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Big Bang expansion acceleration hypothesis

AWSM0055
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1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

http://explosm.net...
dee-em
Posts: 6,472
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1/8/2016 11:53:17 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands.

This is an assertion. Observation shows us that space is expanding but no-one has suggested time is expanding (or contracting). On what basis do you make your assertion?

So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding.

Only if you have already premised time to be expanding. You need to justify your premise not assume it.

When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

No. If the time were accelerating it would only give the illusion of the expansion of space accelerating. However, you haven't justified your premise yet.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

Non sequitur.

How does this sound?

Not very good since you have no evidence for time accelerating or decelerating.
AWSM0055
Posts: 751
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1/8/2016 1:36:43 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 11:53:17 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands.

This is an assertion. Observation shows us that space is expanding but no-one has suggested time is expanding (or contracting). On what basis do you make your assertion?

Well, space and time are linked, so it would make sense that if space is expanding, time would too. That's why they call it space-time.

So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding.

Only if you have already premised time to be expanding. You need to justify your premise not assume it.

Same as above

When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

No. If the time were accelerating it would only give the illusion of the expansion of space accelerating. However, you haven't justified your premise yet.

Just did

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

Non sequitur.

How does this sound?

Not very good since you have no evidence for time accelerating or decelerating.

I know I don't have evidence. I was wondering whether it logically makes sense.
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

http://explosm.net...
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,622
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1/8/2016 1:45:20 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?

Time has absolutely no effect on anything, it is merely a measurement.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
chui
Posts: 507
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1/8/2016 2:20:54 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 1:45:20 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?

Time has absolutely no effect on anything, it is merely a measurement.

Do I take it that you do not accept special relativity.
chui
Posts: 507
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1/8/2016 2:30:40 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?

I think you may have a circular argument here. Time expands because space expands so space expands faster. There is no cause to drive the space expansion in your argument.

As I understand it non-accelerating space expansion is thought to be driven by energy. If the expansion is getting faster there needs to be more energy. Energy density of space is equivalent of the mass density which in turn leads to more gravity and this would manifest as space-time curving more. So the extra energy should be apparent in observations of space time curvature as predicted by general relativity. This curvature is not being observed but the increased expansion in space is, hence the epithet 'dark energy'.
AWSM0055
Posts: 751
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1/8/2016 2:58:13 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 2:30:40 PM, chui wrote:
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?

I think you may have a circular argument here. Time expands because space expands so space expands faster. There is no cause to drive the space expansion in your argument.

I know. I guess the Big Bang got the ball rolling? I'm not sure.

As I understand it non-accelerating space expansion is thought to be driven by energy. If the expansion is getting faster there needs to be more energy. Energy density of space is equivalent of the mass density which in turn leads to more gravity and this would manifest as space-time curving more. So the extra energy should be apparent in observations of space time curvature as predicted by general relativity. This curvature is not being observed but the increased expansion in space is, hence the epithet 'dark energy'.

Sure, but what if the accelerating expansion is just an illusion, and not dark energy at all, but rather the constant related self-generating expansion? I dunno.
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

http://explosm.net...
AWSM0055
Posts: 751
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1/8/2016 2:59:29 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 1:45:20 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?

Time has absolutely no effect on anything, it is merely a measurement.

....You don't seem to be familier with general relativity...
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

http://explosm.net...
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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1/8/2016 3:53:24 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?

I think in reality the other guys are being a bit harsh.

At first glance this question seems to be asked in Good faith, and I don't think it's fair for you to be jumped on like you have been in this thread.

Looking at this, this is actually a quite interesting question (I wouldn't call it a hypothesis, but that's just me being a pedant):

Could the acceleration of expansion be down to "accelerating time?"

On the face of it, it seems a reasonable conclusion.

So, lets investigate further.

Lets say you have two objects 10 meters apart that are moving apart because of the expansion of space. They are moving at 10m/s.

You measure them over a period of time with a clock, and find that they are also accelerating by 1m/s^2.

That means in a specific period of time, the speed is increasing. This is roughly what we measure now.

So lets say time is accelerating; in that 1 second in the past is "longer" than 1 second in the future.

Lets say that the objects aren't actually accelerating, but the length of the second is decreasing, lets make the measurements again:

Lets say you have two objects 10 meters apart that are moving apart because of the expansion of space. They are moving at 10m/s.

