Total Posts:157|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Belief in random mutations

janesix
Posts: 3,465
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2015 7:50:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Why do you believe that random mutations(along with natural selection) drive evolution? It isn't proven and there is no evidence for it. It is only a belief, based on basically nothing.

The only thing random mutations have been shown to do is cause problems in an organism.
Maccabee
Posts: 1,242
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2015 8:50:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I totally agree.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
difference
Posts: 177
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2015 9:09:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 7:50:33 PM, janesix wrote:
Why do you believe that random mutations(along with natural selection) drive evolution? It isn't proven and there is no evidence for it. It is only a belief, based on basically nothing.

The only thing random mutations have been shown to do is cause problems in an organism.

Not all mutations are bad.
janesix
Posts: 3,465
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2015 9:20:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 9:09:26 PM, difference wrote:
At 12/1/2015 7:50:33 PM, janesix wrote:
Why do you believe that random mutations(along with natural selection) drive evolution? It isn't proven and there is no evidence for it. It is only a belief, based on basically nothing.

The only thing random mutations have been shown to do is cause problems in an organism.

Not all mutations are bad.

All random mutations induced in laboratory experiments have proven to be "bad".what can a fruitfly do with legs sticking out of its head?
Maccabee
Posts: 1,242
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2015 10:11:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 9:09:26 PM, difference wrote:
At 12/1/2015 7:50:33 PM, janesix wrote:
Why do you believe that random mutations(along with natural selection) drive evolution? It isn't proven and there is no evidence for it. It is only a belief, based on basically nothing.

The only thing random mutations have been shown to do is cause problems in an organism.

Not all mutations are bad.
They're either bad or neutral.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
difference
Posts: 177
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2015 10:13:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 9:20:19 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/1/2015 9:09:26 PM, difference wrote:
At 12/1/2015 7:50:33 PM, janesix wrote:
Why do you believe that random mutations(along with natural selection) drive evolution? It isn't proven and there is no evidence for it. It is only a belief, based on basically nothing.

The only thing random mutations have been shown to do is cause problems in an organism.

Not all mutations are bad.

All random mutations induced in laboratory experiments have proven to be "bad".what can a fruitfly do with legs sticking out of its head?

There are bad ones too. In nature, that fruitfly wouldn't live long enough to pass those genes.
janesix
Posts: 3,465
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2015 10:24:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 10:13:56 PM, difference wrote:
At 12/1/2015 9:20:19 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/1/2015 9:09:26 PM, difference wrote:
At 12/1/2015 7:50:33 PM, janesix wrote:
Why do you believe that random mutations(along with natural selection) drive evolution? It isn't proven and there is no evidence for it. It is only a belief, based on basically nothing.

The only thing random mutations have been shown to do is cause problems in an organism.

Not all mutations are bad.

All random mutations induced in laboratory experiments have proven to be "bad".what can a fruitfly do with legs sticking out of its head?

There are bad ones too. In nature, that fruitfly wouldn't live long enough to pass those genes.

What i'm trying to get at is you can't prove mutations that drive evolution are random. That is just a belief. Do you believe that,and if so, can you provide evidence?
difference
Posts: 177
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2015 10:48:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 10:24:00 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/1/2015 10:13:56 PM, difference wrote:
At 12/1/2015 9:20:19 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/1/2015 9:09:26 PM, difference wrote:
At 12/1/2015 7:50:33 PM, janesix wrote:
Why do you believe that random mutations(along with natural selection) drive evolution? It isn't proven and there is no evidence for it. It is only a belief, based on basically nothing.

The only thing random mutations have been shown to do is cause problems in an organism.

Not all mutations are bad.

All random mutations induced in laboratory experiments have proven to be "bad".what can a fruitfly do with legs sticking out of its head?

There are bad ones too. In nature, that fruitfly wouldn't live long enough to pass those genes.

What i'm trying to get at is you can't prove mutations that drive evolution are random. That is just a belief. Do you believe that,and if so, can you provide evidence?

A moment ago I believed they were random, but I don't have any evidence. Why couldn't random mutations drive evolution? The only mutations that would get passed on would be by organisms that successfully reproduce, whether they were random or not.
janesix
Posts: 3,465
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/1/2015 11:10:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 10:51:24 PM, difference wrote:
Never mind, I think I'm missing your point. You couldn't prove they were random.

Yay! Someone finally sees what im saying.
Fly
Posts: 2,045
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2015 5:53:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 7:50:33 PM, janesix wrote:
Why do you believe that random mutations(along with natural selection) drive evolution? It isn't proven and there is no evidence for it. It is only a belief, based on basically nothing.

The only thing random mutations have been shown to do is cause problems in an organism.

