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No Need for God?

Ogan
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1/3/2011 9:49:12 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Brian Cox in conversation with Stephen Hawking: Re: Science can explain the universe without the need for a Creator.

Brian Cox: "That's a wonderfully provocative sentence, actually. A beautiful answer. It's interesting, because you have previously used the word God in a similar way, in my view, to Einstein. I am thinking of phrases like "knowing the mind of God", which you used in A Brief History Of Time. In my opinion, Einstein was using the word God as a shorthand to convey the majesty and beauty of the laws of physics, and did not intend this to be taken as a sign that he subscribed to a particular religious doctrine. Is this the sense in which you have used the term before, and are you trying to clear up any misunderstandings caused by your previous use of the word "God", or have I read too much into your answer?"

Stephen Hawking: "In ‘A Brief History of Time' I used the word 'God' like Einstein did as a shorthand for the laws of physics. However, this is not what most people mean by God, so I have decided not to use the term. The laws of physics can explain the universe without the need for a God."

Quite correct Brian Cox, Einstein did not subscribe to "a particular religious doctrine" and neither does Stephen Hawking. But notice carefully the reason SH no longer uses the term ‘God', because "this is not what most people mean by God". It's also true that the laws of physics can explain the (known material) universe "without the need for a God". But let us look carefully at what Einstein actually said, since that great thinker and visionary is not around to defend himself.

"I believe in God… who reveals Himself in the orderly harmony of the universe. I believe that Intelligence is manifested throughout all Nature. The basis of scientific work is the conviction that the world is an ordered and comprehensible Entity and not a thing of chance."

Quite apart from believing in God, notice that he admits Intelligence manifested in all Nature. But most important, notice that he calls the ‘world' an Entity and not a thing of chance! The truth is, that mathematical forms in Nature imply a mathematical Thinker, and there is no escape from this.
Floid
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1/3/2011 10:35:29 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
It appears your version of the quote leaves out some key points that highlights what was meant:

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals Himself," he says, "in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of Human
beings. ... I believe that intelligence is manifested throughout all nature. ... The basis of all scientific work is the conviction that the world is an ordered and
comprehensible entity, and not a thing of chance."

I found this at: http://www.faculty.umb.edu...'s%20Philosophy%20of%20Religion.pdf

The citation in the paper quotes Einstein directly from the New York Times in 1929.

The key points missing from your quote:

Spinoza's God -> denies the idea of a personal god

"not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of Human
beings." -> self explanatory

Then to add a little extra meaning perhaps:

When Einstein made the point to say "not a thing of chance" he may have been taking a dig at quantum mechanics, which initially rejected (also the source of the famous "God does not play dice" quote). It appears that Einstein was wrong though as quantum mechanics, which is based heavily on probability and chance.

So is a mathematical thinker required? As of right now, it doesn't appear so. It appears we need a dice roller. Or way may just not have figured out the math yet, or we may be incapable of doing so...
mattrodstrom
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1/3/2011 10:42:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
All Einstein:

The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
-- Albert Einstein, in a letter responding to philosopher Eric Gutkind, who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt; quoted from James Randerson, "Childish Superstition: Einstein's Letter Makes View of Religion Relatively Clear: Scientist's Reply to Sell for up to £8,000, and Stoke Debate over His Beliefs" The Guardian, (13 May 2008)

I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
-- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press

It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere....

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

-- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press

now... whether he believed the universe could (as a whole), itself, be classified as "intelligent" may be up in the air... (though there's no reason to think it is so intelligent)

but he certainly didn't believe in a creator.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
PARADIGM_L0ST
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1/3/2011 11:26:11 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Quite apart from believing in God, notice that he admits Intelligence manifested in all Nature. But most important, notice that he calls the ‘world' an Entity and not a thing of chance! The truth is, that mathematical forms in Nature imply a mathematical Thinker, and there is no escape from this.:

I'm not really understanding your point. Can you please expound?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
Ogan
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1/3/2011 12:26:48 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/3/2011 11:26:11 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
Quite apart from believing in God, notice that he admits Intelligence manifested in all Nature. But most important, notice that he calls the ‘world' an Entity and not a thing of chance! The truth is, that mathematical forms in Nature imply a mathematical Thinker, and there is no escape from this.:

I'm not really understanding your point. Can you please expound?

