Total Posts:15Showing Posts:115
The pons asinorum of modern mathematics
Posts: 2,753
Add as Friend Challenge to a Debate Send a Message 
2/4/2016 5:26:18 PM Posted: 1 year ago The pons asinorum of Greek mathematics was Proposition 5 of Book I of Euclid's Elements: The base angles of an isosceles triangle are equal. Its proof was believed to be a 'bridge': Anyone who can cross it is not a donkey, hence the name pons asinorum (yeah, 'asinorum' has to do with the word @ss). But times have changed and so have mathematics. What should the new pons asinorum be?
I think it should be the firstorder linear differential equation. It require you to apply nearly all knowledge of algebra, trignometry and calculus up to that point (I guess geometry is less relevant, but I don't like geometry...) It's not the easiest to learn, but also not hard once you get the hang of it. Here are some other possible pons asinorums (or whatever the correct Latin plural is) I thought of. What do you think? Quadratic equations Central limit theorem Polynomial equations and the Fundamental Theorem of Algebra Equations of circles sin^2 a + cos^2 a = 1 Taylor series Definite integrals and the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus Geometric series Proof of AM >= GM >= HM Pythagorean theorem (any proof) Expoential and logarithmic equations Logarithmic differentiation Epsilondelta proofs Volume of a sphere Inverse of a 3x3 matrix Simultaneous linear equations and Gaussian elimination Euler's formula/De Moivre's Theorem Polynomial division and the remainder theorem I think it is well established that the only reason aliens come to earth is to slice up cows and examine inside peoples' bottoms. Unless you are a cow or suffer haemerrhoids I don't think there is anything to worry about from aliens.  keithprosser Don't be a stat cynic: http://www.debate.org... Response to conservative views on deforestation: http://www.debate.org... Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com... 
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend Challenge to a Debate Send a Message 
2/10/2016 9:39:25 AM Posted: 1 year ago At 2/4/2016 5:26:18 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote: DC, I wonder whether it's being able to explain why science: 1) Relies on empiricism, yet continuously changes its model and methods; 2) Is the continuing elimination of ignorance and error from knowledge, and not the conclusive proof of truth; 3) Having derived from natural philosophy, and while still being stimulated by it and occasionally challenged by it, is no longer accountable to philosophy alone; 4) While making extensive use of logic and math, is not created by either. In support for this contention, I find that members who understand this, can: understand a sketched rationale behind almost any accepted scientific result, recognise the difference between science and pseudoscience quite easily, and make a decent fist of understanding the philosophy of science and science history. Meanwhile, those who miss one or more of these seem to be missing critical knowledge in the discussion, critique and appreciation of science, while those who miss all of them seem to be missing the fundamental concepts of what science  or knowledge  are at all. I hope that may be useful. 
Posts: 2,753
Add as Friend Challenge to a Debate Send a Message 
2/10/2016 6:02:55 PM Posted: 1 year ago At 2/10/2016 9:39:25 AM, RuvDraba wrote:At 2/4/2016 5:26:18 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote: Hi RuvDraba :) I agree that the above may well be the pons asinorum of modern science, or indeed of a modern intellectual, but my OP was actually asking about the pons asinorum of modern maths. Which mathematical concept do you think could play the same role that Euclid's proof did in Ancient Greece? I think it is well established that the only reason aliens come to earth is to slice up cows and examine inside peoples' bottoms. Unless you are a cow or suffer haemerrhoids I don't think there is anything to worry about from aliens.  keithprosser Don't be a stat cynic: http://www.debate.org... Response to conservative views on deforestation: http://www.debate.org... Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com... 
