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Life After Death?

tropicalstorm12
Posts: 2
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7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Death was guaranteed to you the moment you were conceived from birth. Before you were born it was nothing and after you were born it is possible it will be the exact same. Only this brings up the question what caused you to be suddenly born randomly? And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,048
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7/25/2016 8:41:30 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Only this brings up the question what caused you to be suddenly born randomly?

Well, it's a bit awkward to explain, but when a man and a woman love each other very much they get married and afterwards they do... er, these things that, well, um, that come naturally, sort of thing, to grown-ups who like each other and.... er, and, um, well, and that's how babies are made. I hope that's clear.
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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7/25/2016 8:54:00 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
What caused you to be suddenly born randomly?
Individuals are born. Each has a sense of identity built from their experiences and the way they interpret and value them. Whatever over-arching story we tell ourselves about that, it does not affect consequence.

If it did, we could detect it.

what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.

Suppose someone threatened to replace your brain with an organically and genetically identical brain, which nevertheless had different knowledge, experiences, memories, relationships and values. Would you accept that proposal indifferently, or consider it murder?

If you'd consider it murder then you've just declared that you believe your identity isn't just your organic function, but also your knowledge, experiences, memories, relationships and values.

So even if it were possible that such organic function as yours might be born elsewhere in the universe, who is to say that this didn't already occur, and that you are the last that shall ever be born? Is it of concern to you what their memories and experiences were?

I suggest that if they ever existed, they are dead to you, as you would be to them, should any such succeed you.
pacchu
Posts: 68
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7/25/2016 1:26:54 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
Death was guaranteed to you the moment you were conceived from birth. Before you were born it was nothing and after you were born it is possible it will be the exact same. Only this brings up the question what caused you to be suddenly born randomly? And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.

Before you were born it was nothing

This is not a true statement. Information existed in the genetics of the egg and sperm that unite to begin forming a body. Where did that information come from?
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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7/25/2016 2:42:49 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 8:54:00 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
What caused you to be suddenly born randomly?
Individuals are born. Each has a sense of identity built from their experiences and the way they interpret and value them.

However, I am not the self identity. I have an identity of myself.

Whatever over-arching story we tell ourselves about that, it does not affect consequence.

If it did, we could detect it.

what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.

Suppose someone threatened to replace your brain with an organically and genetically identical brain, which nevertheless had different knowledge, experiences, memories, relationships and values. Would you accept that proposal indifferently, or consider it murder?

A new born has no memories or experience. And he is ALIVE.

.. completely missed the point.

If you'd consider it murder then you've just declared that you believe your identity isn't just your organic function, but also your knowledge, experiences, memories, relationships and values.

So even if it were possible that such organic function as yours might be born elsewhere in the universe, who is to say that this didn't already occur, and that you are the last that shall ever be born? Is it of concern to you what their memories and experiences were?

I suggest that if they ever existed, they are dead to you, as you would be to them, should any such succeed you.
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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7/25/2016 2:45:34 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
#1. I have pointed out this very issue of life and death many times before.

And it's definitely worth asking again and again.
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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7/25/2016 2:49:36 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 1:26:54 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
Death was guaranteed to you the moment you were conceived from birth. Before you were born it was nothing and after you were born it is possible it will be the exact same. Only this brings up the question what caused you to be suddenly born randomly? And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.

Before you were born it was nothing

This is not a true statement. Information existed in the genetics of the egg and sperm that unite to begin forming a body. Where did that information come from?

Just like most of the people, you don't understand what information really is.

Information is not an intrinsic phenomenon.
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
pacchu
Posts: 68
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7/25/2016 3:00:28 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 2:49:36 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:26:54 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
Death was guaranteed to you the moment you were conceived from birth. Before you were born it was nothing and after you were born it is possible it will be the exact same. Only this brings up the question what caused you to be suddenly born randomly? And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.

Before you were born it was nothing

This is not a true statement. Information existed in the genetics of the egg and sperm that unite to begin forming a body. Where did that information come from?

Just like most of the people, you don't understand what information really is.

Information is not an intrinsic phenomenon. : :

Where did you plagiarize that statement from?
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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7/25/2016 3:04:05 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 3:00:28 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:49:36 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:26:54 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
Death was guaranteed to you the moment you were conceived from birth. Before you were born it was nothing and after you were born it is possible it will be the exact same. Only this brings up the question what caused you to be suddenly born randomly? And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.

Before you were born it was nothing

This is not a true statement. Information existed in the genetics of the egg and sperm that unite to begin forming a body. Where did that information come from?

