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UUU
Posts: 176
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8/10/2016 4:22:51 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Accident. Word that best describes theories of today.

I was reading this article and guess what I found.

Many particle theorists now acknowledge a long-looming possibility: that the mass of the Higgs boson is simply unnatural " its small value resulting from an accidental, fine-tuned cancellation in a cosmic game of tug-of-war " and that we observe such a peculiar property because our lives depend on it. In this scenario, there are many, many universes, each shaped by different chance combinations of effects. Out of all these universes, only the ones with accidentally lightweight Higgs bosons will allow atoms to form and thus give rise to living beings.

https://www.quantamagazine.org...

OK, big bang, abiogenesis and mutations - all of these have something in common. These are supposed to be accidental and unintended . Now we are looking at one more theory based on series of accidents!

Now here's a crazy incredible story, everything is unlikely about it but read it anyway :
Imagine a Grand Convincing Fest being organized. A physicist travels back in time to enlightene the dogmatic masses. She was a bit too late, the last one to speak there. Worst of all : There's not much time left before the time runs out.

Subject - here's why you should give away your god. Yes, science can explain everything.

Masses - how?

The physicist - OK I'm gonna keep this short. IT JUST HAPPENED.
janesix
Posts: 3,491
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8/10/2016 5:04:25 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 4:22:51 AM, UUU wrote:
Accident. Word that best describes theories of today.

I was reading this article and guess what I found.

Many particle theorists now acknowledge a long-looming possibility: that the mass of the Higgs boson is simply unnatural " its small value resulting from an accidental, fine-tuned cancellation in a cosmic game of tug-of-war " and that we observe such a peculiar property because our lives depend on it. In this scenario, there are many, many universes, each shaped by different chance combinations of effects. Out of all these universes, only the ones with accidentally lightweight Higgs bosons will allow atoms to form and thus give rise to living beings.

https://www.quantamagazine.org...

OK, big bang, abiogenesis and mutations - all of these have something in common. These are supposed to be accidental and unintended . Now we are looking at one more theory based on series of accidents!

Now here's a crazy incredible story, everything is unlikely about it but read it anyway :
Imagine a Grand Convincing Fest being organized. A physicist travels back in time to enlightene the dogmatic masses. She was a bit too late, the last one to speak there. Worst of all : There's not much time left before the time runs out.

Subject - here's why you should give away your god. Yes, science can explain everything.

Masses - how?

The physicist - OK I'm gonna keep this short. IT JUST HAPPENED.
Yeah, its a lot of crap to buy.
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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8/10/2016 6:45:11 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 5:04:25 AM, janesix wrote:
At 8/10/2016 4:22:51 AM, UUU wrote:
Accident. Word that best describes theories of today.

I was reading this article and guess what I found.

Many particle theorists now acknowledge a long-looming possibility: that the mass of the Higgs boson is simply unnatural " its small value resulting from an accidental, fine-tuned cancellation in a cosmic game of tug-of-war " and that we observe such a peculiar property because our lives depend on it. In this scenario, there are many, many universes, each shaped by different chance combinations of effects. Out of all these universes, only the ones with accidentally lightweight Higgs bosons will allow atoms to form and thus give rise to living beings.

https://www.quantamagazine.org...

OK, big bang, abiogenesis and mutations - all of these have something in common. These are supposed to be accidental and unintended . Now we are looking at one more theory based on series of accidents!

Now here's a crazy incredible story, everything is unlikely about it but read it anyway :
Imagine a Grand Convincing Fest being organized. A physicist travels back in time to enlightene the dogmatic masses. She was a bit too late, the last one to speak there. Worst of all : There's not much time left before the time runs out.

Subject - here's why you should give away your god. Yes, science can explain everything.

Masses - how?

The physicist - OK I'm gonna keep this short. IT JUST HAPPENED.
Yeah, its a lot of crap to buy.

So lets make up a story about a fairy doing it instead. A fairy who's side interests include an unhealthy interest in people's sex lives and banning people from eating shellfish.
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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8/10/2016 7:14:57 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 6:45:11 AM, desmac wrote:
At 8/10/2016 5:04:25 AM, janesix wrote:
At 8/10/2016 4:22:51 AM, UUU wrote:
Accident. Word that best describes theories of today.

I was reading this article and guess what I found.

