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About Evolution

TRap
Posts: 46
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3/6/2016 5:08:52 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 4:53:26 AM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 4:27:07 AM, TRap wrote:
Why are zebras B&W?

You did this one already.

I did not get answer back then.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/6/2016 5:13:29 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 5:08:52 AM, TRap wrote:
At 3/6/2016 4:53:26 AM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 4:27:07 AM, TRap wrote:
Why are zebras B&W?

You did this one already.

I did not get answer back then.

You got several.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com...

There are a number of hypothesizes. I doubt you will get anyone to claim there is a definitive one, but each have reason to back.

Now. What is the reason for the question?
Akhenaten
Posts: 854
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3/6/2016 7:22:57 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
The optical illusion theory is the most logical conclusion. When in a herd, the stripes will create confusion for the lions who want know where the zebras vital organs are. Thus, the lions will most likely fail in their hunt because they grabbed the wrong end of the zebra and got a kick in the jaw for their trouble. The video shows a lion hunting a single zebra. This video is not a good example, because the zebra is stupid and strayed from the herd. A video of a lion attacking a herd of zebras would most likely show a high failure rate.
TRap
Posts: 46
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3/6/2016 8:20:28 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 7:22:57 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
The optical illusion theory is the most logical conclusion. When in a herd, the stripes will create confusion for the lions who want know where the zebras vital organs are. Thus, the lions will most likely fail in their hunt because they grabbed the wrong end of the zebra and got a kick in the jaw for their trouble. The video shows a lion hunting a single zebra. This video is not a good example, because the zebra is stupid and strayed from the herd. A video of a lion attacking a herd of zebras would most likely show a high failure rate.

Tell me Akhenaten, why should Not I assume that the predator, the lion is eventually going to develop a new 'super vision' to counter Zebra ' B&W color. Also, tell me how do the skin of Zebra figured out the limitations of Lion's vision and could change according to that?
Akhenaten
Posts: 854
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3/6/2016 10:17:46 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 8:20:28 AM, TRap wrote:


Tell me Akhenaten, why should Not I assume that the predator, the lion is eventually going to develop a new 'super vision' to counter Zebra ' B&W color. Also, tell me how do the skin of Zebra figured out the limitations of Lion's vision and could change according to that?

The zebra gradually evolved the stripes over millions of years. It was natural selection. The lions could'n't catch the zebras that had better defined stripes. Thus, over a period of millions of years, the zebras gradually became more and more striped. The zebras that didn't have stripes were eaten by the lions. Thus, they never passed on their non-striped genes. Lions may gradually become smarter and better adapted to the zebras stripes. The video demonstrates that lions tend to play a waiting game for one zebra to leave the herd before striking. thus, the lions have outsmarted the zebras. This will cause the zebras to become smarter and wiser over time as well. Thus, evolution is slowing increasing the overall intelligence of all animals over time. Humans are just the first species to evolve super intelligence. Given sufficient time, all animal species will eventually become more and more intelligent.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/6/2016 2:21:55 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 8:20:28 AM, TRap wrote:
At 3/6/2016 7:22:57 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
The optical illusion theory is the most logical conclusion. When in a herd, the stripes will create confusion for the lions who want know where the zebras vital organs are. Thus, the lions will most likely fail in their hunt because they grabbed the wrong end of the zebra and got a kick in the jaw for their trouble. The video shows a lion hunting a single zebra. This video is not a good example, because the zebra is stupid and strayed from the herd. A video of a lion attacking a herd of zebras would most likely show a high failure rate.

Tell me Akhenaten, why should Not I assume that the predator, the lion is eventually going to develop a new 'super vision' to counter Zebra ' B&W color. Also, tell me how do the skin of Zebra figured out the limitations of Lion's vision and could change according to that?

1) The Lion will continue to evolve.
2) If some adaptation in vision helps the Lion survive/thrive that trait will be carried forward in subsequent generations.
3) The skin of the Zebra knows nothing. If some "change" was beneficial or neutral it will carry forward the change too.

Ask some new questions. You should understand these points well enough at this point. They have been explained to you several times.
Akhenaten
Posts: 854
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3/7/2016 7:30:28 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 2:21:55 PM, TBR wrote:

1) The Lion will continue to evolve.
2) If some adaptation in vision helps the Lion survive/thrive that trait will be carried forward in subsequent generations.
3) The skin of the Zebra knows nothing. If some "change" was beneficial or neutral it will carry forward the change too.

Ask some new questions. You should understand these points well enough at this point. They have been explained to you several times.

1) The zebra will continue to evolve.
2) If some adaptation in vision helps the Zebra survive/thrive that trait will be carried forward in subsequent generations.
3) Evolution is just a mathematical progression. It doesn't have an awareness/ consciousness.
Tela
Posts: 79
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3/7/2016 2:36:22 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 2:21:55 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 8:20:28 AM, TRap wrote:
At 3/6/2016 7:22:57 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
The optical illusion theory is the most logical conclusion. When in a herd, the stripes will create confusion for the lions who want know where the zebras vital organs are. Thus, the lions will most likely fail in their hunt because they grabbed the wrong end of the zebra and got a kick in the jaw for their trouble. The video shows a lion hunting a single zebra. This video is not a good example, because the zebra is stupid and strayed from the herd. A video of a lion attacking a herd of zebras would most likely show a high failure rate.

