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Dr. Carson vs evolution - relig/scie thread

ben2974
Posts: 767
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8/25/2015 5:43:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
https://www.youtube.com......

If you are going to contribute to this thread, I duly request that you have watched the whole video, so as not to contribute ignorantly and thus negligently. . Also, somewhere in your post, please state your general religious alignment.

That said . . .

I do not agree with everything he says here, and his final conclusion is somewhat unsatisfying; he determines that, in the end, it is faith vs faith - belief in evolution versus a belief in creation. Nonetheless, many of his premises resonate very well, for non-believers and believers alike. I personally like to believe in a god, but am not necessarily confident of his existence (i.e., my faith isn't really high . . .). I think the problem with religion vs science is that science is a never-ending process. We're learning new things everyday, achieving breakthroughs every now and then. A lot of Carson's "counter-evidence" for evolution relies on the current evidence and knowledge that we have for evolution. If trends tell us anything, it is only a matter of time when we will have gathered sufficient evidence to lay the question to rest.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,134
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8/25/2015 7:48:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 5:43:26 PM, ben2974 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com......

If you are going to contribute to this thread, I duly request that you have watched the whole video, so as not to contribute ignorantly and thus negligently. . Also, somewhere in your post, please state your general religious alignment.

That said . . .

I do not agree with everything he says here, and his final conclusion is somewhat unsatisfying; he determines that, in the end, it is faith vs faith - belief in evolution versus a belief in creation. Nonetheless, many of his premises resonate very well, for non-believers and believers alike. I personally like to believe in a god, but am not necessarily confident of his existence (i.e., my faith isn't really high . . .). I think the problem with religion vs science is that science is a never-ending process. We're learning new things everyday, achieving breakthroughs every now and then. A lot of Carson's "counter-evidence" for evolution relies on the current evidence and knowledge that we have for evolution. If trends tell us anything, it is only a matter of time when we will have gathered sufficient evidence to lay the question to rest.

The link leads to the Youtube main page so I have not been able to watch the video. However, the "faith" in evolution is different that the "faith" that religions talk about. Evolution is based on objective evidence whereas religious faith is not. I am a nonbeliever in any god claimed to exist by men.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
ben2974
Posts: 767
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8/25/2015 7:51:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 7:48:14 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 8/25/2015 5:43:26 PM, ben2974 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com......

If you are going to contribute to this thread, I duly request that you have watched the whole video, so as not to contribute ignorantly and thus negligently. . Also, somewhere in your post, please state your general religious alignment.

That said . . .

I do not agree with everything he says here, and his final conclusion is somewhat unsatisfying; he determines that, in the end, it is faith vs faith - belief in evolution versus a belief in creation. Nonetheless, many of his premises resonate very well, for non-believers and believers alike. I personally like to believe in a god, but am not necessarily confident of his existence (i.e., my faith isn't really high . . .). I think the problem with religion vs science is that science is a never-ending process. We're learning new things everyday, achieving breakthroughs every now and then. A lot of Carson's "counter-evidence" for evolution relies on the current evidence and knowledge that we have for evolution. If trends tell us anything, it is only a matter of time when we will have gathered sufficient evidence to lay the question to rest.

The link leads to the Youtube main page so I have not been able to watch the video. However, the "faith" in evolution is different that the "faith" that religions talk about. Evolution is based on objective evidence whereas religious faith is not. I am a nonbeliever in any god claimed to exist by men.

https://www.youtube.com...

Dammit...
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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8/25/2015 8:15:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Gee. A paternalistic monotheist who thinks being male and devout gives him the right to pronounce outside his professional expertise. Is this the first time we've seen that in the Science forum?

Why spend four minutes on what a paediatric neurosurgeon thinks about evolution, much less forty-eight?

It's absolutely fine to critique biology, Ben, but if you want to appeal to authority, you should at least cite an appropriate source: pick the thoughts of a research biologist, geneticist or paleontologist at least -- preferably one experienced in the field, and thoughts published in a respectable, peer-reviewed science journal.

Else, if you like Dr Carson's opinions, why not pose them as they should be posed when one doesn't understand the findings of another profession -- as questions -- and post them here?

Why waste the forum's time demanding we entertain the opinions of someone who isn't trained or researching actively in the first place?

Bah and piffle.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,134
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8/25/2015 8:23:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 7:51:02 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 8/25/2015 7:48:14 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 8/25/2015 5:43:26 PM, ben2974 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com......

