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Climate change question from a moderate.

Bosoxfaninla
Posts: 10
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10/19/2015 12:21:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If climate change does in fact exist and effect ice caps, why do they presume the ocean levels are going to rise? Look at it this way, if I put ice in a full cup of water and let it melt, the water level does not rise an spill out of the cup, so why should it be any different?
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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10/19/2015 12:31:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 12:21:58 AM, Bosoxfaninla wrote:
If climate change does in fact exist and effect ice caps, why do they presume the ocean levels are going to rise? Look at it this way, if I put ice in a full cup of water and let it melt, the water level does not rise an spill out of the cup, so why should it be any different?

Well.... Most ice is actually on LAND.
TBR
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10/19/2015 12:35:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 12:21:58 AM, Bosoxfaninla wrote:
If climate change does in fact exist and effect ice caps, why do they presume the ocean levels are going to rise? Look at it this way, if I put ice in a full cup of water and let it melt, the water level does not rise an spill out of the cup, so why should it be any different?

Sorry, that is a bit of a misnomer. The problem being discussed in the land ice, that is true. When I say "most ice" I am talking about the ice in mountain glaciers, ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica. Sea ice total changes with the seasons. Again, regardless what is at issue is ice that is on land.
TBR
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10/19/2015 12:36:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 12:21:58 AM, Bosoxfaninla wrote:
If climate change does in fact exist and effect ice caps, why do they presume the ocean levels are going to rise? Look at it this way, if I put ice in a full cup of water and let it melt, the water level does not rise an spill out of the cup, so why should it be any different?

And... Moderate (any political party) should make NO difference in this discussion.
Bosoxfaninla
Posts: 10
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10/19/2015 12:37:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 12:31:28 AM, TBR wrote:
At 10/19/2015 12:21:58 AM, Bosoxfaninla wrote:
If climate change does in fact exist and effect ice caps, why do they presume the ocean levels are going to rise? Look at it this way, if I put ice in a full cup of water and let it melt, the water level does not rise an spill out of the cup, so why should it be any different?

Well.... Most ice is actually on LAND.

Is there actually a study which proves this? Also if it's on land and it melts how would that water necessarily transfer over to the ocean? Also how big of an impact would this amount of "land water" have on sea levels?
Bosoxfaninla
Posts: 10
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10/19/2015 12:39:48 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 12:36:51 AM, TBR wrote:
At 10/19/2015 12:21:58 AM, Bosoxfaninla wrote:
If climate change does in fact exist and effect ice caps, why do they presume the ocean levels are going to rise? Look at it this way, if I put ice in a full cup of water and let it melt, the water level does not rise an spill out of the cup, so why should it be any different?

And... Moderate (any political party) should make NO difference in this discussion.

It most certainly does, you see a great amount of conservatives who deny it simply because it is not a major role in the republican platform. I am a conservative but have no stance on the issue and would like to get more knowledgeable on the issue.
TBR
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10/19/2015 12:40:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 12:37:34 AM, Bosoxfaninla wrote:
At 10/19/2015 12:31:28 AM, TBR wrote:
At 10/19/2015 12:21:58 AM, Bosoxfaninla wrote:
If climate change does in fact exist and effect ice caps, why do they presume the ocean levels are going to rise? Look at it this way, if I put ice in a full cup of water and let it melt, the water level does not rise an spill out of the cup, so why should it be any different?

Well.... Most ice is actually on LAND.

Is there actually a study which proves this? Also if it's on land and it melts how would that water necessarily transfer over to the ocean? Also how big of an impact would this amount of "land water" have on sea levels?

Sure.... There is a ton of data

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov...

As to how it would make it to sea levels, where else (just logicly) do you expect it to go?
Bosoxfaninla
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10/19/2015 12:41:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 12:35:41 AM, TBR wrote:
At 10/19/2015 12:21:58 AM, Bosoxfaninla wrote:
If climate change does in fact exist and effect ice caps, why do they presume the ocean levels are going to rise? Look at it this way, if I put ice in a full cup of water and let it melt, the water level does not rise an spill out of the cup, so why should it be any different?

