Total Posts:13|Showing Posts:1-13
Jump to topic:

Evolution < asking for explanation

TheBoatman
Posts: 2
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2016 9:17:57 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
I am the boatman. I have not made my mind if I am a creationist or an evolutionist, not yet. Some things in particular, I find dubious about evolution..

If the purpose of fruits is to get the seeds distributed, then how did the plants survived that time in which there had no fruits to lure the insects or birds? This simple questions has always bothered me. Can you please explain how did it survive when it had no fruits?
dee-em
Posts: 6,497
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2016 2:32:20 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/2/2016 9:17:57 AM, TheBoatman wrote:
I am the boatman. I have not made my mind if I am a creationist or an evolutionist, not yet. Some things in particular, I find dubious about evolution..

If the purpose of fruits is to get the seeds distributed, then how did the plants survived that time in which there had no fruits to lure the insects or birds? This simple questions has always bothered me. Can you please explain how did it survive when it had no fruits?

The short answer is pollen. You could start your reading here:

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Fruit, which is formed by the enlargement of flower parts, is frequently a seed-dispersal tool that attracts animals to eat or otherwise disturb it, incidentally scattering the seeds it contains (see frugivory).
TheBoatman
Posts: 2
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2016 3:11:28 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/2/2016 2:32:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 5/2/2016 9:17:57 AM, TheBoatman wrote:
I am the boatman. I have not made my mind if I am a creationist or an evolutionist, not yet. Some things in particular, I find dubious about evolution..

If the purpose of fruits is to get the seeds distributed, then how did the plants survived that time in which there had no fruits to lure the insects or birds? This simple questions has always bothered me. Can you please explain how did it survive when it had no fruits?

The short answer is pollen.
Fruit, which is formed by the enlargement of flower parts, is frequently a seed-dispersal tool that attracts animals to eat or otherwise disturb it, incidentally scattering the seeds it contains (see frugivory).

But my question is how did the scattering happen when there were no fruits, when plants were not evolved enough to have the fruits. Sorry, I don't accept links.

//.
distraff
Posts: 1,005
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2016 6:39:38 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/2/2016 9:17:57 AM, TheBoatman wrote:
I am the boatman. I have not made my mind if I am a creationist or an evolutionist, not yet. Some things in particular, I find dubious about evolution..

If the purpose of fruits is to get the seeds distributed, then how did the plants survived that time in which there had no fruits to lure the insects or birds? This simple questions has always bothered me. Can you please explain how did it survive when it had no fruits?

Actually most plants do not use fruit to distribute seeds yet they do fine. Just look at grass. Oak trees have seeds in hard shells not in fruit and they manage to survive. The seeds just fall on the ground, and in the right conditions a new tree grows.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,085
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2016 7:46:54 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Ah, the boatman doesn't accept links. He can't be all that keen to learn.

The short answer is pollen. You could start your reading here:

Slight problem. Pollen is used to get the male half of a seed to the female half of a seed prior to fertilization. Fruits are used to distribute seeds after they have been fertilised. I don't think there is a natural way to evolve one from the other.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2016 7:52:07 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/2/2016 9:17:57 AM, TheBoatman wrote:
I am the boatman. I have not made my mind if I am a creationist or an evolutionist, not yet. Some things in particular, I find dubious about evolution..
If the purpose of fruits is to get the seeds distributed, then how did the plants survived that time in which there had no fruits to lure the insects or birds? This simple questions has always bothered me. Can you please explain how did it survive when it had no fruits?
Hi boatman. Welcome!

Plants with flowers (like apples and dandelions) are much younger than plants without (like conifers and ferns.) So the seed-spreading mechanisms used by unflowering plants are older than those used by flowering plants, and not as complex.

Unflowering plants typically pollinate by wind, rather than by insects or other animals. Like flowering plants, they produce seeds, but the seeds can be 'winged' for dispersal by air (e.g. spruce), or nuts for dispersal by animals (e.g. pine nuts.)

Flowering plants can also pollinate by wind and water (about 20% of flowering species still do this today), but over time they came to pollinate by animals too (e.g. did you know that bees were once carnivorous, wasplike creatures, who adapted to feed on flowers?)

With complex fruit structures, flowering plants also have a bigger range of ways to spread their seeds. As well as producing winged seeds and nuts like conifers, they can also have fluffy seeds for wind spreading (e.g. maples and dandelions), along with pods, berries or larger fruit. They can have barbed seeds like some grasses, and seeds like darts such as mangrove seeds. Also, the fruits of flowering plants themselves can even spread seeds unaided through chemical and mechanical energy -- e.g. see the video, linked right. Impressively, the fruit of the sandbox tree (aka the 'dynamite tree') can fling its seeds up to 100m, while coconut-seeds can spread thousands of miles when coconuts fall into the ocean.

So in short: even before there were flowering plants, unflowering plants had their own ways to spread seeds, but animals could still help. When flowering plants appeared, they found more ways to pollinate, and many more ways to spread their seeds, and this gave them a huge advantage that sees their dominance among plants today.

