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Preferred Programming Language

Cobalt
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11/9/2015 10:48:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
How many programmers do we have on DDO? What's your favorite programming, why is it your favorite, and what types of applications do you usually use it for?

I've spent the past two years diving into computer science and my favorite language is still the trusty beginners language -- Python. Powerful, but simple.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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11/9/2015 7:55:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 10:48:06 AM, Cobalt wrote:
How many programmers do we have on DDO? What's your favorite programming, why is it your favorite, and what types of applications do you usually use it for?

I've spent the past two years diving into computer science and my favorite language is still the trusty beginners language -- Python. Powerful, but simple.

Well, you should spend some time in the tech forum. I have been attempting to kick off a project/lessen for the user base (been slow, only a handful seem interested).

Now. To the question. Well, when you say "best language" I think across time. The scripting languages are by far the most immediately useful, and approachable by new users. ASP, VBS, etc... One of the things that frustrates me when speaking to new/less knowledgeable users is the insistence on jumping into .NET or Java. They are terrible first languages to learn.
TBR
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11/9/2015 7:58:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
PHP, as a procedural language, is a great place to start. PHP (I have intense feelings about its use as a enterprise or in any way a OOP language) is like teaching someone HTML. If I can't get you going in an afternoon, you may not have any future in development.
Mhykiel
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11/9/2015 8:51:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 7:58:35 PM, TBR wrote:
PHP, as a procedural language, is a great place to start. PHP (I have intense feelings about its use as a enterprise or in any way a OOP language) is like teaching someone HTML. If I can't get you going in an afternoon, you may not have any future in development.

I've been doing more front end stuff, so my bias is towards ja<x>vascript and php. I think php is best because you can start learning OOP and patterns. It's powerful enough to start making any project a small to mid size team could possibly have time to code.

Php has mad some headway in enterprise solutions, facebook made some good updates to memory caching capability.

But if you are beginning ja<x>vascript and php practicing OOP and patterns (not religiously) is a common and good route
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
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11/9/2015 9:16:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 10:48:06 AM, Cobalt wrote:
How many programmers do we have on DDO? What's your favorite programming, why is it your favorite, and what types of applications do you usually use it for?

C#. Because it is easy and I am bad lol
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
ButterCatX
Posts: 2,228
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11/9/2015 9:28:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 10:48:06 AM, Cobalt wrote:
How many programmers do we have on DDO?
A couple
What's your favorite programming, why is it your favorite, and what types of applications do you usually use it for?

I started with RobotC which was a version of C created for FTC use, then I started using Java and I like it better, though I probably couldn't use it as effectively without my RobotC background and my great Java teacher: The Supreme G-Lord

I've spent the past two years diving into computer science and my favorite language is still the trusty beginners language -- Python. Powerful, but simple.
I bet fanfics are already being posted on random blogs about us.-Vaarka

Butters preformed his duty to the town and died with honor, he helped us kill scum, so we know have to go and make sure his death wasn't in vain and win this game for him.-lannan13

All hail the great and mighty Butters, who died for our inactive cause.-Vaarka

fuckith offith, lol.-Ore(talking to me)

And guess what happened to FT? He got raped to death.-Xlav

You are so obviously town I love you man.-VOT
Yksuh
Posts: 1
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11/9/2015 10:04:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I started programming with HTML/PHP/JS a couple of years ago.

Then I turned to C++ because I thought it was more interesting to create programs than websites for individual projects, and I created an image processing software with Qt, followed by a Rogue-like game using SFML.

However since the last summer holiday, I'm programming a lot with Python and I really enjoy this language which has a more intuitive syntax while being powerful. I also like the interpreted aspect which allows to run tests way faster and to try out things directly on the console. I especially use Python to create little algorithms, not real programs, just things to solve maths problem (for example Project Euler, I'm addicted with it) !
French guy here! I'm basically truly sorry for each single mistake I would make, and feel free to correct me, I'm here to learn :D
dee-em
Posts: 6,476
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11/9/2015 10:05:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 10:48:06 AM, Cobalt wrote:
How many programmers do we have on DDO? What's your favorite programming, why is it your favorite, and what types of applications do you usually use it for?