Tell me Akhenaten, why should Not I assume that the predator, the lion is eventually going to develop a new 'super vision' to counter Zebra ' B&W color. Also, tell me how do the skin of Zebra figured out the limitations of Lion's vision and could change according to that?

1) The Lion will continue to evolve.
2) If some adaptation in vision helps the Lion survive/thrive that trait will be carried forward in subsequent generations.
3) The skin of the Zebra knows nothing. If some "change" was beneficial or neutral it will carry forward the change too.

Ask some new questions. You should understand these points well enough at this point. They have been explained to you several times.

TREssspa here. Why does your theory presume that the vision of lion is Not 'co-evolving' with zebra?
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/7/2016 3:09:19 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 2:36:22 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:21:55 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 8:20:28 AM, TRap wrote:
At 3/6/2016 7:22:57 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
The optical illusion theory is the most logical conclusion. When in a herd, the stripes will create confusion for the lions who want know where the zebras vital organs are. Thus, the lions will most likely fail in their hunt because they grabbed the wrong end of the zebra and got a kick in the jaw for their trouble. The video shows a lion hunting a single zebra. This video is not a good example, because the zebra is stupid and strayed from the herd. A video of a lion attacking a herd of zebras would most likely show a high failure rate.

Tell me Akhenaten, why should Not I assume that the predator, the lion is eventually going to develop a new 'super vision' to counter Zebra ' B&W color. Also, tell me how do the skin of Zebra figured out the limitations of Lion's vision and could change according to that?

1) The Lion will continue to evolve.
2) If some adaptation in vision helps the Lion survive/thrive that trait will be carried forward in subsequent generations.
3) The skin of the Zebra knows nothing. If some "change" was beneficial or neutral it will carry forward the change too.

Ask some new questions. You should understand these points well enough at this point. They have been explained to you several times.

TREssspa here. Why does your theory presume that the vision of lion is Not 'co-evolving' with zebra?

They are evolving, however, there is no "path" for evolution in the way you might want to think. If the vision of the lion is sufficient to hunt and live successfully, there is no pressure there.
Tela
Posts: 79
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3/7/2016 3:33:46 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 3:09:19 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 2:36:22 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:21:55 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 8:20:28 AM, TRap wrote:
At 3/6/2016 7:22:57 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
The optical illusion theory is the most logical conclusion. When in a herd, the stripes will create confusion for the lions who want know where the zebras vital organs are. Thus, the lions will most likely fail in their hunt because they grabbed the wrong end of the zebra and got a kick in the jaw for their trouble. The video shows a lion hunting a single zebra. This video is not a good example, because the zebra is stupid and strayed from the herd. A video of a lion attacking a herd of zebras would most likely show a high failure rate.

Tell me Akhenaten, why should Not I assume that the predator, the lion is eventually going to develop a new 'super vision' to counter Zebra ' B&W color. Also, tell me how do the skin of Zebra figured out the limitations of Lion's vision and could change according to that?

1) The Lion will continue to evolve.
2) If some adaptation in vision helps the Lion survive/thrive that trait will be carried forward in subsequent generations.
3) The skin of the Zebra knows nothing. If some "change" was beneficial or neutral it will carry forward the change too.

Ask some new questions. You should understand these points well enough at this point. They have been explained to you several times.

TREssspa here. Why does your theory presume that the vision of lion is Not 'co-evolving' with zebra?

They are evolving, however, there is no "path" for evolution in the way you might want to think. If the vision of the lion is sufficient to hunt and live successfully, there is no pressure there.

You mean pressure derives evolution? or is evolution inevitable?
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/7/2016 3:52:48 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 3:33:46 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:09:19 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 2:36:22 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:21:55 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 8:20:28 AM, TRap wrote:
At 3/6/2016 7:22:57 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
The optical illusion theory is the most logical conclusion. When in a herd, the stripes will create confusion for the lions who want know where the zebras vital organs are. Thus, the lions will most likely fail in their hunt because they grabbed the wrong end of the zebra and got a kick in the jaw for their trouble. The video shows a lion hunting a single zebra. This video is not a good example, because the zebra is stupid and strayed from the herd. A video of a lion attacking a herd of zebras would most likely show a high failure rate.

Tell me Akhenaten, why should Not I assume that the predator, the lion is eventually going to develop a new 'super vision' to counter Zebra ' B&W color. Also, tell me how do the skin of Zebra figured out the limitations of Lion's vision and could change according to that?

1) The Lion will continue to evolve.
2) If some adaptation in vision helps the Lion survive/thrive that trait will be carried forward in subsequent generations.
3) The skin of the Zebra knows nothing. If some "change" was beneficial or neutral it will carry forward the change too.

Ask some new questions. You should understand these points well enough at this point. They have been explained to you several times.

TREssspa here. Why does your theory presume that the vision of lion is Not 'co-evolving' with zebra?

They are evolving, however, there is no "path" for evolution in the way you might want to think. If the vision of the lion is sufficient to hunt and live successfully, there is no pressure there.