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend Challenge to a Debate Send a Message 
2/10/2016 6:51:47 PM Posted: 1 year ago At 2/10/2016 6:02:55 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:At 2/10/2016 9:39:25 AM, RuvDraba wrote:At 2/4/2016 5:26:18 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote: You're right, DC! You did, and I overlooked that in part because I was having another conversation (in fact several) your question pinged off intuitively. Consequently, I got quite a lot from my own contribution, while contributing nothing to your topic. My apologies! Which mathematical concept do you think could play the same role that Euclid's proof did in Ancient Greece?I think the point of a pons asinorum is to set a bar below which it's not worth doing even remedial education. How tall must you be to go on the ride? In geometry, an isoceles triangle is the simplest regular polygon, and the key test under this proof is whether you can go from knowledge about lengths to inferences about angles. If you can, you've performed a fundamental step in geometry, using the simplest example. If you can't, there's no simpler example, so you may simply not be ready for the required abstraction. I think that in modern math, that abstractive role is occupied more by algebra than by the symmetries of triangles  in fact, very few mathematicians now make inferences the way Pappus and Euclid used to. Visual intuitions aren't trusted so much as they once were, while the linguistic substitutions of algebra are still (mostly) unquestioned. Algebra also represents a major cognitive step in a math student, from the rote methods used in arithmetic to the design of what in informatics is now called patterns  templated methods that you can compose, adapt and decompose. Algebra has relevance to computational procedures of all kinds, and ties to logic in a nice way too. So I think the pons asinorum needs to be a simple, irreducible algebraic problem with the same sort of ambiguity as the isoceles triangle problem, requiring the same cutthrough intuitions, but like the triangle problem, having few moving parts. I think I'd pick a 3x3 linear algebra problem, DC (i.e, 3 equations with 3 unknowns)  linear algebra because its impact on math is about as high as that of calculus, because it's part of the machinery generalising calculus, because it doesn't require any operation more sophisticated than basic arithmetic, because it draws on all the symmetries underpinning arithmetic, because it's key to all manner of logistical problems besetting business and daily life, and because linear algebra is the Sudoku of math. :D 3x3 because it has just enough moving parts to bewilder, not so many that you can't see that there ought to be a way of solving it, nor so few that you can be immediately confident there's only one solution, and enough combinations that it's hard to guess by trial and error. :) As to what the actual problem should be, I'm not sure, but I think it should use small numbers and feature some hint as to the importance of the diagonal, like... 1x + 2y + 3z = 3 3x + 1y + 2z = 2 2x + 3y + 1z = 1 Solve for x, y, z. This one solves via reduced row echelon methods in eight steps, which is probably too many. The solution it produces isn't terribly exciting, and there might be a squintandstab approach that solves it without producing the necessary insights, so the problem might be improved by playing. Yet it's a taunting problem for anyone who hasn't solved something like this before, and I could imagine a dedicated twelve yearold spending some hours or even days on it (if you turned off their WiFi. :D), and like all good introductory problems, it ought to produce more questions than answers. :) I hope that may be more constructive than my last post. :D 
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend Challenge to a Debate Send a Message 
2/10/2016 7:24:21 PM Posted: 1 year ago At 2/10/2016 6:51:47 PM, RuvDraba wrote: I should have added that in my country at least, four in five adults probably couldn't solve this problem, DC. Nevertheless, it's simpler than most household budgeting problems (where you might have two incomes, eight lines of credit and need to balance monthly repayments. :p) So if you want a pons asinorum numeracy benchmark that relates to realworld concerns, I think this one's probably not far off. :D 
Posts: 9,512
Add as Friend Challenge to a Debate Send a Message 
2/10/2016 7:53:38 PM Posted: 1 year ago You know, it's the damndest thinguntil today, I had never heard the phrase "pons asinorum" before.

Posts: 2,753
Add as Friend Challenge to a Debate Send a Message 