I've spent the past two years diving into computer science and my favorite language is still the trusty beginners language -- Python. Powerful, but simple.

I think for elegance you can't go past Pascal. It has a beautiful clean syntax and makes a great teaching language for learning about algorithms. Delphi from Borland was a nice implementation for commercial usage using object oriented features.

Having said that, I spent most of my programming life writing in C. As a technical programmer developing tools and cross-platform emulation software on mini-computers, it was easily the most portable and standardized language. You could find compilers for almost any operating system.

Disclaimer: I left the IT industry 10 years ago.
TBR
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11/9/2015 11:39:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I started with RobotC which was a version of C created for FTC use, then I started using Java and I like it better, though I probably couldn't use it as effectively without my RobotC background and my great Java teacher: The Supreme G-Lord

I've spent the past two years diving into computer science and my favorite language is still the trusty beginners language -- Python. Powerful, but simple.

C is... Well, very easy, with a ton of tricky spots. Dealing with memory etc. Hard to teach to beginners, but unlike .NET stuff, its all right there to see. It is straightforward, but if you are not messing with hardware I would never suggest it to anyone.
Cobalt
Posts: 991
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11/10/2015 12:43:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 10:04:31 PM, Yksuh wrote:
I started programming with HTML/PHP/JS a couple of years ago.

Then I turned to C++ because I thought it was more interesting to create programs than websites for individual projects, and I created an image processing software with Qt, followed by a Rogue-like game using SFML.

However since the last summer holiday, I'm programming a lot with Python and I really enjoy this language which has a more intuitive syntax while being powerful. I also like the interpreted aspect which allows to run tests way faster and to try out things directly on the console. I especially use Python to create little algorithms, not real programs, just things to solve maths problem (for example Project Euler, I'm addicted with it) !

I'm a huge fan of Project Euler and other sites like that. Right now I'm exploring Codingame, which has a variety of game-based challenges of varying difficulties. Plus they have a sort of "code showdown" where you compete against others to finish a challenge more quickly or with fewer characters than everyone else.
ButterCatX
Posts: 2,228
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11/10/2015 1:49:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 11:39:14 PM, TBR wrote:
I started with RobotC which was a version of C created for FTC use, then I started using Java and I like it better, though I probably couldn't use it as effectively without my RobotC background and my great Java teacher: The Supreme G-Lord

I've spent the past two years diving into computer science and my favorite language is still the trusty beginners language -- Python. Powerful, but simple.

C is... Well, very easy, with a ton of tricky spots. Dealing with memory etc. Hard to teach to beginners, but unlike .NET stuff, its all right there to see. It is straightforward, but if you are not messing with hardware I would never suggest it to anyone.

I had to teach myself for robotics, and it was awful because I was the only programmer so I wrote everything while teaching myself how to do it, it was awful.
I bet fanfics are already being posted on random blogs about us.-Vaarka

Butters preformed his duty to the town and died with honor, he helped us kill scum, so we know have to go and make sure his death wasn't in vain and win this game for him.-lannan13

All hail the great and mighty Butters, who died for our inactive cause.-Vaarka

fuckith offith, lol.-Ore(talking to me)

And guess what happened to FT? He got raped to death.-Xlav

You are so obviously town I love you man.-VOT
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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11/10/2015 1:56:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I had to teach myself for robotics, and it was awful because I was the only programmer so I wrote everything while teaching myself how to do it, it was awful.

If things like "request memory from the heap" make you cringe"... Yea.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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11/10/2015 8:06:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I've written programs in an awful lot of languages for science, business and gaming, yet I can't find a set of criteria that would make one my favourite.

For those members who have a favourite, what criteria did you use?
kp98
Posts: 729
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11/10/2015 9:13:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Delphi from Borland was a nice implementation for commercial usage using object oriented features.


It still is... but it's become unfashionable and the latest versions are are downright clunky compared to version 7... happy days.
dee-em
Posts: 6,476
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11/11/2015 8:02:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 11:39:14 PM, TBR wrote:
I started with RobotC which was a version of C created for FTC use, then I started using Java and I like it better, though I probably couldn't use it as effectively without my RobotC background and my great Java teacher: The Supreme G-Lord

I've spent the past two years diving into computer science and my favorite language is still the trusty beginners language -- Python. Powerful, but simple.

C is... Well, very easy, with a ton of tricky spots. Dealing with memory etc. Hard to teach to beginners, but unlike .NET stuff, its all right there to see. It is straightforward, but if you are not messing with hardware I would never suggest it to anyone.

C was never limited to just messing with hardware. The problem was pointers and how easily they could bring the unwary undone. Too powerful and dangerous a feature in some hands. I knew some junior programmers who could never grasp the concept at all. :-)
dee-em
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11/11/2015 8:15:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/10/2015 8:06:11 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
I've written programs in an awful lot of languages for science, business and gaming, yet I can't find a set of criteria that would make one my favourite.

For those members who have a favourite, what criteria did you use?

For me it was brilliantly elegant syntax as I already said. The early Borland Delphi implementation with object-oriented extensions and IDE was by far the best language and environment I encountered in my 30+ years in the industry. It was a joy to develop software with and it produced lightning fast fully compiled code.
RuvDraba
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11/11/2015 7:03:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/11/2015 8:15:32 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/10/2015 8:06:11 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
I've written programs in an awful lot of languages for science, business and gaming, yet I can't find a set of criteria that would make one my favourite.

For those members who have a favourite, what criteria did you use?

For me it was brilliantly elegant syntax as I already said. The early Borland Delphi implementation with object-oriented extensions and IDE was by far the best language and environment I encountered in my 30+ years in the industry. It was a joy to develop software with and it produced lightning fast fully compiled code.

Thank you for your answer, Dee-Em. If I can poke further...

'Elegance' is a term nearly every dedicated software developer uses. It's an intuitive notion that I think may be tied to the proceduralisation of ideas for data and process. But what are its key criteria?

Realising that the least favourite tasks in software development are often debug/trace, ironing out syntax errors, and documentation, I wondered too, how much a good IDE and/or execution/debug environment and/or documentation system contributes to appreciation of a programming language.

Your thoughts?
v3nesl
Posts: 4,495
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11/11/2015 9:10:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/11/2015 8:15:32 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/10/2015 8:06:11 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
I've written programs in an awful lot of languages for science, business and gaming, yet I can't find a set of criteria that would make one my favourite.

For those members who have a favourite, what criteria did you use?

For me it was brilliantly elegant syntax as I already said. The early Borland Delphi implementation with object-oriented extensions and IDE was by far the best language and environment I encountered in my 30+ years in the industry. It was a joy to develop software with and it produced lightning fast fully compiled code.

C is still very much state of the art in the linux kernel world. You mentioned "that was 10 years ago", so I'm just saying, it's still considered the 'real' programming language by kernel types

The thing I've always loved about C is that you pretty much know what machine code the compiler is going to produce. Not byte for byte of course, but there's a direct correlation between the code you're writing and the machine code that gets cranked out. It's not a black box; it's almost a shorthand way of writing machine code.
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v3nesl
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11/11/2015 9:16:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/11/2015 7:03:49 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 11/11/2015 8:15:32 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/10/2015 8:06:11 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
I've written programs in an awful lot of languages for science, business and gaming, yet I can't find a set of criteria that would make one my favourite.

For those members who have a favourite, what criteria did you use?

