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Did all dinosaurs have feathers?

PetersSmith
Posts: 5,819
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6/20/2016 4:23:20 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
With dinosaurs being embedded in pop culture, we've all had our own picture of what dinosaurs look like in our heads. However, there was always this little rumor spreading about that Spielberg "may" have skipped over. The most iconic dinosaurs from his blockbuster film series-saga-thing "Jurassic Park" come from the Theropoda suborder. Apparently, "research" indicates that these creatures had feathers where this https://www.sideshowtoy.com... is actually this http://static3.businessinsider.com..., and this https://i.kinja-img.com... is this http://d3lp4xedbqa8a5.cloudfront.net... (apparently they weren't even raptors though, they were Deinonychus). But it doesn't stop there. This http://animalia-life.com... apparently is actually this http://i2.wp.com....

On from the silly intro, we turn to this: http://www.smithsonianmag.com... http://news.nationalgeographic.com.... Did dinosaurs, possibly all of them, have feathers? Most of you are probably like "duh", but I seriously want to know if A) Spielberg just lied to us about a couple iconic dinosaurs or B) the prehistoric periods are a lot more feathery and colorful than contemporary popular culture. Discuss or something.
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RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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6/20/2016 5:31:12 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
Scales Over Feathers

A comprehensive analysis of fossilized dinosaur skin samples suggests feathers were not the norm.
The Scientist, June 3, 2015


Over the last two decades, dozens of fossilized dinosaur remains bearing evidence of feathers or quill-like protofeathers have surfaced, most notably among ornithischians and coelurosaurian theropods. These discoveries led some researchers to propose that perhaps all dinosaur species bore some sort of feather or down covering. But an analysis of more than 80 fossilized dinosaur and Mesozoic bird skin samples published in Biology Letters yesterday (June 3) indicates that this is likely not the case.

"What we found from this analysis is that the first dinosaur was probably not feathered," Nicol"s Campione, a paleobiologist at Uppsala University in Sweden told The Guardian. "Feathers clearly evolved in the dinosaur lineage, but right now, the data do not point to a feathered ancestor for them all."


Quoted article: [http://www.the-scientist.com...]
Original Paper: [http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org...]
Stronn
Posts: 318
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6/20/2016 6:14:21 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 5:31:12 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
Scales Over Feathers

A comprehensive analysis of fossilized dinosaur skin samples suggests feathers were not the norm.
The Scientist, June 3, 2015


Over the last two decades, dozens of fossilized dinosaur remains bearing evidence of feathers or quill-like protofeathers have surfaced, most notably among ornithischians and coelurosaurian theropods. These discoveries led some researchers to propose that perhaps all dinosaur species bore some sort of feather or down covering. But an analysis of more than 80 fossilized dinosaur and Mesozoic bird skin samples published in Biology Letters yesterday (June 3) indicates that this is likely not the case.

"What we found from this analysis is that the first dinosaur was probably not feathered," Nicol"s Campione, a paleobiologist at Uppsala University in Sweden told The Guardian. "Feathers clearly evolved in the dinosaur lineage, but right now, the data do not point to a feathered ancestor for them all."


Quoted article: [http://www.the-scientist.com...]
Original Paper: [http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org...]

"Most of these analyses find no compelling evidence for the appearance of protofeathers in the dinosaur common ancestor..."

This is not quite the same as saying that some dinosaurs lacked feathers.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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6/20/2016 10:50:14 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 6:14:21 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 6/20/2016 5:31:12 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
Scales Over Feathers

A comprehensive analysis of fossilized dinosaur skin samples suggests feathers were not the norm.
The Scientist, June 3, 2015


Over the last two decades, dozens of fossilized dinosaur remains bearing evidence of feathers or quill-like protofeathers have surfaced, most notably among ornithischians and coelurosaurian theropods. These discoveries led some researchers to propose that perhaps all dinosaur species bore some sort of feather or down covering. But an analysis of more than 80 fossilized dinosaur and Mesozoic bird skin samples published in Biology Letters yesterday (June 3) indicates that this is likely not the case.

"What we found from this analysis is that the first dinosaur was probably not feathered," Nicol"s Campione, a paleobiologist at Uppsala University in Sweden told The Guardian. "Feathers clearly evolved in the dinosaur lineage, but right now, the data do not point to a feathered ancestor for them all."