You mean pressure derives evolution? or is evolution inevitable?

Pressures is what drives evolution, yes. You CAN say evolution is inevitable, just because it is very unlikely to remain static, but there is NO direct path as I have said. If there is no reason (pressure) to select better eyesight then that may not necessarily happen.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/7/2016 3:57:26 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 3:33:46 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:09:19 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 2:36:22 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:21:55 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 8:20:28 AM, TRap wrote:
At 3/6/2016 7:22:57 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
The optical illusion theory is the most logical conclusion. When in a herd, the stripes will create confusion for the lions who want know where the zebras vital organs are. Thus, the lions will most likely fail in their hunt because they grabbed the wrong end of the zebra and got a kick in the jaw for their trouble. The video shows a lion hunting a single zebra. This video is not a good example, because the zebra is stupid and strayed from the herd. A video of a lion attacking a herd of zebras would most likely show a high failure rate.

Tell me Akhenaten, why should Not I assume that the predator, the lion is eventually going to develop a new 'super vision' to counter Zebra ' B&W color. Also, tell me how do the skin of Zebra figured out the limitations of Lion's vision and could change according to that?

1) The Lion will continue to evolve.
2) If some adaptation in vision helps the Lion survive/thrive that trait will be carried forward in subsequent generations.
3) The skin of the Zebra knows nothing. If some "change" was beneficial or neutral it will carry forward the change too.

Ask some new questions. You should understand these points well enough at this point. They have been explained to you several times.

TREssspa here. Why does your theory presume that the vision of lion is Not 'co-evolving' with zebra?

They are evolving, however, there is no "path" for evolution in the way you might want to think. If the vision of the lion is sufficient to hunt and live successfully, there is no pressure there.

You mean pressure derives evolution? or is evolution inevitable?

Lets turn this on its head to better illustrate. If the environment changed suddenly in a way that BETTER eyesight was a disadvantage, the lions who had WORSE eyesight would be better suited for the new environment, and prosper. So, the idea that the lion is on some path to what we perceive as "better" is foolish thinking. The lion is only responding to the environment it exists in.
Harikrish
Posts: 11,005
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3/7/2016 4:41:13 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 4:53:26 AM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 4:27:07 AM, TRap wrote:
Why are zebras B&W?

You did this one already.

There are no zebras in India.
Tela
Posts: 79
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3/7/2016 4:48:16 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 3:57:26 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:33:46 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:09:19 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 2:36:22 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:21:55 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 8:20:28 AM, TRap wrote:
At 3/6/2016 7:22:57 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
The optical illusion theory is the most logical conclusion. When in a herd, the stripes will create confusion for the lions who want know where the zebras vital organs are. Thus, the lions will most likely fail in their hunt because they grabbed the wrong end of the zebra and got a kick in the jaw for their trouble. The video shows a lion hunting a single zebra. This video is not a good example, because the zebra is stupid and strayed from the herd. A video of a lion attacking a herd of zebras would most likely show a high failure rate.

Tell me Akhenaten, why should Not I assume that the predator, the lion is eventually going to develop a new 'super vision' to counter Zebra ' B&W color. Also, tell me how do the skin of Zebra figured out the limitations of Lion's vision and could change according to that?

1) The Lion will continue to evolve.
2) If some adaptation in vision helps the Lion survive/thrive that trait will be carried forward in subsequent generations.
3) The skin of the Zebra knows nothing. If some "change" was beneficial or neutral it will carry forward the change too.

Ask some new questions. You should understand these points well enough at this point. They have been explained to you several times.

TREssspa here. Why does your theory presume that the vision of lion is Not 'co-evolving' with zebra?

They are evolving, however, there is no "path" for evolution in the way you might want to think. If the vision of the lion is sufficient to hunt and live successfully, there is no pressure there.

You mean pressure derives evolution? or is evolution inevitable?

Lets turn this on its head to better illustrate. If the environment changed suddenly in a way that BETTER eyesight was a disadvantage, the lions who had WORSE eyesight would be better suited for the new environment, and prosper. So, the idea that the lion is on some path to what we perceive as "better" is foolish thinking. The lion is only responding to the environment it exists in.

I understand the fact that lions who had 'worse' eyesight would flourish. But, are you assured that the offsprings would inherit that particular trait ('worse' eyesight) ?
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/7/2016 4:53:25 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 4:48:16 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:57:26 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:33:46 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:09:19 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 2:36:22 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:21:55 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 8:20:28 AM, TRap wrote:
At 3/6/2016 7:22:57 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
The optical illusion theory is the most logical conclusion. When in a herd, the stripes will create confusion for the lions who want know where the zebras vital organs are. Thus, the lions will most likely fail in their hunt because they grabbed the wrong end of the zebra and got a kick in the jaw for their trouble. The video shows a lion hunting a single zebra. This video is not a good example, because the zebra is stupid and strayed from the herd. A video of a lion attacking a herd of zebras would most likely show a high failure rate.

Tell me Akhenaten, why should Not I assume that the predator, the lion is eventually going to develop a new 'super vision' to counter Zebra ' B&W color. Also, tell me how do the skin of Zebra figured out the limitations of Lion's vision and could change according to that?