You make this measurement by calculating how far the objects have moved in 1 second.

You make this measurement again, by calculating how far the objects have moved in 1 second later.

If the objects aren't accelerating, the second calculation you make would also show that they are moving at 10m/s.

Why?

Well, even though time is accelerating, you can't tell, because the frame of reference you have is accelerating too. If you had a clock outside the universe and outside the accelerating affect, it may show a different speed of the objects, but as your clock is within the universe and subject to the same time acceleration.

Effectively, if time was accelerating, we wouldn't be able to tell, because any bench mark of what 1 second is would accelerate too.
AWSM0055
Posts: 751
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1/9/2016 1:35:30 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 3:53:24 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?

I think in reality the other guys are being a bit harsh.

At first glance this question seems to be asked in Good faith, and I don't think it's fair for you to be jumped on like you have been in this thread.

Looking at this, this is actually a quite interesting question (I wouldn't call it a hypothesis, but that's just me being a pedant):

Could the acceleration of expansion be down to "accelerating time?"

On the face of it, it seems a reasonable conclusion.

So, lets investigate further.

Lets say you have two objects 10 meters apart that are moving apart because of the expansion of space. They are moving at 10m/s.

You measure them over a period of time with a clock, and find that they are also accelerating by 1m/s^2.

That means in a specific period of time, the speed is increasing. This is roughly what we measure now.

So lets say time is accelerating; in that 1 second in the past is "longer" than 1 second in the future.

Lets say that the objects aren't actually accelerating, but the length of the second is decreasing, lets make the measurements again:


Lets say you have two objects 10 meters apart that are moving apart because of the expansion of space. They are moving at 10m/s.

You make this measurement by calculating how far the objects have moved in 1 second.

You make this measurement again, by calculating how far the objects have moved in 1 second later.

If the objects aren't accelerating, the second calculation you make would also show that they are moving at 10m/s.

Why?

Well, even though time is accelerating, you can't tell, because the frame of reference you have is accelerating too. If you had a clock outside the universe and outside the accelerating affect, it may show a different speed of the objects, but as your clock is within the universe and subject to the same time acceleration.

Interesting

Effectively, if time was accelerating, we wouldn't be able to tell, because any bench mark of what 1 second is would accelerate too.

So, in effect, my "hypothesis" is sort of unfalsifiable?
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

http://explosm.net...
Ramshutu
Posts: 4,063
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1/9/2016 2:06:03 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/9/2016 1:35:30 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 3:53:24 PM, Ramshutu wrote:
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?

I think in reality the other guys are being a bit harsh.

At first glance this question seems to be asked in Good faith, and I don't think it's fair for you to be jumped on like you have been in this thread.

Looking at this, this is actually a quite interesting question (I wouldn't call it a hypothesis, but that's just me being a pedant):

Could the acceleration of expansion be down to "accelerating time?"

On the face of it, it seems a reasonable conclusion.

So, lets investigate further.

Lets say you have two objects 10 meters apart that are moving apart because of the expansion of space. They are moving at 10m/s.

You measure them over a period of time with a clock, and find that they are also accelerating by 1m/s^2.

That means in a specific period of time, the speed is increasing. This is roughly what we measure now.

So lets say time is accelerating; in that 1 second in the past is "longer" than 1 second in the future.

Lets say that the objects aren't actually accelerating, but the length of the second is decreasing, lets make the measurements again:


Lets say you have two objects 10 meters apart that are moving apart because of the expansion of space. They are moving at 10m/s.

You make this measurement by calculating how far the objects have moved in 1 second.

You make this measurement again, by calculating how far the objects have moved in 1 second later.

If the objects aren't accelerating, the second calculation you make would also show that they are moving at 10m/s.

Why?

Well, even though time is accelerating, you can't tell, because the frame of reference you have is accelerating too. If you had a clock outside the universe and outside the accelerating affect, it may show a different speed of the objects, but as your clock is within the universe and subject to the same time acceleration.

Interesting

Effectively, if time was accelerating, we wouldn't be able to tell, because any bench mark of what 1 second is would accelerate too.

So, in effect, my "hypothesis" is sort of unfalsifiable?

Effectively yes, there is no way of telling.