Just like most of the people, you don't understand what information really is.

Information is not an intrinsic phenomenon. : :

Where did you plagiarize that statement from?

I have many original ideas. It's one of them.
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
pacchu
Posts: 68
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7/25/2016 3:05:36 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 3:04:05 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:00:28 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:49:36 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:26:54 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
Death was guaranteed to you the moment you were conceived from birth. Before you were born it was nothing and after you were born it is possible it will be the exact same. Only this brings up the question what caused you to be suddenly born randomly? And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.

Before you were born it was nothing

This is not a true statement. Information existed in the genetics of the egg and sperm that unite to begin forming a body. Where did that information come from?

Just like most of the people, you don't understand what information really is.

Information is not an intrinsic phenomenon. : :

Where did you plagiarize that statement from?

I have many original ideas. It's one of them. : :

I understand what it takes to form any visible object. It certainly doesn't appear from nothing.
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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7/25/2016 3:09:20 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 3:05:36 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:04:05 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:00:28 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:49:36 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:26:54 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
Death was guaranteed to you the moment you were conceived from birth. Before you were born it was nothing and after you were born it is possible it will be the exact same. Only this brings up the question what caused you to be suddenly born randomly? And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.

Before you were born it was nothing

This is not a true statement. Information existed in the genetics of the egg and sperm that unite to begin forming a body. Where did that information come from?

Just like most of the people, you don't understand what information really is.

Information is not an intrinsic phenomenon. : :

Where did you plagiarize that statement from?

I have many original ideas. It's one of them. : :

I understand what it takes to form any visible object. It certainly doesn't appear from nothing.

When you understand it, you can think of it as a piece of information.
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
pacchu
Posts: 68
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7/25/2016 3:12:52 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 3:09:20 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:05:36 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:04:05 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:00:28 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:49:36 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:26:54 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
Death was guaranteed to you the moment you were conceived from birth. Before you were born it was nothing and after you were born it is possible it will be the exact same. Only this brings up the question what caused you to be suddenly born randomly? And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.

Before you were born it was nothing

This is not a true statement. Information existed in the genetics of the egg and sperm that unite to begin forming a body. Where did that information come from?

Just like most of the people, you don't understand what information really is.

Information is not an intrinsic phenomenon. : :

Where did you plagiarize that statement from?

I have many original ideas. It's one of them. : :

I understand what it takes to form any visible object. It certainly doesn't appear from nothing.

When you understand it, you can think of it as a piece of information.

It took 6 years worth of information fed into my consciousness to learn how a visible object is formed. Now that I understand it, it takes information in the consciousness of other people to accept that knowledge. Have you had enough information sent into your consciousness to accept the knowledge that I understand very well?
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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7/25/2016 4:38:51 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 2:42:49 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 8:54:00 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
What caused you to be suddenly born randomly?
Individuals are born. Each has a sense of identity built from their experiences and the way they interpret and value them.
However, I am not the self identity. I have an identity of myself.
Suppose someone threatened to replace your brain with an organically and genetically identical brain, which nevertheless had different knowledge, experiences, memories, relationships and values. Would you accept that proposal indifferently, or consider it murder?
A new born has no memories or experience. And he is ALIVE.
.. completely missed the point.

Riwaaz, this reply acknowledges that I have read your post. However, I found it vague, uninteresting, and could not establish relevance to topic, so I regret that I have no substantive reply for you.
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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7/25/2016 5:11:12 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 4:38:51 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:42:49 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 8:54:00 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
What caused you to be suddenly born randomly?
Individuals are born. Each has a sense of identity built from their experiences and the way they interpret and value them.
However, I am not the self identity. I have an identity of myself.
Suppose someone threatened to replace your brain with an organically and genetically identical brain, which nevertheless had different knowledge, experiences, memories, relationships and values. Would you accept that proposal indifferently, or consider it murder?
A new born has no memories or experience. And he is ALIVE.
.. completely missed the point.

Riwaaz, this reply acknowledges that I have read your post. However, I found it vague, uninteresting, and could not establish relevance to topic, so I regret that I have no substantive reply for you.

The point is : I am not just my experience and memories. My identity is not me.

In life, all the thoughts are subject to change. That doesn't mean I a part of me is killed when I change my viewpoint.