1) The Lion will continue to evolve.
2) If some adaptation in vision helps the Lion survive/thrive that trait will be carried forward in subsequent generations.
3) The skin of the Zebra knows nothing. If some "change" was beneficial or neutral it will carry forward the change too.

Ask some new questions. You should understand these points well enough at this point. They have been explained to you several times.

TREssspa here. Why does your theory presume that the vision of lion is Not 'co-evolving' with zebra?

They are evolving, however, there is no "path" for evolution in the way you might want to think. If the vision of the lion is sufficient to hunt and live successfully, there is no pressure there.

You mean pressure derives evolution? or is evolution inevitable?

Lets turn this on its head to better illustrate. If the environment changed suddenly in a way that BETTER eyesight was a disadvantage, the lions who had WORSE eyesight would be better suited for the new environment, and prosper. So, the idea that the lion is on some path to what we perceive as "better" is foolish thinking. The lion is only responding to the environment it exists in.

I understand the fact that lions who had 'worse' eyesight would flourish. But, are you assured that the offsprings would inherit that particular trait ('worse' eyesight) ?

If (as in this hypothetical) worse eyesight was a better fit for the environment, yes that would happen.
Tela
Posts: 79
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3/7/2016 4:54:19 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 3:57:26 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:33:46 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:09:19 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 2:36:22 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:21:55 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 8:20:28 AM, TRap wrote:
At 3/6/2016 7:22:57 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
The optical illusion theory is the most logical conclusion. When in a herd, the stripes will create confusion for the lions who want know where the zebras vital organs are. Thus, the lions will most likely fail in their hunt because they grabbed the wrong end of the zebra and got a kick in the jaw for their trouble. The video shows a lion hunting a single zebra. This video is not a good example, because the zebra is stupid and strayed from the herd. A video of a lion attacking a herd of zebras would most likely show a high failure rate.

Tell me Akhenaten, why should Not I assume that the predator, the lion is eventually going to develop a new 'super vision' to counter Zebra ' B&W color. Also, tell me how do the skin of Zebra figured out the limitations of Lion's vision and could change according to that?

1) The Lion will continue to evolve.
2) If some adaptation in vision helps the Lion survive/thrive that trait will be carried forward in subsequent generations.
3) The skin of the Zebra knows nothing. If some "change" was beneficial or neutral it will carry forward the change too.

Ask some new questions. You should understand these points well enough at this point. They have been explained to you several times.

TREssspa here. Why does your theory presume that the vision of lion is Not 'co-evolving' with zebra?

They are evolving, however, there is no "path" for evolution in the way you might want to think. If the vision of the lion is sufficient to hunt and live successfully, there is no pressure there.

You mean pressure derives evolution? or is evolution inevitable?

Lets turn this on its head to better illustrate. If the environment changed suddenly in a way that BETTER eyesight was a disadvantage, the lions who had WORSE eyesight would be better suited for the new environment, and prosper. So, the idea that the lion is on some path to what we perceive as "better" is foolish thinking. The lion is only responding to the environment it exists in.

# 17 was my first point.

My second question is that Is it Not true that natural selection can happen only when their are different choices / varieties? In that case, why have evolutionists failed miserably to demonstrate one single case of positive mutation?
Tela
Posts: 79
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3/7/2016 4:56:46 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 4:53:25 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 4:48:16 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:57:26 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:33:46 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:09:19 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 2:36:22 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:21:55 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 8:20:28 AM, TRap wrote:
At 3/6/2016 7:22:57 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
The optical illusion theory is the most logical conclusion. When in a herd, the stripes will create confusion for the lions who want know where the zebras vital organs are. Thus, the lions will most likely fail in their hunt because they grabbed the wrong end of the zebra and got a kick in the jaw for their trouble. The video shows a lion hunting a single zebra. This video is not a good example, because the zebra is stupid and strayed from the herd. A video of a lion attacking a herd of zebras would most likely show a high failure rate.

Tell me Akhenaten, why should Not I assume that the predator, the lion is eventually going to develop a new 'super vision' to counter Zebra ' B&W color. Also, tell me how do the skin of Zebra figured out the limitations of Lion's vision and could change according to that?

1) The Lion will continue to evolve.
2) If some adaptation in vision helps the Lion survive/thrive that trait will be carried forward in subsequent generations.
3) The skin of the Zebra knows nothing. If some "change" was beneficial or neutral it will carry forward the change too.

Ask some new questions. You should understand these points well enough at this point. They have been explained to you several times.

TREssspa here. Why does your theory presume that the vision of lion is Not 'co-evolving' with zebra?

They are evolving, however, there is no "path" for evolution in the way you might want to think. If the vision of the lion is sufficient to hunt and live successfully, there is no pressure there.

You mean pressure derives evolution? or is evolution inevitable?

Lets turn this on its head to better illustrate. If the environment changed suddenly in a way that BETTER eyesight was a disadvantage, the lions who had WORSE eyesight would be better suited for the new environment, and prosper. So, the idea that the lion is on some path to what we perceive as "better" is foolish thinking. The lion is only responding to the environment it exists in.