Another key factor to take into consideration is the following. While time and space are related to one another in spacetime, this is mainly considered true due to the relativistic relationship between the two; IE: as time slows down, distance contracts.

However, the expansion of the universe is not using the same mechanism; if it was, we wouldn't be able to tell the universe is expanding. When we travel fast, even though a meter ruler is shorter than a meter to an outside observer, to us it would still be one meter. As we can measure the distance is changing, it can be observed not to be down to the same sort of relativistic effects that tie time and space together.

An important and interesting consideration, however, is that you're kinda correct that time is, of a fashion, accelerating.

Consider a light bulb in a far away galaxy flashing once every 100 seconds; over time, the measured time interval will get longer and longer than 100 seconds; as a product of expanding space.

Saying this, however, the effect of the expanding universe necessarily requires energy, which is where "dark energy" has been labelled to explain. Moreover, we can measure the curvature of the universe to be 0 (indicating a combined sum of 0 energy present in the universe), taking into account inferred mass of dark matter, the inferred visible mass, leaves a chunk of energy to create the 0 sum is approximately the amount of energy that would explain the observed acceleration of the universe.

What this all means, in affect, is even if you were right, energy would still be required, and there is enough evidence to infer the existence of energy driving the acceleration of the universe by other means.
Sidewalker
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1/9/2016 5:24:54 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?

The "universe's expansion" is a "metric" expansion of space, it means spatial distances increase with time in terms of the coordinate system, spacetime is just the mathematical coordinate system of the theory.

You are literalizing the spacetime construct of Relativity Theory into an independently existing entity that directly contradicts the very theory it is based on. Let's recognize what spacetime is in Relativity Theory, it.s a geometric coordinate system, a mathematical abstraction that combines the three spatial dimensions and the time dimension into a manifold, nothing but a geometric coordinate system that provides an abstract mathematical representation within the theory. The most novel feature of Relativity Theory is its general covariance, which means you are free to use arbitrary spacetime coordinate systems, the mathematics are descriptive of reality, they are not themselves real. It's meaningless to say that spacetime accelerates itself, movement is only possible relative to something else, but time is a concept without a physical referent, if it is accelerating, what is it accelerating relative to? There is no space and time if there are no things with spatial properties and processes with temporal dimensions.

In the theory spacetime is a four dimensional coordinate system that represents a manifold of events, if there are no metric or matter fields, there is no manifold of events. According to Einstein's theory of General relativity, if there is no matter and energy, there is no time and space. Time and space can't be measured independently, so spacetime can't itself expand, only temporal and spatial distances between things and events can be measured, the metric expansion of space is defined by a change in the distance between galaxies over time.

Within Relativity Theory, when you speak of spacetime you are talking about Minkowski space, which is a manifold that mathematically treats the temporal dimension differently than the three spatial dimensions, it is a geometric representation of the four dimensions with provides distances between events. The whole point of the mathematical model is that it makes the total distance between events in spacetime independent of the different reference frames even though individual measurements within the different reference frames can vary due to length contraction and time dilation. The metric distances within the coordinate system can expand, but spacetime itself can.t expand.
"It is one of the commonest of mistakes to consider that the limit of our power of perception is also the limit of all there is to perceive." " C. W. Leadbeater
dee-em
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1/9/2016 2:50:27 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 1:36:43 PM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 11:53:17 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands.

This is an assertion. Observation shows us that space is expanding but no-one has suggested time is expanding (or contracting). On what basis do you make your assertion?

Well, space and time are linked, so it would make sense that if space is expanding, time would too. That's why they call it space-time.

The first three dimensions are spatial. Time is different, even if together they make up the space-time continuum. You still have to offer some kind of reason why expanding space implies expanding time. The parts of a car are linked. That the wheels are revolving as the car moves doesn't mean that the windscreen is too.

So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding.

Only if you have already premised time to be expanding. You need to justify your premise not assume it.

Same as above

You haven't justified it, other than to say "it makes sense". It doesn't to me.

When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

No. If the time were accelerating it would only give the illusion of the expansion of space accelerating. However, you haven't justified your premise yet.

Just did

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

Non sequitur.

How does this sound?

Not very good since you have no evidence for time accelerating or decelerating.

I know I don't have evidence. I was wondering whether it logically makes sense.

