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# What made the Big Bang?

 Posts: 4,157 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AMPosted: 1 year agoWhat do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.
 Posts: 1,332 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/15/2015 6:41:50 PMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universesSo you got to lose many to create one?2. The universe is a simulationAnd who's doing the simulation? If anything this theory proves a creator all the more.3. God??Not according to the Bible.4. Everything came out of nowhere?I'm grasping for words to describe how dumb that is. That violates the first law of thermodynamics.What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.I totally agree.Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue Evolutionism is a religion, not science When seconds count, the police are just minutes away. "If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys "If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B "Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
 Posts: 546 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/15/2015 7:32:16 PMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.You forgot the no-boundary hypothesis.
 Posts: 4,050 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.https://en.wikipedia.org...The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.You are what you do when it counts ...and it always counts "Your mother still exist and created you, despite her nasty spaghetti" Fatihah
 Posts: 1,332 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.https://en.wikipedia.org...The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue Evolutionism is a religion, not science When seconds count, the police are just minutes away. "If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys "If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B "Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
 Posts: 4,050 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/15/2015 10:08:29 PMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.https://en.wikipedia.org...The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.So they say. I see plenty of things tend towards order.You are what you do when it counts ...and it always counts "Your mother still exist and created you, despite her nasty spaghetti" Fatihah
 Posts: 1,332 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/15/2015 10:23:36 PMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/15/2015 10:08:29 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.https://en.wikipedia.org...The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.So they say. I see plenty of things tend towards order.Like what?Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue Evolutionism is a religion, not science When seconds count, the police are just minutes away. "If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys "If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B "Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
 Posts: 4,050 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/15/2015 10:26:26 PMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/15/2015 10:23:36 PM, Maccabee wrote:At 12/15/2015 10:08:29 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.https://en.wikipedia.org...The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.So they say. I see plenty of things tend towards order.Like what?Snowflakes. Chemistry. Life. Crystals. Galaxies.You are what you do when it counts ...and it always counts "Your mother still exist and created you, despite her nasty spaghetti" Fatihah
 Posts: 1,332 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/15/2015 10:30:24 PMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/15/2015 10:26:26 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 10:23:36 PM, Maccabee wrote:At 12/15/2015 10:08:29 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.https://en.wikipedia.org...The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.So they say. I see plenty of things tend towards order.Like what?Snowflakes. Chemistry. Life. Crystals. Galaxies.Snowflakes and other crystals form due to their molecular makeup, they're not jumbled up pieces that make beautiful shapes. As for chemistry, life, and galaxies you'll have to explain in more detail. Keep in mind that you are arguing against a well established law to prove the Big Bang.Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue Evolutionism is a religion, not science When seconds count, the police are just minutes away. "If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys "If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B "Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
 Posts: 4,050 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/15/2015 10:35:26 PMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/15/2015 10:30:24 PM, Maccabee wrote:At 12/15/2015 10:26:26 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 10:23:36 PM, Maccabee wrote:At 12/15/2015 10:08:29 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.https://en.wikipedia.org...The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.So they say. I see plenty of things tend towards order.Like what?Snowflakes. Chemistry. Life. Crystals. Galaxies.Snowflakes and other crystals form due to their molecular makeup, they're not jumbled up pieces that make beautiful shapes. As for chemistry, life, and galaxies you'll have to explain in more detail. Keep in mind that you are arguing against a well established law to prove the Big Bang.I dont think there was a big bang.You are what you do when it counts ...and it always counts "Your mother still exist and created you, despite her nasty spaghetti" Fatihah
 Posts: 4,265 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/15/2015 10:36:20 PMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.https://en.wikipedia.org...The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.With respect to the arrow of time....No time = no arrow of time for which order to increase in.
