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morphogenic fields and bird flocks

janesix
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7/27/2015 1:03:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
http://earthsky.org...

"We"ve all seen flocks of birds wheeling and swooping in unison, as if choreographed. How do they do this? Zoologists say they aren"t simply following a leader, or their neighbors. If they were, the reaction time of each bird would need to be very fast " faster than birds actually do react, according to scientists who have studied the reaction times of individual birds in laboratory settings. "

The scientists think the birds are anticipating the movements of their neighbors, but that still doesn't explain the faster reaction time.

I think this is a perfect example of a morphogenic field in action.
JMcKinley
Posts: 314
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7/27/2015 2:35:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Have you got any evidence to support that hypothesis? The behavior certainly is similar or at least analogous to what you get in cellular morphogenic fields. But I have my doubts that the mechanisms are related.

Schools of fish also act this way. I wonder if it is the same mechanism working in both birds and fish. Research in this area would be very interesting
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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7/27/2015 4:03:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 1:03:58 PM, janesix wrote:
http://earthsky.org...

"We"ve all seen flocks of birds wheeling and swooping in unison, as if choreographed. How do they do this? Zoologists say they aren"t simply following a leader, or their neighbors. If they were, the reaction time of each bird would need to be very fast " faster than birds actually do react, according to scientists who have studied the reaction times of individual birds in laboratory settings. "

The scientists think the birds are anticipating the movements of their neighbors, but that still doesn't explain the faster reaction time.

I think this is a perfect example of a morphogenic field in action.

oh yeah!! I read a book about that a couple of years ago. I forget the author name, but he was a biologist. Sheldon? Mandrake? sorry, cant remember. but it was fascinating. he also talked about nature having some kind of memory that it uses to teach itself. and he talked about birds in England who learned how to take the caps off milk bottles from other birds they never came in contact with! like from a field of learning or some such. let me know who that was, Id like to read more from him. Thanks.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
janesix
Posts: 3,437
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7/27/2015 4:20:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 4:03:39 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/27/2015 1:03:58 PM, janesix wrote:
http://earthsky.org...

"We"ve all seen flocks of birds wheeling and swooping in unison, as if choreographed. How do they do this? Zoologists say they aren"t simply following a leader, or their neighbors. If they were, the reaction time of each bird would need to be very fast " faster than birds actually do react, according to scientists who have studied the reaction times of individual birds in laboratory settings. "

The scientists think the birds are anticipating the movements of their neighbors, but that still doesn't explain the faster reaction time.

I think this is a perfect example of a morphogenic field in action.

oh yeah!! I read a book about that a couple of years ago. I forget the author name, but he was a biologist. Sheldon? Mandrake? sorry, cant remember. but it was fascinating. he also talked about nature having some kind of memory that it uses to teach itself. and he talked about birds in England who learned how to take the caps off milk bottles from other birds they never came in contact with! like from a field of learning or some such. let me know who that was, Id like to read more from him. Thanks.

Rupert Sheldrake
janesix
Posts: 3,437
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7/27/2015 4:23:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 2:35:02 PM, JMcKinley wrote:
Have you got any evidence to support that hypothesis? The behavior certainly is similar or at least analogous to what you get in cellular morphogenic fields. But I have my doubts that the mechanisms are related.

Schools of fish also act this way. I wonder if it is the same mechanism working in both birds and fish. Research in this area would be very interesting

Unfortunately, no evidence.

I have to go through tons of nonsense just to find a few interesting clues. I wish more scientists would study this idea.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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7/27/2015 6:40:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 1:03:58 PM, janesix wrote:
http://earthsky.org...

"We"ve all seen flocks of birds wheeling and swooping in unison, as if choreographed. How do they do this? Zoologists say they aren"t simply following a leader, or their neighbors. If they were, the reaction time of each bird would need to be very fast " faster than birds actually do react, according to scientists who have studied the reaction times of individual birds in laboratory settings. "

The scientists think the birds are anticipating the movements of their neighbors, but that still doesn't explain the faster reaction time.

I think this is a perfect example of a morphogenic field in action.

Scientist told me fish do this to look like a bigger fish. And that it was evolution.

Why do birds do this?
Floid
Posts: 751
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7/27/2015 7:30:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 6:40:50 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/27/2015 1:03:58 PM, janesix wrote:
The scientists think the birds are anticipating the movements of their neighbors, but that still doesn't explain the faster reaction time.