It doesn't really because if time were accelerating or decelerating (which would be impossible to verify as explained by Ram) it would affect our observation of the rate of expansion of space. Then you would no longer have both space and time in an accelerating expansion as you originally premised.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,622
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1/9/2016 3:13:29 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 2:20:54 PM, chui wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:45:20 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?

Time has absolutely no effect on anything, it is merely a measurement.

Do I take it that you do not accept special relativity.

Yes, I do, what is your point.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,622
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1/9/2016 3:15:31 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 2:59:29 PM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:45:20 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?

Time has absolutely no effect on anything, it is merely a measurement.

....You don't seem to be familier with general relativity...

Yes, I do, would you care to go over the field equations and show me how your theory has anything to do with general relativity?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
AWSM0055
Posts: 751
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1/10/2016 1:34:41 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/9/2016 3:13:29 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:20:54 PM, chui wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:45:20 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?

Time has absolutely no effect on anything, it is merely a measurement.

Do I take it that you do not accept special relativity.

Yes, I do, what is your point.

Special relativity states that time and space are interlinked. The Big Bang theory states that the interlinked space time expands from a single infinitesimal point. As space expands, time also expands. This space time expansion is also accelerating, which many say is due to dark energy.

If time accelerates due to being expanded (which I don't know, just an assumption), then the expansion of space accelerates too, Ad Infinitum.

Do you understand where I'm getting at?
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

http://explosm.net...
chui
Posts: 507
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1/10/2016 10:26:09 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/9/2016 3:13:29 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:20:54 PM, chui wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:45:20 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?

Time has absolutely no effect on anything, it is merely a measurement.

Do I take it that you do not accept special relativity.

Yes, I do, what is your point.

How do you reconcile time being only a measurement and having no effect on anything with time dilation?
chui
Posts: 507
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1/10/2016 11:13:56 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/8/2016 2:58:13 PM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:30:40 PM, chui wrote:
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?

I think you may have a circular argument here. Time expands because space expands so space expands faster. There is no cause to drive the space expansion in your argument.

I know. I guess the Big Bang got the ball rolling? I'm not sure.
On reflection you have a good point there. The expansion of space is started in the events of the big bang.

As I understand it non-accelerating space expansion is thought to be driven by energy. If the expansion is getting faster there needs to be more energy. Energy density of space is equivalent of the mass density which in turn leads to more gravity and this would manifest as space-time curving more. So the extra energy should be apparent in observations of space time curvature as predicted by general relativity. This curvature is not being observed but the increased expansion in space is, hence the epithet 'dark energy'.

Sure, but what if the accelerating expansion is just an illusion, and not dark energy at all, but rather the constant related self-generating expansion? I dunno.

Having read a little further into dark energy, your ideas are not so far from what some are actually proposing. One theory suggest that we are now in a region of the universe which has lower than average density and since mass causes gravity which effects time this could be causing an apparent change in the rate of expansion.

Have a look at the alternative ideas section here: https://en.wikipedia.org...
DanneJeRusse
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1/10/2016 3:47:38 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/10/2016 10:26:09 AM, chui wrote:
At 1/9/2016 3:13:29 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:20:54 PM, chui wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:45:20 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?

Time has absolutely no effect on anything, it is merely a measurement.

Do I take it that you do not accept special relativity.

Yes, I do, what is your point.

How do you reconcile time being only a measurement and having no effect on anything with time dilation?

Time is being affected with time dilation, time is not actually affecting anything. In Special Relativity, time dilates as a result of two observers moving relative to each other, time is the measurement of that event, it does not affect the event.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
DanneJeRusse
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1/10/2016 3:54:22 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/10/2016 1:34:41 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 1/9/2016 3:13:29 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:20:54 PM, chui wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:45:20 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?

Time has absolutely no effect on anything, it is merely a measurement.

Do I take it that you do not accept special relativity.

Yes, I do, what is your point.

Special relativity states that time and space are interlinked. The Big Bang theory states that the interlinked space time expands from a single infinitesimal point. As space expands, time also expands. This space time expansion is also accelerating, which many say is due to dark energy.

If time accelerates due to being expanded (which I don't know, just an assumption), then the expansion of space accelerates too, Ad Infinitum.

Do you understand where I'm getting at?