Your position involves circular reasoning:

You: "Random mutations are always detrimental."
Biologist: "No, here's an example of a beneficial mutation."
You: "If it is beneficial, then it could hardly be random!"

Also, your position fails to account for mutations which are simultaneously beneficial and detrimental depending upon the circumstance.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
toretorden
Posts: 35
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2015 1:02:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Thread starter doesn't seem to know evolutionary biology very well. Random mutations do not drive evolution. They just add more genetic diversity.

Natural and sexual selection are the main drivers of evolution. Then you have factors like genetic drift and migration.

For any one mutation to have a beneficial effect is rare, but because mutations happen all the time due to a number of different reasons, murations will occasionally occur that have a positive effect on fitness. It's like a lottery. The chance to win is small, but there are plenty of lottery winners in the world.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2015 7:20:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 9:20:19 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/1/2015 9:09:26 PM, difference wrote:
At 12/1/2015 7:50:33 PM, janesix wrote:
Why do you believe that random mutations(along with natural selection) drive evolution? It isn't proven and there is no evidence for it. It is only a belief, based on basically nothing.

The only thing random mutations have been shown to do is cause problems in an organism.

Not all mutations are bad.

All random mutations induced in laboratory experiments have proven to be "bad".what can a fruitfly do with legs sticking out of its head?

This simply isn't true. For instance, mutations have been induced in nematodes that extend their lifespan. http://www.genetics.org...

Also, in general, inducing mutations in organisms in the lab is usually intended to be detrimental. That's how a lot of gene functions were discovered. You randomly break genes in an organism and see what the result is. The result is some strong evidence regarding what the gene codes for. So naturally, lab mutations are going to appear to mostly be detrimental.

I don't see how that is evidence for mutations, in general, not being random. Before we discuss this any further, what do you mean by "random?"
janesix
Posts: 3,465
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2015 7:20:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 1:02:40 PM, toretorden wrote:
Thread starter doesn't seem to know evolutionary biology very well. Random mutations do not drive evolution. They just add more genetic diversity.

Natural and sexual selection are the main drivers of evolution. Then you have factors like genetic drift and migration.

For any one mutation to have a beneficial effect is rare, but because mutations happen all the time due to a number of different reasons, murations will occasionally occur that have a positive effect on fitness. It's like a lottery. The chance to win is small, but there are plenty of lottery winners in the world.

Mutations are the most important aspect of evolution. No mutations, no evolution.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2015 7:25:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 7:20:44 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/2/2015 1:02:40 PM, toretorden wrote:
Thread starter doesn't seem to know evolutionary biology very well. Random mutations do not drive evolution. They just add more genetic diversity.

Natural and sexual selection are the main drivers of evolution. Then you have factors like genetic drift and migration.

For any one mutation to have a beneficial effect is rare, but because mutations happen all the time due to a number of different reasons, murations will occasionally occur that have a positive effect on fitness. It's like a lottery. The chance to win is small, but there are plenty of lottery winners in the world.

Mutations are the most important aspect of evolution. No mutations, no evolution.

Mutations and selection are equally important. You don't have evolution without selection, either. Saying one is more important than the other is like arguing over whether the roof or walls is the most important part of a house.
toretorden
Posts: 35
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2015 8:05:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
^I appreciate the support, but actually you can have evolution without selection.

First, it may be wise to define evolution just a bit. When talking about population genetics (which lead to speciation), evolution is generally defined as a genetic change across generations, so if the next generation has a different genetic makeup than this generation, that is evolution.

Note that different genetic makeup doesn't have to mean different genes. It can also mean that the frequency of genes can be different. Simple example, let's say you have a human population with two different alleles (variations of a gene) coding for eye colour. One makes blue eyes, the other makes brown. In generation 1, the frequency of these alleles is 50/50. 50% has blue eyes, 50% has brown. But, blue eyes are considered more attractive and is favoured by sexual selection (which we might say is much stronger than natural selection in this case) and so the frequency of the blue eye allele has increased in generation 2 from 70% to a 30% brown. Over the future generations, the brown allele may become eradicated and the whole population is now blue-eyed.

Anyways, genetic changes across generations (evolution) can happen by mutation (ex. a gene mutates, causing one generation to have something that the previous didn't), genetic drift (generally random events that remove genes without being selective, typically accidents), migration (can add additional individuals to the generation/population and thus add new genes or alter overall allele frequencies) and then you have natural and sexual selection.

The word I reacted to is drive. To drive evolution means to push evolution in the direction of some specific trait(s). For example, in a cold environment, natural selection might drive animals to become more cold tolerant. Or, in the trite example above, sexual selection might drive a human population to become more blue-eyed.