 Posts: 1,332 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/15/2015 11:19:05 PMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/15/2015 10:36:20 PM, Ramshutu wrote:At 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.https://en.wikipedia.org...The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.With respect to the arrow of time....No time = no arrow of time for which order to increase in.But without time you have nothing. If you have matter and space then when would you put it?Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue Evolutionism is a religion, not science When seconds count, the police are just minutes away. "If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys "If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B "Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
 Posts: 546 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/16/2015 12:16:00 AMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/15/2015 11:19:05 PM, Maccabee wrote:At 12/15/2015 10:36:20 PM, Ramshutu wrote:At 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.https://en.wikipedia.org...The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.With respect to the arrow of time....No time = no arrow of time for which order to increase in.But without time you have nothing. If you have matter and space then when would you put it?"Time" is really a fourth dimension of space. For some reason, we perceive it as one-way. If you abandon that assumption, which you'll have to if time gets all curled up (like at the moment of the Big Bang), then cause-and-effect becomes more of a space-like relationship. "Past" and "future" become like "left" and "right".Perhaps a simpler analogy would be the surface of the Earth. Going back in time is like moving north. When you reach the north pole, your compass will get confused and spin around in a circle; your time machine will probably do the same thing when you reach the Big Bang (assuming it isn't destroyed first).
 Posts: 1,038 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/18/2015 10:34:15 AMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/16/2015 12:16:00 AM, SM2 wrote:At 12/15/2015 11:19:05 PM, Maccabee wrote:At 12/15/2015 10:36:20 PM, Ramshutu wrote:At 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.https://en.wikipedia.org...The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.With respect to the arrow of time....No time = no arrow of time for which order to increase in.But without time you have nothing. If you have matter and space then when would you put it?Time is not a dimension, it doesn't even exist. We create the illusion of time by assigning seconds, minutes, hours and days to time keeping devices of our choosing. Solar for days, Indian drumming for seconds, stomach growling for 6AM, etc."Time" is really a fourth dimension of space. For some reason, we perceive it as one-way. If you abandon that assumption, which you'll have to if time gets all curled up (like at the moment of the Big Bang), then cause-and-effect becomes more of a space-like relationship. "Past" and "future" become like "left" and "right".No, .. time isn't one way, look, we can count down time; T-10, 9, 8, 7, 6, .. I can make time go diagonal, 1,1 .. 2,2 .. 3,3 .. 4,4 now watch, I can make it go the other way; -1,-1 .. -2,-2 .. -3,-3 or I can just eliminate time and keep track of events with my mind, .. all at once, or individually if I choose.Perhaps a simpler analogy would be the surface of the Earth. Going back in time is like moving north. When you reach the north pole, your compass will get confused and spin around in a circle; your time machine will probably do the same thing when you reach the Big Bang (assuming it isn't destroyed first). :Big-bang, .. lol. I could just see the dumb-donkey looks on these Sci-Fientists faces at the LHC after starting it up again, .. thinking they will create a Big-bang by colliding basic-particles into each other (yeah right lol) revealing the magical particle that created the universe that is in the religious BB-story. Only nothing happened (Duh!).I mean I love science fiction, but I had no idea that intelligent schooled people would actually believe in this Pixy-dust, sci-fi fantasy?? When I read the breaking news of the LHC being "within Days of creating a Parallel Universe!", I was stunned. I said to myself; this is not good. So what next, .. I mean they spent billions, they have to come up with something right? So I guess they'll just blow up a city or something, .. or explode a bunch of nukes down a fault line, and create some huge earthquakes, and claim it is the Parallel Universe, .. a Black hole, .. or a Worm hole they created in the 666 CERN LHC that's causing it, just to save-face.I love how they Have their sci-fi writer puppet Steven Hawking 'Warn' of the potential dangers in creating a big bang, .. lol. That's like putting Warning labels on bottles of make-up sparkles: "Warning, .. may cause children to fly!"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root. - Henry David Thoreau
 Posts: 779 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/18/2015 11:21:07 AMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.https://en.wikipedia.org...The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.The concept of anything existing for an infinite time (having a duration of actual infinity in the temporal dimension) leads to absurdities, and so itself must be absurd.This is because right now I can make the statement:A: 'The universe is infinity years old'If the universe was eternal, then A would be true.This time next year (18th December 2016), I can also make this statement:B: 'The universe is infinity + 1 years old'But if A is true, then B is true as well. One year has passed between the statements A and B, therefore the universe is one year older at B than at A. If the universe is infinity years old at A, it logically follows that it is infinity + 1 years old at B.However, infinity + 1 is a mathematical (and therefore logical) impossibility. infinity is the highest possible number by definition. Hence it is logically impossible for infinity + 1 to exist.B entails that infinity + 1 exists. Since we know it cannot exist, we know that B is false. If B is false, then A is also false.If A is false, then the universe is not eternal.________________________________________________________________There is another proof that the universe cannot be eternal:Let us look at A again:A: 'The universe is infinity years old'If this is to be true, then C must also be true:C: 'The universe is infinity seconds old'Which entails D:D: 'infinity years = infinity seconds'Divide both sides by infinity:E: '1 year = 1 second'Given that one year is equal to 31,557,600 seconds:F: '31,557600 = 1'Which is false.Reductio ad absurdum, A is false.