Quoted article: [http://www.the-scientist.com...]
Original Paper: [http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org...]

"Most of these analyses find no compelling evidence for the appearance of protofeathers in the dinosaur common ancestor..."

This is not quite the same as saying that some dinosaurs lacked feathers.

The primary source says it's probable that the common dinosaur ancestor lacked feathers, and offers probabilities for each of the descendant clades being feathered -- with many descendants likely being either scaled or with filaments but not feathers. [http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org...] I haven't gone through their methods yet, but would be happy to do so if you're interested.
Akhenaten
Posts: 854
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6/20/2016 12:58:29 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
The dinosaurs that have feathers usually have beaks as well. The dinosaurs that have teeth would be less likely to have feathers and more likely to have fur.
KthulhuHimself
Posts: 994
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6/20/2016 4:03:38 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 12:58:29 PM, Akhenaten wrote:
The dinosaurs that have feathers usually have beaks as well. The dinosaurs that have teeth would be less likely to have feathers and more likely to have fur.

Many instances of beaks in nature are actually later forms of toothed jaws (such as can be seen with swans), so what you're saying here isn't entirely correct (though it is partly correct); the tyrannosaurus-rex most likely had feathers, surprisingly (young ones, at least (http://www.amnh.org...)).
Stronn
Posts: 318
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6/20/2016 8:26:41 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 10:50:14 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 6/20/2016 6:14:21 AM, Stronn wrote:
At 6/20/2016 5:31:12 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
Scales Over Feathers

A comprehensive analysis of fossilized dinosaur skin samples suggests feathers were not the norm.
The Scientist, June 3, 2015


Over the last two decades, dozens of fossilized dinosaur remains bearing evidence of feathers or quill-like protofeathers have surfaced, most notably among ornithischians and coelurosaurian theropods. These discoveries led some researchers to propose that perhaps all dinosaur species bore some sort of feather or down covering. But an analysis of more than 80 fossilized dinosaur and Mesozoic bird skin samples published in Biology Letters yesterday (June 3) indicates that this is likely not the case.

"What we found from this analysis is that the first dinosaur was probably not feathered," Nicol"s Campione, a paleobiologist at Uppsala University in Sweden told The Guardian. "Feathers clearly evolved in the dinosaur lineage, but right now, the data do not point to a feathered ancestor for them all."


Quoted article: [http://www.the-scientist.com...]
Original Paper: [http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org...]

"Most of these analyses find no compelling evidence for the appearance of protofeathers in the dinosaur common ancestor..."

This is not quite the same as saying that some dinosaurs lacked feathers.

The primary source says it's probable that the common dinosaur ancestor lacked feathers, and offers probabilities for each of the descendant clades being feathered -- with many descendants likely being either scaled or with filaments but not feathers. [http://rsbl.royalsocietypublishing.org...] I haven't gone through their methods yet, but would be happy to do so if you're interested.

No need to delve into their methods. They summarize them well enough. Anyway, it would be rather tedious, since they use 18 different analyses to construct phylogenetic trees.

A majority of their 18 analyses yield a high liklihood for a scaled dinosaur common ancestor and a low liklihood for a feathered common ancestor. I was just injecting a healthy dose of scientific skepticism by pointing out that the authors hedge their findings, as most authors do in scientific journals. The most we can say is that the evidence so far points in the direction of non-feathered dinosaurs.
Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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6/23/2016 12:43:39 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/20/2016 12:58:29 PM, Akhenaten wrote:
The dinosaurs that have feathers usually have beaks as well. The dinosaurs that have teeth would be less likely to have feathers and more likely to have fur.

The question is: "Is this based on any actual evidence " it's hard to know with you.
Meh!
Silas_Cole
Posts: 3
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6/29/2016 5:51:24 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Absolutely not. Not only that, dinosaurs didn't even have feathers. They find fossils that show what they think are feather follicles when it could be easier to interpret them as being skin fiber. Has anybody even seen an actual fossil of a feather? I have and the difference between that and what they think is feathers on a dinosaur is so different I don't even know how they even came to the conclusion that dinosaurs had feathers. It's that bad. If anybody disagrees with this then by all means show me a dinosaur fossil with clearly distinctive feathers on it and I will accept it as fact. I think people are so desperate to find evidence for the theory of evolution, beyond what's observable, that they'll accept anything even if it is a fraud, which they have already done.