Many particle theorists now acknowledge a long-looming possibility: that the mass of the Higgs boson is simply unnatural " its small value resulting from an accidental, fine-tuned cancellation in a cosmic game of tug-of-war " and that we observe such a peculiar property because our lives depend on it. In this scenario, there are many, many universes, each shaped by different chance combinations of effects. Out of all these universes, only the ones with accidentally lightweight Higgs bosons will allow atoms to form and thus give rise to living beings.

https://www.quantamagazine.org...

OK, big bang, abiogenesis and mutations - all of these have something in common. These are supposed to be accidental and unintended . Now we are looking at one more theory based on series of accidents!

Now here's a crazy incredible story, everything is unlikely about it but read it anyway :
Imagine a Grand Convincing Fest being organized. A physicist travels back in time to enlightene the dogmatic masses. She was a bit too late, the last one to speak there. Worst of all : There's not much time left before the time runs out.

Subject - here's why you should give away your god. Yes, science can explain everything.

Masses - how?

The physicist - OK I'm gonna keep this short. IT JUST HAPPENED.
Yeah, its a lot of crap to buy.

So lets make up a story about a fairy doing it instead. A fairy who's side interests include an unhealthy interest in people's sex lives and banning people from eating shellfish.
You don't think a persons sexual health is important? Or their diet?
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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8/10/2016 7:22:24 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 7:14:57 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/10/2016 6:45:11 AM, desmac wrote:
At 8/10/2016 5:04:25 AM, janesix wrote:
At 8/10/2016 4:22:51 AM, UUU wrote:
Accident. Word that best describes theories of today.

I was reading this article and guess what I found.

Many particle theorists now acknowledge a long-looming possibility: that the mass of the Higgs boson is simply unnatural " its small value resulting from an accidental, fine-tuned cancellation in a cosmic game of tug-of-war " and that we observe such a peculiar property because our lives depend on it. In this scenario, there are many, many universes, each shaped by different chance combinations of effects. Out of all these universes, only the ones with accidentally lightweight Higgs bosons will allow atoms to form and thus give rise to living beings.

https://www.quantamagazine.org...

OK, big bang, abiogenesis and mutations - all of these have something in common. These are supposed to be accidental and unintended . Now we are looking at one more theory based on series of accidents!

Now here's a crazy incredible story, everything is unlikely about it but read it anyway :
Imagine a Grand Convincing Fest being organized. A physicist travels back in time to enlightene the dogmatic masses. She was a bit too late, the last one to speak there. Worst of all : There's not much time left before the time runs out.

Subject - here's why you should give away your god. Yes, science can explain everything.

Masses - how?

The physicist - OK I'm gonna keep this short. IT JUST HAPPENED.
Yeah, its a lot of crap to buy.

So lets make up a story about a fairy doing it instead. A fairy who's side interests include an unhealthy interest in people's sex lives and banning people from eating shellfish.
You don't think a persons sexual health is important? Or their diet?

Did I say that?
dee-em
Posts: 6,492
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8/10/2016 1:54:42 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 4:22:51 AM, UUU wrote:
Accident. Word that best describes theories of today.

I was reading this article and guess what I found.

Many particle theorists now acknowledge a long-looming possibility: that the mass of the Higgs boson is simply unnatural " its small value resulting from an accidental, fine-tuned cancellation in a cosmic game of tug-of-war " and that we observe such a peculiar property because our lives depend on it. In this scenario, there are many, many universes, each shaped by different chance combinations of effects. Out of all these universes, only the ones with accidentally lightweight Higgs bosons will allow atoms to form and thus give rise to living beings.

https://www.quantamagazine.org...

OK, big bang, abiogenesis and mutations - all of these have something in common. These are supposed to be accidental and unintended . Now we are looking at one more theory based on series of accidents!

Now here's a crazy incredible story, everything is unlikely about it but read it anyway :
Imagine a Grand Convincing Fest being organized. A physicist travels back in time to enlightene the dogmatic masses. She was a bit too late, the last one to speak there. Worst of all : There's not much time left before the time runs out.

Subject - here's why you should give away your god. Yes, science can explain everything.

Masses - how?

The physicist - OK I'm gonna keep this short. IT JUST HAPPENED.

Firstly, you are quoting from an article in a popular science magazine. This is hardly established science. It is aimed at an educated but lay audience.

