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What made the Big Bang?

triangle.128k
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12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.
Evidence
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12/15/2015 5:01:30 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?


First off. this is the science forum, so posting a religious concept like the BB-falsely called 'theory' here is already out of place. But, since very little science is being debated here, hey, why not, .. right?

In this religious story, one thing you are NOT allowed to bring up is EXACTLY what you just brought up; "What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?" The whole thing about this story (which by the way was received by the medium Georges Lemaitre who was a Jesuit Priest, .. you know, like the priests at the 6CERN66 LHC, and the ones at the Vatican's LUCIFER telescope here on Mt. Graham AZ.) so people would accept the theory as a scientific one, .. no questions asked. That there shows just how religious this falsely called theory really is!

But OK, let's go with what the story claims, right? They cannot deny the 'nothing' that this BB happened in, so they try to deny the existence of 'nothing'.

https://www.youtube.com...

lol.

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes :

Again, these are not theories. What 'facts' would you base multiverses on? What, that we have a universe that popped out of nothing and is expanding IN nothing? I mean come on, is that a fact? But in science fiction anything goes, as long as you stick to the rules in the fiction. Like does Peter Pan exist? Well of course he does, IN the book. If you refer to Peter Pan outside of the storybook like "Hey, pixy-dust can't make people fly!", you will be told that you are ignorant and you must read the book. Sooo, .. in this context, yes, multiverses sound like a good idea, .. we are just one of trillions of multiverses hidden in a secret locker at the Greyhound bus station.

2. The universe is a simulation :

Now you have something there, .. but not a simulation, but a creation. God the Infinite, Eternal Mind/Spirit "I Am Who I Am" created a program called the "Word", through and by whom He created all creation. You know, like a programmer creates a game world with a programming language, but it is really all just binary code right? 1's and 0's, and look at what we can create in a computer Matrix, right?
Now imagine God using entire languages instead of just the 1's and 0's, the complexity of this matrix would be, .. well just beyond description. But that's not all, what God did was put, .. or actually "breath" a little of Himself into a character, which makes this character in this amazing and complex Matrix self aware, who can move around in the Matrix (universe) with Free Will. Now just imagine the possibilities, where we can create Matrix within the matrix, .. Aaahhh... talk about science fiction becoming a reality, and that is exactly what we have, only with rules, where you cannot make others suffer, but everything has to work together for the good of all.

3. God?? :

Lol, .. why the 2 question marks? Of course God, who else, who Richard Dawkins, or Hawking, or, .. or Krauss? These people don't even have the right questions, not alone answers.

4. Everything came out of nowhere?


So when you dream up a concept, is it coming out of nowhere? Of course not, it comes from your mind. Now who gave you this mind? God did, the Infinite Eternal Creative Mind/Spirit "I Am Who I Am".

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.


Not much out there because in the past they just ignored the question. But now that we have the internet, they have to face up to it. I love how they scramble now to answer these basic questions which they kept out of their religious doctrines, so to create a diversion, they program the masses with movies and with this new LHC temples hoping to keep the 'believers' still believing. And of course that's not really hard to do, people want to believe in magic and fantastic stories, as long as our Creator is not part of it. I mean look how many (questionable characters) have taken religion to dangerous extremes, like Marshal Applewhite, joseph Smith, Jim Jones and hundreds of others, and people just flock to these charlatans, .. they love this bull. Go figure??
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root. - Henry David Thoreau
Maccabee
Posts: 1,234
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12/15/2015 6:41:50 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes

So you got to lose many to create one?
2. The universe is a simulation

And who's doing the simulation? If anything this theory proves a creator all the more.
3. God??

Not according to the Bible.
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

I'm grasping for words to describe how dumb that is. That violates the first law of thermodynamics.

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

I totally agree.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
SM2
Posts: 546
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12/15/2015 7:32:16 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

You forgot the no-boundary hypothesis.
janesix
Posts: 3,439
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12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.
Maccabee
Posts: 1,234
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12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.

That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
janesix
Posts: 3,439
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12/15/2015 10:08:29 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.

That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.

So they say. I see plenty of things tend towards order.
Maccabee
Posts: 1,234
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12/15/2015 10:23:36 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 10:08:29 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.

That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.

So they say. I see plenty of things tend towards order.

Like what?
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
janesix
Posts: 3,439
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12/15/2015 10:26:26 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 10:23:36 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:08:29 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.

That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.

So they say. I see plenty of things tend towards order.

Like what?

Snowflakes. Chemistry. Life. Crystals. Galaxies.
Maccabee
Posts: 1,234
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12/15/2015 10:30:24 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 10:26:26 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:23:36 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:08:29 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.

That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.

So they say. I see plenty of things tend towards order.

Like what?

