make the chances of that happening appreciably likely compared to any of the mundane possibilities; but it's a neat idea.

You lost me at "particle histories." Please explain. I have never heard that term mentioned in Quantum Mechanics.

Also..link please for the published paper on Time Travel that supposedly mirrors your own ideas?

Thanks.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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7/18/2015 6:28:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 4:51:17 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/17/2015 4:45:53 PM, Such wrote:
At 7/17/2015 1:42:19 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/17/2015 11:36:02 AM, TyroneShelton wrote:
Physics doesnt say it is impossible. Just very hard to do. But it could be that you need to build a receiver so that people can travel back from the future.

Did you read the thread I directed you to?

In it you will find the methods which the folks at Project Swiss Watch achieved time travel.

Tell me what you think. But we may have to move our discussion to another thread--as some of the folks here in science believe TT to be psuedo science. Which I fully understand. I used to think that way too!

Let me know.

Did scientists from Project Swiss achieve time travel into the past or future?


The past. It is the only possible method of TT so far. We have pics! But again. you really should check out the thread link I gave you. It explains all of it. (I might have to continue discussing this with you via PM's as I was sanctioned from talking about Project Swiss Watch by the Government.

HEY...we warned you about revealing our secrets, keep this up and we're going to go back in time to when you were a little kid and reprogram you to think you are Liza Minnelli.

Do you really want to spend the last ten years working in a show bar as a female impersonator?

Bruce Jenner didn't listen and you see what we did to him....beware loud mouth..
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/18/2015 12:29:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 6:28:53 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 7/17/2015 4:51:17 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/17/2015 4:45:53 PM, Such wrote:
At 7/17/2015 1:42:19 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/17/2015 11:36:02 AM, TyroneShelton wrote:
Physics doesnt say it is impossible. Just very hard to do. But it could be that you need to build a receiver so that people can travel back from the future.

Did you read the thread I directed you to?

In it you will find the methods which the folks at Project Swiss Watch achieved time travel.

Tell me what you think. But we may have to move our discussion to another thread--as some of the folks here in science believe TT to be psuedo science. Which I fully understand. I used to think that way too!

Let me know.

Did scientists from Project Swiss achieve time travel into the past or future?


The past. It is the only possible method of TT so far. We have pics! But again. you really should check out the thread link I gave you. It explains all of it. (I might have to continue discussing this with you via PM's as I was sanctioned from talking about Project Swiss Watch by the Government.

HEY...we warned you about revealing our secrets, keep this up and we're going to go back in time to when you were a little kid and reprogram you to think you are Liza Minnelli.

Do you really want to spend the last ten years working in a show bar as a female impersonator?

Bruce Jenner didn't listen and you see what we did to him....beware loud mouth..

Serato? Is that you?

Thought you were banned? Oh--you are. Just a matter of time till they discover your multiple account.

Reported.

Bye Bye now.

Again.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Such
Posts: 1,110
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7/18/2015 1:49:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 12:29:26 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/18/2015 6:28:53 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 7/17/2015 4:51:17 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/17/2015 4:45:53 PM, Such wrote:
At 7/17/2015 1:42:19 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/17/2015 11:36:02 AM, TyroneShelton wrote:
Physics doesnt say it is impossible. Just very hard to do. But it could be that you need to build a receiver so that people can travel back from the future.

Did you read the thread I directed you to?

In it you will find the methods which the folks at Project Swiss Watch achieved time travel.

Tell me what you think. But we may have to move our discussion to another thread--as some of the folks here in science believe TT to be psuedo science. Which I fully understand. I used to think that way too!

Let me know.

Did scientists from Project Swiss achieve time travel into the past or future?


The past. It is the only possible method of TT so far. We have pics! But again. you really should check out the thread link I gave you. It explains all of it. (I might have to continue discussing this with you via PM's as I was sanctioned from talking about Project Swiss Watch by the Government.

HEY...we warned you about revealing our secrets, keep this up and we're going to go back in time to when you were a little kid and reprogram you to think you are Liza Minnelli.

Do you really want to spend the last ten years working in a show bar as a female impersonator?

Bruce Jenner didn't listen and you see what we did to him....beware loud mouth..

Serato? Is that you?

Thought you were banned? Oh--you are. Just a matter of time till they discover your multiple account.

Reported.

Bye Bye now.

Again.

Sidewalker has been here much longer than you...?
Such
Posts: 1,110
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7/18/2015 2:09:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 4:51:17 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/17/2015 4:45:53 PM, Such wrote:
At 7/17/2015 1:42:19 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/17/2015 11:36:02 AM, TyroneShelton wrote:
Physics doesnt say it is impossible. Just very hard to do. But it could be that you need to build a receiver so that people can travel back from the future.

Did you read the thread I directed you to?

In it you will find the methods which the folks at Project Swiss Watch achieved time travel.

Tell me what you think. But we may have to move our discussion to another thread--as some of the folks here in science believe TT to be psuedo science. Which I fully understand. I used to think that way too!