2/11/2016 2:49:13 PM Posted: 1 year ago At 2/10/2016 6:51:47 PM, RuvDraba wrote:Haha, no worries. I read your discussions from time to time  I think I've read your posts on and off since you joined  and I understand what you mean. (Pity that UndeniableReality isn't on DDO any more, btw. :( )At 2/10/2016 6:02:55 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote: I don't think there's no simpler example  Euclid's proof involved three pairs of congruent triangles, and I think there are proofs that are easier than that. So I think there's still a sort of complexity there  the same sort that I find firstorder linear ODEs. I understand your point though  the pons asinorum should also signify some kind of transition to 'higher' maths.Which mathematical concept do you think could play the same role that Euclid's proof did in Ancient Greece?I think the point of a pons asinorum is to set a bar below which it's not worth doing even remedial education. How tall must you be to go on the ride? I think that in modern math, that abstractive role is occupied more by algebra than by the symmetries of triangles  in fact, very few mathematicians now make inferences the way Pappus and Euclid used to. Visual intuitions aren't trusted so much as they once were, while the linguistic substitutions of algebra are still (mostly) unquestioned.Very true. The only geometric proof I remember doing that isn't directly related to shapes is that of the AM >= GM >= HM inequality. Algebra also represents a major cognitive step in a math student, from the rote methods used in arithmetic to the design of what in informatics is now called patterns  templated methods that you can compose, adapt and decompose. Algebra has relevance to computational procedures of all kinds, and ties to logic in a nice way too.I agree. Actually, the introduction of factorisation was the time I struggled most in mathematics  I overcame it eventually by lots of drilling! (Though by that time it was three years after I was first introduced to algebra.) So I think the pons asinorum needs to be a simple, irreducible algebraic problem with the same sort of ambiguity as the isoceles triangle problem, requiring the same cutthrough intuitions, but like the triangle problem, having few moving parts.Haha, I agree with all those, particularly the last line. :) 3x3 because it has just enough moving parts to bewilder, not so many that you can't see that there ought to be a way of solving it, nor so few that you can be immediately confident there's only one solution, and enough combinations that it's hard to guess by trial and error. :)I would make the coefficients a tad more complicated than that, personally. I think a 12yearold can solve this fairly easily using the substitution and elimination methods that they've already learnt  I've done the problem both the Gaussian way and the algebraic way, and I think the former isn't significantly faster :P Or maybe an additional unknown could be introduced  that would make the problem much harder to solve using elementary algebra. But I agree that if given necessary instruction, simultaneous equations could be an instructive introduction to the world of linear algebra and 'higher' mathematics in general (in fact, it was one of the candidates I mentioned in the OP XD). I hope that may be more constructive than my last post. :DIt was very insightful :) I think it is well established that the only reason aliens come to earth is to slice up cows and examine inside peoples' bottoms. Unless you are a cow or suffer haemerrhoids I don't think there is anything to worry about from aliens.  keithprosser Don't be a stat cynic: http://www.debate.org... Response to conservative views on deforestation: http://www.debate.org... Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com... 
Posts: 2,753
Add as Friend Challenge to a Debate Send a Message 
2/11/2016 2:51:59 PM Posted: 1 year ago At 2/10/2016 7:24:21 PM, RuvDraba wrote:And you want to minimise tax :P A knowledge of optimisation and linear programming will probably go a long way toward saving money in real life as well, though I'm not sure how many people remember these from school to apply them to daily life. XDAt 2/10/2016 6:51:47 PM, RuvDraba wrote: I think most adults can still do simultaneous equations using the substitution/elimination methods if they're pressed to do it, though the majority probably won't recall the reduced row echelon form (or the row echelon form for that matter). So if you want a pons asinorum numeracy benchmark that relates to realworld concerns, I think this one's probably not far off. :DYep :) I think it is well established that the only reason aliens come to earth is to slice up cows and examine inside peoples' bottoms. Unless you are a cow or suffer haemerrhoids I don't think there is anything to worry about from aliens.  keithprosser Don't be a stat cynic: http://www.debate.org... Response to conservative views on deforestation: http://www.debate.org... Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com... 
Posts: 2,753
Add as Friend Challenge to a Debate Send a Message 
2/11/2016 2:52:55 PM Posted: 1 year ago At 2/10/2016 7:53:38 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote: Hi Cody! Always great to see you around and I hope you're online more :P You're always insightful, and your posts are always thoughtprovoking. And wow, there are words you don't know? :O I think it is well established that the only reason aliens come to earth is to slice up cows and examine inside peoples' bottoms. Unless you are a cow or suffer haemerrhoids I don't think there is anything to worry about from aliens.  keithprosser Don't be a stat cynic: http://www.debate.org... Response to conservative views on deforestation: http://www.debate.org... Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com... 