Snowflakes. Chemistry. Life. Crystals. Galaxies.
Snowflakes and other crystals form due to their molecular makeup, they're not jumbled up pieces that make beautiful shapes. As for chemistry, life, and galaxies you'll have to explain in more detail. Keep in mind that you are arguing against a well established law to prove the Big Bang.
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
janesix
Posts: 3,439
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12/15/2015 10:35:26 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 10:30:24 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:26:26 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:23:36 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:08:29 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.

That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.

So they say. I see plenty of things tend towards order.

Like what?

Snowflakes. Chemistry. Life. Crystals. Galaxies.
Snowflakes and other crystals form due to their molecular makeup, they're not jumbled up pieces that make beautiful shapes. As for chemistry, life, and galaxies you'll have to explain in more detail. Keep in mind that you are arguing against a well established law to prove the Big Bang.

I dont think there was a big bang.
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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12/15/2015 10:36:20 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.

That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.

With respect to the arrow of time....

No time = no arrow of time for which order to increase in.
Maccabee
Posts: 1,234
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12/15/2015 11:19:05 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 10:36:20 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.

That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.

With respect to the arrow of time....

No time = no arrow of time for which order to increase in.

But without time you have nothing. If you have matter and space then when would you put it?
Scripture, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion, not science

When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.

"If guns are the cause of crimes then aren't matches the cause of arson?" D. Boys

"If the death penalty is government sanctioned killing then isn't inprisonment is government sanction kidnapping?" D. B

"Why do you trust the government with machine guns but not honest citizens?" D. B

All those who are pro-death (abortion) is already born
Toad-Uoff
Posts: 206
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12/15/2015 11:58:29 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Your opening Gambit is detrimentally flawed, in that the Big Bang Theory has been refuted and is no longer a viable theory.

http://lunaticoutpost.com...

Read the ENTIRE thread. Somewhere in there, the Big Bang Theory is discussed and refuted by toady's KNOWN FACTS of SCIENCE.

"Start with Bad Math, end with Bad Math, irregardless the Answer." - Old Toad Proverb

"Tits don't belong on the list." - George Carlin

Ribbit :)

Ps: You can also look at my Love/Logic thread in this section, to learn more about the OPEN SYSTEM nature of ALL of tHis and I have other threads on DDO that discuss Open Systems versus Closed Systems. Read those too. ;)
SM2
Posts: 546
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12/16/2015 12:16:00 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 11:19:05 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:36:20 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.

That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.

With respect to the arrow of time....

No time = no arrow of time for which order to increase in.

But without time you have nothing. If you have matter and space then when would you put it?

"Time" is really a fourth dimension of space. For some reason, we perceive it as one-way. If you abandon that assumption, which you'll have to if time gets all curled up (like at the moment of the Big Bang), then cause-and-effect becomes more of a space-like relationship. "Past" and "future" become like "left" and "right".

Perhaps a simpler analogy would be the surface of the Earth. Going back in time is like moving north. When you reach the north pole, your compass will get confused and spin around in a circle; your time machine will probably do the same thing when you reach the Big Bang (assuming it isn't destroyed first).
Evidence
Posts: 843
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12/18/2015 10:34:15 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/16/2015 12:16:00 AM, SM2 wrote:
At 12/15/2015 11:19:05 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:36:20 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.

That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.

With respect to the arrow of time....

No time = no arrow of time for which order to increase in.

But without time you have nothing. If you have matter and space then when would you put it?


Time is not a dimension, it doesn't even exist. We create the illusion of time by assigning seconds, minutes, hours and days to time keeping devices of our choosing. Solar for days, Indian drumming for seconds, stomach growling for 6AM, etc.

"Time" is really a fourth dimension of space. For some reason, we perceive it as one-way. If you abandon that assumption, which you'll have to if time gets all curled up (like at the moment of the Big Bang), then cause-and-effect becomes more of a space-like relationship. "Past" and "future" become like "left" and "right".


No, .. time isn't one way, look, we can count down time; T-10, 9, 8, 7, 6, .. I can make time go diagonal, 1,1 .. 2,2 .. 3,3 .. 4,4 now watch, I can make it go the other way; -1,-1 .. -2,-2 .. -3,-3 or I can just eliminate time and keep track of events with my mind, .. all at once, or individually if I choose.

Perhaps a simpler analogy would be the surface of the Earth. Going back in time is like moving north. When you reach the north pole, your compass will get confused and spin around in a circle; your time machine will probably do the same thing when you reach the Big Bang (assuming it isn't destroyed first). :

Big-bang, .. lol. I could just see the dumb-donkey looks on these Sci-Fientists faces at the LHC after starting it up again, .. thinking they will create a Big-bang by colliding basic-particles into each other (yeah right lol) revealing the magical particle that created the universe that is in the religious BB-story. Only nothing happened (Duh!).

