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Where does "human"ness end?

Indophile
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11/4/2010 1:01:56 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It's not that difficult to envisage a future where our biological bodies might be enhanced with technological add-ons.

It's already in place, viz. pacemakers, artificial limbs, etc.

At what point do we cross the stage of "humanity"? Or would that never occur? Even if we had mechanical hearts, brain supplementing apparatus, etc.?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/4/2010 1:10:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/4/2010 1:01:56 PM, Indophile wrote:
It's not that difficult to envisage a future where our biological bodies might be enhanced with technological add-ons.

It's already in place, viz. pacemakers, artificial limbs, etc.

At what point do we cross the stage of "humanity"? Or would that never occur? Even if we had mechanical hearts, brain supplementing apparatus, etc.?

Once we get to parts of the brain thatt effect our thinking, memories, and emotion. IMO.

If we ever implement technology to alter that, then we are altering who we are and what makes us, "us." I am my personality and my thoughts.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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11/4/2010 1:14:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/4/2010 1:10:18 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 11/4/2010 1:01:56 PM, Indophile wrote:
It's not that difficult to envisage a future where our biological bodies might be enhanced with technological add-ons.

It's already in place, viz. pacemakers, artificial limbs, etc.

At what point do we cross the stage of "humanity"? Or would that never occur? Even if we had mechanical hearts, brain supplementing apparatus, etc.?

Once we get to parts of the brain thatt effect our thinking, memories, and emotion. IMO.

If we ever implement technology to alter that, then we are altering who we are and what makes us, "us." I am my personality and my thoughts.

I'd also like to think that, but then we come across diseases like Alzheimer's. So, according to this definition, people with those conditions are not "human" anymore. (Although, we didn't use technology to alter those, but disease did).
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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11/4/2010 1:28:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
When the subject entity didn't have the DNA attributed to the species "human" at creation/birth.

In the chromosomes just like were "woman"ness or "man"ness end.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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11/4/2010 1:33:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/4/2010 1:28:00 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
When the subject entity didn't have the DNA attributed to the species "human" at creation/birth.

In the chromosomes just like were "woman"ness or "man"ness end.

Oh, so if we are born human, then no matter how we change, we'll always remain human? Or do you mean to say, if we change our chromosomes, then we won't be human anymore, in the strict sense?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/4/2010 2:05:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/4/2010 1:14:02 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 11/4/2010 1:10:18 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 11/4/2010 1:01:56 PM, Indophile wrote:
It's not that difficult to envisage a future where our biological bodies might be enhanced with technological add-ons.

It's already in place, viz. pacemakers, artificial limbs, etc.

At what point do we cross the stage of "humanity"? Or would that never occur? Even if we had mechanical hearts, brain supplementing apparatus, etc.?

Once we get to parts of the brain thatt effect our thinking, memories, and emotion. IMO.

If we ever implement technology to alter that, then we are altering who we are and what makes us, "us." I am my personality and my thoughts.

I'd also like to think that, but then we come across diseases like Alzheimer's. So, according to this definition, people with those conditions are not "human" anymore. (Although, we didn't use technology to alter those, but disease did).

They are still "human" but they are not really themselves anymore.

I appologize. When you said "human" I assumed you meant it as a philosophical meaning, as opposed to a scientific meaning.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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11/4/2010 2:06:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/4/2010 2:05:25 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 11/4/2010 1:14:02 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 11/4/2010 1:10:18 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 11/4/2010 1:01:56 PM, Indophile wrote:
It's not that difficult to envisage a future where our biological bodies might be enhanced with technological add-ons.

It's already in place, viz. pacemakers, artificial limbs, etc.

At what point do we cross the stage of "humanity"? Or would that never occur? Even if we had mechanical hearts, brain supplementing apparatus, etc.?

Once we get to parts of the brain thatt effect our thinking, memories, and emotion. IMO.

If we ever implement technology to alter that, then we are altering who we are and what makes us, "us." I am my personality and my thoughts.

I'd also like to think that, but then we come across diseases like Alzheimer's. So, according to this definition, people with those conditions are not "human" anymore. (Although, we didn't use technology to alter those, but disease did).

They are still "human" but they are not really themselves anymore.

I appologize. When you said "human" I assumed you meant it as a philosophical meaning, as opposed to a scientific meaning.

Are you saying there's a scientific definition and a philosophical definition of what's a human? And that they are both different?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/4/2010 2:39:52 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/4/2010 2:06:59 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 11/4/2010 2:05:25 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 11/4/2010 1:14:02 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 11/4/2010 1:10:18 PM, OreEle wrote:
At 11/4/2010 1:01:56 PM, Indophile wrote:
It's not that difficult to envisage a future where our biological bodies might be enhanced with technological add-ons.