For me it was brilliantly elegant syntax as I already said. The early Borland Delphi implementation with object-oriented extensions and IDE was by far the best language and environment I encountered in my 30+ years in the industry. It was a joy to develop software with and it produced lightning fast fully compiled code.

Thank you for your answer, Dee-Em. If I can poke further...

'Elegance' is a term nearly every dedicated software developer uses. It's an intuitive notion that I think may be tied to the proceduralisation of ideas for data and process. But what are its key criteria?


You didn't ask me, but I'd just throw out the point that there are certain objective metrics for a language. For a given task, say a bubble sort, you can measure
- how much source code does it take? How many lines of code to write the job?
- how much machine code gets generated, and how fast does that run?

less objective, but still roughly measurable - how readable is the code? Will the next guy be able to maintain it, or will he just want to re-write it? I guess this is sort of a 'how intuitive is the language' kind of measure.

just some thoughts...
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dee-em
Posts: 6,476
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11/11/2015 11:16:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/11/2015 7:03:49 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 11/11/2015 8:15:32 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/10/2015 8:06:11 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
I've written programs in an awful lot of languages for science, business and gaming, yet I can't find a set of criteria that would make one my favourite.

For those members who have a favourite, what criteria did you use?

For me it was brilliantly elegant syntax as I already said. The early Borland Delphi implementation with object-oriented extensions and IDE was by far the best language and environment I encountered in my 30+ years in the industry. It was a joy to develop software with and it produced lightning fast fully compiled code.

Thank you for your answer, Dee-Em. If I can poke further...

'Elegance' is a term nearly every dedicated software developer uses. It's an intuitive notion that I think may be tied to the proceduralisation of ideas for data and process. But what are its key criteria?

I'm not sure if we are on the same page here. I'm not referring to the elegance of the code written which is more in the domain of the programmer and his art and skill. Elegant code and algorithms can be written in almost any language, although having written some COBOL for example, it can be a difficult, uphill battle. :-)

No, I was referring to the design elegance of the language elements themselves. The choice of keywords in the grammar, the use of an actual assignment operator (rather than the ambiguous equals sign), the insistence on indentation and so on. My first educational exposure and then professional work was in assembly language and Fortran (IV, V and 77), so when I first saw the beautiful syntax of Pascal it was like a revelation to me. I thought, someone (Niklaus Wirth, "Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs") has really, really thought about this.

Realising that the least favourite tasks in software development are often debug/trace, ironing out syntax errors, and documentation, I wondered too, how much a good IDE and/or execution/debug environment and/or documentation system contributes to appreciation of a programming language.

Personally, I loved the challenge of debugging. Hated documentation. :-)

I understand what you are saying but you asked for a favourite, not the most efficient and productive. It's like having an open-top sports car and a Volvo in the garage. One might be more practical and safe for day to day living (shopping, picking up the kids) but which one would be your favourite to drive? :-)
dee-em
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11/11/2015 11:26:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/11/2015 9:10:42 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 11/11/2015 8:15:32 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/10/2015 8:06:11 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
I've written programs in an awful lot of languages for science, business and gaming, yet I can't find a set of criteria that would make one my favourite.

For those members who have a favourite, what criteria did you use?

For me it was brilliantly elegant syntax as I already said. The early Borland Delphi implementation with object-oriented extensions and IDE was by far the best language and environment I encountered in my 30+ years in the industry. It was a joy to develop software with and it produced lightning fast fully compiled code.

C is still very much state of the art in the linux kernel world. You mentioned "that was 10 years ago", so I'm just saying, it's still considered the 'real' programming language by kernel types.

Yes, I know and it's perfect for that task. Don't get me wrong, I have a soft spot for C having written a tonne of code with it. Would I call the design of C elegant though? No. The precompiler directives were a mess. The datatypes (eg. Int) were inconsistent over different platforms. Powerful? Yes.

The thing I've always loved about C is that you pretty much know what machine code the compiler is going to produce. Not byte for byte of course, but there's a direct correlation between the code you're writing and the machine code that gets cranked out. It's not a black box; it's almost a shorthand way of writing machine code.