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend Challenge to a Debate Send a Message 
2/11/2016 9:33:51 PM Posted: 1 year ago At 2/11/2016 2:49:13 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:I miss him too, but he's a busy boy, completing a PhD and working in a startup when last I heard. :)At 2/10/2016 6:51:47 PM, RuvDraba wrote:Haha, no worries. I read your discussions from time to time  I think I've read your posts on and off since you joined  and I understand what you mean. (Pity that UndeniableReality isn't on DDO any more, btw. :( )At 2/10/2016 6:02:55 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:You're right, DC! You did, and I overlooked that in part because I was having another conversation (in fact several) your question pinged off intuitively. Consequently, I got quite a lot from my own contribution, while contributing nothing to your topic. My apologies! Yes, Pappus has a fun one that uses only one triangle viewed two different ways. [http://www.themathpage.com...] It has sometimes been called an 'Irish bull' proof  because the triangle is in two places at once. :D [https://en.wikipedia.org...] By way of explanation, the obscure term 'Irish bull' normally applies to witty but contradictory aphorisms like:I don't think there's no simpler example  Euclid's proof involved three pairs of congruent triangles, and I think there are proofs that are easier than that.Which mathematical concept do you think could play the same role that Euclid's proof did in Ancient Greece?I think the point of a pons asinorum is to set a bar below which it's not worth doing even remedial education. How tall must you be to go on the ride? He'll regret it till his dying day, if ever he lives that long, or Always go to other people's funerals, otherwise they won't come to yours In the TV animation series Archer, the spy Archer has a cyborg nemesis called Barry  who often engages in dialogue with himself as 'other Barry'. I think Pappus' proof is like that  an isoceles triangle talking to the other isoceles triangle with the same sides and angles as itself. :D I think the pons asinorum needs to be a simple, irreducible algebraic problem with the same sort of ambiguity as the isoceles triangle problem, requiring the same cutthrough intuitions, but like the triangle problem, having few moving parts.Haha, I agree with all those, particularly the last line. :) Well, Gauss went a bit upmarket from my idea. He felt that the best pons asinorum in modern math was the Euler identity: e ^ (i * pi) + 1 = 0 Aside from being beautifully simple, it connects logarithms, complex analysis, geometry and number theory. Gauss' view was that if you could see right away why it was true you'd be a great mathematician. If you couldn't, you kinda shouldn't bother. :D A simple argument for why it's true comes form Euler's formula in complex analysis: e ^ (i * x) = cos x + i sin x. When x = pi, the result drops out easily. But you need to know complex analysis, or it'll still be mysterious. However, there are numbertheoretic and geometric explanations too on the Wikipedia page [https://en.wikipedia.org...'s_identity] Yet I still like the linear algebra example simply because just about anyone with high school math can attempt it, yet (I suspect) few can complete it despite its apparent simplicity. 3x3 because it has just enough moving parts to bewilder, not so many that you can't see that there ought to be a way of solving it, nor so few that you can be immediately confident there's only one solution, and enough combinations that it's hard to guess by trial and error. :) I would make the coefficients a tad more complicated than that, personally. I think a 12yearold can solve this fairly easily using the substitution and elimination methods that they've already learnt.It's possible that a twelve yearold might do a better job than most adults on this, DC, but if I handed this problem to my clients (most of them whitecollar professionals in senior business roles) and demanded they solve it or I'll firebomb their Volvo, I reckon most would be hunting and pecking at guessed numbers. :p But I agree that if given necessary instruction, simultaneous equations could be an instructive introduction to the world of linear algebra and 'higher' mathematics in general (in fact, it was one of the candidates I mentioned in the OP XD).Yes  I realised after I pushed 'send' that you had already listed a matrix inversion I hadn't acknowledged  so let me do so now. :D Thank you for a fun question  and congrats on getting your thread stickied (however briefly) as an exemplary Science topic. :DI hope that may be more constructive than my last post. :DIt was very insightful :) 
Posts: 5,157
Add as Friend Challenge to a Debate Send a Message 
2/11/2016 10:00:19 PM Posted: 1 year ago But times have changed and so have mathematics. What should the new pons asinorum be?
Whether times and maths have changed I will not consider, but human minds haven't changed. The point of the original PA is that it is a test for an untutored mind, for 'mathematical virgins'. I think that anything requiring even minimal exposure to mathematical concepts can't be a PA, ruling out advanced algebra and calculus. I think its still true that a mind capable of appreciating Euclid's 5th can learn much of mathematics (ancient and modern), and a mind that can't get it is probably best off hoping for a football scholarship. And of course footballers are paid more than mathematicians, so who is the a$$ anyway :( ? 