It's already in place, viz. pacemakers, artificial limbs, etc.

At what point do we cross the stage of "humanity"? Or would that never occur? Even if we had mechanical hearts, brain supplementing apparatus, etc.?

Once we get to parts of the brain thatt effect our thinking, memories, and emotion. IMO.

If we ever implement technology to alter that, then we are altering who we are and what makes us, "us." I am my personality and my thoughts.

I'd also like to think that, but then we come across diseases like Alzheimer's. So, according to this definition, people with those conditions are not "human" anymore. (Although, we didn't use technology to alter those, but disease did).

They are still "human" but they are not really themselves anymore.

I appologize. When you said "human" I assumed you meant it as a philosophical meaning, as opposed to a scientific meaning.

Are you saying there's a scientific definition and a philosophical definition of what's a human? And that they are both different?

Scientifically, it is have DNA that puts others into the same species as us. Ancient philosophers have tried to define us by our abilities to think and reason.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
SuperRobotWars
Posts: 3,906
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11/4/2010 4:06:11 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
What about natural evolution?
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/4/2010 4:06:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/4/2010 4:06:11 PM, SuperRobotWars wrote:
What about natural evolution?

What about it?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Veridas
Posts: 733
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11/5/2010 11:03:35 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/4/2010 1:01:56 PM, Indophile wrote:
It's not that difficult to envisage a future where our biological bodies might be enhanced with technological add-ons.

It's already in place, viz. pacemakers, artificial limbs, etc.

At what point do we cross the stage of "humanity"? Or would that never occur? Even if we had mechanical hearts, brain supplementing apparatus, etc.?

Humanity ends when we lose the ability to feel a specific emotion. That is not to say that people that undergo horrible abuse as children and who become unable to express compassion or love aren't human, they have simply lost their humanity. Humanity is the ability to think and feel both for yourself and others, introduction of machines into the body will, on a large enough scale, begin to erode at emotion as things like suffering or joy become things you can no longer feel. After that, slippery slope.
What fresh dickery is the internet up to today?
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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11/5/2010 11:08:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/5/2010 11:03:35 AM, Veridas wrote:
At 11/4/2010 1:01:56 PM, Indophile wrote:
It's not that difficult to envisage a future where our biological bodies might be enhanced with technological add-ons.

It's already in place, viz. pacemakers, artificial limbs, etc.

At what point do we cross the stage of "humanity"? Or would that never occur? Even if we had mechanical hearts, brain supplementing apparatus, etc.?

Humanity ends when we lose the ability to feel a specific emotion. That is not to say that people that undergo horrible abuse as children and who become unable to express compassion or love aren't human, they have simply lost their humanity. Humanity is the ability to think and feel both for yourself and others, introduction of machines into the body will, on a large enough scale, begin to erode at emotion as things like suffering or joy become things you can no longer feel. After that, slippery slope.

But emotions are conceptualized and "lived" in the brain and have hardly anything to do with the body.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/5/2010 11:19:51 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/5/2010 11:08:02 AM, Indophile wrote:
At 11/5/2010 11:03:35 AM, Veridas wrote:
At 11/4/2010 1:01:56 PM, Indophile wrote:
It's not that difficult to envisage a future where our biological bodies might be enhanced with technological add-ons.

It's already in place, viz. pacemakers, artificial limbs, etc.

At what point do we cross the stage of "humanity"? Or would that never occur? Even if we had mechanical hearts, brain supplementing apparatus, etc.?

Humanity ends when we lose the ability to feel a specific emotion. That is not to say that people that undergo horrible abuse as children and who become unable to express compassion or love aren't human, they have simply lost their humanity. Humanity is the ability to think and feel both for yourself and others, introduction of machines into the body will, on a large enough scale, begin to erode at emotion as things like suffering or joy become things you can no longer feel. After that, slippery slope.

But emotions are conceptualized and "lived" in the brain and have hardly anything to do with the body.

True, but if you can rip someone's arm off, and science can just go get them a new one, just like new, that can alter your perception of the action of ripping their arm off. It alters the consequences of the action and so alters the emotional feelings of doing it.

Note, this is just an example.

Imagine if you could burn someone's house down and it could be rebuilt, 100%, in 24 hours, and didn't cost more then $3.50. There would be much less guilt (and other emotions) about burning that house down. Now, replace "house" with human body.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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11/5/2010 11:21:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/5/2010 11:19:51 AM, OreEle wrote:
At 11/5/2010 11:08:02 AM, Indophile wrote:
At 11/5/2010 11:03:35 AM, Veridas wrote:
At 11/4/2010 1:01:56 PM, Indophile wrote:
It's not that difficult to envisage a future where our biological bodies might be enhanced with technological add-ons.