I would say that Einstein like Hawking had to be very careful with his statements as they were easily misconstrued by a certain breed of hysterical churchgoers as well as cold atheists. He, like me or any other sensible person does not believe in a 'personal God' creating the Universe. We have to stretch our minds beyond our little perimeters and realise that the term God, in its original sense, was the UNKNOWN - as far as our little reasoning's go. This UNKNOWN, from which and back to which the Universe came and shall return, is now called Nothing by science – implying a state beyond its reasoning powers, theories or experiments. All the order and harmony in the material universe originated in and from this UNKNOWN.
I agree with Sir Arthur S. Eddington when he says:
"Something Unknown is doing what we don't know what – that is what our theory amounts to… Modern physics has eliminated the notion of substance… Mind is the first and most direct thing in our experience. I regard Consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from Consciousness… The old atheism is gone… Religion belongs to the realm of Spirit and Mind, and cannot be shaken."
Sir James Jeans also said "The Universe can be best pictured… as consisting of pure thought, the thought of what, for want of a wider word, we must describe as a mathematical thinker." This does away with the need of mentioning the dreaded word ‘God'.
Intelligence manifested in Nature would be a directed Life-Force upon and within atoms forming all things and giving rise to recognisable mathematical Laws within it. A Mind moving that Life-Force could also be called an ‘Entity'. This however will all be meaningless to the average churchgoer as well as the average atheist and cannot be helped.
Floid
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1/3/2011 1:08:46 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I agree with Sir Arthur S. Eddington when he says:
"Something Unknown is doing what we don't know what – that is what our theory amounts to… Modern physics has eliminated the notion of substance… Mind is the first and most direct thing in our experience. I regard Consciousness as fundamental.

I agree up to here, except I would say consciousness is fundamental to our experience. In the big picture however, our consciousness is inconsequential because except for observation and theorizing, our consciousness is stuck on a small rock orbiting one of hundreds of billions of stars that is in one of hundreds of billions of galaxies.

I regard matter as derivative from Consciousness… The old atheism is gone… Religion belongs to the realm of Spirit and Mind, and cannot be shaken."

It appears to be the other way around. Certain matter in particular configurations under exact conditions produces consciousness.

Sir James Jeans also said "The Universe can be best pictured… as consisting of pure thought, the thought of what, for want of a wider word, we must describe as a mathematical thinker." This does away with the need of mentioning the dreaded word ‘God'.

I would say its best pictured as mostly empty space speckled with dense patches of matter. Our thought appears to be a chance biproduct of a much bigger system.

Intelligence manifested in Nature would be a directed Life-Force upon and within atoms forming all things and giving rise to recognisable mathematical Laws within it.

But there is no life-force in atoms. For now it appears at the subatomic level that our mathematics is incapable of describing what happens. Maybe we haven't got there yet or maybe it really is a random process like it seems.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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1/3/2011 1:11:42 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I would say that Einstein like Hawking had to be very careful with his statements as they were easily misconstrued by a certain breed of hysterical churchgoers as well as cold atheists. He, like me or any other sensible person does not believe in a 'personal God' creating the Universe. We have to stretch our minds beyond our little perimeters and realise that the term God, in its original sense, was the UNKNOWN - as far as our little reasoning's go. This UNKNOWN, from which and back to which the Universe came and shall return, is now called Nothing by science – implying a state beyond its reasoning powers, theories or experiments. All the order and harmony in the material universe originated in and from this UNKNOWN.:

Thank you for clarifying. I wasn't sure if you were alluding to all signs pointing to a personal God.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
popculturepooka
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1/3/2011 1:15:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
"Re: Science can explain the universe without the need for a Creator."

Too bad his arguments for that conclusion suck.
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Ogan
Posts: 407
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1/3/2011 6:08:52 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ogan: I agree with Sir Arthur S. Eddington when he says:
"Something Unknown is doing what we don't know what – that is what our theory amounts to… Modern physics has eliminated the notion of substance… Mind is the first and most direct thing in our experience. I regard Consciousness as fundamental.

Floid: I agree up to here, except I would say consciousness is fundamental to our experience. In the big picture however, our consciousness is inconsequential because except for observation and theorizing, our consciousness is stuck on a small rock orbiting one of hundreds of billions of stars that is in one of hundreds of billions of galaxies.

Ogan: I regard matter as derivative from Consciousness… The old atheism is gone… Religion belongs to the realm of Spirit and Mind, and cannot be shaken."

Floid: It appears to be the other way around. Certain matter in particular configurations under exact conditions produces consciousness.

Ogan: Science has absolutely no idea whatsoever as to the nature of Consciousness and neither do you. That's where science teeters on the edge of what it finds impossible to know – but it will never admit it – it can't afford to! The consciousness you are aware of in particular is at present merely thought, imagination and sensual experience – but it is impossible for you to figure out the Observer of these mental phenomena who watches quietly and refuses to be investigated by any known means. So I say: Mind first, then Life or energy, then finally matter. Whereas you would have matter first then some kind of blind process leading to a mental phenomena, and no life-force or energy moving anything. So things co-ordinating themselves without a blueprint into structures far more complicated and living than we could ever produce WITH a blueprint – accidently and blindly – and without a life or force within the atoms.

