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Race and IQ

someloser
Posts: 1,377
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4/21/2016 9:09:27 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Yeep, time to get into this again.

Here's a source for the disparity: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com...

Go wild
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
janesix
Posts: 3,442
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4/21/2016 9:21:29 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 9:09:27 PM, someloser wrote:
Yeep, time to get into this again.

Here's a source for the disparity: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com...

Go wild

The races evolved apart for tens of thousands of years. Is it so surprising there are differences in I Q?
Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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4/22/2016 12:06:32 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 9:09:27 PM, someloser wrote:
Yeep, time to get into this again.

Here's a source for the disparity: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com...

Go wild

Well, viewing the full article requires a purchase.

I'm skeptical that on a genetic basis there is any difference between ethnic groups intelligence. However, it would be reasonable to assume there could be a difference in intelligence due to differing environments they are brought up in. Black Americans are more likely to be in poverty (due to unfair historical and socioeconomic issues) so perhaps this could skew the average IQ.

I would be curious to see if this article compared ethnic groups from identical backgrounds or not.
Meh!
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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4/22/2016 1:04:11 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/22/2016 12:06:32 AM, Axonly wrote:
Well, viewing the full article requires a purchase.
My mistake, here: https://home.ubalt.edu...

I would be curious to see if this article compared ethnic groups from identical backgrounds or not.
No, it's just documentation for the unadjusted gap.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
keithprosser
Posts: 1,947
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4/22/2016 1:25:19 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
38 dollars to download a PDF? Someone ain't to bright if they think that's the way to start a debate!
user13579
Posts: 822
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4/25/2016 4:49:25 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Great. Now define "race".
Science in a nutshell:
"Facts are neither true nor false. They simply are."
"All scientific knowledge is provisional. Even facts are provisional."
"We can be absolutely certain that we have a moon, we can be absolutely certain that water is made out of H2O, and we can be absolutely certain that the Earth is a sphere!"
"Scientific knowledge is a body of statements of varying degrees of certainty -- some most unsure, some nearly sure, none absolutely certain."
keithprosser
Posts: 1,947
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4/25/2016 6:19:01 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
One map puts average IQ for the UK 2 points ahead of the US.
That can't be right. We Brits must be further ahead than that.
Daedal
Posts: 157
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4/25/2016 6:29:58 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/25/2016 6:19:01 PM, keithprosser wrote:
One map puts average IQ for the UK 2 points ahead of the US.
That can't be right. We Brits must be further ahead than that.

I agree.......
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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4/26/2016 10:56:31 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
As the article mentions, there are six to eight standard deviations in IQ variation within any ethnic group, but at most only one standard deviation in IQ between the averages of two ethnic groups.

Here, I should point out that while ethnic identity is mainly inherited, it also sees cultural, linguistic, religious and regional contributions.

So with that in mind, it leads me to ask: so what?

Information answers questions, and a key reason for asking sociological questions is to inform policy.

Aside from the possibility of varying regional educational approach by ethnicity at times (if needed), to maximise outcomes, what policy decisions should this finding legitimately inform?
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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4/29/2016 8:38:15 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/25/2016 4:49:25 PM, user13579 wrote:
Great. Now define "race".
We don't have to, lol. Racial self-identification is a near-perfect proxy for genetic ally distinct populations

At 4/26/2016 10:56:31 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
As the article mentions, there are six to eight standard deviations in IQ variation within any ethnic group, but at most only one standard deviation in IQ between the averages of two ethnic groups.

Here, I should point out that while ethnic identity is mainly inherited, it also sees cultural, linguistic, religious and regional contributions.

So with that in mind, it leads me to ask: so what?

Information answers questions, and a key reason for asking sociological questions is to inform policy.

Aside from the possibility of varying regional educational approach by ethnicity at times (if needed), to maximise outcomes, what policy decisions should this finding legitimately inform?
Who knows. Depends on the cause really - some might even say it would require we do nothing.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
keithprosser
Posts: 1,947
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4/29/2016 3:56:36 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
There are so many factors that affect intelligence - pre-natal nutrition to name if dozens - that I don't think it's possible to design an study that would identify an innate difference in mean racial IQ.

My guess is that any such difference would be very small, but in this sad world those with a racist agenda won't read - and certainly won't draw attention to - any fine print.

The problem with research in this area is it is that the results are prone to deliberate misuse. The headline 'blacks score less in IQ tests than whites' matters more than the study really reveals a social problem with black mother's access to adequate nutrition. The headline would be true, but a dangerously misleading way of putting it.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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4/29/2016 4:39:27 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/21/2016 9:09:27 PM, someloser wrote:
Yeep, time to get into this again.

Here's a source for the disparity: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com...

Go wild

White male athiest english speakers score high. Everyone else is stupid. Curious who makes these tests?
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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4/30/2016 11:37:42 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 4:39:27 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 4/21/2016 9:09:27 PM, someloser wrote:
Yeep, time to get into this again.

Here's a source for the disparity: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com...