I understand the fact that lions who had 'worse' eyesight would flourish. But, are you assured that the offsprings would inherit that particular trait ('worse' eyesight) ?

If (as in this hypothetical) worse eyesight was a better fit for the environment, yes that would happen.

How can they pass this particular trait to the next generation, that's what I have asked.
Tela
Posts: 79
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3/7/2016 5:11:36 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/6/2016 10:17:46 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
At 3/6/2016 8:20:28 AM, TRap wrote:


Tell me Akhenaten, why should Not I assume that the predator, the lion is eventually going to develop a new 'super vision' to counter Zebra ' B&W color. Also, tell me how do the skin of Zebra figured out the limitations of Lion's vision and could change according to that?

The zebra gradually evolved the stripes over millions of years. It was natural selection. The lions could'n't catch the zebras that had better defined stripes. Thus, over a period of millions of years, the zebras gradually became more and more striped. The zebras that didn't have stripes were eaten by the lions. Thus, they never passed on their non-striped genes. Lions may gradually become smarter and better adapted to the zebras stripes. The video demonstrates that lions tend to play a waiting game for one zebra to leave the herd before striking. thus, the lions have outsmarted the zebras. This will cause the zebras to become smarter and wiser over time as well. Thus, evolution is slowing increasing the overall intelligence of all animals over time. Humans are just the first species to evolve super intelligence. Given sufficient time, all animal species will eventually become more and more intelligent.

Where does this come from?
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/7/2016 5:13:39 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 4:56:46 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 4:53:25 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 4:48:16 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:57:26 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:33:46 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:09:19 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 2:36:22 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:21:55 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 8:20:28 AM, TRap wrote:
At 3/6/2016 7:22:57 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
The optical illusion theory is the most logical conclusion. When in a herd, the stripes will create confusion for the lions who want know where the zebras vital organs are. Thus, the lions will most likely fail in their hunt because they grabbed the wrong end of the zebra and got a kick in the jaw for their trouble. The video shows a lion hunting a single zebra. This video is not a good example, because the zebra is stupid and strayed from the herd. A video of a lion attacking a herd of zebras would most likely show a high failure rate.

Tell me Akhenaten, why should Not I assume that the predator, the lion is eventually going to develop a new 'super vision' to counter Zebra ' B&W color. Also, tell me how do the skin of Zebra figured out the limitations of Lion's vision and could change according to that?

1) The Lion will continue to evolve.
2) If some adaptation in vision helps the Lion survive/thrive that trait will be carried forward in subsequent generations.
3) The skin of the Zebra knows nothing. If some "change" was beneficial or neutral it will carry forward the change too.

Ask some new questions. You should understand these points well enough at this point. They have been explained to you several times.

TREssspa here. Why does your theory presume that the vision of lion is Not 'co-evolving' with zebra?

They are evolving, however, there is no "path" for evolution in the way you might want to think. If the vision of the lion is sufficient to hunt and live successfully, there is no pressure there.

You mean pressure derives evolution? or is evolution inevitable?

Lets turn this on its head to better illustrate. If the environment changed suddenly in a way that BETTER eyesight was a disadvantage, the lions who had WORSE eyesight would be better suited for the new environment, and prosper. So, the idea that the lion is on some path to what we perceive as "better" is foolish thinking. The lion is only responding to the environment it exists in.

I understand the fact that lions who had 'worse' eyesight would flourish. But, are you assured that the offsprings would inherit that particular trait ('worse' eyesight) ?

If (as in this hypothetical) worse eyesight was a better fit for the environment, yes that would happen.

How can they pass this particular trait to the next generation, that's what I have asked.

OK. If you look at the human genome, you can see vestiges you can see both success and failure. There is a mutation known of in humans that produce much stronger bones. The study (I can find it if you like) was found in a family. Each member of this family has significantly stronger bones. This is a trait that is being carried within this group, and if it leads to benefit, over time it could be that most or all of the species will have this trait. There are traits that exist for the opposite, weaker bones. If this is not enough of a determent then it too will stay in the human genome.

That make sense to you?
Tela
Posts: 79
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3/7/2016 6:12:56 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 5:13:39 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 4:56:46 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 4:53:25 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 4:48:16 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:57:26 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:33:46 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:09:19 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 2:36:22 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:21:55 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 8:20:28 AM, TRap wrote:
At 3/6/2016 7:22:57 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
The optical illusion theory is the most logical conclusion. When in a herd, the stripes will create confusion for the lions who want know where the zebras vital organs are. Thus, the lions will most likely fail in their hunt because they grabbed the wrong end of the zebra and got a kick in the jaw for their trouble. The video shows a lion hunting a single zebra. This video is not a good example, because the zebra is stupid and strayed from the herd. A video of a lion attacking a herd of zebras would most likely show a high failure rate.

Tell me Akhenaten, why should Not I assume that the predator, the lion is eventually going to develop a new 'super vision' to counter Zebra ' B&W color. Also, tell me how do the skin of Zebra figured out the limitations of Lion's vision and could change according to that?

1) The Lion will continue to evolve.
2) If some adaptation in vision helps the Lion survive/thrive that trait will be carried forward in subsequent generations.
3) The skin of the Zebra knows nothing. If some "change" was beneficial or neutral it will carry forward the change too.