Secondly, nice quote-mining. The very next sentence was:

But this "anthropic" argument is widely disliked for being seemingly untestable.

The article then went on to discuss alternative ideas which were being explored. You aren't interested in those ideas obviously. You would rather the cheap shot using an introductory paragraph.

Lastly, accepting that there are many universes and only a few have light-weight bosons which lead to stable atoms and the possibility of living beings, then which type of universe would you expect to find yourself in? Do you think that is accidental or the only way it could be?
wuliheron
Posts: 105
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8/10/2016 4:15:38 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
John Wheeler famously said, "A black hole has no hair! Gravity without mass! The only law is the law that there are no laws! Time is what prevents everything from happening at once!" To which Richard Feignmen remarked, "Some say Wheeler's lost his mind in his later years, but he's always been that way."

Wheeler is famous for his "Participatory Anthropic Principle". Knowledge and awareness define one another and the law of identity is founded upon Socrates insisting the only thing he knew was that he knew nothing. Without authenticity neither knowledge nor awareness have any demonstrable meaning which is why it is pointless to argue with someone when the lights might be on but nobody is home. Calling the universe "random" or the Higg's boson "random" has no meaning outside the context of the orderly and you might as well be spouting mystical metaphysical mumbo jumbo. When you can no longer identify that you have identified nothing you have personal problems to deal with.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,084
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8/10/2016 4:30:33 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
So lets make up a story about a fairy doing it instead. A fairy who's side interests include an unhealthy interest in people's sex lives and banning people from eating shellfish.

Magnifique! That comment makes anything I could say superfluous, so '+1'.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,505
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8/10/2016 6:24:47 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 7:22:24 AM, desmac wrote:
...

So lets make up a story about a fairy doing it instead. A fairy who's side interests include an unhealthy interest in people's sex lives and banning people from eating shellfish.
You don't think a persons sexual health is important? Or their diet?

Did I say that?

Does anybody ever own up to saying something stupid on here, lol? Bigotry stuck a pin in your silly comment. Plus which, is pretty juvenile to try to insult God by calling him a fairy. I'm not even sure what homophobic or misogynistic veiled insult you have in mind there.
This space for rent.
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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8/10/2016 7:10:28 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 6:24:47 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:22:24 AM, desmac wrote:
...

So lets make up a story about a fairy doing it instead. A fairy who's side interests include an unhealthy interest in people's sex lives and banning people from eating shellfish.
You don't think a persons sexual health is important? Or their diet?

Did I say that?

Does anybody ever own up to saying something stupid on here, lol? Bigotry stuck a pin in your silly comment. Plus which, is pretty juvenile to try to insult God by calling him a fairy. I'm not even sure what homophobic or misogynistic veiled insult you have in mind there.

I freely admit to saying a miriad stupid things a day on here. However in this case it is impossible to insult something which dosn't exist. My allusion to fairy refers to the other worldly Faerie kingdom, which also dosn't exist.
janesix
Posts: 3,491
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8/10/2016 8:03:24 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 6:45:11 AM, desmac wrote:
At 8/10/2016 5:04:25 AM, janesix wrote:
At 8/10/2016 4:22:51 AM, UUU wrote:
Accident. Word that best describes theories of today.

I was reading this article and guess what I found.

Many particle theorists now acknowledge a long-looming possibility: that the mass of the Higgs boson is simply unnatural " its small value resulting from an accidental, fine-tuned cancellation in a cosmic game of tug-of-war " and that we observe such a peculiar property because our lives depend on it. In this scenario, there are many, many universes, each shaped by different chance combinations of effects. Out of all these universes, only the ones with accidentally lightweight Higgs bosons will allow atoms to form and thus give rise to living beings.

https://www.quantamagazine.org...

OK, big bang, abiogenesis and mutations - all of these have something in common. These are supposed to be accidental and unintended . Now we are looking at one more theory based on series of accidents!

Now here's a crazy incredible story, everything is unlikely about it but read it anyway :
Imagine a Grand Convincing Fest being organized. A physicist travels back in time to enlightene the dogmatic masses. She was a bit too late, the last one to speak there. Worst of all : There's not much time left before the time runs out.

Subject - here's why you should give away your god. Yes, science can explain everything.