Natural and sexual selection - and to some extent genetic drift - are things that drive natural selection and in so doing, they reduce genetic diversity. The reason is these processes reduce genetic diversity, either by selecting for certain genes and discarding others (natural / sexual) or by accident (genetic drift). Mutation is merely a process which adds genetic diversity. It can cause evolution, but doesn't drive it.

Hope that clarifies it.
toretorden
Posts: 35
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2015 8:08:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Great Darwin.

"Natural and sexual selection - and to some extent genetic drift - are things that drive natural selection and in so doing"

.. are things that drive evolution (not natural selection) is what I meant to write. I forget one can't edit posts here.
janesix
Posts: 3,465
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2015 8:10:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 7:20:23 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 12/1/2015 9:20:19 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/1/2015 9:09:26 PM, difference wrote:
At 12/1/2015 7:50:33 PM, janesix wrote:
Why do you believe that random mutations(along with natural selection) drive evolution? It isn't proven and there is no evidence for it. It is only a belief, based on basically nothing.

The only thing random mutations have been shown to do is cause problems in an organism.

Not all mutations are bad.

All random mutations induced in laboratory experiments have proven to be "bad".what can a fruitfly do with legs sticking out of its head?

This simply isn't true. For instance, mutations have been induced in nematodes that extend their lifespan. http://www.genetics.org...

Also, in general, inducing mutations in organisms in the lab is usually intended to be detrimental. That's how a lot of gene functions were discovered. You randomly break genes in an organism and see what the result is. The result is some strong evidence regarding what the gene codes for. So naturally, lab mutations are going to appear to mostly be detrimental.

I don't see how that is evidence for mutations, in general, not being random. Before we discuss this any further, what do you mean by "random?"

Random as in non directed. Accidental.
toretorden
Posts: 35
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2015 8:20:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
janesix, there have been studies examining evolution of new, beneficial mutations and resulting traits in the lab.

A somewhat recent study was conducted by Richard Lenski from Michigan State University who have studied evolution of E. coli across more than 59 000 generations. His bacteria evolved a novel way to make use of a new food source.

For a tabloid, easily readable source, see here f.ex Harvard Gazette : http://news.harvard.edu...
Toad-Uoff
Posts: 206
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2015 8:40:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 8:50:38 PM, Maccabee wrote:
I totally agree.

Hey Mac, :)

I noticed something in your taglines:

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?"

In California, that's EXACTLY what they think! Then, from that thinking, they have limited the sale of butane cigarette lighters to ADULTS 18 years-of-age or older.

I know you won't have a problem understanding the absurdity of that piece of state legislation and all of the CHAOS that has been stemming directly out of it. ;)

"Order, via Control, breeds Chaos but Control, via Order, isn't Control." - Old Toad Proverb (aka: Open System Law of Order)

Inappropriate government control has been breeding Chaos this entire time, then they blame the People, just like Parents blame their children for any mistake they make. ;)

"No child has ever made a mistake the parent didn't make first." - Old Toad Proverb

Ribbit :)
Toad-Uoff
Posts: 206
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2015 8:43:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/1/2015 7:50:33 PM, janesix wrote:
Why do you believe that random mutations(along with natural selection) drive evolution? It isn't proven and there is no evidence for it. It is only a belief, based on basically nothing.

The only thing random mutations have been shown to do is cause problems in an organism.

I fully dispel Randomitis in my 9 Deadly Sins thread:

http://www.debate.org...

Random/Randomatic is a Closed System concept and the Universe is an Open System, and in an Open System EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON, thus, NOTHING IS RANDOM.

Ribbit :)
janesix
Posts: 3,465
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2015 9:04:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 8:43:28 PM, Toad-Uoff wrote:
At 12/1/2015 7:50:33 PM, janesix wrote:
Why do you believe that random mutations(along with natural selection) drive evolution? It isn't proven and there is no evidence for it. It is only a belief, based on basically nothing.

The only thing random mutations have been shown to do is cause problems in an organism.

I fully dispel Randomitis in my 9 Deadly Sins thread:

http://www.debate.org...

Random/Randomatic is a Closed System concept and the Universe is an Open System, and in an Open System EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON, thus, NOTHING IS RANDOM.

Ribbit :)

I tend to agree with that.
Toad-Uoff
Posts: 206
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/2/2015 9:16:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 9:04:26 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/2/2015 8:43:28 PM, Toad-Uoff wrote:
At 12/1/2015 7:50:33 PM, janesix wrote:
Why do you believe that random mutations(along with natural selection) drive evolution? It isn't proven and there is no evidence for it. It is only a belief, based on basically nothing.

The only thing random mutations have been shown to do is cause problems in an organism.

I fully dispel Randomitis in my 9 Deadly Sins thread:

http://www.debate.org...

Random/Randomatic is a Closed System concept and the Universe is an Open System, and in an Open System EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON, thus, NOTHING IS RANDOM.