Sorry, that is a bit of a misnomer. The problem being discussed in the land ice, that is true. When I say "most ice" I am talking about the ice in mountain glaciers, ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica. Sea ice total changes with the seasons. Again, regardless what is at issue is ice that is on land.

"10 percent of land area on Earth is covered with glacial ice, including glaciers, ice caps, and the ice sheets of Greenland and Antarctica. Glacierized areas cover over 15 million square kilometers (5.8 million square miles). Glaciers store about 75 percent of the world's fresh water."

How big of an impact would that have on the ocean, and how can we presume 100% of that water will reach the ocean?
TBR
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10/19/2015 12:42:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 12:39:48 AM, Bosoxfaninla wrote:
At 10/19/2015 12:36:51 AM, TBR wrote:
At 10/19/2015 12:21:58 AM, Bosoxfaninla wrote:
If climate change does in fact exist and effect ice caps, why do they presume the ocean levels are going to rise? Look at it this way, if I put ice in a full cup of water and let it melt, the water level does not rise an spill out of the cup, so why should it be any different?

And... Moderate (any political party) should make NO difference in this discussion.

It most certainly does, you see a great amount of conservatives who deny it simply because it is not a major role in the republican platform. I am a conservative but have no stance on the issue and would like to get more knowledgeable on the issue.

That is true, I simply say it should NOT. Political party should not affect how you read data.
TBR
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10/19/2015 12:45:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 12:41:58 AM, Bosoxfaninla wrote:
At 10/19/2015 12:35:41 AM, TBR wrote:
At 10/19/2015 12:21:58 AM, Bosoxfaninla wrote:
If climate change does in fact exist and effect ice caps, why do they presume the ocean levels are going to rise? Look at it this way, if I put ice in a full cup of water and let it melt, the water level does not rise an spill out of the cup, so why should it be any different?

Sorry, that is a bit of a misnomer. The problem being discussed in the land ice, that is true. When I say "most ice" I am talking about the ice in mountain glaciers, ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica. Sea ice total changes with the seasons. Again, regardless what is at issue is ice that is on land.

"10 percent of land area on Earth is covered with glacial ice, including glaciers, ice caps, and the ice sheets of Greenland and Antarctica. Glacierized areas cover over 15 million square kilometers (5.8 million square miles). Glaciers store about 75 percent of the world's fresh water."

How big of an impact would that have on the ocean, and how can we presume 100% of that water will reach the ocean?

100%? No, and neither would all of it melt (not for a good long time anyway). As the link I posted said, TOTAL loss of the ice sheets would raise sea level by over 75 meters. That total is not likely or predicted.
TBR
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10/19/2015 12:51:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 12:21:58 AM, Bosoxfaninla wrote:
If climate change does in fact exist and effect ice caps, why do they presume the ocean levels are going to rise? Look at it this way, if I put ice in a full cup of water and let it melt, the water level does not rise an spill out of the cup, so why should it be any different?

This is some good info.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The Antarctic ice sheet is one of the two polar ice caps of the Earth.
It covers about 98% of the Antarctic continent and is the largest single mass of ice on Earth. It covers an area of almost 14 million square km (5.4 million sq. miles) and contains 26.5 million cubic km of ice[2] (6.36 million cubic miles). That is, approximately 61 percent of all fresh water on the Earth is held in the Antarctic ice sheet, an amount equivalent to about 70 m of water in the world's oceans
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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10/19/2015 2:27:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 12:21:58 AM, Bosoxfaninla wrote:
If climate change does in fact exist and effect ice caps, why do they presume the ocean levels are going to rise? Look at it this way, if I put ice in a full cup of water and let it melt, the water level does not rise an spill out of the cup, so why should it be any different?

While ice is a contributing factor, and has been explained here, a large contributor to rising sea levels is actual thermal expansion. Sea's are getting warmer, and as a result, it expands.
Akhenaten
Posts: 854
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10/19/2015 3:06:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 2:27:29 AM, Ramshutu wrote:

While ice is a contributing factor, and has been explained here, a large contributor to rising sea levels is actual thermal expansion. Sea's are getting warmer, and as a result, it expands.