Exactly. Both its strength and its weakness. I've written machine code (assembly language) and we can do better.
RuvDraba
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11/11/2015 11:49:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/11/2015 11:16:05 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/11/2015 7:03:49 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
'Elegance' is a term nearly every dedicated software developer uses. It's an intuitive notion that I think may be tied to the proceduralisation of ideas for data and process. But what are its key criteria?

I was referring to the design elegance of the language elements themselves. The choice of keywords in the grammar, the use of an actual assignment operator (rather than the ambiguous equals sign), the insistence on indentation and so on. My first educational exposure and then professional work was in assembly language and Fortran (IV, V and 77), so when I first saw the beautiful syntax of Pascal it was like a revelation to me. I thought, someone (Niklaus Wirth, "Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs") has really, really thought about this.

Pascal's syntax and procedural approach made it a great teaching language. I know scientists who liked to write in FORTRAN, but didn't find many students who preferred to learn programming in it. :)

I understand what you are saying but you asked for a favourite
Actually, the Original Post isn't mine. :)

I just noted the word 'elegance' and asked what it meant. It sounds like you're talking about an aesthetic of communication from programmer to programmer. V3nesl's post following yours talks about efficiency of expression -- that's another way to look at it too.
RuvDraba
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11/12/2015 12:15:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/11/2015 9:16:19 PM, v3nesl wrote:
You didn't ask me, but I'd just throw out the point that there are certain objective metrics for a language. For a given task, say a bubble sort, you can measure
- how much source code does it take? How many lines of code to write the job?
Yes. However, the execution semantics of the language may not be comparable, so we may not be comparing apples. For example, the language Wolfram from Mathematica can be written declaratively, so the execution semantics may be more complex than a procedural language. Here's Wolfram's idea of Bubblesort for example:

bubbleSort[{w___, x_, y_, z___}] /; x > y := bubbleSort[{w, y, x, z}]
bubbleSort[sortedList_] := sortedList

The first line swaps out-of-order items and recurses. The second is the end-case. :)

- how much machine code gets generated, and how fast does that run?
Yes, but it raises the question of what a programming language is, since assembler and microcode tend to be fast and concise.

less objective, but still roughly measurable - how readable is the code? Will the next guy be able to maintain it, or will he just want to re-write it? I guess this is sort of a 'how intuitive is the language' kind of measure.
Yes.. all are useful objective engineering measures. There might be others too -- like how many validated and verified function-points one can produce per programming day.

I'm suspect preference isn't always objective though. Programmers can take pride in the thought and presentation of their code, so there may be an aesthetic component alongside the engineering measures. :)

I'm curious about what the aesthetic criteria may be.
dee-em
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11/12/2015 3:13:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/11/2015 11:49:06 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 11/11/2015 11:16:05 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/11/2015 7:03:49 PM, RuvDraba wrote:

'Elegance' is a term nearly every dedicated software developer uses. It's an intuitive notion that I think may be tied to the proceduralisation of ideas for data and process. But what are its key criteria?

I was referring to the design elegance of the language elements themselves. The choice of keywords in the grammar, the use of an actual assignment operator (rather than the ambiguous equals sign), the insistence on indentation and so on. My first educational exposure and then professional work was in assembly language and Fortran (IV, V and 77), so when I first saw the beautiful syntax of Pascal it was like a revelation to me. I thought, someone (Niklaus Wirth, "Algorithms + Data Structures = Programs") has really, really thought about this.

Pascal's syntax and procedural approach made it a great teaching language. I know scientists who liked to write in FORTRAN, but didn't find many students who preferred to learn programming in it. :)

Ah yes, how could I neglect to mention the strong focus on structured programming and strong typing. Pascal (with its roots in Algol) was innovate in so many ways from the clean, concise syntax of looping constructs and the case statement to the enclosure of blocks of code (body of a control structure) within begin ... end bookends.

