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# Where and when...

 Posts: 366 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/27/2015 5:54:54 PMPosted: 2 years agoHere's a question. Time and space are part of the structure of the universe. This raises a question. If there was no time or space before the Big Bang, then where and when did it happen?
 Posts: 751 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/27/2015 7:37:27 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 7/27/2015 5:54:54 PM, B0HICA wrote:Here's a question. Time and space are part of the structure of the universe. This raises a question. If there was no time or space before the Big Bang, then where and when did it happen?In 4 dimensions we would say at point (0, 0, 0, 0).
 Posts: 366 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/27/2015 10:58:17 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 7/27/2015 7:37:27 PM, Floid wrote:At 7/27/2015 5:54:54 PM, B0HICA wrote:Here's a question. Time and space are part of the structure of the universe. This raises a question. If there was no time or space before the Big Bang, then where and when did it happen?In 4 dimensions we would say at point (0, 0, 0, 0).But there were no dimensions. Time and space didn't exist before the big bang. So how can something happen when it doesn't have a time or place to happen in? Also what caused it to happen in the first place? Things don't just happen on their own. Something, or someone, has to CAUSE it to happen.
 Posts: 5,294 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/27/2015 11:13:01 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 7/27/2015 10:58:17 PM, B0HICA wrote:At 7/27/2015 7:37:27 PM, Floid wrote:At 7/27/2015 5:54:54 PM, B0HICA wrote:Here's a question. Time and space are part of the structure of the universe. This raises a question. If there was no time or space before the Big Bang, then where and when did it happen?In 4 dimensions we would say at point (0, 0, 0, 0).But there were no dimensions. Time and space didn't exist before the big bang. So how can something happen when it doesn't have a time or place to happen in?If you assume it was when the universe was created, you have a point. If it wasn't created, the Big Bang is merely a cosmic 4 dimensional equivalent of the North Pole. It is one end point at which time starts, but doesn't have anything "further north"Also what caused it to happen in the first place?Dunno. That's the only honest answer it is possible for anyone to give about the existence of the universeThings don't just happen on their own. Something, or someone, has to CAUSE it to happen.What caused God?
 Posts: 366 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/27/2015 11:23:48 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 7/27/2015 11:13:01 PM, Ramshutu wrote:At 7/27/2015 10:58:17 PM, B0HICA wrote:At 7/27/2015 7:37:27 PM, Floid wrote:At 7/27/2015 5:54:54 PM, B0HICA wrote:Here's a question. Time and space are part of the structure of the universe. This raises a question. If there was no time or space before the Big Bang, then where and when did it happen?In 4 dimensions we would say at point (0, 0, 0, 0).But there were no dimensions. Time and space didn't exist before the big bang. So how can something happen when it doesn't have a time or place to happen in?If you assume it was when the universe was created, you have a point. If it wasn't created, the Big Bang is merely a cosmic 4 dimensional equivalent of the North Pole. It is one end point at which time starts, but doesn't have anything "further north"Also what caused it to happen in the first place?Dunno. That's the only honest answer it is possible for anyone to give about the existence of the universeThings don't just happen on their own. Something, or someone, has to CAUSE it to happen.What caused God?You were actually making sense, even though I don't agree with you, right up to your last comment. God has no beginning. I thought everyone knew this. :)
 Posts: 5,294 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2015 12:37:57 AMPosted: 2 years agoAt 7/27/2015 11:23:48 PM, B0HICA wrote:At 7/27/2015 11:13:01 PM, Ramshutu wrote:At 7/27/2015 10:58:17 PM, B0HICA wrote:At 7/27/2015 7:37:27 PM, Floid wrote:At 7/27/2015 5:54:54 PM, B0HICA wrote:Here's a question. Time and space are part of the structure of the universe. This raises a question. If there was no time or space before the Big Bang, then where and when did it happen?In 4 dimensions we would say at point (0, 0, 0, 0).But there were no dimensions. Time and space didn't exist before the big bang. So how can something happen when it doesn't have a time or place to happen in?If you assume it was when the universe was created, you have a point. If it wasn't created, the Big Bang is merely a cosmic 4 dimensional equivalent of the North Pole. It is one end point at which time starts, but doesn't have anything "further north"Also what caused it to happen in the first place?Dunno. That's the only honest answer it is possible for anyone to give about the existence of the universeThings don't just happen on their own. Something, or someone, has to CAUSE it to happen.What caused God?You were actually making sense, even though I don't agree with you, right up to your last comment. God has no beginning. I thought everyone knew this. :)So because things don't just happen on its own, you have to invent something that happens on its own?