Masses - how?

The physicist - OK I'm gonna keep this short. IT JUST HAPPENED.
Yeah, its a lot of crap to buy.

So lets make up a story about a fairy doing it instead. A fairy who's side interests include an unhealthy interest in people's sex lives and banning people from eating shellfish.

I've never done that. All I do is look around me and see that there is obviously a creator. I don't presume to know his nature. I make guesses based on what I see, but I am open to all possibilities.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,505
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8/10/2016 8:26:35 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 8:03:24 PM, janesix wrote:
... All I do is look around me and see that there is obviously a creator. I don't presume to know his nature. I make guesses based on what I see, but I am open to all possibilities.

Which seems to be quite the radical approach in some circles. Follow the evidence where it leads - crazy stuff there.
This space for rent.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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8/11/2016 12:48:48 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 4:22:51 AM, UUU wrote:
Accident. Word that best describes theories of today.

I was reading this article and guess what I found.

Many particle theorists now acknowledge a long-looming possibility: that the mass of the Higgs boson is simply unnatural " its small value resulting from an accidental, fine-tuned cancellation in a cosmic game of tug-of-war " and that we observe such a peculiar property because our lives depend on it. In this scenario, there are many, many universes, each shaped by different chance combinations of effects. Out of all these universes, only the ones with accidentally lightweight Higgs bosons will allow atoms to form and thus give rise to living beings.

https://www.quantamagazine.org...

How scientific and empirical. I didn't know we had proof we could see with our own eyes to what the weight of the higgs boson is in OTHER UNIVERSES!

Clearly experiments have gotten much better since I was in school.


OK, big bang, abiogenesis and mutations - all of these have something in common. These are supposed to be accidental and unintended . Now we are looking at one more theory based on series of accidents!

Now here's a crazy incredible story, everything is unlikely about it but read it anyway :
Imagine a Grand Convincing Fest being organized. A physicist travels back in time to enlightene the dogmatic masses. She was a bit too late, the last one to speak there. Worst of all : There's not much time left before the time runs out.

Subject - here's why you should give away your god. Yes, science can explain everything.

The answer is chance, accident, fluke, one of many universe we can't casually interact with. But that's the only way all this could be if a God does not exist. Because I feel so strongly God does not exist, then multiverse must be true it's the only rational way everything could happen.

that's the Atheist logic right there.


Masses - how?

The physicist - OK I'm gonna keep this short. IT JUST HAPPENED.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,084
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8/11/2016 12:53:02 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
All I do is look around me and see that there is obviously a creator. I don't presume to know his nature. I make guesses based on what I see, but I am open to all possibilities.

Which seems to be quite the radical approach in some circles. Follow the evidence where it leads - crazy stuff there.


J6 - Are you open to the possibility you are wrong about a creator?
bigotry
Posts: 1,068
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8/11/2016 2:19:18 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 7:22:24 AM, desmac wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:14:57 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/10/2016 6:45:11 AM, desmac wrote:
At 8/10/2016 5:04:25 AM, janesix wrote:
At 8/10/2016 4:22:51 AM, UUU wrote:
Accident. Word that best describes theories of today.

I was reading this article and guess what I found.

Many particle theorists now acknowledge a long-looming possibility: that the mass of the Higgs boson is simply unnatural " its small value resulting from an accidental, fine-tuned cancellation in a cosmic game of tug-of-war " and that we observe such a peculiar property because our lives depend on it. In this scenario, there are many, many universes, each shaped by different chance combinations of effects. Out of all these universes, only the ones with accidentally lightweight Higgs bosons will allow atoms to form and thus give rise to living beings.

https://www.quantamagazine.org...

OK, big bang, abiogenesis and mutations - all of these have something in common. These are supposed to be accidental and unintended . Now we are looking at one more theory based on series of accidents!

Now here's a crazy incredible story, everything is unlikely about it but read it anyway :
Imagine a Grand Convincing Fest being organized. A physicist travels back in time to enlightene the dogmatic masses. She was a bit too late, the last one to speak there. Worst of all : There's not much time left before the time runs out.

Subject - here's why you should give away your god. Yes, science can explain everything.

Masses - how?

The physicist - OK I'm gonna keep this short. IT JUST HAPPENED.
Yeah, its a lot of crap to buy.