I think this is a perfect example of a morphogenic field in action.

Scientist told me fish do this to look like a bigger fish. And that it was evolution.

Why do birds do this?

Birds do it because of:

1.) Aerodynamic advantages (reduced wind resistance)

2.) The reason many animals congregate: increased ability to detects predators, increased protection from predators, increased chance to identify food
Floid
Posts: 751
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7/27/2015 7:35:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 1:03:58 PM, janesix wrote:
http://earthsky.org...

"We"ve all seen flocks of birds wheeling and swooping in unison, as if choreographed. How do they do this? Zoologists say they aren"t simply following a leader, or their neighbors. If they were, the reaction time of each bird would need to be very fast " faster than birds actually do react, according to scientists who have studied the reaction times of individual birds in laboratory settings. "

The scientists think the birds are anticipating the movements of their neighbors, but that still doesn't explain the faster reaction time.

I think this is a perfect example of a morphogenic field in action.

How do you justify dismissing decades of research by different scientist using different methods such as slow motion cameras, computer simulation, and replication in drone systems? Why should we prefer your speculation versus empirical research?
janesix
Posts: 3,437
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7/27/2015 8:51:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 7:35:45 PM, Floid wrote:
At 7/27/2015 1:03:58 PM, janesix wrote:
http://earthsky.org...

"We"ve all seen flocks of birds wheeling and swooping in unison, as if choreographed. How do they do this? Zoologists say they aren"t simply following a leader, or their neighbors. If they were, the reaction time of each bird would need to be very fast " faster than birds actually do react, according to scientists who have studied the reaction times of individual birds in laboratory settings. "

The scientists think the birds are anticipating the movements of their neighbors, but that still doesn't explain the faster reaction time.

I think this is a perfect example of a morphogenic field in action.

How do you justify dismissing decades of research by different scientist using different methods such as slow motion cameras, computer simulation, and replication in drone systems? Why should we prefer your speculation versus empirical research?

Decades of research and they still don't know how it happens.
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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7/27/2015 8:54:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 7:35:45 PM, Floid wrote:
At 7/27/2015 1:03:58 PM, janesix wrote:
http://earthsky.org...

"We"ve all seen flocks of birds wheeling and swooping in unison, as if choreographed. How do they do this? Zoologists say they aren"t simply following a leader, or their neighbors. If they were, the reaction time of each bird would need to be very fast " faster than birds actually do react, according to scientists who have studied the reaction times of individual birds in laboratory settings. "

The scientists think the birds are anticipating the movements of their neighbors, but that still doesn't explain the faster reaction time.

I think this is a perfect example of a morphogenic field in action.

How do you justify dismissing decades of research by different scientist using different methods such as slow motion cameras, computer simulation, and replication in drone systems? Why should we prefer your speculation versus empirical research?

But if I recall from that book By Seldrake, he claims that slow-mo and stop action videos have shown that the birds dont follow on cue, but that it is a simultaneous act, as if they were of the same mind, or caught in a field of some sort. I need to read more on this stuff. A guy that I box with teaches Biology as UC-Santa Cruz. Im going to get his take on this. Ill let you all know.
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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7/27/2015 10:29:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 7:30:57 PM, Floid wrote:
At 7/27/2015 6:40:50 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/27/2015 1:03:58 PM, janesix wrote:
The scientists think the birds are anticipating the movements of their neighbors, but that still doesn't explain the faster reaction time.

I think this is a perfect example of a morphogenic field in action.

Scientist told me fish do this to look like a bigger fish. And that it was evolution.

Why do birds do this?

Birds do it because of:

1.) Aerodynamic advantages (reduced wind resistance)

I doubt that. I'm pretty sure some of those maneuvers increased drag and strain.


2.) The reason many animals congregate: increased ability to detects predators, increased protection from predators, increased chance to identify food

I'm pretty sure they can do that with out being in a murmuration.
JMcKinley
Posts: 314
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7/28/2015 5:49:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 8:51:29 PM, janesix wrote:
At 7/27/2015 7:35:45 PM, Floid wrote:
At 7/27/2015 1:03:58 PM, janesix wrote:
http://earthsky.org...