Loss of memory doesn't translate to death.
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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7/25/2016 5:31:24 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 5:11:12 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:38:51 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:42:49 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 8:54:00 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
What caused you to be suddenly born randomly?
Individuals are born. Each has a sense of identity built from their experiences and the way they interpret and value them.
However, I am not the self identity. I have an identity of myself.
Riwaaz, this reply acknowledges that I have read your post. However, I found it vague, uninteresting, and could not establish relevance to topic, so I regret that I have no substantive reply for you.
The point is : I am not just my experience and memories. My identity is not me.
Please quote where I said identity is only your experience and memories. If you cannot, then you are arguing with a strawman. Again, I have no reply for that.

In life, all the thoughts are subject to change. That doesn't mean I a part of me is killed when I change my viewpoint.
Loss of memory doesn't translate to death.
Would you be content to incur brain-damage where your memories are lost? If not then you agree with the only point I have proposed -- that memories are central to the way in which we value self.
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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7/25/2016 5:46:26 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 5:31:24 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/25/2016 5:11:12 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:38:51 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:42:49 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 8:54:00 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
What caused you to be suddenly born randomly?
Individuals are born. Each has a sense of identity built from their experiences and the way they interpret and value them.
However, I am not the self identity. I have an identity of myself.
Riwaaz, this reply acknowledges that I have read your post. However, I found it vague, uninteresting, and could not establish relevance to topic, so I regret that I have no substantive reply for you.
The point is : I am not just my experience and memories. My identity is not me.
Please quote where I said identity is only your experience and memories. If you cannot, then you are arguing with a strawman. Again, I have no reply for that.

In life, all the thoughts are subject to change. That doesn't mean I a part of me is killed when I change my viewpoint.
Loss of memory doesn't translate to death.
Would you be content to incur brain-damage where your memories are lost? If not then you agree with the only point I have proposed -- that memories are central to the way in which we value self.

I may not be content but I certainly won't die by loosing memories.
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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7/25/2016 5:52:15 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 3:12:52 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:09:20 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:05:36 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:04:05 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:00:28 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:49:36 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:26:54 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
Death was guaranteed to you the moment you were conceived from birth. Before you were born it was nothing and after you were born it is possible it will be the exact same. Only this brings up the question what caused you to be suddenly born randomly? And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.

Before you were born it was nothing

This is not a true statement. Information existed in the genetics of the egg and sperm that unite to begin forming a body. Where did that information come from?

Just like most of the people, you don't understand what information really is.

Information is not an intrinsic phenomenon. : :

Where did you plagiarize that statement from?

I have many original ideas. It's one of them. : :

I understand what it takes to form any visible object. It certainly doesn't appear from nothing.

When you understand it, you can think of it as a piece of information.

It took 6 years worth of information fed into my consciousness to learn how a visible object is formed. Now that I understand it, it takes information in the consciousness of other people to accept that knowledge. Have you had enough information sent into your consciousness to accept the knowledge that I understand very well?

It takes knowledge to be informed. Not vice versa.
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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7/25/2016 6:40:08 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 5:46:26 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 5:31:24 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Would you be content to incur brain-damage where your memories are lost? If not then you agree with the only point I have proposed -- that memories are central to the way in which we value self.
I may not be content but I certainly won't die by losing memories.
Let's suppose you won't. But so what?

What decisions might you make differently today based on a past self you cannot remember and for which there is no evidence? What altered decisions would a future 'self' make, based on the current self it cannot recall and for which there shall be no evidence?

That was the question I asked our OP. Are you able to answer it?
pacchu
Posts: 68
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7/25/2016 7:03:24 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 5:52:15 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:12:52 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:09:20 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:05:36 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:04:05 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:00:28 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:49:36 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:26:54 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
Death was guaranteed to you the moment you were conceived from birth. Before you were born it was nothing and after you were born it is possible it will be the exact same. Only this brings up the question what caused you to be suddenly born randomly? And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.

Before you were born it was nothing

This is not a true statement. Information existed in the genetics of the egg and sperm that unite to begin forming a body. Where did that information come from?

Just like most of the people, you don't understand what information really is.

Information is not an intrinsic phenomenon. : :

Where did you plagiarize that statement from?

I have many original ideas. It's one of them. : :

I understand what it takes to form any visible object. It certainly doesn't appear from nothing.

When you understand it, you can think of it as a piece of information.

It took 6 years worth of information fed into my consciousness to learn how a visible object is formed. Now that I understand it, it takes information in the consciousness of other people to accept that knowledge. Have you had enough information sent into your consciousness to accept the knowledge that I understand very well?

It takes knowledge to be informed. Not vice versa. : :

It takes information to make knowledge. One wavelength is the lowest common form of information that is used in combination with trillions of other wavelengths that we call frequencies is what carries the knowledge into our consciousness. Those frequencies are then converted ( processed ) into visible objects that we perceive with our sense of sight, sounds that we hear, and senses of touch, smell and taste along with language, images that we can build, etc.

It's obvious you don't have much knowledge to understand what information is.
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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7/26/2016 3:58:44 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 7:03:24 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 5:52:15 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:12:52 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:09:20 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:05:36 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:04:05 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:00:28 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:49:36 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:26:54 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
Death was guaranteed to you the moment you were conceived from birth. Before you were born it was nothing and after you were born it is possible it will be the exact same. Only this brings up the question what caused you to be suddenly born randomly? And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.

Before you were born it was nothing

This is not a true statement. Information existed in the genetics of the egg and sperm that unite to begin forming a body. Where did that information come from?

Just like most of the people, you don't understand what information really is.

Information is not an intrinsic phenomenon. : :

Where did you plagiarize that statement from?

I have many original ideas. It's one of them. : :

I understand what it takes to form any visible object. It certainly doesn't appear from nothing.

When you understand it, you can think of it as a piece of information.

It took 6 years worth of information fed into my consciousness to learn how a visible object is formed. Now that I understand it, it takes information in the consciousness of other people to accept that knowledge. Have you had enough information sent into your consciousness to accept the knowledge that I understand very well?

It takes knowledge to be informed. Not vice versa. : :

It takes information to make knowledge. One wavelength is the lowest common form of information that is used in combination with trillions of other wavelengths that we call frequencies is what carries the knowledge into our consciousness. Those frequencies are then converted ( processed ) into visible objects that we perceive with our sense of sight, sounds that we hear, and senses of touch, smell and taste along with language, images that we can build, etc.

It's obvious you don't have much knowledge to understand what information is.

Wavelength is not information, it has information. How do you know?
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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7/26/2016 4:07:47 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 6:40:08 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/25/2016 5:46:26 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 5:31:24 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Would you be content to incur brain-damage where your memories are lost? If not then you agree with the only point I have proposed -- that memories are central to the way in which we value self.
I may not be content but I certainly won't die by losing memories.
Let's suppose you won't. But so what?

I definitely won't be killed. Newborn babies are not dead.

What decisions might you make differently today based on a past self you cannot remember and for which there is no evidence? What altered decisions would a future 'self' make, based on the current self it cannot recall and for which there shall be no evidence?

That was the question I asked our OP. Are you able to answer it?

Decision I will be making are likely to be different when compared to the 'earlier' me. And it only strengthens the opinion that free will exists.

OP has asked -

And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.

What if it happens randomly when I am alive? Can there be two Riwaazs?
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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7/26/2016 4:15:40 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 4:07:47 AM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 6:40:08 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/25/2016 5:46:26 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 5:31:24 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Would you be content to incur brain-damage where your memories are lost? If not then you agree with the only point I have proposed -- that memories are central to the way in which we value self.
I may not be content but I certainly won't die by losing memories.
Let's suppose you won't. But so what?
I definitely won't be killed. Newborn babies are not dead.
It sounds like you know what you believe.

What decisions might you make differently today based on a past self you cannot remember and for which there is no evidence? What altered decisions would a future 'self' make, based on the current self it cannot recall and for which there shall be no evidence?
That was the question I asked our OP. Are you able to answer it?
Decision I will be making are likely to be different when compared to the 'earlier' me. And it only strengthens the opinion that free will exists.
And it sounds like you're content with it.

OP has asked -
And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.
What if it happens randomly when I am alive? Can there be two Riwaazs?
That sounds like a good question for the OP. Unfortunately, to me it's not meaningful.
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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7/26/2016 4:21:43 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 4:15:40 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/26/2016 4:07:47 AM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 6:40:08 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/25/2016 5:46:26 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 5:31:24 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Would you be content to incur brain-damage where your memories are lost? If not then you agree with the only point I have proposed -- that memories are central to the way in which we value self.
I may not be content but I certainly won't die by losing memories.
Let's suppose you won't. But so what?
I definitely won't be killed. Newborn babies are not dead.
It sounds like you know what you believe.

What decisions might you make differently today based on a past self you cannot remember and for which there is no evidence? What altered decisions would a future 'self' make, based on the current self it cannot recall and for which there shall be no evidence?
That was the question I asked our OP. Are you able to answer it?
Decision I will be making are likely to be different when compared to the 'earlier' me. And it only strengthens the opinion that free will exists.
And it sounds like you're content with it.

OP has asked -
And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.
What if it happens randomly when I am alive? Can there be two Riwaazs?
That sounds like a good question for the OP. Unfortunately, to me it's not meaningful.

You don't seem to be interested at all.. Draba, is everything fine?
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
RuvDraba
Posts: 6,033
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7/26/2016 5:09:26 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 4:21:43 AM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/26/2016 4:15:40 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/26/2016 4:07:47 AM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 6:40:08 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/25/2016 5:46:26 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 5:31:24 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Would you be content to incur brain-damage where your memories are lost? If not then you agree with the only point I have proposed -- that memories are central to the way in which we value self.
I may not be content but I certainly won't die by losing memories.
Let's suppose you won't. But so what?
I definitely won't be killed. Newborn babies are not dead.
It sounds like you know what you believe.

What decisions might you make differently today based on a past self you cannot remember and for which there is no evidence? What altered decisions would a future 'self' make, based on the current self it cannot recall and for which there shall be no evidence?
That was the question I asked our OP. Are you able to answer it?
Decision I will be making are likely to be different when compared to the 'earlier' me. And it only strengthens the opinion that free will exists.
And it sounds like you're content with it.

OP has asked -
And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.
What if it happens randomly when I am alive? Can there be two Riwaazs?
That sounds like a good question for the OP. Unfortunately, to me it's not meaningful.

You don't seem to be interested at all.. Draba, is everything fine?

All is well with me, Riwaaz, and thank you for your inquiry. To explain my response, you've made two points: one is that you hold your identity is unrelated to your memory; another is a question about whether identity can be shared over two bodies simultaneously.

I accept that you believe identity is unrelated to memory, and that you are happy with that belief. Since your identity can be defined however you wish, it's not mine to advise you to define it some other way. Therefore whether I agree with your definition or not, I have no argument with your belief.

I cannot answer your question though, since it is not meaningful to me unless we agree on a meaning of identity.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,048
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7/26/2016 8:22:37 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
I think an excellent way to avoid getting bogged down in semantics and definition is to use thought experiments with star-trek teleporters, particularly slightly faulty ones!

Rather then asking the vague and ambiguous question 'Can there be two Riwaazs' we
suppose R beams from some planet up to the USS Enterprise but a glitch results in two identical copies of him appearing on the receiving pad. How many R's do we have?
pacchu
Posts: 68
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7/26/2016 2:19:23 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 3:58:44 AM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 7:03:24 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 5:52:15 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:12:52 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:09:20 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:05:36 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:04:05 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 3:00:28 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:49:36 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:26:54 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
Death was guaranteed to you the moment you were conceived from birth. Before you were born it was nothing and after you were born it is possible it will be the exact same. Only this brings up the question what caused you to be suddenly born randomly? And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.

Before you were born it was nothing

This is not a true statement. Information existed in the genetics of the egg and sperm that unite to begin forming a body. Where did that information come from?

Just like most of the people, you don't understand what information really is.

Information is not an intrinsic phenomenon. : :

Where did you plagiarize that statement from?

I have many original ideas. It's one of them. : :

I understand what it takes to form any visible object. It certainly doesn't appear from nothing.

When you understand it, you can think of it as a piece of information.

It took 6 years worth of information fed into my consciousness to learn how a visible object is formed. Now that I understand it, it takes information in the consciousness of other people to accept that knowledge. Have you had enough information sent into your consciousness to accept the knowledge that I understand very well?

It takes knowledge to be informed. Not vice versa. : :

It takes information to make knowledge. One wavelength is the lowest common form of information that is used in combination with trillions of other wavelengths that we call frequencies is what carries the knowledge into our consciousness. Those frequencies are then converted ( processed ) into visible objects that we perceive with our sense of sight, sounds that we hear, and senses of touch, smell and taste along with language, images that we can build, etc.

It's obvious you don't have much knowledge to understand what information is.

Wavelength is not information, it has information. How do you know? : :

By the one who created those wavelengths and all the frequencies that give us life experiences.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,500
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7/26/2016 3:02:28 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/25/2016 2:49:36 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:26:54 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
Death was guaranteed to you the moment you were conceived from birth. Before you were born it was nothing and after you were born it is possible it will be the exact same. Only this brings up the question what caused you to be suddenly born randomly? And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.

Before you were born it was nothing

This is not a true statement. Information existed in the genetics of the egg and sperm that unite to begin forming a body. Where did that information come from?

