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Therapsid

Danb6177
Posts: 433
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3/20/2016 5:23:55 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Have a few questions about this transitional species. From what I can gather the distinction here is the formation of the lower jaw and also the ear bones to show an in between with reptiles and mammals. There were however many different kinds of therapsid fossils found in the record.
Did all these evolve into mammals? I believe mammals are said to be monophyletic so I assume they did not all evolve into mammals. Perhaps just the cynodont evolved into mammals? What did the other therapsids evolve into? Is this known?

Thanx
Stronn
Posts: 318
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3/21/2016 1:47:04 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 5:23:55 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
Have a few questions about this transitional species. From what I can gather the distinction here is the formation of the lower jaw and also the ear bones to show an in between with reptiles and mammals. There were however many different kinds of therapsid fossils found in the record.
Did all these evolve into mammals? I believe mammals are said to be monophyletic so I assume they did not all evolve into mammals. Perhaps just the cynodont evolved into mammals? What did the other therapsids evolve into? Is this known?

Thanx

The only extant descendants of Therapsids are mammals. All other lines of Terapsids are extinct. There were many non-mammalian lines of Therapsids. For example, the Anomodent were among the most successful herbivores in the Late Permian and Triassic before going extinct.

A distinguishing characteristic of Therapsids is that their legs are underneath the body, rather than splayed to the side like lizards. And the toes are pointing forward.

https://en.wikipedia.org...
Danb6177
Posts: 433
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3/21/2016 7:30:22 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/21/2016 1:47:04 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/20/2016 5:23:55 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
Have a few questions about this transitional species. From what I can gather the distinction here is the formation of the lower jaw and also the ear bones to show an in between with reptiles and mammals. There were however many different kinds of therapsid fossils found in the record.
Did all these evolve into mammals? I believe mammals are said to be monophyletic so I assume they did not all evolve into mammals. Perhaps just the cynodont evolved into mammals? What did the other therapsids evolve into? Is this known?

Thanx


The only extant descendants of Therapsids are mammals. All other lines of Terapsids are extinct. There were many non-mammalian lines of Therapsids. For example, the Anomodent were among the most successful herbivores in the Late Permian and Triassic before going extinct.

A distinguishing characteristic of Therapsids is that their legs are underneath the body, rather than splayed to the side like lizards. And the toes are pointing forward.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Thanx for reply. I did look at the wiki page before just didnt know if it had all the info.

So on the page I like the Phylogeny. It looks like if im reading it correct that before actual mammals were classified the last evolutionary progression was the Cynodontia ?
Stronn
Posts: 318
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3/21/2016 8:54:57 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/21/2016 7:30:22 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 3/21/2016 1:47:04 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/20/2016 5:23:55 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
Have a few questions about this transitional species. From what I can gather the distinction here is the formation of the lower jaw and also the ear bones to show an in between with reptiles and mammals. There were however many different kinds of therapsid fossils found in the record.
Did all these evolve into mammals? I believe mammals are said to be monophyletic so I assume they did not all evolve into mammals. Perhaps just the cynodont evolved into mammals? What did the other therapsids evolve into? Is this known?

Thanx


The only extant descendants of Therapsids are mammals. All other lines of Terapsids are extinct. There were many non-mammalian lines of Therapsids. For example, the Anomodent were among the most successful herbivores in the Late Permian and Triassic before going extinct.

A distinguishing characteristic of Therapsids is that their legs are underneath the body, rather than splayed to the side like lizards. And the toes are pointing forward.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Thanx for reply. I did look at the wiki page before just didnt know if it had all the info.

So on the page I like the Phylogeny. It looks like if im reading it correct that before actual mammals were classified the last evolutionary progression was the Cynodontia ?

Yes, it looks that way. One line of Cynodonts developed into Mammals. All the other lines are extinct.
Danb6177
Posts: 433
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3/21/2016 10:35:22 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/21/2016 8:54:57 PM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/21/2016 7:30:22 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 3/21/2016 1:47:04 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/20/2016 5:23:55 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
Have a few questions about this transitional species. From what I can gather the distinction here is the formation of the lower jaw and also the ear bones to show an in between with reptiles and mammals. There were however many different kinds of therapsid fossils found in the record.
Did all these evolve into mammals? I believe mammals are said to be monophyletic so I assume they did not all evolve into mammals. Perhaps just the cynodont evolved into mammals? What did the other therapsids evolve into? Is this known?

Thanx


The only extant descendants of Therapsids are mammals. All other lines of Terapsids are extinct. There were many non-mammalian lines of Therapsids. For example, the Anomodent were among the most successful herbivores in the Late Permian and Triassic before going extinct.