So lets make up a story about a fairy doing it instead. A fairy who's side interests include an unhealthy interest in people's sex lives and banning people from eating shellfish.
You don't think a persons sexual health is important? Or their diet?

Did I say that?
not directly but it seems you suggested that God caring about a persons sex life and what they eat is somehow unreasonable.
UUU
Posts: 176
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8/11/2016 2:57:42 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
' Magnifique! That comment makes anything I could say superfluous, so '+1'.'

This goes without saying that atheists are emotional about their (lack of? ) beliefs. Just like their religious counterparts, they cheer for people with similar beliefs. Brotherhood is a good thing but why would a man urge to devalue his own life. I'm sure no one wants to be called product of an accident, aka rape.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,084
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8/11/2016 2:59:38 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
Not unreasonable, but it seems a bit petty and smacks of micro-management considering the universe is several billion years across and countains umpteen billions of stars and has entire galaxies in collison course.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,084
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8/11/2016 3:01:34 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 2:57:42 AM, UUU wrote:
' Magnifique! That comment makes anything I could say superfluous, so '+1'.'

This goes without saying that atheists are emotional about their (lack of? ) beliefs. Just like their religious counterparts, they cheer for people with similar beliefs. Brotherhood is a good thing but why would a man urge to devalue his own life. I'm sure no one wants to be called product of an accident, aka rape.

It wouldn't occur to me to call rape an accident....
UUU
Posts: 176
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8/11/2016 3:17:40 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
It wouldn't occur to me to call rape an accident....

Consider yourself the victim. For you, it was an accident.
distraff
Posts: 1,005
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8/11/2016 3:24:50 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/10/2016 4:22:51 AM, UUU wrote:
Accident. Word that best describes theories of today.

I was reading this article and guess what I found.

Many particle theorists now acknowledge a long-looming possibility: that the mass of the Higgs boson is simply unnatural " its small value resulting from an accidental, fine-tuned cancellation in a cosmic game of tug-of-war " and that we observe such a peculiar property because our lives depend on it. In this scenario, there are many, many universes, each shaped by different chance combinations of effects. Out of all these universes, only the ones with accidentally lightweight Higgs bosons will allow atoms to form and thus give rise to living beings.

https://www.quantamagazine.org...

OK, big bang, abiogenesis and mutations - all of these have something in common. These are supposed to be accidental and unintended . Now we are looking at one more theory based on series of accidents!

Now here's a crazy incredible story, everything is unlikely about it but read it anyway :
Imagine a Grand Convincing Fest being organized. A physicist travels back in time to enlightene the dogmatic masses. She was a bit too late, the last one to speak there. Worst of all : There's not much time left before the time runs out.

Subject - here's why you should give away your god. Yes, science can explain everything.

Masses - how?

The physicist - OK I'm gonna keep this short. IT JUST HAPPENED.

So ... because science can't currently explain something well then Christian mythology is the default explanation.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,084
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8/11/2016 3:40:24 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
It could be that UUU is proposing that the universe is ultimately 'reasonless'. A lot of people imagine or hope that a 'theory of everything' will include an explanation of the origin of the universe but the article linked to indicate some scientists are entertaning the idea the universe may be inexplicable, not merely because we don't yet know all the physics but inexplicable even in principle,
desmac
Posts: 5,078
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8/11/2016 6:18:15 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 2:19:18 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:22:24 AM, desmac wrote:
At 8/10/2016 7:14:57 AM, bigotry wrote:
At 8/10/2016 6:45:11 AM, desmac wrote:
At 8/10/2016 5:04:25 AM, janesix wrote:
At 8/10/2016 4:22:51 AM, UUU wrote:
Accident. Word that best describes theories of today.

I was reading this article and guess what I found.

Many particle theorists now acknowledge a long-looming possibility: that the mass of the Higgs boson is simply unnatural " its small value resulting from an accidental, fine-tuned cancellation in a cosmic game of tug-of-war " and that we observe such a peculiar property because our lives depend on it. In this scenario, there are many, many universes, each shaped by different chance combinations of effects. Out of all these universes, only the ones with accidentally lightweight Higgs bosons will allow atoms to form and thus give rise to living beings.

https://www.quantamagazine.org...

OK, big bang, abiogenesis and mutations - all of these have something in common. These are supposed to be accidental and unintended . Now we are looking at one more theory based on series of accidents!