Let me know.

Did scientists from Project Swiss achieve time travel into the past or future?


The past. It is the only possible method of TT so far. We have pics! But again. you really should check out the thread link I gave you. It explains all of it. (I might have to continue discussing this with you via PM's as I was sanctioned from talking about Project Swiss Watch by the Government.

So, your post wasn't even specious -- it sounded outright outlandish.

It starts with your claim that time travel into the past is the only possible "method" of time travel. This is a negative. Time travel into the future is not only possible, it has happened -- only, to a very minute degree. It's inherent in the tenets of macrophysics and quantum physics alike. Relativity determines that one can "slow down" as one approaches c, effectively traversing time in relation to everyone moving at a much slower velocity (which is almost everything else). Superposition determines that a particle can appear (or even be) two places at the same time -- effectively moving through space without consuming time, thus, in a sense, time traveling while moving from one place to the other.

It is time travel into the past that seems so unlikely, due to the very same physics.

But, I went to your thread, and... sigh. I mean, srsly, man. It was just some vague anecdote and a link to a google images search of the same photos you can find in photo compilations from one of the sillier regions of youtube.

You can't simultaneously claim something is some huge, conspiratorial secret and link to a breadth of "evidence" on the public domain. But, your credibility had passed long before that, when you went on about aliens and Roswell and reverse engineering. Silliness.

I maintain that, whereas one might be able to figure out shortcuts to go from flour, eggs, sugar, milk, butter and baking soda to a bun, a done bun can't be undone.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/18/2015 2:51:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 1:49:35 PM, Such wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:29:26 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/18/2015 6:28:53 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 7/17/2015 4:51:17 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/17/2015 4:45:53 PM, Such wrote:
At 7/17/2015 1:42:19 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/17/2015 11:36:02 AM, TyroneShelton wrote:
Physics doesnt say it is impossible. Just very hard to do. But it could be that you need to build a receiver so that people can travel back from the future.

Did you read the thread I directed you to?

In it you will find the methods which the folks at Project Swiss Watch achieved time travel.

Tell me what you think. But we may have to move our discussion to another thread--as some of the folks here in science believe TT to be psuedo science. Which I fully understand. I used to think that way too!

Let me know.

Did scientists from Project Swiss achieve time travel into the past or future?


The past. It is the only possible method of TT so far. We have pics! But again. you really should check out the thread link I gave you. It explains all of it. (I might have to continue discussing this with you via PM's as I was sanctioned from talking about Project Swiss Watch by the Government.

HEY...we warned you about revealing our secrets, keep this up and we're going to go back in time to when you were a little kid and reprogram you to think you are Liza Minnelli.

Do you really want to spend the last ten years working in a show bar as a female impersonator?

Bruce Jenner didn't listen and you see what we did to him....beware loud mouth..

Serato? Is that you?

Thought you were banned? Oh--you are. Just a matter of time till they discover your multiple account.

Reported.

Bye Bye now.

Again.

Sidewalker has been here much longer than you...?

Yeah.

I may be wrong. But his off-the-wall metapors and similes were the exact type that Serato used to use. LOL. It just reminded me of him, is all.

If I am wrong I apologize and stand humbly corrected!
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Sidewalker
Posts: 3,713
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7/18/2015 9:30:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 1:49:35 PM, Such wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:29:26 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/18/2015 6:28:53 AM, Sidewalker wrote:
At 7/17/2015 4:51:17 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/17/2015 4:45:53 PM, Such wrote:
At 7/17/2015 1:42:19 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/17/2015 11:36:02 AM, TyroneShelton wrote:
Physics doesnt say it is impossible. Just very hard to do. But it could be that you need to build a receiver so that people can travel back from the future.

Did you read the thread I directed you to?

In it you will find the methods which the folks at Project Swiss Watch achieved time travel.

Tell me what you think. But we may have to move our discussion to another thread--as some of the folks here in science believe TT to be psuedo science. Which I fully understand. I used to think that way too!

Let me know.

Did scientists from Project Swiss achieve time travel into the past or future?


The past. It is the only possible method of TT so far. We have pics! But again. you really should check out the thread link I gave you. It explains all of it. (I might have to continue discussing this with you via PM's as I was sanctioned from talking about Project Swiss Watch by the Government.

HEY...we warned you about revealing our secrets, keep this up and we're going to go back in time to when you were a little kid and reprogram you to think you are Liza Minnelli.

Do you really want to spend the last ten years working in a show bar as a female impersonator?

Bruce Jenner didn't listen and you see what we did to him....beware loud mouth..

Serato? Is that you?

Thought you were banned? Oh--you are. Just a matter of time till they discover your multiple account.

Reported.

Bye Bye now.

Again.

Sidewalker has been here much longer than you...?

Good point, but then again, maybe I just time traveled back to before he got here.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,598
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7/19/2015 1:44:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 11:36:02 AM, TyroneShelton wrote:
Physics doesnt say it is impossible.

Yes, the physics of time travel are indeed impossible.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
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Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth