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Dinosaurs, did they go exstinct?

Maccabee
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11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
Sosoconfused
Posts: 237
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11/28/2015 3:24:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM, Maccabee wrote:
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?

We don't know....We don't know much of anything. We can say it's highly probable that they are extinct given the lack of evidence for their existence today; and the overwhelming evidence of their demise about 65 million years ago....
WorldSkeptic
Posts: 32
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11/28/2015 3:47:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Well, there are several pieces of evidence. First off, we have an INCREDIBLE amount of iridium on several rock layers that have been dated back to around the time dinosaurs went extinct. Iridium is brought in large amounts by asteroids/comets, and is very rare on Earth, so the only explanation for the sudden burst of these chemicals is via an external cause (in this case an asteroid)

Another piece of evidence is the following (and I quote from Carl Zimmer's "Evolution, The Triumph of a Theory"): "Meanwhile in Haiti other geologists found K-T (the point in between the Cretaceous and Tertiary periods) rocks containing globules of glass, which were predicted to have been formed in the impact, as molten rock hurled into the sky quickly cooled. Unlike the dust and vapor that the impact would have kicked up, these globules were too heavy to travel very far. The crater, researchers realized, must be within a few hundred miles of Haiti." A crater was soon found in Mexico that points in the direction of an asteroid having hit the surface.

Of course, a lack of fossils that can be dated back to a recent death is also evidence that dinosaurs no longer roam the Earth.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. - Christopher Hitchens
Ramshutu
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11/28/2015 9:44:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM, Maccabee wrote:
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?

Because a massive number of species, including dinosaurs, stopped being present in the fossil record dated to about 65mya.
dee-em
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11/29/2015 1:02:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM, Maccabee wrote:
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?

Have you seen any live dinosaurs around lately? Lol.
Envisage
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11/29/2015 1:07:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM, Maccabee wrote:
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?

Dinosaurs still exist today.

Those that do still exist are now called 'birds'.
Wylted
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11/29/2015 1:53:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 1:07:27 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM, Maccabee wrote:
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?

Dinosaurs still exist today.

Those that do still exist are now called 'birds'.

You're thinking of birds, according to young Earth Creationists, there are locations on this planet where dinosaurs still remain, almost undetected. Look at the Loch Ness Monster
Maccabee
Posts: 1,247
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11/29/2015 2:37:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/28/2015 3:24:46 AM, Sosoconfused wrote:
At 11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM, Maccabee wrote:
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?

We don't know....We don't know much of anything. We can say it's highly probable that they are extinct given the lack of evidence for their existence today; and the overwhelming evidence of their demise about 65 million years ago....

How do you know it was 65 million years ago?
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
Maccabee
Posts: 1,247
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11/29/2015 2:41:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/28/2015 3:47:03 AM, WorldSkeptic wrote:
Well, there are several pieces of evidence. First off, we have an INCREDIBLE amount of iridium on several rock layers that have been dated back to around the time dinosaurs went extinct. Iridium is brought in large amounts by asteroids/comets, and is very rare on Earth, so the only explanation for the sudden burst of these chemicals is via an external cause (in this case an asteroid)

Even evolutionist disagree on that theory. How did sunlight depended plants and animals survived?

Another piece of evidence is the following (and I quote from Carl Zimmer's "Evolution, The Triumph of a Theory"): "Meanwhile in Haiti other geologists found K-T (the point in between the Cretaceous and Tertiary periods) rocks containing globules of glass, which were predicted to have been formed in the impact, as molten rock hurled into the sky quickly cooled. Unlike the dust and vapor that the impact would have kicked up, these globules were too heavy to travel very far. The crater, researchers realized, must be within a few hundred miles of Haiti." A crater was soon found in Mexico that points in the direction of an asteroid having hit the surface.

That maybe but how do you know it wasn't a local meteor shower?

Of course, a lack of fossils that can be dated back to a recent death is also evidence that dinosaurs no longer roam the Earth.
How you know how old the rocks are?
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
Maccabee
Posts: 1,247
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11/29/2015 2:42:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/28/2015 9:44:56 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM, Maccabee wrote:
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?

Because a massive number of species, including dinosaurs, stopped being present in the fossil record dated to about 65mya.

How you know how old a layer is?
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
Maccabee
Posts: 1,247
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11/29/2015 2:45:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 1:02:50 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM, Maccabee wrote:
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?

Have you seen any live dinosaurs around lately? Lol.

I haven't but that like saying since I don't see zebras in my backyard therefore they don't exist and there nothing but horses painted with stripes. But on the flip side there have been sightings like the Loch Ness, the lake Champlain monster, the kangamato, etc.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
Maccabee
Posts: 1,247
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11/29/2015 2:46:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 1:07:27 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM, Maccabee wrote:
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?

Dinosaurs still exist today.

Those that do still exist are now called 'birds'.

You have to prove that birds came from dinosaurs to begin with.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
dee-em
Posts: 6,497
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11/29/2015 3:06:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 2:45:33 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 11/29/2015 1:02:50 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM, Maccabee wrote:
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?

Have you seen any live dinosaurs around lately? Lol.

I haven't but that like saying since I don't see zebras in my backyard therefore they don't exist and there nothing but horses painted with stripes.

Go to your local zoo, nitwit. You might find a zebra there. I'm fairly sure you won't find any dinosaurs. Lol.

But on the flip side there have been sightings like the Loch Ness, the lake Champlain monster, the kangamato, etc.

Sure there have. Just nothing that stands up to rigorous scientific investigation.

Here is a person who denies the science of paleontology but asks us to put credence on rumours and superstitions. What an ignoramus.
WorldSkeptic
Posts: 32
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11/29/2015 3:20:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
"Even evolutionist disagree on that theory. How did sunlight depended plants and animals survived?"

If you are referring to the consequential dust that would go into the atmosphere, I doubt that the WHOLE of it was covered, and the animals that did survive were very few indeed. It was a mass..."murder" I guess you could call it, but there's no reason to believe ALL animals and plants died. Those few that survived gave place to the species we have today.

"That maybe but how do you know it wasn't a local meteor shower?"
I don't know, it could have been a local meteor shower. How does that matter? The place and time that the meteor appears at line up with the predictions I mentioned.

"How you know how old the rocks are?"

Radiometric dating, which is the same method we use to calculate the age of organic organisms and the age of the Earth. Basically, atoms decay to other types of atoms at a predictable rate, which varies between atoms and which we can use to date things. An atoms takes some time to have 1/2 of it's original nucleus, this is what we call a "half-life". Carbon 14, for example, has a half-life of 5,000 years or so. Using this, we can mathematically pin-point how old the atoms in an organism are depending on the conditions of the atoms present.
http://www.asa3.org...
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. - Christopher Hitchens
Maccabee
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11/29/2015 4:40:59 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 3:06:03 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2015 2:45:33 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 11/29/2015 1:02:50 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM, Maccabee wrote:
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?

Have you seen any live dinosaurs around lately? Lol.

I haven't but that like saying since I don't see zebras in my backyard therefore they don't exist and there nothing but horses painted with stripes.

Go to your local zoo, nitwit. You might find a zebra there. I'm fairly sure you won't find any dinosaurs. Lol.

That doesn't prove anything. They could do a good paint job on the horses every morning. Of course that's being silly but that is a slim possibility.

But on the flip side there have been sightings like the Loch Ness, the lake Champlain monster, the kangamato, etc.

Sure there have. Just nothing that stands up to rigorous scientific investigation.

Really?

Here is a person who denies the science of paleontology but asks us to put credence on rumours and superstitions. What an ignoramus.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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11/29/2015 7:01:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 2:42:34 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 11/28/2015 9:44:56 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM, Maccabee wrote:
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?

Because a massive number of species, including dinosaurs, stopped being present in the fossil record dated to about 65mya.

How you know how old a layer is?

Multiple independent forms of dating, all cross referenced and concluding the same date.
Blade-of-Truth
Posts: 5,036
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11/29/2015 10:56:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM, Maccabee wrote:
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?

Lol, they obv still live on a chain of islands called Jurassic Park and Jurassic World... duh!! If you live in florida like me, you also see em in your rivers, lakes, and even swimming pools or roads. It's cray cray.
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dee-em
Posts: 6,497
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11/29/2015 1:32:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 4:40:59 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 11/29/2015 3:06:03 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/29/2015 2:45:33 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 11/29/2015 1:02:50 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM, Maccabee wrote:
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?

Have you seen any live dinosaurs around lately? Lol.

I haven't but that like saying since I don't see zebras in my backyard therefore they don't exist and there nothing but horses painted with stripes.

Go to your local zoo, nitwit. You might find a zebra there. I'm fairly sure you won't find any dinosaurs. Lol.

That doesn't prove anything. They could do a good paint job on the horses every morning. Of course that's being silly but that is a slim possibility.

Why are you posting this juvenile cr*p in the science forum?
tejretics
Posts: 6,094
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11/29/2015 1:36:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM, Maccabee wrote:
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?

Dinosaurs stopped being present in the fossil record dated from about 65.5 million years ago.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
WorldSkeptic
Posts: 32
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11/29/2015 2:33:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Somehow, someway, you got all the way from an extinction of the dinosaurs argument to stripe-painted horses. Honestly? Need I say that there is GENETICS to rely on to show what species an animal belongs to? And other methods to determine such an inquiry?

"Really?"
REALLY. If any of those things were actually within the realms of scientific research, we would have a a Loch Ness monster in a fish tank. A few supposed eyewitnesses and drawings are not enough; if they were, Elvis Presley is still alive.

Has the question been answered, or are there any other questions? (Make 'em rational please)
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. - Christopher Hitchens
DanneJeRusse
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11/29/2015 4:54:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 2:46:28 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 11/29/2015 1:07:27 AM, Envisage wrote:
At 11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM, Maccabee wrote:
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?

Dinosaurs still exist today.

Those that do still exist are now called 'birds'.

You have to prove that birds came from dinosaurs to begin with.

You really should change your signature line, you once again have not used any logic to research the facts and stats about birds evolving from dinosaurs.
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Maccabee
Posts: 1,247
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11/29/2015 6:50:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 3:20:54 AM, WorldSkeptic wrote:
"Even evolutionist disagree on that theory. How did sunlight depended plants and animals survived?"

If you are referring to the consequential dust that would go into the atmosphere, I doubt that the WHOLE of it was covered, and the animals that did survive were very few indeed. It was a mass..."murder" I guess you could call it, but there's no reason to believe ALL animals and plants died. Those few that survived gave place to the species we have today.

But it's only convenient that ALL of the dinosaurs died.

"That maybe but how do you know it wasn't a local meteor shower?"
I don't know, it could have been a local meteor shower. How does that matter? The place and time that the meteor appears at line up with the predictions I mentioned.

"How you know how old the rocks are?"

Radiometric dating, which is the same method we use to calculate the age of organic organisms and the age of the Earth. Basically, atoms decay to other types of atoms at a predictable rate, which varies between atoms and which we can use to date things. An atoms takes some time to have 1/2 of it's original nucleus, this is what we call a "half-life". Carbon 14, for example, has a half-life of 5,000 years or so. Using this, we can mathematically pin-point how old the atoms in an organism are depending on the conditions of the atoms present.
http://www.asa3.org...
First place how you know the dates they give are correct? They're have been many errors such as living snail shells were dated at 23 thousand years old, freshly killed seal was dated at 1300 years old if I remember correctly.

And second, the dating methods are based on the geologic column which doesn't exists as a whole.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
Maccabee
Posts: 1,247
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11/29/2015 6:51:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 7:01:50 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 11/29/2015 2:42:34 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 11/28/2015 9:44:56 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM, Maccabee wrote:
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?

Because a massive number of species, including dinosaurs, stopped being present in the fossil record dated to about 65mya.

How you know how old a layer is?

Multiple independent forms of dating, all cross referenced and concluding the same date.

They dated a moon rock seven different ways and got seven different answers.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
Maccabee
Posts: 1,247
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11/29/2015 6:55:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 2:33:06 PM, WorldSkeptic wrote:
Somehow, someway, you got all the way from an extinction of the dinosaurs argument to stripe-painted horses. Honestly? Need I say that there is GENETICS to rely on to show what species an animal belongs to? And other methods to determine such an inquiry?

"Really?"
REALLY. If any of those things were actually within the realms of scientific research, we would have a a Loch Ness monster in a fish tank. A few supposed eyewitnesses and drawings are not enough; if they were, Elvis Presley is still alive.

Science it's haven't combed through every inch of the earth simultaneously to prove or disprove the exstinction of dinosaurs.

Has the question been answered, or are there any other questions? (Make 'em rational please)
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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11/29/2015 7:11:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 6:51:51 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 11/29/2015 7:01:50 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 11/29/2015 2:42:34 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 11/28/2015 9:44:56 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM, Maccabee wrote:
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?

Because a massive number of species, including dinosaurs, stopped being present in the fossil record dated to about 65mya.

How you know how old a layer is?

Multiple independent forms of dating, all cross referenced and concluding the same date.

They dated a moon rock seven different ways and got seven different answers.

[Citation needed]

Nope. Not so much. And indeed, last time I checked there weren't any Dinosaur fossils in moon rock, nor are they a mere 65m years in comparison, nor are they subject to the same chemical processes, subjected to the same radiation topology, or environment. If you can explain why your gross oversimplification (which itself is wrong), and explain why it also applies to the multitude of dates applied to the earth, be my guest. Until then, neither is your interpretation valid, nor is it applicable to the extinction of the dinosaurs either.

Your problem here is that rocks that have been in the ground for hundreds of millions, or billions of years are subject to specific geological conditions, with each sample being chemically different. This isn't even considering possible in-situ or ex-situ contamination that can happen in many scenarios.

Every assumption, explanation, and detail generated with dates, and in some circumstances incongruent dates generally end up being well understood, well evidenced and well tested so that even if dates come up unexpected there is an exceptional amount of work that often goes on in explaining why, with almost all scenarios and situations where this occurs having an excellent, detailed, logical and well evidenced explanation.

Your issue, is that you seem to think that such a complex analysis of complex systems, should always give exact and unwavering dates; and if they don't, no matter how good the explanation and evidence of why they don't in a given scenario, it doesn't matter.

I know why this is, because you cannot argue against radiometric dating, and other mechanisms as a whole; so you ignore all of the complexity of it, and focus on the most superficial, distilled, summarization of it and spin it to agree with you.
Maccabee
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11/29/2015 8:20:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 7:11:47 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 11/29/2015 6:51:51 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 11/29/2015 7:01:50 AM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 11/29/2015 2:42:34 AM, Maccabee wrote:
At 11/28/2015 9:44:56 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 11/28/2015 12:16:53 AM, Maccabee wrote:
We hear all the time that dinosaurs went exstinct 65 million years ago but how do you know?

Because a massive number of species, including dinosaurs, stopped being present in the fossil record dated to about 65mya.

How you know how old a layer is?

Multiple independent forms of dating, all cross referenced and concluding the same date.

They dated a moon rock seven different ways and got seven different answers.

[Citation needed]

I couldn't find the article but where I heard it from Kent Hovind's seminar part 7 I believe and he documents the stuff he says. So if you see it, you can look up the source. In the mean time here is an article on rock dating. http://www.icr.org...

Nope. Not so much. And indeed, last time I checked there weren't any Dinosaur fossils in moon rock, nor are they a mere 65m years in comparison, nor are they subject to the same chemical processes, subjected to the same radiation topology, or environment. If you can explain why your gross oversimplification (which itself is wrong), and explain why it also applies to the multitude of dates applied to the earth, be my guest. Until then, neither is your interpretation valid, nor is it applicable to the extinction of the dinosaurs either.

I brought up the moon rocks as an example of how rock dating doesn't work to well.

Your problem here is that rocks that have been in the ground for hundreds of millions, or billions of years are subject to specific geological conditions, with each sample being chemically different. This isn't even considering possible in-situ or ex-situ contamination that can happen in many scenarios.

Exactly, how you know nothing contaminated the rocks? How you know the decay rate was the same when it started? How you know that there wasn't more of whatever you measuring in the environment then than it is now?

Every assumption, explanation, and detail generated with dates, and in some circumstances incongruent dates generally end up being well understood, well evidenced and well tested so that even if dates come up unexpected there is an exceptional amount of work that often goes on in explaining why, with almost all scenarios and situations where this occurs having an excellent, detailed, logical and well evidenced explanation.

The accepted dates are actually the selected dates. This is admitted by many scientists in this field.

Your issue, is that you seem to think that such a complex analysis of complex systems, should always give exact and unwavering dates; and if they don't, no matter how good the explanation and evidence of why they don't in a given scenario, it doesn't matter.

I know why this is, because you cannot argue against radiometric dating, and other mechanisms as a whole; so you ignore all of the complexity of it, and focus on the most superficial, distilled, summarization of it and spin it to agree with you.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
WorldSkeptic
Posts: 32
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11/29/2015 11:28:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The Creation Institute? Kent Hovind? Are you aware that Kent Hovind has not the slightest idea of how evolution works? How real science works? He believes Earth is 10,000 years old, that says something. Your link doesn't work by the way.

I very much doubt your moon rock example is even real, and giving links to creationist websites isn't evidence, seeing that these same websites use arguments that were debunked YEARS ago. Here is how we know whether it was contaminated and the initial conditions (sorry for all of those who already knew this much) with modern science:

"On of the great things about many forms of radiometric dating is that they are self-checking. That is, you can see if the sample comes from rocks that have been disturbed (or contaminated) or not just by looking at the results. Now, creationists will claim that scientists are just somehow assuming that if samples show an age that does not fit their preconceptions, the sample must be contaminated or leaky. This is false. To see why, we need to look deeper into radiometric dating methods. A very important tool in radiometric dating is the so called isochron diagram and it holds the key to refuting the central creationist claims about radiometric dating.

"One of the most beneficial things about it is that it can check itself for accuracy; the method tells you how well the rocks have been closed systems. An isochron diagram is obtained by looking at many minerals from the same rock or from rocks forming from the same parent mineral. Data is plotted on a simple two dimensional graph; the parent isotope on the x-axis and the daughter isotope on the y-axis. Both of these are divided or normalized by a stable isotope of the same elements as the daughter element. So on the x-axis, we have parent/(another stable isotope of the same element as the daughter) and on the y-axis we have daughter/(another stable isotope of the same element as the daughter).

"If the samples have been undisturbed closed systems since formation, the data will fall on the same line (the isochron from which the diagram is named). The slope of this line is a function of the age of the rock. If the rock is older, the slope is higher. The reason scientists normalize with another stable isotope of the same element as the daughter is because most chemical or physical processes that occurs normally in nature does not differentiate between different isotopes of the same element when the difference in mass is as small as it is between isotopes of the same element that is used in radiometric dating. This means that the while different rocks contain different absolute amounts of the two isotopes, the ratio is same. At the time of formation for a rock, the isotopes for an element are homogenized and so the composition of a certain isotope is the same in all the minerals in the rock. But what happens when the rocks have been disturbed?

If a rock is heated during its lifetime, the system gets disturbed and some of the parent and/or daughter isotopes may move in or out of the rock. If so, the data will not fall on an isochron line, but will be all over the place. This tells scientists that the sample has been disturbed and cannot be dated with this particular method. So far from rejecting samples because they do not fit a preconceived notion of what the age should be, scientists reject samples because there is ample evidence that it has been disturbed: the data points do not lie on the isochron lines.

Scientists do not assume that rocks have been closed systems; it is a well-supported conclusion from experiments. But what about assuming that initial amounts are known?

3. Radiometric dating and initial conditions

A second property of isochron diagrams is that it actually gives the initial amount of daughter isotope as a result of the method. It is just the y-intercept of the isochron line. At this intersect, the ratio of parent/(another stable isotope of the same element as the daughter) is by definition 0 and so no amount of the daughter here is produced by decay of the parent in the rock. The initial conditions are just read off the graph; it is not just assumed."
http://debunkingdenialism.com...
Another website that explains this: http://www.uwgb.edu...

"But it's only convenient that ALL of the dinosaurs died." They DIDN'T all die, some of them survived and gave place to the animals we know NOW. It was a massive extinction, but ALL animals WERE NOT wiped off.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. - Christopher Hitchens
Maccabee
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11/29/2015 11:38:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 11:28:54 PM, WorldSkeptic wrote:
The Creation Institute? Kent Hovind? Are you aware that Kent Hovind has not the slightest idea of how evolution works? How real science works? He believes Earth is 10,000 years old, that says something. Your link doesn't work by the way.

So? I believe the earth is young too. Besides, I think they know how evolution works, that's why they and I don't believe in it. And you're assuming that evolution is apart of science.

I very much doubt your moon rock example is even real, and giving links to creationist websites isn't evidence, seeing that these same websites use arguments that were debunked YEARS ago. Here is how we know whether it was contaminated and the initial conditions (sorry for all of those who already knew this much) with modern science:

So basically, unless it comes from someone who agrees with evolution it's not valid. Also I like to see a example of one debunked

"On of the great things about many forms of radiometric dating is that they are self-checking. That is, you can see if the sample comes from rocks that have been disturbed (or contaminated) or not just by looking at the results. Now, creationists will claim that scientists are just somehow assuming that if samples show an age that does not fit their preconceptions, the sample must be contaminated or leaky. This is false. To see why, we need to look deeper into radiometric dating methods. A very important tool in radiometric dating is the so called isochron diagram and it holds the key to refuting the central creationist claims about radiometric dating.

"One of the most beneficial things about it is that it can check itself for accuracy; the method tells you how well the rocks have been closed systems. An isochron diagram is obtained by looking at many minerals from the same rock or from rocks forming from the same parent mineral. Data is plotted on a simple two dimensional graph; the parent isotope on the x-axis and the daughter isotope on the y-axis. Both of these are divided or normalized by a stable isotope of the same elements as the daughter element. So on the x-axis, we have parent/(another stable isotope of the same element as the daughter) and on the y-axis we have daughter/(another stable isotope of the same element as the daughter).

"If the samples have been undisturbed closed systems since formation, the data will fall on the same line (the isochron from which the diagram is named). The slope of this line is a function of the age of the rock. If the rock is older, the slope is higher. The reason scientists normalize with another stable isotope of the same element as the daughter is because most chemical or physical processes that occurs normally in nature does not differentiate between different isotopes of the same element when the difference in mass is as small as it is between isotopes of the same element that is used in radiometric dating. This means that the while different rocks contain different absolute amounts of the two isotopes, the ratio is same. At the time of formation for a rock, the isotopes for an element are homogenized and so the composition of a certain isotope is the same in all the minerals in the rock. But what happens when the rocks have been disturbed?

If a rock is heated during its lifetime, the system gets disturbed and some of the parent and/or daughter isotopes may move in or out of the rock. If so, the data will not fall on an isochron line, but will be all over the place. This tells scientists that the sample has been disturbed and cannot be dated with this particular method. So far from rejecting samples because they do not fit a preconceived notion of what the age should be, scientists reject samples because there is ample evidence that it has been disturbed: the data points do not lie on the isochron lines.

Scientists do not assume that rocks have been closed systems; it is a well-supported conclusion from experiments. But what about assuming that initial amounts are known?

3. Radiometric dating and initial conditions

A second property of isochron diagrams is that it actually gives the initial amount of daughter isotope as a result of the method. It is just the y-intercept of the isochron line. At this intersect, the ratio of parent/(another stable isotope of the same element as the daughter) is by definition 0 and so no amount of the daughter here is produced by decay of the parent in the rock. The initial conditions are just read off the graph; it is not just assumed."
http://debunkingdenialism.com...
Another website that explains this: http://www.uwgb.edu...

"But it's only convenient that ALL of the dinosaurs died." They DIDN'T all die, some of them survived and gave place to the animals we know NOW. It was a massive extinction, but ALL animals WERE NOT wiped off.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
WorldSkeptic
Posts: 32
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11/29/2015 11:46:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
"And you're assuming that evolution is apart of science." Evolution IS a part of science! We figured it out using SCIENCE. We know how old the Earth is using SCIENCE like the one I just explained, which you didn't bother answering to at all.