I mean I love science fiction, but I had no idea that intelligent schooled people would actually believe in this Pixy-dust, sci-fi fantasy?? When I read the breaking news of the LHC being "within Days of creating a Parallel Universe!", I was stunned. I said to myself; this is not good. So what next, .. I mean they spent billions, they have to come up with something right? So I guess they'll just blow up a city or something, .. or explode a bunch of nukes down a fault line, and create some huge earthquakes, and claim it is the Parallel Universe, .. a Black hole, .. or a Worm hole they created in the 666 CERN LHC that's causing it, just to save-face.

I love how they Have their sci-fi writer puppet Steven Hawking 'Warn' of the potential dangers in creating a big bang, .. lol. That's like putting Warning labels on bottles of make-up sparkles: "Warning, .. may cause children to fly!"
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root. - Henry David Thoreau
Philocat
Posts: 728
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12/18/2015 11:21:07 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.

The concept of anything existing for an infinite time (having a duration of actual infinity in the temporal dimension) leads to absurdities, and so itself must be absurd.

This is because right now I can make the statement:

A: 'The universe is infinity years old'

If the universe was eternal, then A would be true.
This time next year (18th December 2016), I can also make this statement:

B: 'The universe is infinity + 1 years old'

But if A is true, then B is true as well. One year has passed between the statements A and B, therefore the universe is one year older at B than at A. If the universe is infinity years old at A, it logically follows that it is infinity + 1 years old at B.

However, infinity + 1 is a mathematical (and therefore logical) impossibility. infinity is the highest possible number by definition. Hence it is logically impossible for infinity + 1 to exist.

B entails that infinity + 1 exists. Since we know it cannot exist, we know that B is false. If B is false, then A is also false.

If A is false, then the universe is not eternal.

________________________________________________________________

There is another proof that the universe cannot be eternal:

Let us look at A again:

A: 'The universe is infinity years old'

If this is to be true, then C must also be true:

C: 'The universe is infinity seconds old'

Which entails D:

D: 'infinity years = infinity seconds'

Divide both sides by infinity:

E: '1 year = 1 second'

Given that one year is equal to 31,557,600 seconds:

F: '31,557600 = 1'

Which is false.

Reductio ad absurdum, A is false.
tejretics
Posts: 6,081
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12/18/2015 4:37:54 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 6:41:50 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes

So you got to lose many to create one?
2. The universe is a simulation

And who's doing the simulation? If anything this theory proves a creator all the more.
3. God??

Not according to the Bible.
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

I'm grasping for words to describe how dumb that is. That violates the first law of thermodynamics.

The laws of thermodynamics only apply within thermodynamic systems -- outside the universe, they don't apply.


What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

I totally agree.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Volkov
Posts: 9,765
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12/18/2015 5:01:24 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Why does the Big Bang need a cause, anyway? Or at least one that we can comprehend. We're creatures that live and think inside of the universe, and for us to think outside of it is asking a blind person to describe colour; there is no frame of reference for us to understand what caused the universe to go boom, if "cause" actually means anything outside of our universe where presumably this sort of thing happened - or maybe it didn't happen there, or has happened yet, or will happen at all.

Conclusion: this stuff is kind of mind-bending, but keep in mind the point is not necessarily what *caused* the Big Bang, but the fact that we know such a thing did actually occur - we can see its consequences in our skies, we can see the primordial radiation leftover from the expansion and cooling of the universe, and so on. This stuff isn't made up out of nowhere, and we basically understand everything happening after - but before? Again, no frame of reference. Maybe Jesus ate too many chili burritos, idk.
SM2
Posts: 546
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12/18/2015 10:13:39 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/18/2015 10:34:15 AM, Evidence wrote:
At 12/16/2015 12:16:00 AM, SM2 wrote:
At 12/15/2015 11:19:05 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:36:20 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.

That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.

With respect to the arrow of time....

No time = no arrow of time for which order to increase in.

But without time you have nothing. If you have matter and space then when would you put it?


Time is not a dimension, it doesn't even exist. We create the illusion of time by assigning seconds, minutes, hours and days to time keeping devices of our choosing. Solar for days, Indian drumming for seconds, stomach growling for 6AM, etc.

"Time" is really a fourth dimension of space. For some reason, we perceive it as one-way. If you abandon that assumption, which you'll have to if time gets all curled up (like at the moment of the Big Bang), then cause-and-effect becomes more of a space-like relationship. "Past" and "future" become like "left" and "right".


No, .. time isn't one way, look, we can count down time; T-10, 9, 8, 7, 6, .. I can make time go diagonal, 1,1 .. 2,2 .. 3,3 .. 4,4 now watch, I can make it go the other way; -1,-1 .. -2,-2 .. -3,-3 or I can just eliminate time and keep track of events with my mind, .. all at once, or individually if I choose.

Perhaps a simpler analogy would be the surface of the Earth. Going back in time is like moving north. When you reach the north pole, your compass will get confused and spin around in a circle; your time machine will probably do the same thing when you reach the Big Bang (assuming it isn't destroyed first). :

Big-bang, .. lol. I could just see the dumb-donkey looks on these Sci-Fientists faces at the LHC after starting it up again, .. thinking they will create a Big-bang by colliding basic-particles into each other (yeah right lol) revealing the magical particle that created the universe that is in the religious BB-story. Only nothing happened (Duh!).