Yes, I see where you're going, but you have not demonstrated that time is actually affecting anything, you've only shown that time itself is being affected by other phenomenon. However, time does not expand, it can only increase or decrease in measurement when compared to another source of time.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
AWSM0055
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1/11/2016 2:55:34 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/10/2016 3:54:22 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/10/2016 1:34:41 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
At 1/9/2016 3:13:29 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:20:54 PM, chui wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:45:20 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?

Time has absolutely no effect on anything, it is merely a measurement.

Do I take it that you do not accept special relativity.

Yes, I do, what is your point.

Special relativity states that time and space are interlinked. The Big Bang theory states that the interlinked space time expands from a single infinitesimal point. As space expands, time also expands. This space time expansion is also accelerating, which many say is due to dark energy.

If time accelerates due to being expanded (which I don't know, just an assumption), then the expansion of space accelerates too, Ad Infinitum.

Do you understand where I'm getting at?

Yes, I see where you're going, but you have not demonstrated that time is actually affecting anything, you've only shown that time itself is being affected by other phenomenon. However, time does not expand, it can only increase or decrease in measurement when compared to another source of time.

Ok then, thank you for that correction.
"Evolution proves necessity is the mother of invention" - David Henson

"Calling my atheism a religion, is like calling my non-stamp-collecting a hobby" - MagicAintReal 2016

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Matt8800: "When warring men kidnap damsels of the enemy, what do they do?"

Jerry947: "They give them the option of marriage."

Matt8800: "Correct! You won idiot of the year award!"

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chui
Posts: 507
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1/11/2016 1:37:49 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/10/2016 3:47:38 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/10/2016 10:26:09 AM, chui wrote:
At 1/9/2016 3:13:29 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:20:54 PM, chui wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:45:20 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?

Time has absolutely no effect on anything, it is merely a measurement.

Do I take it that you do not accept special relativity.

Yes, I do, what is your point.

How do you reconcile time being only a measurement and having no effect on anything with time dilation?

Time is being affected with time dilation, time is not actually affecting anything. In Special Relativity, time dilates as a result of two observers moving relative to each other, time is the measurement of that event, it does not affect the event.

Interesting view but I feel time does affect things eg growth, decay, velocity, energy etc. Perhaps the following thought experiment might help clarify my view:

If I collect photons from a source of light moving transversely relative to me then the energy of the individual photons decreases due to the dilation effect. The change in the photon energy is due to time slowing for the moving source. Perhaps a specific example may help. Let's set v=0.9c so the dilation effect is 2.3 . The photons would have an energy of 43% compared to a stationary source.

I feel this shows that time is not just a measurement. Time is also the rate at which we move along the time dimension and things change with time. Time is not the cause of the change, that is true, but without time no change is possible and having different rates of time between frames causes different outcomes.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,622
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1/12/2016 12:22:26 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/11/2016 1:37:49 PM, chui wrote:
At 1/10/2016 3:47:38 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/10/2016 10:26:09 AM, chui wrote:
At 1/9/2016 3:13:29 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/8/2016 2:20:54 PM, chui wrote:
At 1/8/2016 1:45:20 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/8/2016 3:21:54 AM, AWSM0055 wrote:
Ok, I have a hypothesis as to why the universe's expansion is accelerating, and I want any scientifically literate people's opinion on it:

Space/time is expanding as the universe expands. So as space is expanding, time would likewise be expanding. When time expands, it accelerates (I guess), so therefore, as time accelerates, it also accelerates the expansion rate of the universe, Ad Infinitum.

So instead of dark energy accelerating the expansion of the universe, space/time accelerates itself.

How does this sound?

Time has absolutely no effect on anything, it is merely a measurement.

Do I take it that you do not accept special relativity.

Yes, I do, what is your point.

How do you reconcile time being only a measurement and having no effect on anything with time dilation?

Time is being affected with time dilation, time is not actually affecting anything. In Special Relativity, time dilates as a result of two observers moving relative to each other, time is the measurement of that event, it does not affect the event.

Interesting view

It's physics.

but I feel time does affect things eg growth, decay, velocity, energy etc.

Sorry, but time is not the effect on those things, other processes are and time can measure them.

Perhaps the following thought experiment might help clarify my view:

If I collect photons from a source of light moving transversely relative to me then the energy of the individual photons decreases due to the dilation effect. The change in the photon energy is due to time slowing for the moving source.