I hope that may be useful.
dee-em
Posts: 6,497
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2016 11:26:51 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/2/2016 3:11:28 PM, TheBoatman wrote:
At 5/2/2016 2:32:20 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 5/2/2016 9:17:57 AM, TheBoatman wrote:
I am the boatman. I have not made my mind if I am a creationist or an evolutionist, not yet. Some things in particular, I find dubious about evolution..

If the purpose of fruits is to get the seeds distributed, then how did the plants survived that time in which there had no fruits to lure the insects or birds? This simple questions has always bothered me. Can you please explain how did it survive when it had no fruits?

The short answer is pollen.
Fruit, which is formed by the enlargement of flower parts, is frequently a seed-dispersal tool that attracts animals to eat or otherwise disturb it, incidentally scattering the seeds it contains (see frugivory).

But my question is how did the scattering happen when there were no fruits, when plants were not evolved enough to have the fruits. Sorry, I don't accept links.

//.

Let me see. You are puzzled by something but don't want to read a short encyclopedia article to obtain an answer. That's an interesting approach to the quest for knowledge. Do you also not read books but just ask random people on the street? Lol.
NoMagic
Posts: 507
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2016 11:27:51 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/2/2016 9:17:57 AM, TheBoatman wrote:
I am the boatman. I have not made my mind if I am a creationist or an evolutionist, not yet. Some things in particular, I find dubious about evolution..

If the purpose of fruits is to get the seeds distributed, then how did the plants survived that time in which there had no fruits to lure the insects or birds? This simple questions has always bothered me. Can you please explain how did it survive when it had no fruits?

The thing that troubles me about creationism, there is no evidence of a creator, or of creation with intent of a creator. Why would one believe in creationism, when there is no evidence of a creator?
dee-em
Posts: 6,497
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/2/2016 11:34:29 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/2/2016 7:46:54 PM, keithprosser wrote:
Ah, the boatman doesn't accept links. He can't be all that keen to learn.

The short answer is pollen. You could start your reading here:

Slight problem. Pollen is used to get the male half of a seed to the female half of a seed prior to fertilization. Fruits are used to distribute seeds after they have been fertilised. I don't think there is a natural way to evolve one from the other.

Why do you say that? All fruit starts as a flower as far as I know. Once fertilization has occurred, the fruit forms out of the flower to encase the seed.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,085
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/3/2016 3:09:31 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
The OP asked about how plants distributed their (fertilised) seeds before they had fruits to attract bugs and birds. Pollen has nothing to do with distributing fertilised seeds - pollen is the plant version of sperm.
Peternosaint
Posts: 1,166
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2016 3:13:33 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/2/2016 6:39:38 PM, distraff wrote:
At 5/2/2016 9:17:57 AM, TheBoatman wrote:
I am the boatman. I have not made my mind if I am a creationist or an evolutionist, not yet. Some things in particular, I find dubious about evolution..

If the purpose of fruits is to get the seeds distributed, then how did the plants survived that time in which there had no fruits to lure the insects or birds? This simple questions has always bothered me. Can you please explain how did it survive when it had no fruits?

Actually most plants do not use fruit to distribute seeds yet they do fine. Just look at grass. Oak trees have seeds in hard shells not in fruit and they manage to survive. The seeds just fall on the ground, and in the right conditions a new tree grows.

ME: From a quick circuit of the net I see that the seed that falls to the ground needs pollination first before it will germinate. Funnily enough even if it is pollinated by a bee, bug, animal or bird, it still remains the same tree, and does not morph in to any of the critters I just mentioned. Strange that, Hey? Nor does the animal etc, have young that suddenly sprout leaves, not in a millions years even.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,085
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2016 8:48:11 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
Not exactly the same tree, just as you are not an exact copy of either of you parents. A seed that dropped to the ground would have problems - it would have to put down roots right where its parent was already established and taking nutrients out of the ground. Te parent would also be blocking the sunlight.

Something that got the seeds away to some distance away from its parent would be a good thing - in the sense (and only in the sense) that more seeds would grow into trees.

If the seeds from one particular tree became different from the rest in having - say - a bit of nutritious stuff stuck to it, a bird might be tempted to come along and eat the stuff and te seed with it. The bird would eventually excrete the seed far away, although most of the seeds still just fall down and are wasted. As in the parable of the sower, not all the seeds will fall on good ground, but some will and its better than just letting all the seeds fall down and having hardly any of them grow into adult plants.

So, after a while there will be lots of the new sort of tree (ie trees that have the new sort of seed) all over the place, although there are still some of the old sort, all stuck in the same place ready to become extinct from some minor local calamity.

Then, one day, one of the new sort starts producing seeds that are even more attractive for birds to eat....
TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
5/4/2016 12:22:00 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/2/2016 9:17:57 AM, TheBoatman wrote:
I am the boatman. I have not made my mind if I am a creationist or an evolutionist, not yet. Some things in particular, I find dubious about evolution..

If the purpose of fruits is to get the seeds distributed, then how did the plants survived that time in which there had no fruits to lure the insects or birds? This simple questions has always bothered me. Can you please explain how did it survive when it had no fruits?

The same way fruitless plants today survive.