I mean I love science fiction, but I had no idea that intelligent schooled people would actually believe in this Pixy-dust, sci-fi fantasy?? When I read the breaking news of the LHC being "within Days of creating a Parallel Universe!", I was stunned. I said to myself; this is not good. So what next, .. I mean they spent billions, they have to come up with something right? So I guess they'll just blow up a city or something, .. or explode a bunch of nukes down a fault line, and create some huge earthquakes, and claim it is the Parallel Universe, .. a Black hole, .. or a Worm hole they created in the 666 CERN LHC that's causing it, just to save-face.

I love how they Have their sci-fi writer puppet Steven Hawking 'Warn' of the potential dangers in creating a big bang, .. lol. That's like putting Warning labels on bottles of make-up sparkles: "Warning, .. may cause children to fly!"

I hope you don't expect a serious response.
tejretics
Posts: 6,081
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12/27/2015 8:50:58 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/18/2015 11:21:07 AM, Philocat wrote:
At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.

The concept of anything existing for an infinite time (having a duration of actual infinity in the temporal dimension) leads to absurdities, and so itself must be absurd.

This is because right now I can make the statement:

A: 'The universe is infinity years old'

If the universe was eternal, then A would be true.
This time next year (18th December 2016), I can also make this statement:

B: 'The universe is infinity + 1 years old'

But if A is true, then B is true as well. One year has passed between the statements A and B, therefore the universe is one year older at B than at A. If the universe is infinity years old at A, it logically follows that it is infinity + 1 years old at B.

However, infinity + 1 is a mathematical (and therefore logical) impossibility. infinity is the highest possible number by definition. Hence it is logically impossible for infinity + 1 to exist.

B entails that infinity + 1 exists. Since we know it cannot exist, we know that B is false. If B is false, then A is also false.

If A is false, then the universe is not eternal.

This argument fails because all it shows is that infinities have odd properties. Infinity doesn't share properties with other numbers, seeing as infinity + 1 = infinity. Adding to and subtracting from infinity doesn't change the value of infinity, since infinity's value does not have similar properties to the numerical value of standard numbers (read Martin's Atheism: A Philosophical Justification).


________________________________________________________________

There is another proof that the universe cannot be eternal:

Let us look at A again:

A: 'The universe is infinity years old'

If this is to be true, then C must also be true:

C: 'The universe is infinity seconds old'

Which entails D:

D: 'infinity years = infinity seconds'

Divide both sides by infinity:

E: '1 year = 1 second'

Given that one year is equal to 31,557,600 seconds:

F: '31,557600 = 1'

Which is false.

Reductio ad absurdum, A is false.

You can't "divide by infinity." Division by infinity is incoherent, since infinity is not a "real number." Numerical operations apply only to ordinary numbers. Infinity isn't as straightforward as another number. Infinity divided by infinity does not equal one.

[Sidenote: I'm not arguing that infinities are possible, nor do I hold that the universe had an infinite past; I'm merely pointing out the flaws in this argument.]
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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12/27/2015 9:58:39 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/18/2015 11:21:07 AM, Philocat wrote:
At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.

The concept of anything existing for an infinite time (having a duration of actual infinity in the temporal dimension) leads to absurdities, and so itself must be absurd.

This is because right now I can make the statement:

A: 'The universe is infinity years old'

If the universe was eternal, then A would be true.
This time next year (18th December 2016), I can also make this statement:

B: 'The universe is infinity + 1 years old'

But if A is true, then B is true as well. One year has passed between the statements A and B, therefore the universe is one year older at B than at A. If the universe is infinity years old at A, it logically follows that it is infinity + 1 years old at B.

However, infinity + 1 is a mathematical (and therefore logical) impossibility. infinity is the highest possible number by definition. Hence it is logically impossible for infinity + 1 to exist.
You can't really say that. Infinity itself is a mathematical impossibility. Infinity is not the highest possible number on the real number line. We can only say that the real number line has no maximum.

If you mean $\lim_{x \to \infty} f(x) = \infty$, note that this entails $\lim_{x \to \infty} (f(x) + 1) = \infty$ (since the 1 is negligible as $x \to \infty$).

(Sorry if you don't understand this - I'm typing in LaTeX for convenience. If you don't understand LaTeX, there's a handy interpreter at http://texclip.marutank.net.... :) )
B entails that infinity + 1 exists. Since we know it cannot exist, we know that B is false. If B is false, then A is also false.

If A is false, then the universe is not eternal.