Nope, time is not the effect there, it is the motion of two reference frames which can be transformed from one to the other, thus eliminating the relativistic effect.

Perhaps a specific example may help. Let's set v=0.9c so the dilation effect is 2.3 . The photons would have an energy of 43% compared to a stationary source.

I feel this shows that time is not just a measurement.

Again, time is NOT causing the effect.

Time is also the rate at which we move along the time dimension and things change with time. Time is not the cause of the change, that is true, but without time no change is possible and having different rates of time between frames causes different outcomes.

Again, your talking about other effects from other processes whereupon time is simply measuring those effects, time is NOT affecting them
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
chui
Posts: 507
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1/13/2016 9:53:35 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/12/2016 12:22:26 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:


How do you reconcile time being only a measurement and having no effect on anything with time dilation?

Time is being affected with time dilation, time is not actually affecting anything. In Special Relativity, time dilates as a result of two observers moving relative to each other, time is the measurement of that event, it does not affect the event.

Interesting view

It's physics.

All the texts I have read are at pains to point out that time dilation is a real effect. Calling time just a measurement would seem to be a contradiction to that idea. I think we are arguing semantics not physics.


but I feel time does affect things eg growth, decay, velocity, energy etc.

Sorry, but time is not the effect on those things, other processes are and time can measure them.
Time is not the cause of the change agreed, but time allows the change to happen.

Perhaps the following thought experiment might help clarify my view:

If I collect photons from a source of light moving transversely relative to me then the energy of the individual photons decreases due to the dilation effect. The change in the photon energy is due to time slowing for the moving source.

Nope, time is not the effect there, it is the motion of two reference frames which can be transformed from one to the other, thus eliminating the relativistic effect.
The photons received in the 'stationary' frame from the 'moving' frame will not have the same energy, they are red-shifted. The relativistic effect is real and cannot be eliminated. If there were no time dilation the photons would not be red-shifted. The transverse Doppler shift is a purely relativistic effect, its what Ives and Stilwell used to demonstrate the reality of time dilation.

Perhaps a specific example may help. Let's set v=0.9c so the dilation effect is 2.3 . The photons would have an energy of 43% compared to a stationary source.

I feel this shows that time is not just a measurement.

Again, time is NOT causing the effect.
Not the cause but more than a mere measurement.

Time is also the rate at which we move along the time dimension and things change with time. Time is not the cause of the change, that is true, but without time no change is possible and having different rates of time between frames causes different outcomes.

Again, your talking about other effects from other processes whereupon time is simply measuring those effects, time is NOT affecting them.

So what is time? My concern is that you appear to suggest that time is a human construct and not a dimension as the idea of space-time implies.
DanneJeRusse
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1/13/2016 1:19:28 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/13/2016 9:53:35 AM, chui wrote:
At 1/12/2016 12:22:26 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:


How do you reconcile time being only a measurement and having no effect on anything with time dilation?

Time is being affected with time dilation, time is not actually affecting anything. In Special Relativity, time dilates as a result of two observers moving relative to each other, time is the measurement of that event, it does not affect the event.

Interesting view

It's physics.

All the texts I have read are at pains to point out that time dilation is a real effect. Calling time just a measurement would seem to be a contradiction to that idea. I think we are arguing semantics not physics.

Time dilation is a real effect, time (as a measurement of a process) is being affected, it is not affecting anything.


but I feel time does affect things eg growth, decay, velocity, energy etc.

Sorry, but time is not the effect on those things, other processes are and time can measure them.
Time is not the cause of the change agreed, but time allows the change to happen.

No, it does not, it is simply a measurement of the change.

Perhaps the following thought experiment might help clarify my view:

If I collect photons from a source of light moving transversely relative to me then the energy of the individual photons decreases due to the dilation effect. The change in the photon energy is due to time slowing for the moving source.

Nope, time is not the effect there, it is the motion of two reference frames which can be transformed from one to the other, thus eliminating the relativistic effect.
The photons received in the 'stationary' frame from the 'moving' frame will not have the same energy, they are red-shifted. The relativistic effect is real and cannot be eliminated. If there were no time dilation the photons would not be red-shifted. The transverse Doppler shift is a purely relativistic effect, its what Ives and Stilwell used to demonstrate the reality of time dilation.

Nowhere in your explanation does it show time is affecting anything, it is simply being affected due to relativistic effects, which can be transformed from the stationary frame to the moving frame.