"We"ve all seen flocks of birds wheeling and swooping in unison, as if choreographed. How do they do this? Zoologists say they aren"t simply following a leader, or their neighbors. If they were, the reaction time of each bird would need to be very fast " faster than birds actually do react, according to scientists who have studied the reaction times of individual birds in laboratory settings. "

The scientists think the birds are anticipating the movements of their neighbors, but that still doesn't explain the faster reaction time.

I think this is a perfect example of a morphogenic field in action.

How do you justify dismissing decades of research by different scientist using different methods such as slow motion cameras, computer simulation, and replication in drone systems? Why should we prefer your speculation versus empirical research?

Decades of research and they still don't know how it happens.

But that has no bearing on the validity of your claim.... just in case you were implying that it did. I'm not sure if you were or not.
JMcKinley
Posts: 314
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7/28/2015 6:02:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 10:29:04 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/27/2015 7:30:57 PM, Floid wrote:
At 7/27/2015 6:40:50 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/27/2015 1:03:58 PM, janesix wrote:
The scientists think the birds are anticipating the movements of their neighbors, but that still doesn't explain the faster reaction time.

I think this is a perfect example of a morphogenic field in action.

Scientist told me fish do this to look like a bigger fish. And that it was evolution.

Why do birds do this?

Birds do it because of:

1.) Aerodynamic advantages (reduced wind resistance)

I doubt that. I'm pretty sure some of those maneuvers increased drag and strain.

That may be true in many cases. But I do know that some bird formations are drag reducing. I agree that many of those formations do not initially appear to have aerodynamic advantages.

2.) The reason many animals congregate: increased ability to detects predators, increased protection from predators, increased chance to identify food

I'm pretty sure they can do that with out being in a murmuration.

That's true. But do the formations make them more efficient at it?
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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7/28/2015 6:24:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 1:03:58 PM, janesix wrote:
http://earthsky.org...

"We"ve all seen flocks of birds wheeling and swooping in unison, as if choreographed. How do they do this? Zoologists say they aren"t simply following a leader, or their neighbors. If they were, the reaction time of each bird would need to be very fast " faster than birds actually do react, according to scientists who have studied the reaction times of individual birds in laboratory settings. "

The scientists think the birds are anticipating the movements of their neighbors, but that still doesn't explain the faster reaction time.

I think this is a perfect example of a morphogenic field in action.

Hey bro!

Remember I told you that I had a sparring partner who comes to my Box here who also teaches Biology next door at UC-Santa Cruz? Well he came in last night and i was asking him about his thoughts on Shelldrake. Uhh...it wasnt too good. LOL. he laughed at the guy and said he is not even in Biology anymore and is more into some Philosophy institute out here in CA somewhere. he said his ideas were once interesting but nobody was ever able to prove them, including Sheldrake. he called his stuff "woo."
That's OK, I still plan to get a book and reas some more about his ideas. if only for fun.

it looks like my friend isnt the only science guy who thinks Sheldrake's ideas are a little whacked.

http://www.quora.com...
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
v3nesl
Posts: 4,458
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7/28/2015 8:03:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 8:54:47 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/27/2015 7:35:45 PM, Floid wrote:
At 7/27/2015 1:03:58 PM, janesix wrote:
http://earthsky.org...

"We"ve all seen flocks of birds wheeling and swooping in unison, as if choreographed. How do they do this? Zoologists say they aren"t simply following a leader, or their neighbors. If they were, the reaction time of each bird would need to be very fast " faster than birds actually do react, according to scientists who have studied the reaction times of individual birds in laboratory settings. "

The scientists think the birds are anticipating the movements of their neighbors, but that still doesn't explain the faster reaction time.

I think this is a perfect example of a morphogenic field in action.

How do you justify dismissing decades of research by different scientist using different methods such as slow motion cameras, computer simulation, and replication in drone systems? Why should we prefer your speculation versus empirical research?