When you say that oceans are getting warmer do you realize that it can take an ocean more than 800 years to increase in temperature by less than .0001 of a degree?

Where are you getting your data from?
Ramshutu
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10/19/2015 3:18:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 3:06:16 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
At 10/19/2015 2:27:29 AM, Ramshutu wrote:

While ice is a contributing factor, and has been explained here, a large contributor to rising sea levels is actual thermal expansion. Sea's are getting warmer, and as a result, it expands.

When you say that oceans are getting warmer do you realize that it can take an ocean more than 800 years to increase in temperature by less than .0001 of a degree?

Where are you getting your data from?

Well, I googled "Sea level rise".

Here.
http://climate.nasa.gov...

And here:
https://en.wikipedia.org...

And here:
http://oceanservice.noaa.gov...

And here:
https://www.ipcc.ch...

And here:
https://www.ipcc.ch...

ALL sources cited, based from satellite observation shows that the sea level is rising by about 3-4mm per year.

This raises the question:

Where the F are you getting YOUR data from?
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,077
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10/19/2015 3:30:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If I recall one McGyver episode correctly, water is one of few substances that expands whenever it transitions from liquid to solid. Just going by sea ice (such as arctic sea ice), wouldn't water levels decrease?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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Akhenaten
Posts: 854
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10/19/2015 3:38:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 3:18:30 AM, Ramshutu wrote:

This raises the question:

Where the F are you getting YOUR data from?

None of your references has anything to do with sea temperature rising. That is the issue that I was contesting.

Note- If the sea level rises, the level has to rise uniformly throughout all the oceans.

Note- The ocean hasn't risen one iota where I live! lol
Ramshutu
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10/19/2015 3:44:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 3:38:00 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
At 10/19/2015 3:18:30 AM, Ramshutu wrote:

This raises the question:

Where the F are you getting YOUR data from?

None of your references has anything to do with sea temperature rising. That is the issue that I was contesting.

Note- If the sea level rises, the level has to rise uniformly throughout all the oceans.

Note- The ocean hasn't risen one iota where I live! lol

Sorry, I misread your post.

So here:
http://www3.epa.gov...

And here:

http://ocean.nationalgeographic.com...

And here:
http://www.eea.europa.eu...

And here:
https://www.ipcc.ch...

I ask again, where did you get your sources from?
Akhenaten
Posts: 854
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10/19/2015 3:50:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 3:44:09 AM, Ramshutu wrote:

And here:

http://ocean.nationalgeographic.com...

And here:
http://www.eea.europa.eu...

And here:
https://www.ipcc.ch...


I ask again, where did you get your sources from?

These temperatures are only sea surface temperatures. The ocean is kilometres deep in some parts.
If there are any temperature rises it must be those tricky one-way adjustments! lol

http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
Ramshutu
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10/19/2015 3:51:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 3:50:08 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
At 10/19/2015 3:44:09 AM, Ramshutu wrote:

And here:

http://ocean.nationalgeographic.com...

And here:
http://www.eea.europa.eu...

And here:
https://www.ipcc.ch...


I ask again, where did you get your sources from?

These temperatures are only sea surface temperatures. The ocean is kilometres deep in some parts.
If there are any temperature rises it must be those tricky one-way adjustments! lol

http://www.telegraph.co.uk...

Where did you get your sources from.
dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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10/19/2015 3:56:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 3:30:17 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
If I recall one McGyver episode correctly, water is one of few substances that expands whenever it transitions from liquid to solid. Just going by sea ice (such as arctic sea ice), wouldn't water levels decrease?

No. You forget that part of the ice is sticking out above the water (the extra volume if you like). The ice displaces exactly the same weight of water as its own weight. (What you say would be true in a confined space such as a plastic bottle which would burst if you filled it with water and put in a freezer).