A distinguishing characteristic of Therapsids is that their legs are underneath the body, rather than splayed to the side like lizards. And the toes are pointing forward.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Thanx for reply. I did look at the wiki page before just didnt know if it had all the info.

So on the page I like the Phylogeny. It looks like if im reading it correct that before actual mammals were classified the last evolutionary progression was the Cynodontia ?

Yes, it looks that way. One line of Cynodonts developed into Mammals. All the other lines are extinct.

Which mammal did it evolve into? Whats the next progression after the Cynodont?
Stronn
Posts: 318
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3/21/2016 10:53:59 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/21/2016 10:35:22 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 3/21/2016 8:54:57 PM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/21/2016 7:30:22 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 3/21/2016 1:47:04 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/20/2016 5:23:55 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
Have a few questions about this transitional species. From what I can gather the distinction here is the formation of the lower jaw and also the ear bones to show an in between with reptiles and mammals. There were however many different kinds of therapsid fossils found in the record.
Did all these evolve into mammals? I believe mammals are said to be monophyletic so I assume they did not all evolve into mammals. Perhaps just the cynodont evolved into mammals? What did the other therapsids evolve into? Is this known?

Thanx


The only extant descendants of Therapsids are mammals. All other lines of Terapsids are extinct. There were many non-mammalian lines of Therapsids. For example, the Anomodent were among the most successful herbivores in the Late Permian and Triassic before going extinct.

A distinguishing characteristic of Therapsids is that their legs are underneath the body, rather than splayed to the side like lizards. And the toes are pointing forward.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Thanx for reply. I did look at the wiki page before just didnt know if it had all the info.

So on the page I like the Phylogeny. It looks like if im reading it correct that before actual mammals were classified the last evolutionary progression was the Cynodontia ?

Yes, it looks that way. One line of Cynodonts developed into Mammals. All the other lines are extinct.

Which mammal did it evolve into? Whats the next progression after the Cynodont?

All mammals are Cynodonts, having evolved from a common Cynodont ancestor. Just like all Cynodonts are Therapsids. Mammals are a type of Cynodont, which are a type of Therapsid, and so on back up through the tree of life hierarchy.
Danb6177
Posts: 433
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3/21/2016 11:14:53 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/21/2016 10:53:59 PM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/21/2016 10:35:22 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 3/21/2016 8:54:57 PM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/21/2016 7:30:22 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 3/21/2016 1:47:04 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/20/2016 5:23:55 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
Have a few questions about this transitional species. From what I can gather the distinction here is the formation of the lower jaw and also the ear bones to show an in between with reptiles and mammals. There were however many different kinds of therapsid fossils found in the record.
Did all these evolve into mammals? I believe mammals are said to be monophyletic so I assume they did not all evolve into mammals. Perhaps just the cynodont evolved into mammals? What did the other therapsids evolve into? Is this known?

Thanx


The only extant descendants of Therapsids are mammals. All other lines of Terapsids are extinct. There were many non-mammalian lines of Therapsids. For example, the Anomodent were among the most successful herbivores in the Late Permian and Triassic before going extinct.

A distinguishing characteristic of Therapsids is that their legs are underneath the body, rather than splayed to the side like lizards. And the toes are pointing forward.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Thanx for reply. I did look at the wiki page before just didnt know if it had all the info.

So on the page I like the Phylogeny. It looks like if im reading it correct that before actual mammals were classified the last evolutionary progression was the Cynodontia ?

Yes, it looks that way. One line of Cynodonts developed into Mammals. All the other lines are extinct.

Which mammal did it evolve into? Whats the next progression after the Cynodont?

All mammals are Cynodonts, having evolved from a common Cynodont ancestor. Just like all Cynodonts are Therapsids. Mammals are a type of Cynodont, which are a type of Therapsid, and so on back up through the tree of life hierarchy.

Ok so the common ancestor cynodont. I cannot find a Phylogeny showing the progression from her forward. Im interested to see what that would look like. The cynodonts look pretty big but I cannot find out how big they were.
Stronn
Posts: 318
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3/21/2016 11:29:23 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/21/2016 11:14:53 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 3/21/2016 10:53:59 PM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/21/2016 10:35:22 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 3/21/2016 8:54:57 PM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/21/2016 7:30:22 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 3/21/2016 1:47:04 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/20/2016 5:23:55 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
Have a few questions about this transitional species. From what I can gather the distinction here is the formation of the lower jaw and also the ear bones to show an in between with reptiles and mammals. There were however many different kinds of therapsid fossils found in the record.
Did all these evolve into mammals? I believe mammals are said to be monophyletic so I assume they did not all evolve into mammals. Perhaps just the cynodont evolved into mammals? What did the other therapsids evolve into? Is this known?