 Posts: 6,339 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/18/2015 4:37:54 PMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/15/2015 6:41:50 PM, Maccabee wrote:At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universesSo you got to lose many to create one?2. The universe is a simulationAnd who's doing the simulation? If anything this theory proves a creator all the more.3. God??Not according to the Bible.4. Everything came out of nowhere?I'm grasping for words to describe how dumb that is. That violates the first law of thermodynamics.The laws of thermodynamics only apply within thermodynamic systems -- outside the universe, they don't apply.What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.I totally agree."Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass http://gotejas.com...
 Posts: 9,765 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/18/2015 5:01:24 PMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Why does the Big Bang need a cause, anyway? Or at least one that we can comprehend. We're creatures that live and think inside of the universe, and for us to think outside of it is asking a blind person to describe colour; there is no frame of reference for us to understand what caused the universe to go boom, if "cause" actually means anything outside of our universe where presumably this sort of thing happened - or maybe it didn't happen there, or has happened yet, or will happen at all.Conclusion: this stuff is kind of mind-bending, but keep in mind the point is not necessarily what *caused* the Big Bang, but the fact that we know such a thing did actually occur - we can see its consequences in our skies, we can see the primordial radiation leftover from the expansion and cooling of the universe, and so on. This stuff isn't made up out of nowhere, and we basically understand everything happening after - but before? Again, no frame of reference. Maybe Jesus ate too many chili burritos, idk.
 Posts: 546 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/18/2015 10:13:39 PMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/18/2015 10:34:15 AM, Evidence wrote:At 12/16/2015 12:16:00 AM, SM2 wrote:At 12/15/2015 11:19:05 PM, Maccabee wrote:At 12/15/2015 10:36:20 PM, Ramshutu wrote:At 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.https://en.wikipedia.org...The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.With respect to the arrow of time....No time = no arrow of time for which order to increase in.But without time you have nothing. If you have matter and space then when would you put it?Time is not a dimension, it doesn't even exist. We create the illusion of time by assigning seconds, minutes, hours and days to time keeping devices of our choosing. Solar for days, Indian drumming for seconds, stomach growling for 6AM, etc."Time" is really a fourth dimension of space. For some reason, we perceive it as one-way. If you abandon that assumption, which you'll have to if time gets all curled up (like at the moment of the Big Bang), then cause-and-effect becomes more of a space-like relationship. "Past" and "future" become like "left" and "right".No, .. time isn't one way, look, we can count down time; T-10, 9, 8, 7, 6, .. I can make time go diagonal, 1,1 .. 2,2 .. 3,3 .. 4,4 now watch, I can make it go the other way; -1,-1 .. -2,-2 .. -3,-3 or I can just eliminate time and keep track of events with my mind, .. all at once, or individually if I choose.Perhaps a simpler analogy would be the surface of the Earth. Going back in time is like moving north. When you reach the north pole, your compass will get confused and spin around in a circle; your time machine will probably do the same thing when you reach the Big Bang (assuming it isn't destroyed first). :Big-bang, .. lol. I could just see the dumb-donkey looks on these Sci-Fientists faces at the LHC after starting it up again, .. thinking they will create a Big-bang by colliding basic-particles into each other (yeah right lol) revealing the magical particle that created the universe that is in the religious BB-story. Only nothing happened (Duh!).I mean I love science fiction, but I had no idea that intelligent schooled people would actually believe in this Pixy-dust, sci-fi fantasy?? When I read the breaking news of the LHC being "within Days of creating a Parallel Universe!", I was stunned. I said to myself; this is not good. So what next, .. I mean they spent billions, they have to come up with something right? So I guess they'll just blow up a city or something, .. or explode a bunch of nukes down a fault line, and create some huge earthquakes, and claim it is the Parallel Universe, .. a Black hole, .. or a Worm hole they created in the 666 CERN LHC that's causing it, just to save-face.I love how they Have their sci-fi writer puppet Steven Hawking 'Warn' of the potential dangers in creating a big bang, .. lol. That's like putting Warning labels on bottles of make-up sparkles: "Warning, .. may cause children to fly!"I hope you don't expect a serious response.