________________________________________________________________

There is another proof that the universe cannot be eternal:

Let us look at A again:

A: 'The universe is infinity years old'

If this is to be true, then C must also be true:

C: 'The universe is infinity seconds old'

Which entails D:

D: 'infinity years = infinity seconds'

Divide both sides by infinity:

E: '1 year = 1 second'
$\frac{\infty}{\infty}$ is an indeterminate form. You can't perform such an operation. If you want to solve for $\lim_{x \to \infty} \frac{g(x)}{h(x)}$ where $\lim_{x \to \infty} g(x)$ and $\lim_{x \to \infty} h(x)$ are both $\infty$, you need to use l'Hopital's rule, i.e. find $\lim_{x \to \infty} \frac{g'(x)}{h'(x)}$.
Given that one year is equal to 31,557,600 seconds:

F: '31,557600 = 1'

Which is false.

Reductio ad absurdum, A is false.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
Philocat
Posts: 728
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12/27/2015 12:30:28 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/27/2015 8:50:58 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 12/18/2015 11:21:07 AM, Philocat wrote:
At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.

The concept of anything existing for an infinite time (having a duration of actual infinity in the temporal dimension) leads to absurdities, and so itself must be absurd.

This is because right now I can make the statement:

A: 'The universe is infinity years old'

If the universe was eternal, then A would be true.
This time next year (18th December 2016), I can also make this statement:

B: 'The universe is infinity + 1 years old'

But if A is true, then B is true as well. One year has passed between the statements A and B, therefore the universe is one year older at B than at A. If the universe is infinity years old at A, it logically follows that it is infinity + 1 years old at B.

However, infinity + 1 is a mathematical (and therefore logical) impossibility. infinity is the highest possible number by definition. Hence it is logically impossible for infinity + 1 to exist.

B entails that infinity + 1 exists. Since we know it cannot exist, we know that B is false. If B is false, then A is also false.

If A is false, then the universe is not eternal.

This argument fails because all it shows is that infinities have odd properties. Infinity doesn't share properties with other numbers, seeing as infinity + 1 = infinity. Adding to and subtracting from infinity doesn't change the value of infinity, since infinity's value does not have similar properties to the numerical value of standard numbers (read Martin's Atheism: A Philosophical Justification).

Saying that infinity has 'odd properties' is a vague hand-wave in trying to dismiss the impossibility of an actual infinity.

It's like if someone casually dismissed the omnipotence paradox by saying that omnipotence has 'odd properties'.

Mathematical rules are unbreakable, so if something breaks these rules then it cannot exist. Therefore an actual infinity cannot exist.

Infinity is just a concept. Some mathematician saw the need to ascribe a name to the idea of a highest possible number because there are some calculations that require this function. However, a 'highest possible number' cannot actually exist because we can always add 1. It is impossible to ever reach a number that cannot be exceeded (which itself is actual infinity).



________________________________________________________________

There is another proof that the universe cannot be eternal:

Let us look at A again:

A: 'The universe is infinity years old'

If this is to be true, then C must also be true:

C: 'The universe is infinity seconds old'

Which entails D:

D: 'infinity years = infinity seconds'

Divide both sides by infinity:

E: '1 year = 1 second'

Given that one year is equal to 31,557,600 seconds:

F: '31,557600 = 1'

Which is false.

Reductio ad absurdum, A is false.

You can't "divide by infinity." Division by infinity is incoherent, since infinity is not a "real number." Numerical operations apply only to ordinary numbers. Infinity isn't as straightforward as another number. Infinity divided by infinity does not equal one.

If it is not a real number, then it isn't real. In other words, it is not actual.

Ergo, actual infinity does not exist.


[Sidenote: I'm not arguing that infinities are possible, nor do I hold that the universe had an infinite past; I'm merely pointing out the flaws in this argument.]

It's a reductio ad absurdum; the existence of the flaws point to the impossibility of an actual infinity.
Philocat
Posts: 728
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12/27/2015 12:35:19 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/27/2015 9:58:39 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 12/18/2015 11:21:07 AM, Philocat wrote:
At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.

The concept of anything existing for an infinite time (having a duration of actual infinity in the temporal dimension) leads to absurdities, and so itself must be absurd.

This is because right now I can make the statement:

A: 'The universe is infinity years old'

If the universe was eternal, then A would be true.
This time next year (18th December 2016), I can also make this statement:

B: 'The universe is infinity + 1 years old'

But if A is true, then B is true as well. One year has passed between the statements A and B, therefore the universe is one year older at B than at A. If the universe is infinity years old at A, it logically follows that it is infinity + 1 years old at B.

However, infinity + 1 is a mathematical (and therefore logical) impossibility. infinity is the highest possible number by definition. Hence it is logically impossible for infinity + 1 to exist.
You can't really say that. Infinity itself is a mathematical impossibility. Infinity is not the highest possible number on the real number line. We can only say that the real number line has no maximum.

I agree, the real number line has no maximum. But to say that an actual infinity exists presupposes that the real number line does have a maximum, and that actual infinity is the maximum. But since a maximum cannot actually exist, an actual infinity cannot exist.