 Posts: 366 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2015 12:45:28 AMPosted: 2 years agoAt 7/28/2015 12:37:57 AM, Ramshutu wrote:At 7/27/2015 11:23:48 PM, B0HICA wrote:At 7/27/2015 11:13:01 PM, Ramshutu wrote:At 7/27/2015 10:58:17 PM, B0HICA wrote:At 7/27/2015 7:37:27 PM, Floid wrote:At 7/27/2015 5:54:54 PM, B0HICA wrote:Here's a question. Time and space are part of the structure of the universe. This raises a question. If there was no time or space before the Big Bang, then where and when did it happen?In 4 dimensions we would say at point (0, 0, 0, 0).But there were no dimensions. Time and space didn't exist before the big bang. So how can something happen when it doesn't have a time or place to happen in?If you assume it was when the universe was created, you have a point. If it wasn't created, the Big Bang is merely a cosmic 4 dimensional equivalent of the North Pole. It is one end point at which time starts, but doesn't have anything "further north"Also what caused it to happen in the first place?Dunno. That's the only honest answer it is possible for anyone to give about the existence of the universeThings don't just happen on their own. Something, or someone, has to CAUSE it to happen.What caused God?You were actually making sense, even though I don't agree with you, right up to your last comment. God has no beginning. I thought everyone knew this. :)So because things don't just happen on its own, you have to invent something that happens on its own?God did not happen. One thing you fail to realize is that science doesn't have an explanation for how or why the universe exists. I believe that the scientific consensus is that the universe had a beginning. They still can't explain the existence of energy. Some of them believe that it always existed. How is this possible? They'll believe that, yet they balk at believing in an eternal being. Why is that?
 Posts: 6,813 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2015 1:10:00 AMPosted: 2 years agoAt 7/27/2015 5:54:54 PM, B0HICA wrote:Here's a question. Time and space are part of the structure of the universe. This raises a question. If there was no time or space before the Big Bang, then where and when did it happen?The Big Bang didn't cause the universe. The universe was in a high-density state, and then expanded -- that's all the Big Bang says. I agree -- causality is incoherent without time -- but that doesn't affect the Big Bang model in any way; it only affects the God hypothesis."Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass http://gotejas.com...
 Posts: 366 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2015 1:16:46 AMPosted: 2 years agoAt 7/28/2015 1:10:00 AM, tejretics wrote:At 7/27/2015 5:54:54 PM, B0HICA wrote:Here's a question. Time and space are part of the structure of the universe. This raises a question. If there was no time or space before the Big Bang, then where and when did it happen?The Big Bang didn't cause the universe. The universe was in a high-density state, and then expanded -- that's all the Big Bang says. I agree -- causality is incoherent without time -- but that doesn't affect the Big Bang model in any way; it only affects the God hypothesis.Haven't you heard? There is no big bang model. At least not one that conforms to our current understanding of physics. When you work your way backwards, to the beginning, the math breaks down. The simple fact is that science doesn't have a clue about how the universe came into being. "God did it" is just as valid a hypothesis as any other.
 Posts: 6,813 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2015 1:21:16 AMPosted: 2 years agoAt 7/28/2015 1:16:46 AM, B0HICA wrote:At 7/28/2015 1:10:00 AM, tejretics wrote:At 7/27/2015 5:54:54 PM, B0HICA wrote:Here's a question. Time and space are part of the structure of the universe. This raises a question. If there was no time or space before the Big Bang, then where and when did it happen?The Big Bang didn't cause the universe. The universe was in a high-density state, and then expanded -- that's all the Big Bang says. I agree -- causality is incoherent without time -- but that doesn't affect the Big Bang model in any way; it only affects the God hypothesis.Haven't you heard? There is no big bang model. At least not one that conforms to our current understanding of physics. When you work your way backwards, to the beginning, the math breaks down. The simple fact is that science doesn't have a clue about how the universe came into being. "God did it" is just as valid a hypothesis as any other.The Big Bang model doesn't talk about how the universe came into being. It doesn't even show the causality of the universe -- all physicists concede that. The Big Bang and "God did it" aren't mutually exclusive hypotheses."Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass http://gotejas.com...
 Posts: 366 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2015 1:29:01 AMPosted: 2 years ago"The Big Bang and "God did it" aren't mutually exclusive hypotheses."I agree with that, but I disagree with how long it took. It's interesting to note that the Bible mentions how God "Stretched out" the Heavens. And if God did use a big bang, there is no reason why He couldn't have accelerated the process. After all, He is all powerful.