 Posts: 6,339 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/27/2015 8:50:58 AMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/18/2015 11:21:07 AM, Philocat wrote:At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.https://en.wikipedia.org...The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.The concept of anything existing for an infinite time (having a duration of actual infinity in the temporal dimension) leads to absurdities, and so itself must be absurd.This is because right now I can make the statement:A: 'The universe is infinity years old'If the universe was eternal, then A would be true.This time next year (18th December 2016), I can also make this statement:B: 'The universe is infinity + 1 years old'But if A is true, then B is true as well. One year has passed between the statements A and B, therefore the universe is one year older at B than at A. If the universe is infinity years old at A, it logically follows that it is infinity + 1 years old at B.However, infinity + 1 is a mathematical (and therefore logical) impossibility. infinity is the highest possible number by definition. Hence it is logically impossible for infinity + 1 to exist.B entails that infinity + 1 exists. Since we know it cannot exist, we know that B is false. If B is false, then A is also false.If A is false, then the universe is not eternal.This argument fails because all it shows is that infinities have odd properties. Infinity doesn't share properties with other numbers, seeing as infinity + 1 = infinity. Adding to and subtracting from infinity doesn't change the value of infinity, since infinity's value does not have similar properties to the numerical value of standard numbers (read Martin's Atheism: A Philosophical Justification).________________________________________________________________There is another proof that the universe cannot be eternal:Let us look at A again:A: 'The universe is infinity years old'If this is to be true, then C must also be true:C: 'The universe is infinity seconds old'Which entails D:D: 'infinity years = infinity seconds'Divide both sides by infinity:E: '1 year = 1 second'Given that one year is equal to 31,557,600 seconds:F: '31,557600 = 1'Which is false.Reductio ad absurdum, A is false.You can't "divide by infinity." Division by infinity is incoherent, since infinity is not a "real number." Numerical operations apply only to ordinary numbers. Infinity isn't as straightforward as another number. Infinity divided by infinity does not equal one.[Sidenote: I'm not arguing that infinities are possible, nor do I hold that the universe had an infinite past; I'm merely pointing out the flaws in this argument.]"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass http://gotejas.com...
 Posts: 2,723 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/27/2015 9:58:39 AMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/18/2015 11:21:07 AM, Philocat wrote:At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.https://en.wikipedia.org...The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.The concept of anything existing for an infinite time (having a duration of actual infinity in the temporal dimension) leads to absurdities, and so itself must be absurd.This is because right now I can make the statement:A: 'The universe is infinity years old'If the universe was eternal, then A would be true.This time next year (18th December 2016), I can also make this statement:B: 'The universe is infinity + 1 years old'But if A is true, then B is true as well. One year has passed between the statements A and B, therefore the universe is one year older at B than at A. If the universe is infinity years old at A, it logically follows that it is infinity + 1 years old at B.However, infinity + 1 is a mathematical (and therefore logical) impossibility. infinity is the highest possible number by definition. Hence it is logically impossible for infinity + 1 to exist.You can't really say that. Infinity itself is a mathematical impossibility. Infinity is not the highest possible number on the real number line. We can only say that the real number line has no maximum.If you mean $\lim_{x \to \infty} f(x) = \infty$, note that this entails $\lim_{x \to \infty} (f(x) + 1) = \infty$ (since the 1 is negligible as $x \to \infty$).(Sorry if you don't understand this - I'm typing in LaTeX for convenience. If you don't understand LaTeX, there's a handy interpreter at http://texclip.marutank.net.... :) )B entails that infinity + 1 exists. Since we know it cannot exist, we know that B is false. If B is false, then A is also false.If A is false, then the universe is not eternal.