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Theistic Evolution

Thorae
Posts: 17
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8/22/2010 1:41:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Why is it that theists deny the most undeniable scientific observation when there is a clear alternative to this? Theistic evolution is the belief that there is a God and he either guides evolution or just lets it happen.
"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind."
-Albert Einstein
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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8/22/2010 1:43:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
If God guides evolution it's not survival of the fittest. Takes away an important part of evolution.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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8/22/2010 1:44:36 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Umm, I think you'll find the theists on this site are a cut above what you're used to...

Unless you're talking to GodSands or DATCMOTO. They are both borderline retarded. Do not engage them in any meaningful discussion of any kind under any circumstances.
Thorae
Posts: 17
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8/22/2010 1:45:34 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I am new here, but the only arguments I've seen about God have been about evolution.
"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind."
-Albert Einstein
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/22/2010 1:46:32 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 1:43:36 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
If God guides evolution it's not survival of the fittest. Takes away an important part of evolution.

Hmm not really, if God simply confined himself to causing/choosing mutations natural selection would still be in effect. Even if God created Adam and Eve there would still be natural selection.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/22/2010 1:47:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 1:41:18 PM, Thorae wrote:
Why is it that theists deny the most undeniable scientific observation when there is a clear alternative to this? Theistic evolution is the belief that there is a God and he either guides evolution or just lets it happen.

What is the evidence that evolution is guided by God?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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8/22/2010 1:48:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 1:46:32 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:43:36 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
If God guides evolution it's not survival of the fittest. Takes away an important part of evolution.

Hmm not really, if God simply confined himself to causing/choosing mutations natural selection would still be in effect. Even if God created Adam and Eve there would still be natural selection.

But that would just be "microevolution" and GodSands would have a field day.
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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8/22/2010 1:50:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 1:46:32 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:43:36 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
If God guides evolution it's not survival of the fittest. Takes away an important part of evolution.

Hmm not really, if God simply confined himself to causing/choosing mutations natural selection would still be in effect. Even if God created Adam and Eve there would still be natural selection.

God is giving advantage to certain animals through selective mutations. In the same sense the government interfering in the economy isn't a free economy.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
Thorae
Posts: 17
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8/22/2010 1:51:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm actually not trying to provide evidence for it. I don't believe God interferes with evolution so I need not prove anything.
"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind."
-Albert Einstein
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/22/2010 1:51:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 1:46:32 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:43:36 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
If God guides evolution it's not survival of the fittest. Takes away an important part of evolution.

Hmm not really, if God simply confined himself to causing/choosing mutations natural selection would still be in effect. Even if God created Adam and Eve there would still be natural selection.

Nope. God guiding natural selection is a contradiction. It wouldn't be natural selection if it had anything to do with God and the supernatural.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Thorae
Posts: 17
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8/22/2010 1:53:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I'm not sure, but I think the belief is that God used evolution to make humans, and then stopped from that.

I may have worded it badly in the OP.
"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind."
-Albert Einstein
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/22/2010 1:54:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 1:48:00 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:46:32 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:43:36 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
If God guides evolution it's not survival of the fittest. Takes away an important part of evolution.

Hmm not really, if God simply confined himself to causing/choosing mutations natural selection would still be in effect. Even if God created Adam and Eve there would still be natural selection.

But that would just be "microevolution" and GodSands would have a field day.

Macroevolution is lots of microevolution.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
J.Kenyon
Posts: 4,194
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8/22/2010 1:54:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 1:54:07 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Macroevolution is lots of microevolution.

Try explaining that to GodSands.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/22/2010 1:55:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 1:50:43 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:46:32 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:43:36 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
If God guides evolution it's not survival of the fittest. Takes away an important part of evolution.

Hmm not really, if God simply confined himself to causing/choosing mutations natural selection would still be in effect. Even if God created Adam and Eve there would still be natural selection.

God is giving advantage to certain animals through selective mutations. In the same sense the government interfering in the economy isn't a free economy.