 Posts: 5,199 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2015 5:20:22 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 7/27/2015 11:23:48 PM, B0HICA wrote:At 7/27/2015 11:13:01 PM, Ramshutu wrote:At 7/27/2015 10:58:17 PM, B0HICA wrote:At 7/27/2015 7:37:27 PM, Floid wrote:At 7/27/2015 5:54:54 PM, B0HICA wrote:Here's a question. Time and space are part of the structure of the universe. This raises a question. If there was no time or space before the Big Bang, then where and when did it happen?In 4 dimensions we would say at point (0, 0, 0, 0).But there were no dimensions. Time and space didn't exist before the big bang. So how can something happen when it doesn't have a time or place to happen in?If you assume it was when the universe was created, you have a point. If it wasn't created, the Big Bang is merely a cosmic 4 dimensional equivalent of the North Pole. It is one end point at which time starts, but doesn't have anything "further north"Also what caused it to happen in the first place?Dunno. That's the only honest answer it is possible for anyone to give about the existence of the universeThings don't just happen on their own. Something, or someone, has to CAUSE it to happen.What caused God?You were actually making sense, even though I don't agree with you, right up to your last comment. God has no beginning. I thought everyone knew this. :)What you talking about? The pre visible universe had no beginning. I though everyone knew about that. The bigger question is whether there can be a cause to something without time? Does cause and effect require time?You can't avoid that question by defining God as being timless. If no time exists in God's state how could he possible cause something?
 Posts: 5,294 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 7/28/2015 5:36:47 PMPosted: 2 years agoAt 7/28/2015 12:45:28 AM, B0HICA wrote:At 7/28/2015 12:37:57 AM, Ramshutu wrote:At 7/27/2015 11:23:48 PM, B0HICA wrote:At 7/27/2015 11:13:01 PM, Ramshutu wrote:At 7/27/2015 10:58:17 PM, B0HICA wrote:At 7/27/2015 7:37:27 PM, Floid wrote:At 7/27/2015 5:54:54 PM, B0HICA wrote:Here's a question. Time and space are part of the structure of the universe. This raises a question. If there was no time or space before the Big Bang, then where and when did it happen?In 4 dimensions we would say at point (0, 0, 0, 0).But there were no dimensions. Time and space didn't exist before the big bang. So how can something happen when it doesn't have a time or place to happen in?If you assume it was when the universe was created, you have a point. If it wasn't created, the Big Bang is merely a cosmic 4 dimensional equivalent of the North Pole. It is one end point at which time starts, but doesn't have anything "further north"Also what caused it to happen in the first place?Dunno. That's the only honest answer it is possible for anyone to give about the existence of the universeThings don't just happen on their own. Something, or someone, has to CAUSE it to happen.What caused God?You were actually making sense, even though I don't agree with you, right up to your last comment. God has no beginning. I thought everyone knew this. :)So because things don't just happen on its own, you have to invent something that happens on its own?God did not happen.You have no evidence, testable theory, logical argument or relevant data to extrapolate this. You are simply asserting it as true. In this case you recognize the logical paradox of infinite regression and simply asserting that the universe has this problem but you assert that God does not. This is simply not any form of credible position because you have no reason (as you have no evidence, testable theory or logical argument) to assert why this is true, only that it is.One thing you fail to realize is that science doesn't have an explanation for how or why the universe exists.Oh I realize this.I believe that the scientific consensus is that the universe had a beginning. They still can't explain the existence of energy. Some of them believe that it always existed. How is this possible? They'll believe that, yet they balk at believing in an eternal being. Why is that?Knowledge is demonstrable. To say something is true, you need to be able to show it is true. Without such demonstration it is not possibly to differentiate your claims from any arbitrary made up fiction.In this way science doesn't know everything, but religion doesn't know ANYTHING.In the case of the beginning of the universe we don't know, and it's the only honest claim one can make in any way.Asserting God, is wild speculation with no basis in evidence or knowledge. Wild speculation that must be followed up by a successive series of even more wild speculation and assertions not based on evidence or knowledge to try and explain the discrepancy between reality and the original God assertion, as you do here.As science is about knowledge, which is demonstrable, you have to reject such assertions of believe and speculation for what it is; assertions and speculation that do not provide any knowledge but simply a comforting or curious excuse for people to rationalize a preexisting belief in God in the face of actual demonstrable knowledge.