Perhaps a specific example may help. Let's set v=0.9c so the dilation effect is 2.3 . The photons would have an energy of 43% compared to a stationary source.

I feel this shows that time is not just a measurement.

Again, time is NOT causing the effect.
Not the cause but more than a mere measurement.

If more, then you need to show that.

Time is also the rate at which we move along the time dimension and things change with time. Time is not the cause of the change, that is true, but without time no change is possible and having different rates of time between frames causes different outcomes.

Again, your talking about other effects from other processes whereupon time is simply measuring those effects, time is NOT affecting them.


So what is time? My concern is that you appear to suggest that time is a human construct and not a dimension as the idea of space-time implies.

I have suggested no such thing.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
chui
Posts: 507
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1/14/2016 10:01:22 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/13/2016 1:19:28 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/13/2016 9:53:35 AM, chui wrote:
At 1/12/2016 12:22:26 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

So to recap you state that

Time is a measurement
Time is a dimension
Time dilation really happens
But
Time changes nothing?

If time changes nothing how can we establish time dilation is real?
No affect implies nothing to measure, doesn't it?
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,622
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1/14/2016 1:48:22 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/14/2016 10:01:22 AM, chui wrote:
At 1/13/2016 1:19:28 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/13/2016 9:53:35 AM, chui wrote:
At 1/12/2016 12:22:26 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

So to recap you state that

Time is a measurement
Time is a dimension
Time dilation really happens
But
Time changes nothing?

If time changes nothing how can we establish time dilation is real?
No affect implies nothing to measure, doesn't it?

You don't appear to understand time dilation, that is when the measurements of time are being affected by another phenomenon, time itself is not affecting anything.
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth
chui
Posts: 507
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1/14/2016 2:57:49 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/14/2016 1:48:22 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/14/2016 10:01:22 AM, chui wrote:
At 1/13/2016 1:19:28 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/13/2016 9:53:35 AM, chui wrote:
At 1/12/2016 12:22:26 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

So to recap you state that

Time is a measurement
Time is a dimension
Time dilation really happens
But
Time changes nothing?

If time changes nothing how can we establish time dilation is real?
No affect implies nothing to measure, doesn't it?

You don't appear to understand time dilation, that is when the measurements of time are being affected by another phenomenon, time itself is not affecting anything.

So if time did not exist it would not matter?
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,245
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1/15/2016 7:37:04 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
If time sped up across the board nothing would appear to be going any faster since time is relative. The rate of cosmic expansion has to accelerate relative to the frame of another observer. So in order for the hypothesis to work, you would have to posit the existence of two separate time frames: one in which our observations are made, and one in which the universe expands, and these time frames would have to be continually diverging. Since all of our observations are made from within space-time, it's not clear that this makes any sense. The universe appears to be accelerating in its "expansion" *faster* than other physical processes. In other words, in the time it takes for an atom to decay, for instance, the universe will expand more tomorrow than it would today. If time itself were speeding up, the time it takes for an atomic to decay would keep up with the rate of cosmic expansion and nothing would look different from our perspective.
DanneJeRusse
Posts: 12,622
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1/16/2016 12:26:39 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/14/2016 2:57:49 PM, chui wrote:
At 1/14/2016 1:48:22 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/14/2016 10:01:22 AM, chui wrote:
At 1/13/2016 1:19:28 PM, DanneJeRusse wrote:
At 1/13/2016 9:53:35 AM, chui wrote:
At 1/12/2016 12:22:26 AM, DanneJeRusse wrote:

So to recap you state that

Time is a measurement
Time is a dimension
Time dilation really happens
But
Time changes nothing?

If time changes nothing how can we establish time dilation is real?
No affect implies nothing to measure, doesn't it?

You don't appear to understand time dilation, that is when the measurements of time are being affected by another phenomenon, time itself is not affecting anything.

So if time did not exist it would not matter?

What would not matter?
Marrying a 6 year old and waiting until she reaches puberty and maturity before having consensual sex is better than walking up to
a stranger in a bar and proceeding to have relations with no valid proof of the intent of the person. Muhammad wins. ~ Fatihah
If they don't want to be killed then they have to subdue to the Islamic laws. - Uncung
Without God, you are lower than sh!t. ~ SpiritandTruth