How is that a rebuttal?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/22/2010 1:55:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 1:51:40 PM, Thorae wrote:
I'm actually not trying to provide evidence for it. I don't believe God interferes with evolution so I need not prove anything.

Then what is the point of this thread?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Thorae
Posts: 17
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8/22/2010 1:56:54 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
To tell them they don't have to be ignorant and deny evolution.
"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind."
-Albert Einstein
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/22/2010 1:57:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 1:51:55 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:46:32 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:43:36 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
If God guides evolution it's not survival of the fittest. Takes away an important part of evolution.

Hmm not really, if God simply confined himself to causing/choosing mutations natural selection would still be in effect. Even if God created Adam and Eve there would still be natural selection.

Nope. God guiding natural selection is a contradiction. It wouldn't be natural selection if it had anything to do with God and the supernatural.

I never suggested that God guided natural selection.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/22/2010 1:58:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 1:54:56 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:54:07 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Macroevolution is lots of microevolution.

Try explaining that to GodSands.

<sigh>
I have until my eyes bled.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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8/22/2010 4:42:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 1:50:43 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:46:32 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:43:36 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
If God guides evolution it's not survival of the fittest. Takes away an important part of evolution.

Hmm not really, if God simply confined himself to causing/choosing mutations natural selection would still be in effect. Even if God created Adam and Eve there would still be natural selection.

God is giving advantage to certain animals through selective mutations. In the same sense the government interfering in the economy isn't a free economy.

meh. it would still act identically to natural selection as we know it; it would simply be a matter of the source of the mutations being different. the god hypothesis wouldn't invalidate our understanding of it at all, but rather offer a suggestion as to the cause of the seemingly "random" mutations. natural selection acts on genes that exist... somehow. it doesn't really matter where they came from.

not that i am advocating such a thing, just that its perfectly coherent.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/22/2010 4:45:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 4:42:27 PM, belle wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:50:43 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
God is giving advantage to certain animals through selective mutations. In the same sense the government interfering in the economy isn't a free economy.

meh. it would still act identically to natural selection as we know it; it would simply be a matter of the source of the mutations being different. the god hypothesis wouldn't invalidate our understanding of it at all, but rather offer a suggestion as to the cause of the seemingly "random" mutations. natural selection acts on genes that exist... somehow. it doesn't really matter where they came from.

But you can't call it natural selection. It would have to be called divine selection (which negates the very premise of natural selection, and thus the very idea of and basis of evolution theory).
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
I-am-a-panda
Posts: 15,380
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8/22/2010 4:52:12 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 1:55:09 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:50:43 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:46:32 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:43:36 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
If God guides evolution it's not survival of the fittest. Takes away an important part of evolution.

Hmm not really, if God simply confined himself to causing/choosing mutations natural selection would still be in effect. Even if God created Adam and Eve there would still be natural selection.

God is giving advantage to certain animals through selective mutations. In the same sense the government interfering in the economy isn't a free economy.

How is that a rebuttal?

That it isn't true natural selection, as Geo pointed out.
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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8/22/2010 4:54:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 4:45:10 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/22/2010 4:42:27 PM, belle wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:50:43 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
God is giving advantage to certain animals through selective mutations. In the same sense the government interfering in the economy isn't a free economy.

meh. it would still act identically to natural selection as we know it; it would simply be a matter of the source of the mutations being different. the god hypothesis wouldn't invalidate our understanding of it at all, but rather offer a suggestion as to the cause of the seemingly "random" mutations. natural selection acts on genes that exist... somehow. it doesn't really matter where they came from.