Posts: 2,753
Add as Friend Challenge to a Debate Send a Message 
2/12/2016 5:00:43 AM Posted: 1 year ago At 2/11/2016 9:33:51 PM, RuvDraba wrote:Wow, he's working in a startup as well :O No wonder why he's busy. I'd like to do that too  hopefully, after I declare CS as my second major, I'll be able to find internship positions in tech startups...At 2/11/2016 2:49:13 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:I miss him too, but he's a busy boy, completing a PhD and working in a startup when last I heard. :)At 2/10/2016 6:51:47 PM, RuvDraba wrote:Haha, no worries. I read your discussions from time to time  I think I've read your posts on and off since you joined  and I understand what you mean. (Pity that UndeniableReality isn't on DDO any more, btw. :( )At 2/10/2016 6:02:55 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:You're right, DC! You did, and I overlooked that in part because I was having another conversation (in fact several) your question pinged off intuitively. Consequently, I got quite a lot from my own contribution, while contributing nothing to your topic. My apologies! Haha, I think this proof is actually easier than Euclid's...Yes, Pappus has a fun one that uses only one triangle viewed two different ways. [http://www.themathpage.com...] It has sometimes been called an 'Irish bull' proof  because the triangle is in two places at once. :D [https://en.wikipedia.org...]I don't think there's no simpler example  Euclid's proof involved three pairs of congruent triangles, and I think there are proofs that are easier than that.Which mathematical concept do you think could play the same role that Euclid's proof did in Ancient Greece?I think the point of a pons asinorum is to set a bar below which it's not worth doing even remedial education. How tall must you be to go on the ride? By way of explanation, the obscure term 'Irish bull' normally applies to witty but contradictory aphorisms like:Reminds me of Goldwynisms :P In the TV animation series Archer, the spy Archer has a cyborg nemesis called Barry  who often engages in dialogue with himself as 'other Barry'. I think Pappus' proof is like that  an isoceles triangle talking to the other isoceles triangle with the same sides and angles as itself. :DYeah, Euler's formula is the obvious route :P Though proving Euler's formula (to reduce this to more elementary axioms) would be harder, as it's not mere substitution.I think the pons asinorum needs to be a simple, irreducible algebraic problem with the same sort of ambiguity as the isoceles triangle problem, requiring the same cutthrough intuitions, but like the triangle problem, having few moving parts.Haha, I agree with all those, particularly the last line. :) Yet I still like the linear algebra example simply because just about anyone with high school math can attempt it, yet (I suspect) few can complete it despite its apparent simplicity.Thanks :)3x3 because it has just enough moving parts to bewilder, not so many that you can't see that there ought to be a way of solving it, nor so few that you can be immediately confident there's only one solution, and enough combinations that it's hard to guess by trial and error. :) I think it is well established that the only reason aliens come to earth is to slice up cows and examine inside peoples' bottoms. Unless you are a cow or suffer haemerrhoids I don't think there is anything to worry about from aliens.  keithprosser Don't be a stat cynic: http://www.debate.org... Response to conservative views on deforestation: http://www.debate.org... Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com... 
Posts: 2,753
Add as Friend Challenge to a Debate Send a Message 
2/12/2016 5:05:53 AM Posted: 1 year ago At 2/11/2016 10:00:19 PM, keithprosser wrote:Well, I think Euclid's fifth does still require some knowledge of the previous axioms and theorems as well as simpler maths. Euclid's proof may seem simple for modern humans (taught at the age of 1213), but for the Ancient Greeks, it may already be pretty advanced, and probably represented a transition to higher mathematics comparable to the transition from trigonometry and elementary algebra to calculus and linear algebra today. Just my take on this ;) I think its still true that a mind capable of appreciating Euclid's 5th can learn much of mathematics (ancient and modern), and a mind that can't get it is probably best off hoping for a football scholarship. And of course footballers are paid more than mathematicians, so who is the a$$ anyway :( ?Aww, don't say that. You don't have to be a mathematician by profession to appreciate the beauty of maths (I'm not a mathematics major myself). Lorenz, Feigenbaum, etc. are not mathematicians by profession either, but their contributions to maths are immense. I think even footballers can benefit from mathematics sometimes... I think it is well established that the only reason aliens come to earth is to slice up cows and examine inside peoples' bottoms. Unless you are a cow or suffer haemerrhoids I don't think there is anything to worry about from aliens.  keithprosser Don't be a stat cynic: http://www.debate.org... Response to conservative views on deforestation: http://www.debate.org... Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com... 
Posts: 5,157
Add as Friend Challenge to a Debate Send a Message 
2/12/2016 6:29:55 PM Posted: 1 year ago I think even footballers can benefit from mathematics sometimes..
For working out their salaries? http://www.businessinsider.com... 
Posts: 6,800
Add as Friend Challenge to a Debate Send a Message 
2/13/2016 4:00:24 AM Posted: 1 year ago At 2/10/2016 7:53:38 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote: ^This "Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe."  Frederick Douglass http://gotejas.com... 