In fact sea levels are very slightly increased by melting sea ice as that ice is usually fresh water which has a lower density than salt water.

https://www.newscientist.com...
TBR
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10/19/2015 3:58:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 3:50:08 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
At 10/19/2015 3:44:09 AM, Ramshutu wrote:

And here:

http://ocean.nationalgeographic.com...

And here:
http://www.eea.europa.eu...

And here:
https://www.ipcc.ch...


I ask again, where did you get your sources from?

These temperatures are only sea surface temperatures. The ocean is kilometres deep in some parts.
If there are any temperature rises it must be those tricky one-way adjustments! lol

http://www.telegraph.co.uk...

You do know your link does not refute the point made, right?

Look, your desire to make a point is not even close to the topic of the OP. Presume that he is sincere in trying to understand the issue, your link adds no information.
TBR
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10/19/2015 4:04:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Let me be clear. Answering the question, and doubting the data are different things. Do you have anything to add to the actual discussion, or only straight political points to make? I ask because, up thread I made the point that politics should not be there factor.
Vox_Veritas
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10/19/2015 4:09:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 3:56:06 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/19/2015 3:30:17 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
If I recall one McGyver episode correctly, water is one of few substances that expands whenever it transitions from liquid to solid. Just going by sea ice (such as arctic sea ice), wouldn't water levels decrease?

No. You forget that part of the ice is sticking out above the water (the extra volume if you like). The ice displaces exactly the same weight of water as its own weight. (What you say would be true in a confined space such as a plastic bottle which would burst if you filled it with water and put in a freezer).

In fact sea levels are very slightly increased by melting sea ice as that ice is usually fresh water which has a lower density than salt water.

https://www.newscientist.com...

I hear, however, that 70-90% of an average iceberg is submerged.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

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dee-em
Posts: 6,481
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10/19/2015 4:13:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 4:09:15 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 10/19/2015 3:56:06 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/19/2015 3:30:17 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
If I recall one McGyver episode correctly, water is one of few substances that expands whenever it transitions from liquid to solid. Just going by sea ice (such as arctic sea ice), wouldn't water levels decrease?

No. You forget that part of the ice is sticking out above the water (the extra volume if you like). The ice displaces exactly the same weight of water as its own weight. (What you say would be true in a confined space such as a plastic bottle which would burst if you filled it with water and put in a freezer).

In fact sea levels are very slightly increased by melting sea ice as that ice is usually fresh water which has a lower density than salt water.

https://www.newscientist.com...

I hear, however, that 70-90% of an average iceberg is submerged.

It's about 90%. What is your point?
Vox_Veritas
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10/19/2015 4:14:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
If I'm not mistaken, displacement is more about mass than weight. Weight allows it to sink that far into the water but without much mass it will displace very little. The weight should be the same regardless of its form, but its mass as water is different than its mass as ice.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
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Vox_Veritas
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10/19/2015 4:16:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
So I tend to think of it this way:
90% of iceberg's weight, the part underwater, becomes more condensed and takes up less space. That 10% adds to the water's mass, but it's unable to compensate fully for the 90%.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Vox_Veritas
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10/19/2015 4:18:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm sure that I'm missing some key detail, and this doesn't cover land ice. But where I'm standing right now it doesn't look like sea ice is really a problem.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Akhenaten
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10/19/2015 4:20:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 3:51:54 AM, Ramshutu wrote:

Where did you get your sources from.

So, you can't read now!

Christopher Booker - Daily Telegraph
Vox_Veritas
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10/19/2015 4:22:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I mean, if you throw a million pound (but normal sized) penny in the water, it's not like that penny would displace so much water that it'd be like there was some kind of magic force field surrounding the penny on all sides. It'd displace as much water as a penny normally would.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Ramshutu
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10/19/2015 4:31:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/19/2015 4:20:52 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
At 10/19/2015 3:51:54 AM, Ramshutu wrote:

Where did you get your sources from.

So, you can't read now!

Christopher Booker - Daily Telegraph

"do you realize that it can take an ocean more than 800 years to increase in temperature by less than .0001 of a degree?"

Where are your sources.