Ogan: Sir James Jeans also said "The Universe can be best pictured… as consisting of pure thought, the thought of what, for want of a wider word, we must describe as a mathematical thinker." This does away with the need of mentioning the dreaded word ‘God'.

Floid: I would say its best pictured as mostly empty space speckled with dense patches of matter. Our thought appears to be a chance biproduct of a much bigger system.

Ogan: I won't be insulting, no matter how ridiculous that obviously is. But I will only give a simple example of numbers leading to natural geometric forms as in say, snowflakes or crystal lattices well known to science. It may appear to be blind or ‘natural' in some theoretical process to you, but to me it is an intelligent use of number and measure – the only known way to create geometrical forms - by acting with Force or Life upon the molecular bonds of H2O in snowdrops, frost and ice and also with many other elements in solid crystals. Intelligence manifested in Nature would be a directed Life-Force upon and within atoms forming all things and giving rise to recognisable mathematical Laws within it, such as attraction and repulsion.
In conclusion you say that there is no such thing as Life-Force active in atoms. You may have explained why ‘our mathematics' can't describe what is happening at the sub-atomic level yet, possibly because it will never accept the existence of Forces beyond the range of any thought, imagination, physical senses and physical instrumentation. It can't accept it, because only that which is exterior to the reason may be investigated. No matter how deep we go into so-called matter, it will always remain matter. No matter how far we propel ourselves into infinite space, matter will remain matter. This is the only laboratory available to science – matter! The existence of matter and force and mind existing and vibrating on a super-sensual level, if I may call it that, is the realm of Religion here in lower matter (but Science when we arrive) where no instrument or inquisitive measures may intrude into its wonderful Mysteries. It is utterly safe from any prying intellectual eyes, but it is always wide open to Love and Faith. This is indeed beyond rational and reasonable measure, but only while the individual knows not how very special and immortal they are behind, above or beyond this matter, when working with a superior mind, imagination and senses. When the magnetic pattern is withdrawn back to its own plane of vibrations, the material molecules – having lost the source of their attraction – begin to fall away from the form they had a hand in originally forming, sustaining and finally 'destroying' (or rather separation of its minute parts). The hand shakes off the material glove. Science investigates with great determination the glove, but knows absolutely nothing about the hand which moves it! All volition emanates from within whatever has volition; apart from when struck by the volition of others – the former is the beginning, the latter is the end… on this plane of vibrations.
jharry
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1/5/2011 12:36:13 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ogan,

Is this Spinoza's God a "person" like most Theists believe or is it more of a force that doesn't have capabilities like love or interest?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Puck
Posts: 6,457
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1/5/2011 12:43:14 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/5/2011 12:36:13 AM, jharry wrote:
Is this Spinoza's God a "person" like most Theists believe or is it more of a force that doesn't have capabilities like love or interest?

Deus, sive Natura - God is nature.
Ogan
Posts: 407
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1/5/2011 12:25:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
jharry:
Is this Spinoza's God a "person" like most Theists believe or is it more of a force that doesn't have capabilities like love or interest?

Ogan:
Neither of the above! The ONE LIFE or First Light (Fiat Lux) was radiated from the Unknown Root or Darkness, which is NOTHING to us – the Ultimate source of ALL. The ONE LIFE then emanated the whole of seven-fold manifested Nature and although also UNKNOWN, is named as the Supreme Deity. But it is beyond the capacity of human intellect to even conceive of what that might be.

"Whatsoever is said of Supreme Deity – that it is not. Whatsoever is said of the Creators – that is in Man!"

"It is the source of all Wisdom, which is Light, and the opposite of Intellect, which is a groping in the twilight, and even in darkness at times. All this groping leads nowhere, and although men, in their ignorance of intellectual pride, think that all Truth can be discovered by earthly reasoning, they but hide it by the use of meaningless phrases, theories, doctrines and dogmas, and quarrel one with another about the meaning of words; the letter killing the spirit time and again.
This is especially manifest in modern philosophy, and such men as Spinoza, Malebranche, Descartes and Leibnitz, the so-called metaphysicians, have added nothing to Truth; although the last named one had glimpses of it. When I say they have added nothing to Truth, I speak figuratively of course, for Truth is always the same, and nothing can be added to or taken away from it. But they have thickened the fog of materialism by using their erring sensual reasonings in order to describe that which is above all earthly reason and can only be discovered by the Spirit, and not by the senses. Therefore, they should not be called 'meta'-physicians, for although they 'think' to deal with that which is beyond physics, they are all the time ensnared by the web of physical thinking – which is not, and never can be, Spiritual Wisdom, or the Light."
Floid
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1/5/2011 2:50:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Ogan:
Neither of the above! The ONE LIFE or First Light (Fiat Lux) was radiated from the Unknown Root or Darkness, which is NOTHING to us – the Ultimate source of ALL. The ONE LIFE then emanated the whole of seven-fold manifested Nature and although also UNKNOWN, is named as the Supreme Deity. But it is beyond the capacity of human intellect to even conceive of what that might be.