"So basically, unless it comes from someone who agrees with evolution it's not valid" No, unless the person who does the claim uses valid reasoning and data it is not valid. Example of debunk: Dinosaurs didn't go extinct 65 million years ago, which is being debunked now.

Are you going to talk about any of what I posted or has the question been cleared?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. - Christopher Hitchens
Maccabee
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11/30/2015 1:17:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/29/2015 11:28:54 PM, WorldSkeptic wrote:


"On of the great things about many forms of radiometric dating is that they are self-checking. That is, you can see if the sample comes from rocks that have been disturbed (or contaminated) or not just by looking at the results. Now, creationists will claim that scientists are just somehow assuming that if samples show an age that does not fit their preconceptions, the sample must be contaminated or leaky. This is false. To see why, we need to look deeper into radiometric dating methods. A very important tool in radiometric dating is the so called isochron diagram and it holds the key to refuting the central creationist claims about radiometric dating.

I was needed for something so I didn't get time to answer the rest of your post. Ant form of dating assumes three things:

1. The decay rate was always the same.
2. The sample wasn't contaminated
3. The material they used to date the sample was the same amount when the sample died as it is now.

A good example of the dating method failing is the KBS tuff. They originally dated it to be I believe 30 million years old until they found a human skull in it. Once they came to the conclusion that the skull was not an intrusion into the layer they scaled back the dates and blamed all those who didn't catch the error.

"One of the most beneficial things about it is that it can check itself for accuracy; the method tells you how well the rocks have been closed systems. An isochron diagram is obtained by looking at many minerals from the same rock or from rocks forming from the same parent mineral. Data is plotted on a simple two dimensional graph; the parent isotope on the x-axis and the daughter isotope on the y-axis. Both of these are divided or normalized by a stable isotope of the same elements as the daughter element. So on the x-axis, we have parent/(another stable isotope of the same element as the daughter) and on the y-axis we have daughter/(another stable isotope of the same element as the daughter).

Again, wild dates are often obtained.

"If the samples have been undisturbed closed systems since formation, the data will fall on the same line (the isochron from which the diagram is named). The slope of this line is a function of the age of the rock. If the rock is older, the slope is higher. The reason scientists normalize with another stable isotope of the same element as the daughter is because most chemical or physical processes that occurs normally in nature does not differentiate between different isotopes of the same element when the difference in mass is as small as it is between isotopes of the same element that is used in radiometric dating. This means that the while different rocks contain different absolute amounts of the two isotopes, the ratio is same. At the time of formation for a rock, the isotopes for an element are homogenized and so the composition of a certain isotope is the same in all the minerals in the rock. But what happens when the rocks have been disturbed?

The KBS tuff was considered not contaminated until they found the skull. Plus, they don't use any form of dating when it comes to fossils. They date the fossils by the rock and date the rock by dating methods which is based on the dates they give to the rocks. Also, how did they know how old the layers are before any dating method was invented?

If a rock is heated during its lifetime, the system gets disturbed and some of the parent and/or daughter isotopes may move in or out of the rock. If so, the data will not fall on an isochron line, but will be all over the place. This tells scientists that the sample has been disturbed and cannot be dated with this particular method. So far from rejecting samples because they do not fit a preconceived notion of what the age should be, scientists reject samples because there is ample evidence that it has been disturbed: the data points do not lie on the isochron lines.

Scientists do not assume that rocks have been closed systems; it is a well-supported conclusion from experiments. But what about assuming that initial amounts are known?

3. Radiometric dating and initial conditions

A second property of isochron diagrams is that it actually gives the initial amount of daughter isotope as a result of the method. It is just the y-intercept of the isochron line. At this intersect, the ratio of parent/(another stable isotope of the same element as the daughter) is by definition 0 and so no amount of the daughter here is produced by decay of the parent in the rock. The initial conditions are just read off the graph; it is not just assumed."
http://debunkingdenialism.com...
Another website that explains this: http://www.uwgb.edu...

"But it's only convenient that ALL of the dinosaurs died." They DIDN'T all die, some of them survived and gave place to the animals we know NOW. It was a massive extinction, but ALL animals WERE NOT wiped off.

And how do they know that dinosaurs turned into anything? You can google the flaws in rock dating.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born