If you mean $\lim_{x \to \infty} f(x) = \infty$, note that this entails $\lim_{x \to \infty} (f(x) + 1) = \infty$ (since the 1 is negligible as $x \to \infty$).

(Sorry if you don't understand this - I'm typing in LaTeX for convenience. If you don't understand LaTeX, there's a handy interpreter at http://texclip.marutank.net.... :) )
B entails that infinity + 1 exists. Since we know it cannot exist, we know that B is false. If B is false, then A is also false.

If A is false, then the universe is not eternal.

________________________________________________________________

There is another proof that the universe cannot be eternal:

Let us look at A again:

A: 'The universe is infinity years old'

If this is to be true, then C must also be true:

C: 'The universe is infinity seconds old'

Which entails D:

D: 'infinity years = infinity seconds'

Divide both sides by infinity:

E: '1 year = 1 second'
$\frac{\infty}{\infty}$ is an indeterminate form. You can't perform such an operation. If you want to solve for $\lim_{x \to \infty} \frac{g(x)}{h(x)}$ where $\lim_{x \to \infty} g(x)$ and $\lim_{x \to \infty} h(x)$ are both $\infty$, you need to use l'Hopital's rule, i.e. find $\lim_{x \to \infty} \frac{g'(x)}{h'(x)}$.

You do seems to have a better grasp of this areas of mathematics than I do, but the inability to use actual infinity in simple mathematical operations does indicate that it cannot be an actual number.
Given that one year is equal to 31,557,600 seconds:

F: '31,557600 = 1'

Which is false.

Reductio ad absurdum, A is false.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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12/27/2015 2:15:16 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/27/2015 12:35:19 PM, Philocat wrote:
At 12/27/2015 9:58:39 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 12/18/2015 11:21:07 AM, Philocat wrote:
At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.

The concept of anything existing for an infinite time (having a duration of actual infinity in the temporal dimension) leads to absurdities, and so itself must be absurd.

This is because right now I can make the statement:

A: 'The universe is infinity years old'

If the universe was eternal, then A would be true.
This time next year (18th December 2016), I can also make this statement:

B: 'The universe is infinity + 1 years old'

But if A is true, then B is true as well. One year has passed between the statements A and B, therefore the universe is one year older at B than at A. If the universe is infinity years old at A, it logically follows that it is infinity + 1 years old at B.

However, infinity + 1 is a mathematical (and therefore logical) impossibility. infinity is the highest possible number by definition. Hence it is logically impossible for infinity + 1 to exist.
You can't really say that. Infinity itself is a mathematical impossibility. Infinity is not the highest possible number on the real number line. We can only say that the real number line has no maximum.

I agree, the real number line has no maximum. But to say that an actual infinity exists presupposes that the real number line does have a maximum, and that actual infinity is the maximum. But since a maximum cannot actually exist, an actual infinity cannot exist.
Yep.

If you mean $\lim_{x \to \infty} f(x) = \infty$, note that this entails $\lim_{x \to \infty} (f(x) + 1) = \infty$ (since the 1 is negligible as $x \to \infty$).

(Sorry if you don't understand this - I'm typing in LaTeX for convenience. If you don't understand LaTeX, there's a handy interpreter at http://texclip.marutank.net.... :) )
B entails that infinity + 1 exists. Since we know it cannot exist, we know that B is false. If B is false, then A is also false.

If A is false, then the universe is not eternal.

________________________________________________________________

There is another proof that the universe cannot be eternal:

Let us look at A again:

A: 'The universe is infinity years old'

If this is to be true, then C must also be true:

C: 'The universe is infinity seconds old'

Which entails D:

D: 'infinity years = infinity seconds'

Divide both sides by infinity:

E: '1 year = 1 second'
$\frac{\infty}{\infty}$ is an indeterminate form. You can't perform such an operation. If you want to solve for $\lim_{x \to \infty} \frac{g(x)}{h(x)}$ where $\lim_{x \to \infty} g(x)$ and $\lim_{x \to \infty} h(x)$ are both $\infty$, you need to use l'Hopital's rule, i.e. find $\lim_{x \to \infty} \frac{g'(x)}{h'(x)}$.

You do seems to have a better grasp of this areas of mathematics than I do, but the inability to use actual infinity in simple mathematical operations does indicate that it cannot be an actual number.
Yeah, that's true. Like Tej, I'm not supporting a universe with infinite time, just trying to point out some problems with the argument...
Given that one year is equal to 31,557,600 seconds:

F: '31,557600 = 1'

Which is false.

Reductio ad absurdum, A is false.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
Philocat
Posts: 728
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12/27/2015 3:07:08 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/27/2015 2:15:16 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 12/27/2015 12:35:19 PM, Philocat wrote:
At 12/27/2015 9:58:39 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 12/18/2015 11:21:07 AM, Philocat wrote:
At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.

The concept of anything existing for an infinite time (having a duration of actual infinity in the temporal dimension) leads to absurdities, and so itself must be absurd.