Now here's a crazy incredible story, everything is unlikely about it but read it anyway :
Imagine a Grand Convincing Fest being organized. A physicist travels back in time to enlightene the dogmatic masses. She was a bit too late, the last one to speak there. Worst of all : There's not much time left before the time runs out.

Subject - here's why you should give away your god. Yes, science can explain everything.

Masses - how?

The physicist - OK I'm gonna keep this short. IT JUST HAPPENED.
Yeah, its a lot of crap to buy.

So lets make up a story about a fairy doing it instead. A fairy who's side interests include an unhealthy interest in people's sex lives and banning people from eating shellfish.
You don't think a persons sexual health is important? Or their diet?

Did I say that?
not directly but it seems you suggested that God caring about a persons sex life and what they eat is somehow unreasonable.

Everything to do with gods is totally unreasonable. If they exist, why is there not ome shred of tangible evidence for them?
Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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8/11/2016 7:25:46 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 12:48:48 AM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 8/10/2016 4:22:51 AM, UUU wrote:
Accident. Word that best describes theories of today.

I was reading this article and guess what I found.

Many particle theorists now acknowledge a long-looming possibility: that the mass of the Higgs boson is simply unnatural " its small value resulting from an accidental, fine-tuned cancellation in a cosmic game of tug-of-war " and that we observe such a peculiar property because our lives depend on it. In this scenario, there are many, many universes, each shaped by different chance combinations of effects. Out of all these universes, only the ones with accidentally lightweight Higgs bosons will allow atoms to form and thus give rise to living beings.

https://www.quantamagazine.org...

How scientific and empirical. I didn't know we had proof we could see with our own eyes to what the weight of the higgs boson is in OTHER UNIVERSES!

Clearly experiments have gotten much better since I was in school.


OK, big bang, abiogenesis and mutations - all of these have something in common. These are supposed to be accidental and unintended . Now we are looking at one more theory based on series of accidents!

Now here's a crazy incredible story, everything is unlikely about it but read it anyway :
Imagine a Grand Convincing Fest being organized. A physicist travels back in time to enlightene the dogmatic masses. She was a bit too late, the last one to speak there. Worst of all : There's not much time left before the time runs out.

Subject - here's why you should give away your god. Yes, science can explain everything.

The answer is chance, accident, fluke, one of many universe we can't casually interact with. But that's the only way all this could be if a God does not exist. Because I feel so strongly God does not exist, then multiverse must be true it's the only rational way everything could happen.

that's the Atheist logic right there.


Masses - how?

The physicist - OK I'm gonna keep this short. IT JUST HAPPENED.

Ah, speaking of a series of accidents.
Meh!
v3nesl
Posts: 4,505
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8/11/2016 2:46:36 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 12:53:02 AM, keithprosser wrote:
All I do is look around me and see that there is obviously a creator. I don't presume to know his nature. I make guesses based on what I see, but I am open to all possibilities.

Which seems to be quite the radical approach in some circles. Follow the evidence where it leads - crazy stuff there.


J6 - Are you open to the possibility you are wrong about a creator?

All you have to do is show how apparently created things can be done without a creator, and sure, an intellectually honest person will consider that a creator is not needed.

I'm reading an interesting book right now - "[Un]deniable" by Ph.D microbiologist Douglas Axe. One of the things he points to is work he himself and others have done that failed to emulate design at the lowest levels of life - changing the function of an enzyme by pseudo-random emulations of evolution, for example. The results were extremely limited, even with careful design of the conditions.

Which also reminds me of another brilliant book I read by George Gilder, where he makes the case that what can save modern economies is not adequately considered by any of the prominent economic theories. The only thing that can drive modern economies is creativity, he argues - the injection of fresh know-how.

So in many areas of human experience it is both intuitively clear and experiment tends to confirm that there simply is no substitute for intelligence. Certain results will simply not happen without an intelligent agent. That is why the logical thinker is a creationist. He may not be a fundamentalist Baptist, but he (or she!) most certainly recognizes the need for a creator of some sort.
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v3nesl
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8/11/2016 2:53:05 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 6:18:15 AM, desmac wrote:
....

Everything to do with gods is totally unreasonable. If they exist, why is there not ome shred of tangible evidence for them?