Go wild

White male athiest english speakers score high. Everyone else is stupid. Curious who makes these tests?
Great Point!
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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5/1/2016 7:15:30 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/29/2016 4:39:27 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
White male athiest english speakers score high. Everyone else is stupid. Curious who makes these tests?
Sure explains why Ashkenazi Jews, Episcopalians, and Northeast Asians consistently outscore them.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
keithprosser
Posts: 1,947
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5/1/2016 7:51:18 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Yeah, your right. We white atheists males haven't worked out which questions only jews and episcopalians will get wrong well enough. But we're working on it!!!

Or seriously....

Of course many episcopalians and jews are not what you'd call devout. I think a more meaningful measure would be to correlate devoutness with IQ. This study
http://www.econ.ku.dk...
does some analsis along those lines, such as

"Syllogism 1 (high-IQ people gravitate towards atheism
and/or science, and low-IQ people remain religious) was
tested in an ANOVA design with IQ as dependent factor and
Atheist versus religious as the categorical variable. Agnostics
were left out of this analysis, as they could neither be classified as atheists nor religious.
Table 3 confirms that white religious people trail Atheists
by 5.13 IQ points....
Syllogism 2 said that a: cognitively highly complex people
choose Atheism/science; b: medium complex people choose
liberal denominations (i.e. fairly open, critical, less committed,
metaphorical, cultural heritage type), and c: least complex
people drift towards dogmatic denominations (committed,
personal relationship with Jesus, emphasis on sinfulness,fixed rules for behaviour, and need for atonement)....
Table 5 provides numbers that confirm syllogism 2..."
keithprosser
Posts: 1,947
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5/1/2016 8:01:43 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Postscript: Unlike their genes , People can choose their religion (at least to some extent). It seems likely that many high-iq jews and episcopalians identify themselves as such for cultural and social reason rather than because of any deep-rooted emotional attachments to the dogma.
Daedal
Posts: 157
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5/1/2016 8:26:15 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Speaking of Jews:

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Extract:

The Nobel Prize is an annual, international prize first awarded in 1901 for achievements in Physics, Chemistry, Physiology or Medicine, Literature, and Peace. An associated prize in Economics has been awarded since 1969.[1] Nobel Prizes have been awarded to over 850 individuals,[2] of whom at least 20% were Jews, although Jews comprise less than 0.2% of the world's population[3] (or 1 in every 500 people). Overall, Jews have won a total of 41% of all the Nobel Prizes in economics, 28% of medicine, 26% of physics, 19% of chemistry, 13% of literature and 9% of all peace awards.[4]
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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5/1/2016 9:48:48 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/26/2016 10:56:31 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
As the article mentions, there are six to eight standard deviations in IQ variation within any ethnic group, but at most only one standard deviation in IQ between the averages of two ethnic groups.

Here, I should point out that while ethnic identity is mainly inherited, it also sees cultural, linguistic, religious and regional contributions.

So with that in mind, it leads me to ask: so what?

Information answers questions, and a key reason for asking sociological questions is to inform policy.

Aside from the possibility of varying regional educational approach by ethnicity at times (if needed), to maximise outcomes, what policy decisions should this finding legitimately inform?

The fact that there are six to eight standard deviations of IQ variance within an ethnic group is just a logical consequence of the way IQ is calculated, namely as a percentile. By definition, there are people at both ends of the IQ spectrum, and the number of people in the ethnic group determines what percentiles those people are at (and hence the number of standard deviations, which is a direct function of percentile, which is itself related to the upper and lower bounds on the distribution). It has nothing to do with the degree of gene variation.

If you take two people at random from the same ethnic group, the average IQ difference between them will be 17 points assuming a normal curve distribution. That's only slightly higher than the differences between the black and white means, which is 15. An IQ of 85, which is the mean for blacks, puts the average black at the 13th percentile compared to whites. That is clearly not insignificant. Furthermore, the higher you go on the IQ spectrum the greater the disparity begins to show itself. For instance, beyond IQ 140 there are almost no black people at all. The notion that this would have absolutely no relevance to public policy is a bit insane.
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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5/1/2016 9:53:10 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/1/2016 8:26:15 PM, Daedal wrote:
Speaking of Jews:

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Extract:

The Nobel Prize is an annual, international prize first awarded in 1901 for achievements in Physics, Chemistry, Physiology or Medicine, Literature, and Peace. An associated prize in Economics has been awarded since 1969.[1] Nobel Prizes have been awarded to over 850 individuals,[2] of whom at least 20% were Jews, although Jews comprise less than 0.2% of the world's population[3] (or 1 in every 500 people). Overall, Jews have won a total of 41% of all the Nobel Prizes in economics, 28% of medicine, 26% of physics, 19% of chemistry, 13% of literature and 9% of all peace awards.[4]

Hitler was wrong; Jews are obviously the master race.
keithprosser
Posts: 1,947
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5/1/2016 10:03:52 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Thanks for the number Myk. I know very little formal statistics so I will accept your analysis.