________________________________________________________________There is another proof that the universe cannot be eternal:Let us look at A again:A: 'The universe is infinity years old'If this is to be true, then C must also be true:C: 'The universe is infinity seconds old'Which entails D:D: 'infinity years = infinity seconds'Divide both sides by infinity:E: '1 year = 1 second'$\frac{\infty}{\infty}$ is an indeterminate form. You can't perform such an operation. If you want to solve for $\lim_{x \to \infty} \frac{g(x)}{h(x)}$ where $\lim_{x \to \infty} g(x)$ and $\lim_{x \to \infty} h(x)$ are both $\infty$, you need to use l'Hopital's rule, i.e. find $\lim_{x \to \infty} \frac{g'(x)}{h'(x)}$.Given that one year is equal to 31,557,600 seconds:F: '31,557600 = 1'Which is false.Reductio ad absurdum, A is false.The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor Don't be a stat cynic: http://www.debate.org... Response to conservative views on deforestation: http://www.debate.org... Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
 Posts: 779 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/27/2015 12:30:28 PMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/27/2015 8:50:58 AM, tejretics wrote:At 12/18/2015 11:21:07 AM, Philocat wrote:At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.https://en.wikipedia.org...The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.The concept of anything existing for an infinite time (having a duration of actual infinity in the temporal dimension) leads to absurdities, and so itself must be absurd.This is because right now I can make the statement:A: 'The universe is infinity years old'If the universe was eternal, then A would be true.This time next year (18th December 2016), I can also make this statement:B: 'The universe is infinity + 1 years old'But if A is true, then B is true as well. One year has passed between the statements A and B, therefore the universe is one year older at B than at A. If the universe is infinity years old at A, it logically follows that it is infinity + 1 years old at B.However, infinity + 1 is a mathematical (and therefore logical) impossibility. infinity is the highest possible number by definition. Hence it is logically impossible for infinity + 1 to exist.B entails that infinity + 1 exists. Since we know it cannot exist, we know that B is false. If B is false, then A is also false.If A is false, then the universe is not eternal.This argument fails because all it shows is that infinities have odd properties. Infinity doesn't share properties with other numbers, seeing as infinity + 1 = infinity. Adding to and subtracting from infinity doesn't change the value of infinity, since infinity's value does not have similar properties to the numerical value of standard numbers (read Martin's Atheism: A Philosophical Justification).Saying that infinity has 'odd properties' is a vague hand-wave in trying to dismiss the impossibility of an actual infinity.It's like if someone casually dismissed the omnipotence paradox by saying that omnipotence has 'odd properties'.Mathematical rules are unbreakable, so if something breaks these rules then it cannot exist. Therefore an actual infinity cannot exist.Infinity is just a concept. Some mathematician saw the need to ascribe a name to the idea of a highest possible number because there are some calculations that require this function. However, a 'highest possible number' cannot actually exist because we can always add 1. It is impossible to ever reach a number that cannot be exceeded (which itself is actual infinity).________________________________________________________________There is another proof that the universe cannot be eternal:Let us look at A again:A: 'The universe is infinity years old'If this is to be true, then C must also be true:C: 'The universe is infinity seconds old'Which entails D:D: 'infinity years = infinity seconds'Divide both sides by infinity:E: '1 year = 1 second'Given that one year is equal to 31,557,600 seconds:F: '31,557600 = 1'Which is false.Reductio ad absurdum, A is false.You can't "divide by infinity." Division by infinity is incoherent, since infinity is not a "real number." Numerical operations apply only to ordinary numbers. Infinity isn't as straightforward as another number. Infinity divided by infinity does not equal one.If it is not a real number, then it isn't real. In other words, it is not actual.Ergo, actual infinity does not exist.[Sidenote: I'm not arguing that infinities are possible, nor do I hold that the universe had an infinite past; I'm merely pointing out the flaws in this argument.]It's a reductio ad absurdum; the existence of the flaws point to the impossibility of an actual infinity.