It's already in place, viz. pacemakers, artificial limbs, etc.

At what point do we cross the stage of "humanity"? Or would that never occur? Even if we had mechanical hearts, brain supplementing apparatus, etc.?

Humanity ends when we lose the ability to feel a specific emotion. That is not to say that people that undergo horrible abuse as children and who become unable to express compassion or love aren't human, they have simply lost their humanity. Humanity is the ability to think and feel both for yourself and others, introduction of machines into the body will, on a large enough scale, begin to erode at emotion as things like suffering or joy become things you can no longer feel. After that, slippery slope.

But emotions are conceptualized and "lived" in the brain and have hardly anything to do with the body.

True, but if you can rip someone's arm off, and science can just go get them a new one, just like new, that can alter your perception of the action of ripping their arm off. It alters the consequences of the action and so alters the emotional feelings of doing it.

Note, this is just an example.

Imagine if you could burn someone's house down and it could be rebuilt, 100%, in 24 hours, and didn't cost more then $3.50. There would be much less guilt (and other emotions) about burning that house down. Now, replace "house" with human body.

Exactly. So, our emotions (which are basically perceptions of things happening to us) cannot be what defines us as human?
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
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11/5/2010 1:01:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/4/2010 1:33:04 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 11/4/2010 1:28:00 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
When the subject entity didn't have the DNA attributed to the species "human" at creation/birth.

In the chromosomes just like were "woman"ness or "man"ness end.

Oh, so if we are born human, then no matter how we change, we'll always remain human? Or do you mean to say, if we change our chromosomes, then we won't be human anymore, in the strict sense?
Yes.

If you go past this you won't be you.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/5/2010 1:11:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/5/2010 1:01:39 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 11/4/2010 1:33:04 PM, Indophile wrote:
At 11/4/2010 1:28:00 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
When the subject entity didn't have the DNA attributed to the species "human" at creation/birth.

In the chromosomes just like were "woman"ness or "man"ness end.

Oh, so if we are born human, then no matter how we change, we'll always remain human? Or do you mean to say, if we change our chromosomes, then we won't be human anymore, in the strict sense?
Yes.

If you go past this you won't be you.

Then you have to define the chromosomes that make a human. Is it simply having 26 (we are the only animal that has 26), is it the DNA within the chromosomes? Is it particlar strands of DNA within them (my preference)?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
belle
Posts: 4,113
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11/5/2010 1:52:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/4/2010 1:28:00 PM, Zetsubou wrote:
When the subject entity didn't have the DNA attributed to the species "human" at creation/birth.

In the chromosomes just like were "woman"ness or "man"ness end.

theres nothing on a gene that renders it "human" rather than any other species. how many changes in dna until something isn't human anymore?
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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11/6/2010 8:50:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
This question has meaning only when considering the implications of such a definition. For example, is there a threshold for how much someone can change before he or she compromises his or her rights, liberties, etc.?

In this regard, I believe that no one should ever lose their perceived humanity.

Otherwise, a person is a person, however altered.

So, I guess the answer is that a person remains human either way.
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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11/7/2010 5:20:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/6/2010 8:50:34 AM, Ren wrote:
This question has meaning only when considering the implications of such a definition. For example, is there a threshold for how much someone can change before he or she compromises his or her rights, liberties, etc.?

In this regard, I believe that no one should ever lose their perceived humanity.

Otherwise, a person is a person, however altered.

So, I guess the answer is that a person remains human either way.

I will thus implant my human cells into my cat so that anyone who runs him over with a car is guilty of manslaughter. That's a good incentive to drive more carefully.

But then the same person couldn't be tried for killing me - double jeopardy.

Bad idea...
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
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11/7/2010 5:46:40 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Anyone who has mechanical parts is a cyborg, including your old uncle with the plastic leg, but they're still human.

"Human"ness ends when we no longer exist in any way, shape or form. If I could have my mind in all its complexity transfered into a computer program and control a mechanical body, I would still be human(homo penitus mechina, lol). It would simply be a form of unnatural evolution.
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Indophile
Posts: 1,414
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11/8/2010 11:04:11 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/7/2010 5:46:40 PM, tvellalott wrote:
Anyone who has mechanical parts is a cyborg, including your old uncle with the plastic leg, but they're still human.

"Human"ness ends when we no longer exist in any way, shape or form. If I could have my mind in all its complexity transfered into a computer program and control a mechanical body, I would still be human(homo penitus mechina, lol). It would simply be a form of unnatural evolution.

So "human"ness ends with death.
You will say that I don't really know you
And it will be true.