Actually, the Unknown Root eminates from the Tree of Everything which grows in the Soil of the Not Knowable and grows based on photosynthesis of the One Half Light (which came before the First Light) which radiates from the Sun of the Mysterious which is floating in the Universe of Everything and Nothing.
Ogan
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1/5/2011 4:25:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/5/2011 2:50:35 PM, Floid wrote:
Ogan:
Neither of the above! The ONE LIFE or First Light (Fiat Lux) was radiated from the Unknown Root or Darkness, which is NOTHING to us – the Ultimate source of ALL. The ONE LIFE then emanated the whole of seven-fold manifested Nature and although also UNKNOWN, is named as the Supreme Deity. But it is beyond the capacity of human intellect to even conceive of what that might be.


Actually, the Unknown Root eminates from the Tree of Everything which grows in the Soil of the Not Knowable and grows based on photosynthesis of the One Half Light (which came before the First Light) which radiates from the Sun of the Mysterious which is floating in the Universe of Everything and Nothing.

The meaningless is always humorous. Thanks.
SuperRobotWars
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1/5/2011 4:33:17 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/5/2011 12:43:14 AM, Puck wrote:
At 1/5/2011 12:36:13 AM, jharry wrote:
Is this Spinoza's God a "person" like most Theists believe or is it more of a force that doesn't have capabilities like love or interest?

Deus, sive Natura - God is nature.

That is quite accurate . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Minister Of Trolling
: At 12/6/2011 2:21:41 PM, badger wrote:
: ugly people should beat beautiful people ugly. simple! you'd be killing two birds with the one stone... women like violent men and you're making yourself more attractive, relatively. i met a blonde dude who was prettier than me not so long ago. he's not so pretty now! ha!
:
: ...and well, he wasn't really prettier than me. he just had nice hair.
jharry
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1/7/2011 5:22:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/5/2011 12:25:47 PM, Ogan wrote:
jharry:
Is this Spinoza's God a "person" like most Theists believe or is it more of a force that doesn't have capabilities like love or interest?

Ogan:
Neither of the above!

So you know? I must be missing something.

Here is what I'm trying to figure out.

Do believe this life force or light or what ever created all this?

Do you say that you can't/don't know enough about it to answer my question?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Ogan
Posts: 407
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1/7/2011 7:42:41 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 5:22:24 PM, jharry wrote:
At 1/5/2011 12:25:47 PM, Ogan wrote:
jharry:
Is this Spinoza's God a "person" like most Theists believe or is it more of a force that doesn't have capabilities like love or interest?

Ogan:
Neither of the above!

So you know? I must be missing something.

Here is what I'm trying to figure out.

Do believe this life force or light or what ever created all this?

Do you say that you can't/don't know enough about it to answer my question?

Ogan:
You have asked a fundamental question. All I can give you are a few thoughts which are open to the arrows of the unready. 'Belief' is not the question – at least not for me now. And ‘creation' is an emotive term having far too many negative connotations. Rather, may I say that energy moving substance from within and without FORMED (not created) all things, and is common knowledge to some of us. But, just as with matter, this energy never moved ITSELF originally nor moves itself now. Yes, Energy moves our visible objective matter, which matter is in reality Force – or the magnetic fields surrounding sub-atomic particles, atoms, molecules, Planets, suns, solar systems, galaxies and super-galaxies ad infinitum. (check out my input in science/the auric egg)

The ACTIVE Mind we are presently aware of, including will, intellect etc., moves and manipulates the higher and lower Energies, which in turn move matter, and visa versa - for better or for worse. The POTENTIAL Soul, or the True Individual, oversees and instructs the Mind and Intellect – but only when that Mind and Intellect has proved itself to be READY and WORTHY. The Higher Spirit moves that Soul or True Individual into Forms at regular intervals for experience and learning purposes - and eventually Illuminates it with a Divine Light and transforms it in secret. (re: Illumination see: Society/Illuminati)

As below, so above. As in the Chaos Theory shown in the Mandelbrot Set, the whole of the Universe is formed and moved in a corresponding manner, but on an infinitely higher degree, all the way up Jacob's Ladder to the One Life, or the Supreme Deity – of which nothing can be said or known because of our puny minds and present limitations. I will say with confidence that a ‘personal' God is a mental construct by men trying to understand the Cause of Universal Formation, but this merely slays the Truth of the Holy Mystery by bringing it down HERE by Imaging it, speaking it, following it and preaching it with our limited understanding. So, if we were baboons, we would image ‘God' as a baboon on a kind of tree throne. Many different Images = many different factions = many different wars.