But if I recall from that book By Seldrake, he claims that slow-mo and stop action videos have shown that the birds dont follow on cue, but that it is a simultaneous act, as if they were of the same mind,

Yeah, so what about the simple explanation that they all have similar brains and thus react similarly to the same stimuli? The one article seemed to be anthropomorphizing it all - "anticipating the movements of other birds" and that sort of thing. Nah. Why do a pile of iron fillings all stand up at once when a magnetic field is applied? There's no thought involved, just simultaneous reaction to the same stimuli. I know there's great sophistication in migratory behavior, but in this case a simpler explanation may be in order.
This space for rent.
August_Burns_Red
Posts: 1,253
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7/28/2015 9:21:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/28/2015 8:03:25 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 7/27/2015 8:54:47 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/27/2015 7:35:45 PM, Floid wrote:
At 7/27/2015 1:03:58 PM, janesix wrote:
http://earthsky.org...

"We"ve all seen flocks of birds wheeling and swooping in unison, as if choreographed. How do they do this? Zoologists say they aren"t simply following a leader, or their neighbors. If they were, the reaction time of each bird would need to be very fast " faster than birds actually do react, according to scientists who have studied the reaction times of individual birds in laboratory settings. "

The scientists think the birds are anticipating the movements of their neighbors, but that still doesn't explain the faster reaction time.

I think this is a perfect example of a morphogenic field in action.

How do you justify dismissing decades of research by different scientist using different methods such as slow motion cameras, computer simulation, and replication in drone systems? Why should we prefer your speculation versus empirical research?

But if I recall from that book By Seldrake, he claims that slow-mo and stop action videos have shown that the birds dont follow on cue, but that it is a simultaneous act, as if they were of the same mind,

Yeah, so what about the simple explanation that they all have similar brains and thus react similarly to the same stimuli? The one article seemed to be anthropomorphizing it all - "anticipating the movements of other birds" and that sort of thing. Nah. Why do a pile of iron fillings all stand up at once when a magnetic field is applied? There's no thought involved, just simultaneous reaction to the same stimuli. I know there's great sophistication in migratory behavior, but in this case a simpler explanation may be in order.

You screwed up your metaphor that you meant to be used as dis-proof of Sheldrake! LOL.

With the iron filings thing. Exactly!! They do so becasue of a magnetic FIELD! And a FIELD of Morphic Resonance is exactly what Sheldrake proposes. The filings are acted UPON!! Not individually-minded. He would thank you for helping to make his point! LOL
Tomorrow's forecast: God reigns and the Son shines!
Floid
Posts: 751
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7/28/2015 9:33:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/27/2015 10:29:04 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/27/2015 7:30:57 PM, Floid wrote:
Birds do it because of:

1.) Aerodynamic advantages (reduced wind resistance)

I doubt that. I'm pretty sure some of those maneuvers increased drag and strain.

You can doubt whatever you want. However typing "drag reduction from formation flight" would supply you with dozens of peer reviewed scientific papers that quantify the drag reduction for various flying configurations.

2.) The reason many animals congregate: increased ability to detects predators, increased protection from predators, increased chance to identify food

I'm pretty sure they can do that with out being in a murmuration.

I would think this would be self evident, but you can do a lot of things in a lot of different ways. Saying that you can achieve goal (safety) through method B (whatever you are pretty sure about) says nothing about whether method A (birds flocking) is done in part to achieve safety in numbers.

For example, I am pretty sure a some insects could survive without camouflage. But that doesn't mean camouflage is not an adaptation that increases survival. I am guessing this is falling on deaf ears but I thought I would at least try...
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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7/28/2015 11:30:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/28/2015 9:33:28 PM, Floid wrote:
At 7/27/2015 10:29:04 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 7/27/2015 7:30:57 PM, Floid wrote:
Birds do it because of:

1.) Aerodynamic advantages (reduced wind resistance)

I doubt that. I'm pretty sure some of those maneuvers increased drag and strain.

You can doubt whatever you want. However typing "drag reduction from formation flight" would supply you with dozens of peer reviewed scientific papers that quantify the drag reduction for various flying configurations.

These murmurations are nothing like the V formations of migratory birds. Reduction of drag and efficiency is a great answer to those formations not the ones the OP discusses.

I think this is an attempt by you to confuse the issue.


2.) The reason many animals congregate: increased ability to detects predators, increased protection from predators, increased chance to identify food

I'm pretty sure they can do that with out being in a murmuration.

I would think this would be self evident, but you can do a lot of things in a lot of different ways. Saying that you can achieve goal (safety) through method B (whatever you are pretty sure about) says nothing about whether method A (birds flocking) is done in part to achieve safety in numbers.