Ask some new questions. You should understand these points well enough at this point. They have been explained to you several times.

TREssspa here. Why does your theory presume that the vision of lion is Not 'co-evolving' with zebra?

They are evolving, however, there is no "path" for evolution in the way you might want to think. If the vision of the lion is sufficient to hunt and live successfully, there is no pressure there.

You mean pressure derives evolution? or is evolution inevitable?

Lets turn this on its head to better illustrate. If the environment changed suddenly in a way that BETTER eyesight was a disadvantage, the lions who had WORSE eyesight would be better suited for the new environment, and prosper. So, the idea that the lion is on some path to what we perceive as "better" is foolish thinking. The lion is only responding to the environment it exists in.

I understand the fact that lions who had 'worse' eyesight would flourish. But, are you assured that the offsprings would inherit that particular trait ('worse' eyesight) ?

If (as in this hypothetical) worse eyesight was a better fit for the environment, yes that would happen.

How can they pass this particular trait to the next generation, that's what I have asked.

OK. If you look at the human genome, you can see vestiges you can see both success and failure. There is a mutation known of in humans that produce much stronger bones. The study (I can find it if you like) was found in a family. Each member of this family has significantly stronger bones. This is a trait that is being carried within this group, and if it leads to benefit, over time it could be that most or all of the species will have this trait. There are traits that exist for the opposite, weaker bones. If this is not enough of a determent then it too will stay in the human genome.

That make sense to you?

Yeah, it does. You may continue with your explanation. I'm listening.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/7/2016 6:24:30 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 6:12:56 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 5:13:39 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 4:56:46 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 4:53:25 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 4:48:16 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:57:26 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:33:46 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:09:19 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 2:36:22 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:21:55 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 8:20:28 AM, TRap wrote:
At 3/6/2016 7:22:57 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
The optical illusion theory is the most logical conclusion. When in a herd, the stripes will create confusion for the lions who want know where the zebras vital organs are. Thus, the lions will most likely fail in their hunt because they grabbed the wrong end of the zebra and got a kick in the jaw for their trouble. The video shows a lion hunting a single zebra. This video is not a good example, because the zebra is stupid and strayed from the herd. A video of a lion attacking a herd of zebras would most likely show a high failure rate.

Tell me Akhenaten, why should Not I assume that the predator, the lion is eventually going to develop a new 'super vision' to counter Zebra ' B&W color. Also, tell me how do the skin of Zebra figured out the limitations of Lion's vision and could change according to that?

1) The Lion will continue to evolve.
2) If some adaptation in vision helps the Lion survive/thrive that trait will be carried forward in subsequent generations.
3) The skin of the Zebra knows nothing. If some "change" was beneficial or neutral it will carry forward the change too.

Ask some new questions. You should understand these points well enough at this point. They have been explained to you several times.

TREssspa here. Why does your theory presume that the vision of lion is Not 'co-evolving' with zebra?

They are evolving, however, there is no "path" for evolution in the way you might want to think. If the vision of the lion is sufficient to hunt and live successfully, there is no pressure there.

You mean pressure derives evolution? or is evolution inevitable?

Lets turn this on its head to better illustrate. If the environment changed suddenly in a way that BETTER eyesight was a disadvantage, the lions who had WORSE eyesight would be better suited for the new environment, and prosper. So, the idea that the lion is on some path to what we perceive as "better" is foolish thinking. The lion is only responding to the environment it exists in.

I understand the fact that lions who had 'worse' eyesight would flourish. But, are you assured that the offsprings would inherit that particular trait ('worse' eyesight) ?

If (as in this hypothetical) worse eyesight was a better fit for the environment, yes that would happen.

How can they pass this particular trait to the next generation, that's what I have asked.

OK. If you look at the human genome, you can see vestiges you can see both success and failure. There is a mutation known of in humans that produce much stronger bones. The study (I can find it if you like) was found in a family. Each member of this family has significantly stronger bones. This is a trait that is being carried within this group, and if it leads to benefit, over time it could be that most or all of the species will have this trait. There are traits that exist for the opposite, weaker bones. If this is not enough of a determent then it too will stay in the human genome.

That make sense to you?

Yeah, it does. You may continue with your explanation. I'm listening.

What are your questions? That, in short, is natural selection.

random mutation + natural selection
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/7/2016 6:29:07 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 6:12:56 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 5:13:39 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 4:56:46 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 4:53:25 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 4:48:16 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:57:26 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:33:46 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:09:19 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 2:36:22 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:21:55 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 8:20:28 AM, TRap wrote:
At 3/6/2016 7:22:57 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
The optical illusion theory is the most logical conclusion. When in a herd, the stripes will create confusion for the lions who want know where the zebras vital organs are. Thus, the lions will most likely fail in their hunt because they grabbed the wrong end of the zebra and got a kick in the jaw for their trouble. The video shows a lion hunting a single zebra. This video is not a good example, because the zebra is stupid and strayed from the herd. A video of a lion attacking a herd of zebras would most likely show a high failure rate.

Tell me Akhenaten, why should Not I assume that the predator, the lion is eventually going to develop a new 'super vision' to counter Zebra ' B&W color. Also, tell me how do the skin of Zebra figured out the limitations of Lion's vision and could change according to that?