But you can't call it natural selection. It would have to be called divine selection (which negates the very premise of natural selection, and thus the very idea of and basis of evolution theory).

no, now you're adding all this metaphysical baggage to it. natural selection is basically the principle that those individuals best adapted to their environments will thrive at the expense of those that are not as well adapted. it really says nothing about HOW or WHY they are adapted. for convenience sake, we refer to selection by humans as "artificial selection" because it is directed by our intelligence, but it is not fundamentally different. we only call it that because we need to distinguish it from the selection that naturally occurs without human intervention. if there were a god directing mutations, then "natural selection" would appear to us exactly as it does now and would act upon the exact same mechanisms... how does that all of a sudden make it not natural selection...? after all god is not technically selecting which traits will be well adapted to the environment, but rather giving individuals traits that he knows will be adapted to the environment (or not in the case of all the species that went extinct :P)

its been said many times on this website that the theory of evolution by natural selection does not explain abiogensis... and it doesn't. because it doesn't attempt to. it doesn't describe where the genetic material comes from or why it changes. it merely describes the results of those changes over time. god intervening and causing mutations wouldn't change the mechanisms of natural selection at all, though it may well effect the historical course of evolution. there would be no need to call it anything else...
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
jat93
Posts: 1,440
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8/22/2010 9:26:16 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Hmmm, natural selection from a supernatural creator? in all honesty, i don't know, but i certainly don't like it within the context of religion (as in, not just from a deistic point of view.) first of all, it's hard to accept the supposed "compatibility" of evolution and religion when not so long ago the former was adamantly rejected by the latter. (in general - though i do know of certain very old jewish commentators who have alluded to it in their works, one person's opinion says nothing of the religion as a whole...) the way i see it, evolution, being a rather credible theory, forced religion into a corner - and religion had no choice but to try and reconcile the two. but now it seems as if everywhere you look there are books proposing the discovery of "harmony between modern science and the bible" etc.

also, theistic evolution + the O3 deity (omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent) = problematic... assuming god used billions of animals/pre-humans to die for his creation threatens his "perfect goodness" and his "complete power."

in short, i'm not a big fan. deistic evolution maybe?
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/22/2010 9:44:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
jat brings up a good point. Why would an omnibenevolent God make entire species go extinct for the sake of evolution.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/23/2010 3:26:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 4:45:10 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/22/2010 4:42:27 PM, belle wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:50:43 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
God is giving advantage to certain animals through selective mutations. In the same sense the government interfering in the economy isn't a free economy.

meh. it would still act identically to natural selection as we know it; it would simply be a matter of the source of the mutations being different. the god hypothesis wouldn't invalidate our understanding of it at all, but rather offer a suggestion as to the cause of the seemingly "random" mutations. natural selection acts on genes that exist... somehow. it doesn't really matter where they came from.

But you can't call it natural selection. It would have to be called divine selection (which negates the very premise of natural selection, and thus the very idea of and basis of evolution theory).

Do you not understand the basic theory of evolution?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/23/2010 3:28:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 4:52:12 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:55:09 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:50:43 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:46:32 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 8/22/2010 1:43:36 PM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
If God guides evolution it's not survival of the fittest. Takes away an important part of evolution.

Hmm not really, if God simply confined himself to causing/choosing mutations natural selection would still be in effect. Even if God created Adam and Eve there would still be natural selection.

God is giving advantage to certain animals through selective mutations. In the same sense the government interfering in the economy isn't a free economy.

How is that a rebuttal?

That it isn't true natural selection, as Geo pointed out.

No one has indicated how it would not be true natural selection.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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8/23/2010 3:29:32 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/22/2010 9:44:24 PM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
jat brings up a good point. Why would an omnibenevolent God make entire species go extinct for the sake of evolution.

Omnibenevolent yet not omnipotent?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
mattrodstrom
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8/23/2010 11:23:41 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think theistic evolution is consistent... and makes sense if you believe in God.

God sets the rules for how the universe operates.

the rules Dictate which mutations will happen.

mutations SEEM random to us... but they're not.

There are reasons why those mutations occur (radiation.. whatever)... reasons which have to do with the nature of the universe.

so... God doesn't have to Magically mutate things in order to Ultimately be behind it...

He just had to have created the universe in such a manner that such things would come about... Given the nature of things.

He would KNOW that creating the universe in that way would cause People and animals to evolve exactly as they have...

Even if he wasn't Magically involved, every step of the way, in the seemingly "random" Mutations themselves.

In laying and continually supporting the framework for those things, he would consciously be Necessarily causing them to come into existence exactly as they do.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."