If you are going to contribute to this thread, I duly request that you have watched the whole video, so as not to contribute ignorantly and thus negligently. . Also, somewhere in your post, please state your general religious alignment.

That said . . .

I do not agree with everything he says here, and his final conclusion is somewhat unsatisfying; he determines that, in the end, it is faith vs faith - belief in evolution versus a belief in creation. Nonetheless, many of his premises resonate very well, for non-believers and believers alike. I personally like to believe in a god, but am not necessarily confident of his existence (i.e., my faith isn't really high . . .). I think the problem with religion vs science is that science is a never-ending process. We're learning new things everyday, achieving breakthroughs every now and then. A lot of Carson's "counter-evidence" for evolution relies on the current evidence and knowledge that we have for evolution. If trends tell us anything, it is only a matter of time when we will have gathered sufficient evidence to lay the question to rest.

The link leads to the Youtube main page so I have not been able to watch the video. However, the "faith" in evolution is different that the "faith" that religions talk about. Evolution is based on objective evidence whereas religious faith is not. I am a nonbeliever in any god claimed to exist by men.

https://www.youtube.com...


Dammit...

First off, I am SO disappointed in Ben Carson. His entire speech is relying on arguments from incredulity, strawmans of evolution, and complete ignorance - none of which refute evolution.

As I said in my earlier post, we have evidence for evolution and none for God. It is absurd to deny the evidence for evolution (in many many disparate fields of science) in favor of an illogical claim which can only be advocated under the pretense that ignorance is knowledge.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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8/25/2015 9:26:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 8:23:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 8/25/2015 7:51:02 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 8/25/2015 7:48:14 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 8/25/2015 5:43:26 PM, ben2974 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com......

If you are going to contribute to this thread, I duly request that you have watched the whole video, so as not to contribute ignorantly and thus negligently. . Also, somewhere in your post, please state your general religious alignment.

That said . . .

I do not agree with everything he says here, and his final conclusion is somewhat unsatisfying; he determines that, in the end, it is faith vs faith - belief in evolution versus a belief in creation. Nonetheless, many of his premises resonate very well, for non-believers and believers alike. I personally like to believe in a god, but am not necessarily confident of his existence (i.e., my faith isn't really high . . .). I think the problem with religion vs science is that science is a never-ending process. We're learning new things everyday, achieving breakthroughs every now and then. A lot of Carson's "counter-evidence" for evolution relies on the current evidence and knowledge that we have for evolution. If trends tell us anything, it is only a matter of time when we will have gathered sufficient evidence to lay the question to rest.

The link leads to the Youtube main page so I have not been able to watch the video. However, the "faith" in evolution is different that the "faith" that religions talk about. Evolution is based on objective evidence whereas religious faith is not. I am a nonbeliever in any god claimed to exist by men.

https://www.youtube.com...


Dammit...

First off, I am SO disappointed in Ben Carson. His entire speech is relying on arguments from incredulity, strawmans of evolution, and complete ignorance - none of which refute evolution.

You're more patient than I was, Skep. :)

What is it about Abrahamic religions that teaches ignorant men they should say 'I think not', instead of 'I don't know?'
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,134
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8/25/2015 9:45:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 9:26:12 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 8/25/2015 8:23:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 8/25/2015 7:51:02 PM, ben2974 wrote:
At 8/25/2015 7:48:14 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 8/25/2015 5:43:26 PM, ben2974 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com......

If you are going to contribute to this thread, I duly request that you have watched the whole video, so as not to contribute ignorantly and thus negligently. . Also, somewhere in your post, please state your general religious alignment.

That said . . .

I do not agree with everything he says here, and his final conclusion is somewhat unsatisfying; he determines that, in the end, it is faith vs faith - belief in evolution versus a belief in creation. Nonetheless, many of his premises resonate very well, for non-believers and believers alike. I personally like to believe in a god, but am not necessarily confident of his existence (i.e., my faith isn't really high . . .). I think the problem with religion vs science is that science is a never-ending process. We're learning new things everyday, achieving breakthroughs every now and then. A lot of Carson's "counter-evidence" for evolution relies on the current evidence and knowledge that we have for evolution. If trends tell us anything, it is only a matter of time when we will have gathered sufficient evidence to lay the question to rest.

The link leads to the Youtube main page so I have not been able to watch the video. However, the "faith" in evolution is different that the "faith" that religions talk about. Evolution is based on objective evidence whereas religious faith is not. I am a nonbeliever in any god claimed to exist by men.

https://www.youtube.com...