1) The Lion will continue to evolve.
2) If some adaptation in vision helps the Lion survive/thrive that trait will be carried forward in subsequent generations.
3) The skin of the Zebra knows nothing. If some "change" was beneficial or neutral it will carry forward the change too.

Ask some new questions. You should understand these points well enough at this point. They have been explained to you several times.

TREssspa here. Why does your theory presume that the vision of lion is Not 'co-evolving' with zebra?

They are evolving, however, there is no "path" for evolution in the way you might want to think. If the vision of the lion is sufficient to hunt and live successfully, there is no pressure there.

You mean pressure derives evolution? or is evolution inevitable?

Lets turn this on its head to better illustrate. If the environment changed suddenly in a way that BETTER eyesight was a disadvantage, the lions who had WORSE eyesight would be better suited for the new environment, and prosper. So, the idea that the lion is on some path to what we perceive as "better" is foolish thinking. The lion is only responding to the environment it exists in.

I understand the fact that lions who had 'worse' eyesight would flourish. But, are you assured that the offsprings would inherit that particular trait ('worse' eyesight) ?

If (as in this hypothetical) worse eyesight was a better fit for the environment, yes that would happen.

How can they pass this particular trait to the next generation, that's what I have asked.

OK. If you look at the human genome, you can see vestiges you can see both success and failure. There is a mutation known of in humans that produce much stronger bones. The study (I can find it if you like) was found in a family. Each member of this family has significantly stronger bones. This is a trait that is being carried within this group, and if it leads to benefit, over time it could be that most or all of the species will have this trait. There are traits that exist for the opposite, weaker bones. If this is not enough of a determent then it too will stay in the human genome.

That make sense to you?

Yeah, it does. You may continue with your explanation. I'm listening.

One point I am trying to get across to you is - evolution is NOT in pursuit of something. The process has no "goal". Sometimes "just OK" works fine for a species. That is, a mutation that is neutral or only a slight disadvantage CAN make it through to subsequent generations.
Stronn
Posts: 318
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3/7/2016 7:33:17 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 6:29:07 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 6:12:56 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 5:13:39 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 4:56:46 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 4:53:25 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 4:48:16 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:57:26 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:33:46 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:09:19 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 2:36:22 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:21:55 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 8:20:28 AM, TRap wrote:
At 3/6/2016 7:22:57 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
The optical illusion theory is the most logical conclusion. When in a herd, the stripes will create confusion for the lions who want know where the zebras vital organs are. Thus, the lions will most likely fail in their hunt because they grabbed the wrong end of the zebra and got a kick in the jaw for their trouble. The video shows a lion hunting a single zebra. This video is not a good example, because the zebra is stupid and strayed from the herd. A video of a lion attacking a herd of zebras would most likely show a high failure rate.

Tell me Akhenaten, why should Not I assume that the predator, the lion is eventually going to develop a new 'super vision' to counter Zebra ' B&W color. Also, tell me how do the skin of Zebra figured out the limitations of Lion's vision and could change according to that?

1) The Lion will continue to evolve.
2) If some adaptation in vision helps the Lion survive/thrive that trait will be carried forward in subsequent generations.
3) The skin of the Zebra knows nothing. If some "change" was beneficial or neutral it will carry forward the change too.

Ask some new questions. You should understand these points well enough at this point. They have been explained to you several times.

TREssspa here. Why does your theory presume that the vision of lion is Not 'co-evolving' with zebra?

They are evolving, however, there is no "path" for evolution in the way you might want to think. If the vision of the lion is sufficient to hunt and live successfully, there is no pressure there.

You mean pressure derives evolution? or is evolution inevitable?

Lets turn this on its head to better illustrate. If the environment changed suddenly in a way that BETTER eyesight was a disadvantage, the lions who had WORSE eyesight would be better suited for the new environment, and prosper. So, the idea that the lion is on some path to what we perceive as "better" is foolish thinking. The lion is only responding to the environment it exists in.

I understand the fact that lions who had 'worse' eyesight would flourish. But, are you assured that the offsprings would inherit that particular trait ('worse' eyesight) ?

If (as in this hypothetical) worse eyesight was a better fit for the environment, yes that would happen.

How can they pass this particular trait to the next generation, that's what I have asked.

OK. If you look at the human genome, you can see vestiges you can see both success and failure. There is a mutation known of in humans that produce much stronger bones. The study (I can find it if you like) was found in a family. Each member of this family has significantly stronger bones. This is a trait that is being carried within this group, and if it leads to benefit, over time it could be that most or all of the species will have this trait. There are traits that exist for the opposite, weaker bones. If this is not enough of a determent then it too will stay in the human genome.

That make sense to you?

Yeah, it does. You may continue with your explanation. I'm listening.

One point I am trying to get across to you is - evolution is NOT in pursuit of something. The process has no "goal". Sometimes "just OK" works fine for a species. That is, a mutation that is neutral or only a slight disadvantage CAN make it through to subsequent generations.