This is because right now I can make the statement:

A: 'The universe is infinity years old'

If the universe was eternal, then A would be true.
This time next year (18th December 2016), I can also make this statement:

B: 'The universe is infinity + 1 years old'

But if A is true, then B is true as well. One year has passed between the statements A and B, therefore the universe is one year older at B than at A. If the universe is infinity years old at A, it logically follows that it is infinity + 1 years old at B.

However, infinity + 1 is a mathematical (and therefore logical) impossibility. infinity is the highest possible number by definition. Hence it is logically impossible for infinity + 1 to exist.
You can't really say that. Infinity itself is a mathematical impossibility. Infinity is not the highest possible number on the real number line. We can only say that the real number line has no maximum.

I agree, the real number line has no maximum. But to say that an actual infinity exists presupposes that the real number line does have a maximum, and that actual infinity is the maximum. But since a maximum cannot actually exist, an actual infinity cannot exist.
Yep.

If you mean $\lim_{x \to \infty} f(x) = \infty$, note that this entails $\lim_{x \to \infty} (f(x) + 1) = \infty$ (since the 1 is negligible as $x \to \infty$).

(Sorry if you don't understand this - I'm typing in LaTeX for convenience. If you don't understand LaTeX, there's a handy interpreter at http://texclip.marutank.net.... :) )
B entails that infinity + 1 exists. Since we know it cannot exist, we know that B is false. If B is false, then A is also false.

If A is false, then the universe is not eternal.

________________________________________________________________

There is another proof that the universe cannot be eternal:

Let us look at A again:

A: 'The universe is infinity years old'

If this is to be true, then C must also be true:

C: 'The universe is infinity seconds old'

Which entails D:

D: 'infinity years = infinity seconds'

Divide both sides by infinity:

E: '1 year = 1 second'
$\frac{\infty}{\infty}$ is an indeterminate form. You can't perform such an operation. If you want to solve for $\lim_{x \to \infty} \frac{g(x)}{h(x)}$ where $\lim_{x \to \infty} g(x)$ and $\lim_{x \to \infty} h(x)$ are both $\infty$, you need to use l'Hopital's rule, i.e. find $\lim_{x \to \infty} \frac{g'(x)}{h'(x)}$.

You do seems to have a better grasp of this areas of mathematics than I do, but the inability to use actual infinity in simple mathematical operations does indicate that it cannot be an actual number.
Yeah, that's true. Like Tej, I'm not supporting a universe with infinite time, just trying to point out some problems with the argument...

I appreciate your input, after all, this argument was very off-the-cuff so it was bound to have some dodgy reasoning somewhere.

Given that one year is equal to 31,557,600 seconds:

F: '31,557600 = 1'

Which is false.

Reductio ad absurdum, A is false.
Evidence
Posts: 843
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12/27/2015 11:19:53 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/18/2015 10:13:39 PM, SM2 wrote:
At 12/18/2015 10:34:15 AM, Evidence wrote:
At 12/16/2015 12:16:00 AM, SM2 wrote:
At 12/15/2015 11:19:05 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:36:20 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 12/15/2015 10:04:12 PM, Maccabee wrote:
At 12/15/2015 7:45:48 PM, janesix wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?

Some theories i've read are:

1. A multiverse causing the deaths and births of new universes
2. The universe is a simulation
3. God??
4. Everything came out of nowhere?

What are some theories to what came before the Big Bang? I haven't looked quite too much into this topic, plus the evidence for any of these theories is minimal and open to debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

The universe could be an eternal universe, so no need for a beginning. There is only the appearance of a beginning. A torus universe fits all the facts.

That violates the second law of thermodynamics. Everything tend towards disorder.

With respect to the arrow of time....

No time = no arrow of time for which order to increase in.

But without time you have nothing. If you have matter and space then when would you put it?


Time is not a dimension, it doesn't even exist. We create the illusion of time by assigning seconds, minutes, hours and days to time keeping devices of our choosing. Solar for days, Indian drumming for seconds, stomach growling for 6AM, etc.

"Time" is really a fourth dimension of space. For some reason, we perceive it as one-way. If you abandon that assumption, which you'll have to if time gets all curled up (like at the moment of the Big Bang), then cause-and-effect becomes more of a space-like relationship. "Past" and "future" become like "left" and "right".


No, .. time isn't one way, look, we can count down time; T-10, 9, 8, 7, 6, .. I can make time go diagonal, 1,1 .. 2,2 .. 3,3 .. 4,4 now watch, I can make it go the other way; -1,-1 .. -2,-2 .. -3,-3 or I can just eliminate time and keep track of events with my mind, .. all at once, or individually if I choose.