Dammit...

First off, I am SO disappointed in Ben Carson. His entire speech is relying on arguments from incredulity, strawmans of evolution, and complete ignorance - none of which refute evolution.

You're more patient than I was, Skep. :)

Lol, I'm not sure the OP would agree since he hasn't responded, but I felt the OP was asking an honest question - one of the few I could answer. ;-)

What is it about Abrahamic religions that teaches ignorant men they should say 'I think not', instead of 'I don't know?'

I don't know (Haha).
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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8/25/2015 10:01:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 9:45:24 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 8/25/2015 9:26:12 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 8/25/2015 8:23:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
First off, I am SO disappointed in Ben Carson. His entire speech is relying on arguments from incredulity, strawmans of evolution, and complete ignorance - none of which refute evolution.

You're more patient than I was, Skep. :)

Lol, I'm not sure the OP would agree since he hasn't responded, but I felt the OP was asking an honest question - one of the few I could answer. ;-)

I agree that Ben (our OP) is sincere, but the matter of evolution already has been laid to rest among everyone who counts -- that is, the world's biologists. The rest of it is controversy manufactured from people speaking outside their expertise. Biologists themselves were satisfied by the mid 20th century that there was no controversy about the origin of species -- only the pace of development and some mechanical details.

It's not even Christians who oppose evolution. Even the most conservative Pope in recent memory -- Ratzinger -- was happy to come out for evolution.

The only people with a real axe to grind about evolution are fundamentalist theologians, most of them with US passports. And the only thing that keeps the supposed 'debate' current is people listening to them pretend they know what they're talking about. And again, the only place where they get much media time to air their tinfoil-hat ideas in the first place, is in the US, a country so scientifically advanced it really should know better.

Hence my 'bah, piffle'. Would Dr Carson let a biologist tell us how to perform brain-surgery on an infant? Why then are we listening to him talk about evolutionary biology?
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,134
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8/25/2015 10:42:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/25/2015 10:01:07 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 8/25/2015 9:45:24 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 8/25/2015 9:26:12 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 8/25/2015 8:23:09 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
First off, I am SO disappointed in Ben Carson. His entire speech is relying on arguments from incredulity, strawmans of evolution, and complete ignorance - none of which refute evolution.

You're more patient than I was, Skep. :)

Lol, I'm not sure the OP would agree since he hasn't responded, but I felt the OP was asking an honest question - one of the few I could answer. ;-)

I agree that Ben (our OP) is sincere, but the matter of evolution already has been laid to rest among everyone who counts -- that is, the world's biologists. The rest of it is controversy manufactured from people speaking outside their expertise. Biologists themselves were satisfied by the mid 20th century that there was no controversy about the origin of species -- only the pace of development and some mechanical details.

It's not even Christians who oppose evolution. Even the most conservative Pope in recent memory -- Ratzinger -- was happy to come out for evolution.

The only people with a real axe to grind about evolution are fundamentalist theologians, most of them with US passports. And the only thing that keeps the supposed 'debate' current is people listening to them pretend they know what they're talking about. And again, the only place where they get much media time to air their tinfoil-hat ideas in the first place, is in the US, a country so scientifically advanced it really should know better.

I agree. It is embarrassing to me (being from the US) that a majority of the populace in the US does not accept evolution in spite of the amazing amount of evidence for it. To my utter frustration, I am surrounded by people that accept things very much like what Dr. Carson says partially because non qualified people like Dr. Carson say it and partially because they don't understand what evolution actually is. Unfortunately, the former perpetuates the latter.

Hence my 'bah, piffle'. Would Dr Carson let a biologist tell us how to perform brain-surgery on an infant? Why then are we listening to him talk about evolutionary biology?

I agree it is nonsense and Carson is not qualified to speak as an authority on evolution (or God). I am not a scientist so (I imagine) Carson's "piffle" does not hit so close to home for me as you - although it is still a familiar irritation.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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8/25/2015 11:11:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I commented on the other thread, and I admitted I can't possibly watch 42 min of silliness, but I have a question. Why is this even something for a presidential candidate to discuss? What national issue are we calling on Carsons limited understanding on Biology for? I don't go around asking biologists what to do with Iran - Carson should let educators educate, and scientist science in peace. If he needs some answers (real ones) he can ask people that... you know... work in the field.