Just like most of the people, you don't understand what information really is.

Information is not an intrinsic phenomenon.

What is your argument here? You are quite right that information is not intrinsic. That is, it has an external source. So "Where did that information come from" suggests that he understands information.
This space for rent.
Riwaaz_Ras
Posts: 1,046
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7/26/2016 3:30:42 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 5:09:26 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/26/2016 4:21:43 AM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/26/2016 4:15:40 AM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/26/2016 4:07:47 AM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 6:40:08 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
At 7/25/2016 5:46:26 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 5:31:24 PM, RuvDraba wrote:
Would you be content to incur brain-damage where your memories are lost? If not then you agree with the only point I have proposed -- that memories are central to the way in which we value self.
I may not be content but I certainly won't die by losing memories.
Let's suppose you won't. But so what?
I definitely won't be killed. Newborn babies are not dead.
It sounds like you know what you believe.

What decisions might you make differently today based on a past self you cannot remember and for which there is no evidence? What altered decisions would a future 'self' make, based on the current self it cannot recall and for which there shall be no evidence?
That was the question I asked our OP. Are you able to answer it?
Decision I will be making are likely to be different when compared to the 'earlier' me. And it only strengthens the opinion that free will exists.
And it sounds like you're content with it.

OP has asked -
And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.
What if it happens randomly when I am alive? Can there be two Riwaazs?
That sounds like a good question for the OP. Unfortunately, to me it's not meaningful.

You don't seem to be interested at all.. Draba, is everything fine?

All is well with me, Riwaaz, and thank you for your inquiry. To explain my response, you've made two points: one is that you hold your identity is unrelated to your memory; another is a question about whether identity can be shared over two bodies simultaneously.

I accept that you believe identity is unrelated to memory, and that you are happy with that belief. Since your identity can be defined however you wish, it's not mine to advise you to define it some other way. Therefore whether I agree with your definition or not, I have no argument with your belief.

I cannot answer your question though, since it is not meaningful to me unless we agree on a meaning of identity.

I am not saying that identity is unrelated to one's memory. I am saying I am not my memory and identity , I have my memory and identity. Loosing them won't kill me.

As per my Intuition, I can not exist in two bodies. I can not think two things at one time.
(This is not a goodbye message. I may or may not come back after ten years.)
pacchu
Posts: 68
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7/26/2016 3:45:52 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 3:02:28 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:49:36 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:26:54 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
Death was guaranteed to you the moment you were conceived from birth. Before you were born it was nothing and after you were born it is possible it will be the exact same. Only this brings up the question what caused you to be suddenly born randomly? And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.

Before you were born it was nothing

This is not a true statement. Information existed in the genetics of the egg and sperm that unite to begin forming a body. Where did that information come from?

Just like most of the people, you don't understand what information really is.

Information is not an intrinsic phenomenon.

What is your argument here? You are quite right that information is not intrinsic. That is, it has an external source. So "Where did that information come from" suggests that he understands information. : :

Thanks for your help.
lawlypants
Posts: 379
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7/26/2016 4:23:53 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/26/2016 3:02:28 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 7/25/2016 2:49:36 PM, Riwaaz_Ras wrote:
At 7/25/2016 1:26:54 PM, pacchu wrote:
At 7/25/2016 4:22:44 AM, tropicalstorm12 wrote:
Death was guaranteed to you the moment you were conceived from birth. Before you were born it was nothing and after you were born it is possible it will be the exact same. Only this brings up the question what caused you to be suddenly born randomly? And what is the possibility that it could happen again "randomly" after you die just like it did for us since we are here now.

Before you were born it was nothing

This is not a true statement. Information existed in the genetics of the egg and sperm that unite to begin forming a body. Where did that information come from?

Just like most of the people, you don't understand what information really is.

Information is not an intrinsic phenomenon.

What is your argument here? You are quite right that information is not intrinsic. That is, it has an external source. So "Where did that information come from" suggests that he understands information.

The most likely direction this is heading towards, in my opinion, is that there is an Ultimate Eternal Uncaused Cause at work here (Occams Razor + Infinite Regress => Kalam Cosmological Argument) . Actually, most topics discussed would/can/do ultimately point back to this and the questioners get hit in the face with this constantly, at which point some of the questioners "panic" and try to dodge what I would personally consider "obvious", as any logical, rational, reasonable, intellectual, scientific person would, regardless of where, when, how they were born etc. Acknowledging this solves a lot of problems, and not acknowledging this opens up the flood-gates for confusion.