Thanx


The only extant descendants of Therapsids are mammals. All other lines of Terapsids are extinct. There were many non-mammalian lines of Therapsids. For example, the Anomodent were among the most successful herbivores in the Late Permian and Triassic before going extinct.

A distinguishing characteristic of Therapsids is that their legs are underneath the body, rather than splayed to the side like lizards. And the toes are pointing forward.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Thanx for reply. I did look at the wiki page before just didnt know if it had all the info.

So on the page I like the Phylogeny. It looks like if im reading it correct that before actual mammals were classified the last evolutionary progression was the Cynodontia ?

Yes, it looks that way. One line of Cynodonts developed into Mammals. All the other lines are extinct.

Which mammal did it evolve into? Whats the next progression after the Cynodont?

All mammals are Cynodonts, having evolved from a common Cynodont ancestor. Just like all Cynodonts are Therapsids. Mammals are a type of Cynodont, which are a type of Therapsid, and so on back up through the tree of life hierarchy.

Ok so the common ancestor cynodont. I cannot find a Phylogeny showing the progression from her forward. Im interested to see what that would look like. The cynodonts look pretty big but I cannot find out how big they were.

Cynodonts are all extinct, except mammals. Wikipedia has a pretty extensive phylogeny of Cynodontia/Cynodonts: https://en.wikipedia.org.... Note that every line except mammaliformes in that phylogeny is extinct. Depending on the line, the average species size looks most often to be from 1 foot to 5 feet.
distraff
Posts: 1,005
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3/22/2016 12:54:52 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 5:23:55 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
Have a few questions about this transitional species. From what I can gather the distinction here is the formation of the lower jaw and also the ear bones to show an in between with reptiles and mammals. There were however many different kinds of therapsid fossils found in the record.
Did all these evolve into mammals?

No, there was a huge diversity of Therapsids and only some of them evolved into mammals as shown in the link below:
https://pterosaurheresies.files.wordpress.com...

We have found a huge number of these species.

I believe mammals are said to be monophyletic so I assume they did not all evolve into mammals. Perhaps just the cynodont evolved into mammals?

More accurately, mammals evolved from cynodonts. Only some Cynodonts evolved into mammals.

What did the other therapsids evolve into? Is this known?

Synapsids are all mammals and some reptiles related to mammals and we started seeing those 300 MYA. Therapsids include all mammals and transitional mammals and we started seeing those 275 MYA. Cynodonts evolve about 260 MYA and these early Therapsids die out soon after. Mammals evolved about 200 MYA from Cynodonts which were the only Therapsids remaining.

To answer your question, some non-mammal Cynodonts survived long after mammals evolved and we see the last of them die out at 100 MYA. The last of them is a group called Tritylodontids which was a very mammal-like Cynodont that lived from 200 - 100 MYA. These dates may be revised as we get a more complete fossil record.

Another group that survived is Tritheledontidae and lived in about the same time period as the other group.

I could not find any evidence that these families evolved much but you can take a look yourself and see what you find. I hope this helps.
Danb6177
Posts: 433
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3/22/2016 1:23:42 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/21/2016 11:29:23 PM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/21/2016 11:14:53 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 3/21/2016 10:53:59 PM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/21/2016 10:35:22 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 3/21/2016 8:54:57 PM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/21/2016 7:30:22 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 3/21/2016 1:47:04 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 3/20/2016 5:23:55 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
Have a few questions about this transitional species. From what I can gather the distinction here is the formation of the lower jaw and also the ear bones to show an in between with reptiles and mammals. There were however many different kinds of therapsid fossils found in the record.
Did all these evolve into mammals? I believe mammals are said to be monophyletic so I assume they did not all evolve into mammals. Perhaps just the cynodont evolved into mammals? What did the other therapsids evolve into? Is this known?

Thanx


The only extant descendants of Therapsids are mammals. All other lines of Terapsids are extinct. There were many non-mammalian lines of Therapsids. For example, the Anomodent were among the most successful herbivores in the Late Permian and Triassic before going extinct.

A distinguishing characteristic of Therapsids is that their legs are underneath the body, rather than splayed to the side like lizards. And the toes are pointing forward.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Thanx for reply. I did look at the wiki page before just didnt know if it had all the info.

So on the page I like the Phylogeny. It looks like if im reading it correct that before actual mammals were classified the last evolutionary progression was the Cynodontia ?

Yes, it looks that way. One line of Cynodonts developed into Mammals. All the other lines are extinct.