I'll add that sometimes a mutation can be both harmful in one respect and beneficial in another. The sickle cell gene is a good example. If you have the sickle cell mutation, your blood cells are not round, but sickle-shaped, and thus less efficient. But you are also more resistant to malaria. The sickle cell allele is common in areas with high rates of malaria. In such areas, there is a net advantage to being malaria resistant versus having less efficient oxygen-carrying blood.

And mutations that are beneficial or neutral in one environment may be harmful in another, and vice versa.
Tela
Posts: 79
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3/8/2016 6:39:04 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/7/2016 6:24:30 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 6:12:56 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 5:13:39 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 4:56:46 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 4:53:25 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 4:48:16 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:57:26 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:33:46 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/7/2016 3:09:19 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/7/2016 2:36:22 PM, Tela wrote:
At 3/6/2016 2:21:55 PM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 8:20:28 AM, TRap wrote:
At 3/6/2016 7:22:57 AM, Akhenaten wrote:
The optical illusion theory is the most logical conclusion. When in a herd, the stripes will create confusion for the lions who want know where the zebras vital organs are. Thus, the lions will most likely fail in their hunt because they grabbed the wrong end of the zebra and got a kick in the jaw for their trouble. The video shows a lion hunting a single zebra. This video is not a good example, because the zebra is stupid and strayed from the herd. A video of a lion attacking a herd of zebras would most likely show a high failure rate.

Tell me Akhenaten, why should Not I assume that the predator, the lion is eventually going to develop a new 'super vision' to counter Zebra ' B&W color. Also, tell me how do the skin of Zebra figured out the limitations of Lion's vision and could change according to that?

1) The Lion will continue to evolve.
2) If some adaptation in vision helps the Lion survive/thrive that trait will be carried forward in subsequent generations.
3) The skin of the Zebra knows nothing. If some "change" was beneficial or neutral it will carry forward the change too.

Ask some new questions. You should understand these points well enough at this point. They have been explained to you several times.

TREssspa here. Why does your theory presume that the vision of lion is Not 'co-evolving' with zebra?

They are evolving, however, there is no "path" for evolution in the way you might want to think. If the vision of the lion is sufficient to hunt and live successfully, there is no pressure there.

You mean pressure derives evolution? or is evolution inevitable?

Lets turn this on its head to better illustrate. If the environment changed suddenly in a way that BETTER eyesight was a disadvantage, the lions who had WORSE eyesight would be better suited for the new environment, and prosper. So, the idea that the lion is on some path to what we perceive as "better" is foolish thinking. The lion is only responding to the environment it exists in.

I understand the fact that lions who had 'worse' eyesight would flourish. But, are you assured that the offsprings would inherit that particular trait ('worse' eyesight) ?

If (as in this hypothetical) worse eyesight was a better fit for the environment, yes that would happen.

How can they pass this particular trait to the next generation, that's what I have asked.

OK. If you look at the human genome, you can see vestiges you can see both success and failure. There is a mutation known of in humans that produce much stronger bones. The study (I can find it if you like) was found in a family. Each member of this family has significantly stronger bones. This is a trait that is being carried within this group, and if it leads to benefit, over time it could be that most or all of the species will have this trait. There are traits that exist for the opposite, weaker bones. If this is not enough of a determent then it too will stay in the human genome.

That make sense to you?

Yeah, it does. You may continue with your explanation. I'm listening.

What are your questions? That, in short, is natural selection.

random mutation + natural selection

How can we say mutations are random when you confess that they are derived by external factors and pressure?
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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3/8/2016 1:12:17 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
What are your questions? That, in short, is natural selection.

random mutation + natural selection

How can we say mutations are random when you confess that they are derived by external factors and pressure?

The mutations are random, it is the selection that is not. Mutation itself can happen from any number of things, but as it relates to evolution, the mutation is not in response to pressures to evolve. In our example, there is no mutation happening because it might be better to have stripes.
Peternosaint
Posts: 1,166
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3/11/2016 2:18:50 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/7/2016 4:41:13 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 3/6/2016 4:53:26 AM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 4:27:07 AM, TRap wrote:
Why are zebras B&W?

You did this one already.

There are no zebras in India.

ME: And this is something to think about...What if some virus struck all the Zebras in the lion hunting area, and the zebras die out, would the lines with Zebra vision also die out?
Peternosaint
Posts: 1,166
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3/11/2016 2:26:29 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/11/2016 2:18:50 AM, Peternosaint wrote:
At 3/7/2016 4:41:13 PM, Harikrish wrote:
At 3/6/2016 4:53:26 AM, TBR wrote:
At 3/6/2016 4:27:07 AM, TRap wrote:
Why are zebras B&W?

You did this one already.

There are no zebras in India.

ME: And this is something to think about...What if some virus struck all the Zebras in the lion hunting area, and the zebras die out, would the lions with Zebra vision also die out?

ME: If evolution says that to avoid the lions the zebra, or evolution, change the shape or density of their stripes, how in hell's name does the Zebra, or evolution, know that it is the stripes that make them safe, or is it a fact the Zebras just taste good to a lion.

What about the other animals the lions eat, does the lion develop a set of slides he can put on, like 3D glasses, to change his vision of the different colours of the different prey?

It is too ridiculous to even try to comprehend.