The issue is in the assumption/rejection of innate difference. Given the numbers I'd conclude that something is horribly wrong with the way society is (not) working. Someone else could well conclude that whites are intrinsically clever than blacks and the figures bear that out. We might both agree that the results require or suggest changes in public policy, but we'd probably disagree strongly about what those required changes are!
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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5/2/2016 3:40:45 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/1/2016 10:03:52 PM, keithprosser wrote:
Thanks for the number Myk. I know very little formal statistics so I will accept your analysis.

The issue is in the assumption/rejection of innate difference. Given the numbers I'd conclude that something is horribly wrong with the way society is (not) working. Someone else could well conclude that whites are intrinsically clever than blacks and the figures bear that out. We might both agree that the results require or suggest changes in public policy, but we'd probably disagree strongly about what those required changes are!

Are you referring to me? What does Mwk stand for?
dylancatlow
Posts: 12,244
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5/2/2016 4:20:53 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
I just realized I made an error. The number of people in a given population doesn't determine the percentiles of the people at the ends of the spectrum (which are always 0 and 100). It just determines what iq gets assigned to them. In a world with 7 billion humans the highest possible iq is something like 200 (7 or so standard deviations above the norm). In a world with 50 people the highest iq could not exceed 130. The basic point still holds though.
Rukado
Posts: 527
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5/5/2016 10:04:34 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/22/2016 12:06:32 AM, Axonly wrote:
I'm skeptical that on a genetic basis there is any difference between ethnic groups intelligence. However, it would be reasonable to assume there could be a difference in intelligence due to differing environments they are brought up in. Black Americans are more likely to be in poverty (due to unfair historical and socioeconomic issues) so perhaps this could skew the average IQ.

Why are you skeptical? Is there a PC cop with a gun to your head?

Every effort to close the B/W racial IQ gaps has failed, including controlling for "poverty" as you plead. Poor whites are geniuses compared to poor blacks. White trailer trash mops the floor with middle-class blacks, academically. Even if these facts weren't already demonstrated by IQ researchers, you'd still be guilty of circular reasoning to explain away the prima facia evidence, pretending there's no relationship between intelligence and income.

There are genes that are linked to intelligence, and they're not disrupted evenly across the races, further making the argument from "unfairness" even more intellectually dishonest. (Anyway, blacks are heavily subsidies socially and economically, not oppressed.)
Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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5/5/2016 10:06:20 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/5/2016 10:04:34 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 4/22/2016 12:06:32 AM, Axonly wrote:
I'm skeptical that on a genetic basis there is any difference between ethnic groups intelligence. However, it would be reasonable to assume there could be a difference in intelligence due to differing environments they are brought up in. Black Americans are more likely to be in poverty (due to unfair historical and socioeconomic issues) so perhaps this could skew the average IQ.

Why are you skeptical? Is there a PC cop with a gun to your head?

Every effort to close the B/W racial IQ gaps has failed, including controlling for "poverty" as you plead. Poor whites are geniuses compared to poor blacks. White trailer trash mops the floor with middle-class blacks, academically. Even if these facts weren't already demonstrated by IQ researchers, you'd still be guilty of circular reasoning to explain away the prima facia evidence, pretending there's no relationship between intelligence and income.

There are genes that are linked to intelligence, and they're not disrupted evenly across the races, further making the argument from "unfairness" even more intellectually dishonest. (Anyway, blacks are heavily subsidies socially and economically, not oppressed.)

You cite no studies and are just ranting, you have no scientific proof.

You seem to just be one of the people who want there to be a gap.
Meh!
Rukado
Posts: 527
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5/5/2016 11:32:44 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/5/2016 10:06:20 PM, Axonly wrote:
You cite no studies and are just ranting, you have no scientific proof.

If you were even mildly familiar with IQ vs. race research, you wouldn't be complaining that I've cited no studies. If you can't be bothered to do basic research yourself on an issue that you're addressing, then you're not qualified to discuss the issue with me.
Rukado
Posts: 527
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5/5/2016 11:38:50 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/5/2016 10:06:20 PM, Axonly wrote:
You cite no studies and are just ranting, you have no scientific proof.

You pull out of your @ss the claim that poverty causes low IQ among blacks, why don't you cite studies showing low IQ is [primarily] caused by poverty?

At least you concede the blacks score lower on IQ tests. Now, it's up to you offer racist lies and BS, if you can't cite studies and give scientific proof, to support you thesis that it's the white man's fault that blacks score low on IQ tests.
Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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5/6/2016 12:04:09 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/5/2016 11:32:44 PM, Rukado wrote:
At 5/5/2016 10:06:20 PM, Axonly wrote:
You cite no studies and are just ranting, you have no scientific proof.

If you were even mildly familiar with IQ vs. race research, you wouldn't be complaining that I've cited no studies. If you can't be bothered to do basic research yourself on an issue that you're addressing, then you're not qualified to discuss the issue with me.

Well, you were making a claim, backed it up with no research, i'm not going to do it for you.
Meh!