I understand what you are saying but you asked for a favourite

Actually, the Original Post isn't mine. :)

You got me. However you were talking about the usability aspects of a programming language and I was addressing that. Visual Basic had all the things you mentioned but it was a dog in terms of aesthetics and performance. It was only there because Bill Gates had a fondness for Basic (understandably given his early background with DOS). Even Visual C wasn't much better. It was only after MicroSoft stole away the chief architect for Delphi from Borland that they developed a half-decent product which eventually became C#, I believe. The Evil Empire triumphed in the end. :-(

I just noted the word 'elegance' and asked what it meant. It sounds like you're talking about an aesthetic of communication from programmer to programmer. V3nesl's post following yours talks about efficiency of expression -- that's another way to look at it too.
RuvDraba
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11/12/2015 4:19:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 3:13:58 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/11/2015 11:49:06 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Pascal's syntax and procedural approach made it a great teaching language. I know scientists who liked to write in FORTRAN, but didn't find many students who preferred to learn programming in it. :)

Ah yes, how could I neglect to mention the strong focus on structured programming and strong typing. Pascal (with its roots in Algol) was innovate in so many ways from the clean, concise syntax of looping constructs and the case statement to the enclosure of blocks of code (body of a control structure) within begin ... end bookends.

Indeed, Dee. Pascal's type-control was very strong. The systems programmers I used to hang with (largely Unix guys) hated it for that. They wanted data to look like physical memory, rather than a logical abstraction. They wanted the ability to reference it in different ways, recast it, allocate and reallocate it dynamically. They wanted interrupt-driven processing and some implicit language nod to the physical instruction-set of the underlying platform to help with efficiency, load balancing, resource management and concurrency management.

Naturally, they were C guys -- when they weren't hand-coding assembler. :)

This perspective made them describe Pascal as 'less powerful' than C -- I think they really meant less adaptable for low-level systems/device programming (they didn't really think about business programming.)

But none of them ever accused C of being a more 'beautiful' programming language. :)
TBR
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11/12/2015 5:43:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 4:19:14 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 11/12/2015 3:13:58 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/11/2015 11:49:06 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Pascal's syntax and procedural approach made it a great teaching language. I know scientists who liked to write in FORTRAN, but didn't find many students who preferred to learn programming in it. :)

Ah yes, how could I neglect to mention the strong focus on structured programming and strong typing. Pascal (with its roots in Algol) was innovate in so many ways from the clean, concise syntax of looping constructs and the case statement to the enclosure of blocks of code (body of a control structure) within begin ... end bookends.

Indeed, Dee. Pascal's type-control was very strong. The systems programmers I used to hang with (largely Unix guys) hated it for that. They wanted data to look like physical memory, rather than a logical abstraction. They wanted the ability to reference it in different ways, recast it, allocate and reallocate it dynamically. They wanted interrupt-driven processing and some implicit language nod to the physical instruction-set of the underlying platform to help with efficiency, load balancing, resource management and concurrency management.

Naturally, they were C guys -- when they weren't hand-coding assembler. :)

This perspective made them describe Pascal as 'less powerful' than C -- I think they really meant less adaptable for low-level systems/device programming (they didn't really think about business programming.)

But none of them ever accused C of being a more 'beautiful' programming language. :)

Pascal was the first language that I had any actual instruction in. I liked it while learning it, but never used it for any actual project. Too bad really.
v3nesl
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11/13/2015 12:15:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 4:19:14 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
...

But none of them ever accused C of being a more 'beautiful' programming language. :)

I'd take C over Pascal, personally. And we forget - C influenced machine design - the concepts were developed in both the C language and machine design simultaneously. C, Unix, PDP-11, 68000, they were all cousins, you know? I remember going to Motorola seminars to get up to speed for our first 68000 design-in, and they were explaining how various instructions were designed specifically to support C (yeah, yeah, other high level languages too, but somehow the HLL always mentioned was C)

And btw, I guess hand machine coding pretty much died with RISC processors. A compiler is now responsible for keeping instruction queues filled and stuff like that, so hand coded stuff is actually worse than what C gives you.
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dee-em
Posts: 6,476
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11/13/2015 1:54:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/13/2015 12:15:05 AM, v3nesl wrote:
At 11/12/2015 4:19:14 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
...