For example, I am pretty sure a some insects could survive without camouflage. But that doesn't mean camouflage is not an adaptation that increases survival. I am guessing this is falling on deaf ears but I thought I would at least try...

I'm sure there is some advantage to the formation perhaps food or evasion. I could be wrong but I think swarms occur after being startled. So detection of predators is unlikely in my small non biologist opinion.
Floid
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7/29/2015 12:35:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/28/2015 11:30:36 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
I could be wrong but I think swarms occur after being startled. So detection of predators is unlikely in my small non biologist opinion.

Yeah, you could be wrong. You could also posit really stupid ideas that anyone willing to use the search engine of their choice could instantly disprove....

Birds fly in the swarm ahead of time. The really impressive maneuvers may occur based on being startled, but they are already swarming and exhibiting the same basic swarm behaviors before hand.

Anyone who has ever been to the Claypool Reservoir or anywhere near the Mississippi Reservoir during duck migrations has witnessed this first hand. Anyone who has seen swallow swarms up and down the east coast have witnessed this first hand. Heck, anyone who has a basic understanding of the internet and a desire to test their ideas has witnessed these things on youtube.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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7/29/2015 1:18:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/29/2015 12:35:06 AM, Floid wrote:
At 7/28/2015 11:30:36 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
I could be wrong but I think swarms occur after being startled. So detection of predators is unlikely in my small non biologist opinion.

Yeah, you could be wrong. You could also posit really stupid ideas that anyone willing to use the search engine of their choice could instantly disprove....

Birds fly in the swarm ahead of time. The really impressive maneuvers may occur based on being startled, but they are already swarming and exhibiting the same basic swarm behaviors before hand.

Anyone who has ever been to the Claypool Reservoir or anywhere near the Mississippi Reservoir during duck migrations has witnessed this first hand. Anyone who has seen swallow swarms up and down the east coast have witnessed this first hand. Heck, anyone who has a basic understanding of the internet and a desire to test their ideas has witnessed these things on youtube.

I got it. You think they swarm and swirl all over the place as a way to detect predators. And the best way to support that is to demean me.

P.S. Do you concede the murmurations are unlikely to be for less drag like the V and linear formations of migratory birds?
v3nesl
Posts: 4,458
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7/29/2015 1:26:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/28/2015 9:21:28 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/28/2015 8:03:25 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 7/27/2015 8:54:47 PM, August_Burns_Red wrote:
At 7/27/2015 7:35:45 PM, Floid wrote:
At 7/27/2015 1:03:58 PM, janesix wrote:
http://earthsky.org...

"We"ve all seen flocks of birds wheeling and swooping in unison, as if choreographed. How do they do this? Zoologists say they aren"t simply following a leader, or their neighbors. If they were, the reaction time of each bird would need to be very fast " faster than birds actually do react, according to scientists who have studied the reaction times of individual birds in laboratory settings. "

The scientists think the birds are anticipating the movements of their neighbors, but that still doesn't explain the faster reaction time.

I think this is a perfect example of a morphogenic field in action.

How do you justify dismissing decades of research by different scientist using different methods such as slow motion cameras, computer simulation, and replication in drone systems? Why should we prefer your speculation versus empirical research?

But if I recall from that book By Seldrake, he claims that slow-mo and stop action videos have shown that the birds dont follow on cue, but that it is a simultaneous act, as if they were of the same mind,

Yeah, so what about the simple explanation that they all have similar brains and thus react similarly to the same stimuli? The one article seemed to be anthropomorphizing it all - "anticipating the movements of other birds" and that sort of thing. Nah. Why do a pile of iron fillings all stand up at once when a magnetic field is applied? There's no thought involved, just simultaneous reaction to the same stimuli. I know there's great sophistication in migratory behavior, but in this case a simpler explanation may be in order.

You screwed up your metaphor that you meant to be used as dis-proof of Sheldrake! LOL.


lol, no, I never heard of Sheldrake, so I'm neither defending nor debating him.

But I'm surely not agreeing that there's any 'field'. I'm merely pointing out that multiple instances of the same algorithm will show a patterned response to the same stimuli.

Just one factor to figure into trying to understand the behavior. The bird brains are also responding to each other, and so you get wave effects along with the simultaneous behavior.
This space for rent.