Which is a perfectly absurd thing to say, on several levels. But perhaps most profoundly - ALL tangible evidence is evidence for the creator. You may have a forest-for-the-trees kind of problem in your thinking. We're talking cosmology in this thread: Do we invent ever more imaginative theories to prop up materialism - TOTALLY speculative ideas like multiverse, or does the weight of absurdity eventually force you to consider the obvious explanation for the exquisite order of everything?

"Why is God so hard to know" is a perfectly valid question. But we get nowhere by petulant extremism like "there's not a shred of evidence".
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desmac
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8/11/2016 4:01:58 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 2:53:05 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 8/11/2016 6:18:15 AM, desmac wrote:
....

Everything to do with gods is totally unreasonable. If they exist, why is there not ome shred of tangible evidence for them?

Which is a perfectly absurd thing to say, on several levels. But perhaps most profoundly - ALL tangible evidence is evidence for the creator. You may have a forest-for-the-trees kind of problem in your thinking. We're talking cosmology in this thread: Do we invent ever more imaginative theories to prop up materialism - TOTALLY speculative ideas like multiverse, or does the weight of absurdity eventually force you to consider the obvious explanation for the exquisite order of everything?

"Why is God so hard to know" is a perfectly valid question. But we get nowhere by petulant extremism like "there's not a shred of evidence".

"Why is god so hard to know", the easiest question of them all. Because she dosn't exist.
v3nesl
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8/11/2016 4:25:52 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 4:01:58 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/11/2016 2:53:05 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 8/11/2016 6:18:15 AM, desmac wrote:
....

Everything to do with gods is totally unreasonable. If they exist, why is there not ome shred of tangible evidence for them?

Which is a perfectly absurd thing to say, on several levels. But perhaps most profoundly - ALL tangible evidence is evidence for the creator. You may have a forest-for-the-trees kind of problem in your thinking. We're talking cosmology in this thread: Do we invent ever more imaginative theories to prop up materialism - TOTALLY speculative ideas like multiverse, or does the weight of absurdity eventually force you to consider the obvious explanation for the exquisite order of everything?

"Why is God so hard to know" is a perfectly valid question. But we get nowhere by petulant extremism like "there's not a shred of evidence".

"Why is god so hard to know", the easiest question of them all. Because she dosn't exist.

Ok, suit yourself. But if you don't share what makes you take this position nobody can really address it. It's like telling us you don't like red shirts - ok, interesting thing to know, but not something that can be debated.
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desmac
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8/11/2016 4:42:18 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 4:25:52 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 8/11/2016 4:01:58 PM, desmac wrote:
At 8/11/2016 2:53:05 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 8/11/2016 6:18:15 AM, desmac wrote:
....

Everything to do with gods is totally unreasonable. If they exist, why is there not ome shred of tangible evidence for them?

Which is a perfectly absurd thing to say, on several levels. But perhaps most profoundly - ALL tangible evidence is evidence for the creator. You may have a forest-for-the-trees kind of problem in your thinking. We're talking cosmology in this thread: Do we invent ever more imaginative theories to prop up materialism - TOTALLY speculative ideas like multiverse, or does the weight of absurdity eventually force you to consider the obvious explanation for the exquisite order of everything?

"Why is God so hard to know" is a perfectly valid question. But we get nowhere by petulant extremism like "there's not a shred of evidence".

"Why is god so hard to know", the easiest question of them all. Because she dosn't exist.

Ok, suit yourself. But if you don't share what makes you take this position nobody can really address it. It's like telling us you don't like red shirts - ok, interesting thing to know, but not something that can be debated.

I love red shirts, and have several.

To address anything else, provide proof of your gods and we can take it from there.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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8/11/2016 6:48:55 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 8/11/2016 2:46:36 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 8/11/2016 12:53:02 AM, keithprosser wrote:
All I do is look around me and see that there is obviously a creator. I don't presume to know his nature. I make guesses based on what I see, but I am open to all possibilities.

Which seems to be quite the radical approach in some circles. Follow the evidence where it leads - crazy stuff there.


J6 - Are you open to the possibility you are wrong about a creator?

All you have to do is show how apparently created things can be done without a creator, and sure, an intellectually honest person will consider that a creator is not needed.

Ah, the theist's best friend - good ol' argument from ignorance.