But none of them ever accused C of being a more 'beautiful' programming language. :)

I'd take C over Pascal, personally. And we forget - C influenced machine design - the concepts were developed in both the C language and machine design simultaneously. C, Unix, PDP-11, 68000, they were all cousins, you know? I remember going to Motorola seminars to get up to speed for our first 68000 design-in, and they were explaining how various instructions were designed specifically to support C (yeah, yeah, other high level languages too, but somehow the HLL always mentioned was C)

It would be incorrect to say that C influenced the design of the PDP-11. DEC had their own proprietary operating systems and weren't much interested in Unix and C. In fact C had its origin in B (pretty much C without struct) and that language preceded the PDP-11.

https://www.bell-labs.com...

Thompson went a step further by inventing the ++ and -- operators, which increment or decrement; their prefix or postfix position determines whether the alteration occurs before or after noting the value of the operand. They were not in the earliest versions of B, but appeared along the way. People often guess that they were created to use the auto-increment and auto-decrement address modes provided by the DEC PDP-11 on which C and Unix first became popular. This is historically impossible, since there was no PDP-11 when B was developed. The PDP-7, however, did have a few `auto-increment' memory cells, with the property that an indirect memory reference through them incremented the cell. This feature probably suggested such operators to Thompson; the generalization to make them both prefix and postfix was his own. Indeed, the auto-increment cells were not used directly in implementation of the operators, and a stronger motivation for the innovation was probably his observation that the translation of ++x was smaller than that of x=x+1.

By 1970, the Unix project had shown enough promise that we were able to acquire the new DEC PDP-11. The processor was among the first of its line delivered by DEC, and three months passed before its disk arrived. Making B programs run on it using the threaded technique required only writing the code fragments for the operators, and a simple assembler which I coded in B; soon, dc became the first interesting program to be tested, before any operating system, on our PDP-11. Almost as rapidly, still waiting for the disk, Thompson recoded the Unix kernel and some basic commands in PDP-11 assembly language. Of the 24K bytes of memory on the machine, the earliest PDP-11 Unix system used 12K bytes for the operating system, a tiny space for user programs, and the remainder as a RAM disk. This version was only for testing, not for real work; the machine marked time by enumerating closed knight's tours on chess boards of various sizes. Once its disk appeared, we quickly migrated to it after transliterating assembly-language commands to the PDP-11 dialect, and porting those already in B.


And btw, I guess hand machine coding pretty much died with RISC processors. A compiler is now responsible for keeping instruction queues filled and stuff like that, so hand coded stuff is actually worse than what C gives you.
dee-em
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11/13/2015 4:30:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm an idiot. If B preceded the PDP-11 then it could have influenced its design. However, as I said, the work at Bell Labs on Unix and C was very far from the mainstream at that time. I don't believe it would have come to the attention of Digital Equipment engineers. I could be wrong though.
v3nesl
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11/13/2015 1:43:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/13/2015 4:30:13 AM, dee-em wrote:
I'm an idiot. If B preceded the PDP-11 then it could have influenced its design. However, as I said, the work at Bell Labs on Unix and C was very far from the mainstream at that time. I don't believe it would have come to the attention of Digital Equipment engineers. I could be wrong though.

Yeah, and I surely don't know enough detail to be trying to make any rigorous case here. What I was remembering was the way PDP-something popularized the idea that a data register could also be an address register, and how that's mirrored in C. The case for Motorola designing to C, that's a lot stronger. The 6809 was billed to us by Motorola FEs as a 6800 made to run C.
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