Perhaps a simpler analogy would be the surface of the Earth. Going back in time is like moving north. When you reach the north pole, your compass will get confused and spin around in a circle; your time machine will probably do the same thing when you reach the Big Bang (assuming it isn't destroyed first). :

Big-bang, .. lol. I could just see the dumb-donkey looks on these Sci-Fientists faces at the LHC after starting it up again, .. thinking they will create a Big-bang by colliding basic-particles into each other (yeah right lol) revealing the magical particle that created the universe that is in the religious BB-story. Only nothing happened (Duh!).

I mean I love science fiction, but I had no idea that intelligent schooled people would actually believe in this Pixy-dust, sci-fi fantasy?? When I read the breaking news of the LHC being "within Days of creating a Parallel Universe!", I was stunned. I said to myself; this is not good. So what next, .. I mean they spent billions, they have to come up with something right? So I guess they'll just blow up a city or something, .. or explode a bunch of nukes down a fault line, and create some huge earthquakes, and claim it is the Parallel Universe, .. a Black hole, .. or a Worm hole they created in the 666 CERN LHC that's causing it, just to save-face.

I love how they Have their sci-fi writer puppet Steven Hawking 'Warn' of the potential dangers in creating a big bang, .. lol. That's like putting Warning labels on bottles of make-up sparkles: "Warning, .. may cause children to fly!"

I hope you don't expect a serious response. :

Why would I expect a serious response to some Luciferian fairytales, are you serious? Besides, you can already see that I know what's going on, how they mix science with this "Let's eliminate God from the picture" scam on humanity.

Look I have already shown the magic-trick used in time-dilation, did I show you guys the trick used in keeping light at a speed? First, this is why the lie was made up: "The light seen from stars left them many years ago, allowing the study of the history of the universe by looking at distant objects" - Wikipedia

How can they justify Carl Sagan's famous "millions and billions of years ago" stories by observing the present, huh? But see those stars, now add that famous line millions and billions of years ago, .. and you can make up anything you want.

O yea, let's talk quantum mechanics and physics, like 'they' going to let you buy a laser, or anything to build in your garage or basement to replicate their finds LOL.. They control all RadioShack's and I couldn't even get enough magnetic wire to help make a tiny generator for my children's grade school science project. What we do have is fairytales mixed in with real science, and we don't need to verify the info they placed on the internet 'they' will do it for us. Oh, there it is, Internet science news: "It's been verified by the greatest Nobel Prize winning scientists in the world, you can trust it's true." lol.

Like going to get a second opinion once you have been diagnosed with cancer LOL. You can go anywhere in the world, including some remote parts of the Indies and brother you have cancer, you have been tagged.

Here, prove to me light has speed, yet: When he combined the principle of relativity with the constant speed of light, it became clear to Einstein that the speed of light was also independent of the speed of the observer (as well as of the speed of the source of the light), and that everyone in the universe, no matter how fast they were moving, would always measure the speed of light at exactly the same 300,000 km/s.

1. If anything has speed, it means it travels, do you agree? (well you kind of have to since they claim it takes 8 minutes for the light from the sun to reach us here on earth)
2. A one-second beam of light (186,282 miles long beam) shot into space at a sensor target at a distance, once it hit the sensor, it would sense a light for exactly one second, do you agree?
3. if that target was on a ship coming towards us at oh let's say 80,000 m/p/minute, let me ask you; would the sensor pick up less then a second light?

In case you don't understand, let's take a water gun in space, and if we shot a one second stream of water (at any velocity) through space when this stream hit the target, the target would register a one second stream, correct? (Now the length of that water stream may differ depending on the velocity it came out of the gun, but the one second time length would remain the same, right?)

Now, tell me what is the difference between the one second beam of light traveling through space, and the one second stream of water from the water gun?

Now if a ship in space with the target we aimed the water stream was coming towards us, it would drastically reduce the one second stream of water, do you agree?

I'll ask the next questions after you (or anyone good in physics) give me the answers to my above questions.

Thanks and God bless.
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root. - Henry David Thoreau
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,571
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12/29/2015 4:53:22 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/15/2015 5:01:30 AM, Evidence wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?


First off. this is the science forum, so posting a religious concept like the BB-falsely called 'theory' here is already out of place. But, since very little science is being debated here, hey, why not, .. right?

Actually the hypothesis that an intelligent cause underpins the observable universe is no less scientific than the insistence that naturalism can account for everything.

Harry.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,580
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12/29/2015 6:07:17 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/29/2015 4:53:22 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
At 12/15/2015 5:01:30 AM, Evidence wrote:
At 12/15/2015 1:33:57 AM, triangle.128k wrote:
What do you think came before the big bang, or what caused it?


First off. this is the science forum, so posting a religious concept like the BB-falsely called 'theory' here is already out of place. But, since very little science is being debated here, hey, why not, .. right?

Actually the hypothesis that an intelligent cause underpins the observable universe is no less scientific than the insistence that naturalism can account for everything.

Harry.

Yet, you nor anyone else has ever produced a shred of evidence or observation for an "intelligent cause". How is that scientific?
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