 Posts: 779 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/27/2015 12:35:19 PMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/27/2015 9:58:39 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:At 12/18/2015 11:21:07 AM, Philocat wrote:At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.https://en.wikipedia.org...The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.The concept of anything existing for an infinite time (having a duration of actual infinity in the temporal dimension) leads to absurdities, and so itself must be absurd.This is because right now I can make the statement:A: 'The universe is infinity years old'If the universe was eternal, then A would be true.This time next year (18th December 2016), I can also make this statement:B: 'The universe is infinity + 1 years old'But if A is true, then B is true as well. One year has passed between the statements A and B, therefore the universe is one year older at B than at A. If the universe is infinity years old at A, it logically follows that it is infinity + 1 years old at B.However, infinity + 1 is a mathematical (and therefore logical) impossibility. infinity is the highest possible number by definition. Hence it is logically impossible for infinity + 1 to exist.You can't really say that. Infinity itself is a mathematical impossibility. Infinity is not the highest possible number on the real number line. We can only say that the real number line has no maximum.I agree, the real number line has no maximum. But to say that an actual infinity exists presupposes that the real number line does have a maximum, and that actual infinity is the maximum. But since a maximum cannot actually exist, an actual infinity cannot exist.If you mean $\lim_{x \to \infty} f(x) = \infty$, note that this entails $\lim_{x \to \infty} (f(x) + 1) = \infty$ (since the 1 is negligible as $x \to \infty$).(Sorry if you don't understand this - I'm typing in LaTeX for convenience. If you don't understand LaTeX, there's a handy interpreter at http://texclip.marutank.net.... :) )B entails that infinity + 1 exists. Since we know it cannot exist, we know that B is false. If B is false, then A is also false.If A is false, then the universe is not eternal.________________________________________________________________There is another proof that the universe cannot be eternal:Let us look at A again:A: 'The universe is infinity years old'If this is to be true, then C must also be true:C: 'The universe is infinity seconds old'Which entails D:D: 'infinity years = infinity seconds'Divide both sides by infinity:E: '1 year = 1 second'$\frac{\infty}{\infty}$ is an indeterminate form. You can't perform such an operation. If you want to solve for $\lim_{x \to \infty} \frac{g(x)}{h(x)}$ where $\lim_{x \to \infty} g(x)$ and $\lim_{x \to \infty} h(x)$ are both $\infty$, you need to use l'Hopital's rule, i.e. find $\lim_{x \to \infty} \frac{g'(x)}{h'(x)}$.You do seems to have a better grasp of this areas of mathematics than I do, but the inability to use actual infinity in simple mathematical operations does indicate that it cannot be an actual number.Given that one year is equal to 31,557,600 seconds:F: '31,557600 = 1'Which is false.Reductio ad absurdum, A is false.
 Posts: 2,723 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/27/2015 2:15:16 PMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/27/2015 12:35:19 PM, Philocat wrote:At 12/27/2015 9:58:39 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:At 12/18/2015 11:21:07 AM, Philocat wrote:At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.https://en.wikipedia.org...The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.The concept of anything existing for an infinite time (having a duration of actual infinity in the temporal dimension) leads to absurdities, and so itself must be absurd.This is because right now I can make the statement:A: 'The universe is infinity years old'If the universe was eternal, then A would be true.This time next year (18th December 2016), I can also make this statement:B: 'The universe is infinity + 1 years old'But if A is true, then B is true as well. One year has passed between the statements A and B, therefore the universe is one year older at B than at A. If the universe is infinity years old at A, it logically follows that it is infinity + 1 years old at B.However, infinity + 1 is a mathematical (and therefore logical) impossibility. infinity is the highest possible number by definition. Hence it is logically impossible for infinity + 1 to exist.You can't really say that. Infinity itself is a mathematical impossibility. Infinity is not the highest possible number on the real number line. We can only say that the real number line has no maximum.I agree, the real number line has no maximum. But to say that an actual infinity exists presupposes that the real number line does have a maximum, and that actual infinity is the maximum. But since a maximum cannot actually exist, an actual infinity cannot exist.Yep.If you mean $\lim_{x \to \infty} f(x) = \infty$, note that this entails $\lim_{x \to \infty} (f(x) + 1) = \infty$ (since the 1 is negligible as $x \to \infty$).(Sorry if you don't understand this - I'm typing in LaTeX for convenience. If you don't understand LaTeX, there's a handy interpreter at http://texclip.marutank.net.... :) )B entails that infinity + 1 exists. Since we know it cannot exist, we know that B is false. If B is false, then A is also false.If A is false, then the universe is not eternal.