Ribbit :)

I tend to agree with that.

All you are agreeing to is what's known as Synchropy/Synchronicity. ;)

Synchropy = Anti-Entropy of an Open System

From that, the manifestation of Synchropy is what's known as Synchronicity. ;)

"What goes around, comes around." - Open System Law of Synchronicity

Everything that you do, say, or think, WILL affect the system, so be careful with all that you do. ;)

Ribbit :)
Maccabee
Posts: 1,242
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/3/2015 12:32:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 8:40:14 PM, Toad-Uoff wrote:
At 12/1/2015 8:50:38 PM, Maccabee wrote:
I totally agree.

Hey Mac, :)

I noticed something in your taglines:

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?"

In California, that's EXACTLY what they think! Then, from that thinking, they have limited the sale of butane cigarette lighters to ADULTS 18 years-of-age or older.

I know you won't have a problem understanding the absurdity of that piece of state legislation and all of the CHAOS that has been stemming directly out of it. ;)

"Order, via Control, breeds Chaos but Control, via Order, isn't Control." - Old Toad Proverb (aka: Open System Law of Order)

Inappropriate government control has been breeding Chaos this entire time, then they blame the People, just like Parents blame their children for any mistake they make. ;)

"No child has ever made a mistake the parent didn't make first." - Old Toad Proverb

Ribbit :)

Thanks :)
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
Maccabee
Posts: 1,242
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/3/2015 12:36:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 5:53:40 AM, Fly wrote:
At 12/1/2015 7:50:33 PM, janesix wrote:
Why do you believe that random mutations(along with natural selection) drive evolution? It isn't proven and there is no evidence for it. It is only a belief, based on basically nothing.

The only thing random mutations have been shown to do is cause problems in an organism.

Your position involves circular reasoning:

You: "Random mutations are always detrimental."
Biologist: "No, here's an example of a beneficial mutation."
You: "If it is beneficial, then it could hardly be random!"

Also, your position fails to account for mutations which are simultaneously beneficial and detrimental depending upon the circumstance.
If you can show a benifial mutation that added new information then you prove your point.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
Maccabee
Posts: 1,242
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/3/2015 12:38:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 1:02:40 PM, toretorden wrote:
Thread starter doesn't seem to know evolutionary biology very well. Random mutations do not drive evolution. They just add more genetic diversity.

Natural and sexual selection are the main drivers of evolution. Then you have factors like genetic drift and migration.

For any one mutation to have a beneficial effect is rare, but because mutations happen all the time due to a number of different reasons, murations will occasionally occur that have a positive effect on fitness. It's like a lottery. The chance to win is small, but there are plenty of lottery winners in the world.
Show me a benifial mutation.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
Maccabee
Posts: 1,242
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/3/2015 12:41:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 1:35:03 AM, SM2 wrote:
Please educate yourself.

http://rationalwiki.org...

I bet all of those mutations are examples of either a loss or scrambling of existing information. None of them produce anything like a wing.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
Maccabee
Posts: 1,242
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/3/2015 12:44:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 7:20:23 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 12/1/2015 9:20:19 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/1/2015 9:09:26 PM, difference wrote:
At 12/1/2015 7:50:33 PM, janesix wrote:
Why do you believe that random mutations(along with natural selection) drive evolution? It isn't proven and there is no evidence for it. It is only a belief, based on basically nothing.

The only thing random mutations have been shown to do is cause problems in an organism.

Not all mutations are bad.

All random mutations induced in laboratory experiments have proven to be "bad".what can a fruitfly do with legs sticking out of its head?

This simply isn't true. For instance, mutations have been induced in nematodes that extend their lifespan. http://www.genetics.org...

Also, in general, inducing mutations in organisms in the lab is usually intended to be detrimental. That's how a lot of gene functions were discovered. You randomly break genes in an organism and see what the result is. The result is some strong evidence regarding what the gene codes for. So naturally, lab mutations are going to appear to mostly be detrimental.

I don't see how that is evidence for mutations, in general, not being random. Before we discuss this any further, what do you mean by "random?"

The link used a lot of jargon. Do you think you can break it down for laypeople like me?
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
Maccabee
Posts: 1,242
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
12/3/2015 12:50:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 12/2/2015 8:20:18 PM, toretorden wrote:
janesix, there have been studies examining evolution of new, beneficial mutations and resulting traits in the lab.

A somewhat recent study was conducted by Richard Lenski from Michigan State University who have studied evolution of E. coli across more than 59 000 generations. His bacteria evolved a novel way to make use of a new food source.

For a tabloid, easily readable source, see here f.ex Harvard Gazette : http://news.harvard.edu...
He started with bacteria and ended up with bacteria. He only double the gene and probably inhanced a gene that was already in the gene code.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born