Which mammal did it evolve into? Whats the next progression after the Cynodont?

All mammals are Cynodonts, having evolved from a common Cynodont ancestor. Just like all Cynodonts are Therapsids. Mammals are a type of Cynodont, which are a type of Therapsid, and so on back up through the tree of life hierarchy.

Ok so the common ancestor cynodont. I cannot find a Phylogeny showing the progression from her forward. Im interested to see what that would look like. The cynodonts look pretty big but I cannot find out how big they were.

Cynodonts are all extinct, except mammals. Wikipedia has a pretty extensive phylogeny of Cynodontia/Cynodonts: https://en.wikipedia.org.... Note that every line except mammaliformes in that phylogeny is extinct. Depending on the line, the average species size looks most often to be from 1 foot to 5 feet.

Thanx thats what i was looking for. I looked under mammal but it didnt show the cynodont in the progression. Should have just looked at the cynodont to begin with. My mistake, appreciate the link. Ill get back to this thread after I look at it for a bit.
Danb6177
Posts: 433
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3/22/2016 1:27:15 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/22/2016 12:54:52 AM, distraff wrote:
At 3/20/2016 5:23:55 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
Have a few questions about this transitional species. From what I can gather the distinction here is the formation of the lower jaw and also the ear bones to show an in between with reptiles and mammals. There were however many different kinds of therapsid fossils found in the record.
Did all these evolve into mammals?

No, there was a huge diversity of Therapsids and only some of them evolved into mammals as shown in the link below:
https://pterosaurheresies.files.wordpress.com...

We have found a huge number of these species.

I believe mammals are said to be monophyletic so I assume they did not all evolve into mammals. Perhaps just the cynodont evolved into mammals?

More accurately, mammals evolved from cynodonts. Only some Cynodonts evolved into mammals.

What did the other therapsids evolve into? Is this known?

Synapsids are all mammals and some reptiles related to mammals and we started seeing those 300 MYA. Therapsids include all mammals and transitional mammals and we started seeing those 275 MYA. Cynodonts evolve about 260 MYA and these early Therapsids die out soon after. Mammals evolved about 200 MYA from Cynodonts which were the only Therapsids remaining.

To answer your question, some non-mammal Cynodonts survived long after mammals evolved and we see the last of them die out at 100 MYA. The last of them is a group called Tritylodontids which was a very mammal-like Cynodont that lived from 200 - 100 MYA. These dates may be revised as we get a more complete fossil record.

Another group that survived is Tritheledontidae and lived in about the same time period as the other group.

I could not find any evidence that these families evolved much but you can take a look yourself and see what you find. I hope this helps.

Thanx for the info and the link. I have trouble finding some of this stuff. Ill get back to you also after I have a look at it in some detail. Thanx again
distraff
Posts: 1,005
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3/22/2016 1:55:10 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/22/2016 1:27:15 AM, Danb6177 wrote:
At 3/22/2016 12:54:52 AM, distraff wrote:
At 3/20/2016 5:23:55 PM, Danb6177 wrote:
Have a few questions about this transitional species. From what I can gather the distinction here is the formation of the lower jaw and also the ear bones to show an in between with reptiles and mammals. There were however many different kinds of therapsid fossils found in the record.
Did all these evolve into mammals?

No, there was a huge diversity of Therapsids and only some of them evolved into mammals as shown in the link below:
https://pterosaurheresies.files.wordpress.com...

We have found a huge number of these species.

I believe mammals are said to be monophyletic so I assume they did not all evolve into mammals. Perhaps just the cynodont evolved into mammals?

More accurately, mammals evolved from cynodonts. Only some Cynodonts evolved into mammals.

What did the other therapsids evolve into? Is this known?

Synapsids are all mammals and some reptiles related to mammals and we started seeing those 300 MYA. Therapsids include all mammals and transitional mammals and we started seeing those 275 MYA. Cynodonts evolve about 260 MYA and these early Therapsids die out soon after. Mammals evolved about 200 MYA from Cynodonts which were the only Therapsids remaining.

To answer your question, some non-mammal Cynodonts survived long after mammals evolved and we see the last of them die out at 100 MYA. The last of them is a group called Tritylodontids which was a very mammal-like Cynodont that lived from 200 - 100 MYA. These dates may be revised as we get a more complete fossil record.

Another group that survived is Tritheledontidae and lived in about the same time period as the other group.

I could not find any evidence that these families evolved much but you can take a look yourself and see what you find. I hope this helps.

Thanx for the info and the link. I have trouble finding some of this stuff. Ill get back to you also after I have a look at it in some detail. Thanx again

No problem.