________________________________________________________________There is another proof that the universe cannot be eternal:Let us look at A again:A: 'The universe is infinity years old'If this is to be true, then C must also be true:C: 'The universe is infinity seconds old'Which entails D:D: 'infinity years = infinity seconds'Divide both sides by infinity:E: '1 year = 1 second'$\frac{\infty}{\infty}$ is an indeterminate form. You can't perform such an operation. If you want to solve for $\lim_{x \to \infty} \frac{g(x)}{h(x)}$ where $\lim_{x \to \infty} g(x)$ and $\lim_{x \to \infty} h(x)$ are both $\infty$, you need to use l'Hopital's rule, i.e. find $\lim_{x \to \infty} \frac{g'(x)}{h'(x)}$.You do seems to have a better grasp of this areas of mathematics than I do, but the inability to use actual infinity in simple mathematical operations does indicate that it cannot be an actual number.Yeah, that's true. Like Tej, I'm not supporting a universe with infinite time, just trying to point out some problems with the argument...Given that one year is equal to 31,557,600 seconds:F: '31,557600 = 1'Which is false.Reductio ad absurdum, A is false.The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor Don't be a stat cynic: http://www.debate.org... Response to conservative views on deforestation: http://www.debate.org... Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
 Posts: 779 Add as FriendChallenge to a DebateSend a Message 12/27/2015 3:07:08 PMPosted: 1 year agoAt 12/27/2015 2:15:16 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:At 12/27/2015 12:35:19 PM, Philocat wrote:At 12/27/2015 9:58:39 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:At 12/18/2015 11:21:07 AM, Philocat wrote:At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?Some theories i've read are:1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes2. The universe is a simulation3. God??4. Everything came out of nowhere?What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.https://en.wikipedia.org...The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.The concept of anything existing for an infinite time (having a duration of actual infinity in the temporal dimension) leads to absurdities, and so itself must be absurd.This is because right now I can make the statement:A: 'The universe is infinity years old'If the universe was eternal, then A would be true.This time next year (18th December 2016), I can also make this statement:B: 'The universe is infinity + 1 years old'But if A is true, then B is true as well. One year has passed between the statements A and B, therefore the universe is one year older at B than at A. If the universe is infinity years old at A, it logically follows that it is infinity + 1 years old at B.However, infinity + 1 is a mathematical (and therefore logical) impossibility. infinity is the highest possible number by definition. Hence it is logically impossible for infinity + 1 to exist.You can't really say that. Infinity itself is a mathematical impossibility. Infinity is not the highest possible number on the real number line. We can only say that the real number line has no maximum.I agree, the real number line has no maximum. But to say that an actual infinity exists presupposes that the real number line does have a maximum, and that actual infinity is the maximum. But since a maximum cannot actually exist, an actual infinity cannot exist.Yep.If you mean $\lim_{x \to \infty} f(x) = \infty$, note that this entails $\lim_{x \to \infty} (f(x) + 1) = \infty$ (since the 1 is negligible as $x \to \infty$).(Sorry if you don't understand this - I'm typing in LaTeX for convenience. If you don't understand LaTeX, there's a handy interpreter at http://texclip.marutank.net.... :) )B entails that infinity + 1 exists. Since we know it cannot exist, we know that B is false. If B is false, then A is also false.If A is false, then the universe is not eternal.________________________________________________________________There is another proof that the universe cannot be eternal:Let us look at A again:A: 'The universe is infinity years old'If this is to be true, then C must also be true:C: 'The universe is infinity seconds old'Which entails D:D: 'infinity years = infinity seconds'Divide both sides by infinity:E: '1 year = 1 second'$\frac{\infty}{\infty}$ is an indeterminate form. You can't perform such an operation. If you want to solve for $\lim_{x \to \infty} \frac{g(x)}{h(x)}$ where $\lim_{x \to \infty} g(x)$ and $\lim_{x \to \infty} h(x)$ are both $\infty$, you need to use l'Hopital's rule, i.e. find $\lim_{x \to \infty} \frac{g'(x)}{h'(x)}$.You do seems to have a better grasp of this areas of mathematics than I do, but the inability to use actual infinity in simple mathematical operations does indicate that it cannot be an actual number.Yeah, that's true. Like Tej, I'm not supporting a universe with infinite time, just trying to point out some problems with the argument...I appreciate your input, after all, this argument was very off-the-cuff so it was bound to have some dodgy reasoning somewhere.Given that one year is equal to 31,557,600 seconds:F: '31,557600 = 1'Which is false.Reductio ad absurdum, A is false.