There is only one Good Path and True open to us ALL, and that is SELF IMPROVEMENT.
jharry
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1/7/2011 8:14:23 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/7/2011 7:42:41 PM, Ogan wrote:
At 1/7/2011 5:22:24 PM, jharry wrote:
At 1/5/2011 12:25:47 PM, Ogan wrote:
jharry:
Is this Spinoza's God a "person" like most Theists believe or is it more of a force that doesn't have capabilities like love or interest?

Ogan:
Neither of the above!

So you know? I must be missing something.

Here is what I'm trying to figure out.

Do believe this life force or light or what ever created all this?

Do you say that you can't/don't know enough about it to answer my question?

Ogan:
You have asked a fundamental question. All I can give you are a few thoughts which are open to the arrows of the unready. 'Belief' is not the question – at least not for me now. And ‘creation' is an emotive term having far too many negative connotations. Rather, may I say that energy moving substance from within and without FORMED (not created) all things, and is common knowledge to some of us. But, just as with matter, this energy never moved ITSELF originally nor moves itself now. Yes, Energy moves our visible objective matter, which matter is in reality Force – or the magnetic fields surrounding sub-atomic particles, atoms, molecules, Planets, suns, solar systems, galaxies and super-galaxies ad infinitum. (check out my input in science/the auric egg)

The ACTIVE Mind we are presently aware of, including will, intellect etc., moves and manipulates the higher and lower Energies, which in turn move matter, and visa versa - for better or for worse. The POTENTIAL Soul, or the True Individual, oversees and instructs the Mind and Intellect – but only when that Mind and Intellect has proved itself to be READY and WORTHY. The Higher Spirit moves that Soul or True Individual into Forms at regular intervals for experience and learning purposes - and eventually Illuminates it with a Divine Light and transforms it in secret. (re: Illumination see: Society/Illuminati)

As below, so above. As in the Chaos Theory shown in the Mandelbrot Set, the whole of the Universe is formed and moved in a corresponding manner, but on an infinitely higher degree, all the way up Jacob's Ladder to the One Life, or the Supreme Deity – of which nothing can be said or known because of our puny minds and present limitations. I will say with confidence that a ‘personal' God is a mental construct by men trying to understand the Cause of Universal Formation, but this merely slays the Truth of the Holy Mystery by bringing it down HERE by Imaging it, speaking it, following it and preaching it with our limited understanding. So, if we were baboons, we would image ‘God' as a baboon on a kind of tree throne. Many different Images = many different factions = many different wars.

There is only one Good Path and True open to us ALL, and that is SELF IMPROVEMENT.

Yeah, that was very deep. And way over my head. But thank you very much for discussing it with me.

I do agree that self improvement is the goal in this life. For yourself and others around you. But, unfortunately, the rest is Greek to me.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Floid
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1/8/2011 11:08:36 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
Actually, the POTENTIAL Soul moves the False Individual in an attempt to fight through the Mystical Ether that prevents our ACTIVE Minds from moving the high order energy into the potential levels of the lowe order energies. Thus, the False Individual is a roadblock between the Higher Spirit and the Unknowable energy it produces which provides the LIFE Force for the True Soul to perpetrate Reaction of Enrgy onto the True Individual at regular intervals of HYPERBOLIC experience and progress.

The Dark LIGHT therefore casts a shadow on the TRUE source of DIVINE Guidance in an attempt to transform the SECRET Inspiration of the ONE Ring to rule us all. Jacob climbed his ladder to get the ONE Ring for his INNER self in an attempt to supress the Mystical Ether and use his ACTIVE Mind to bring to light the DARKNESS of the UNBLINKING eye. But to release the LIFE Force of the TRUE Soul, the ONE Ring must be cast into the fires the NEVER burned to destroy the DARK matter that the Higher Spirit used for the TRUE life. Then and only then, can our TRUE Self know or FALSE Identity in an attempt to reconcile the grey scale and discover what the square root of negative one really is...

To decide whose theory is right, my ACTIVE Mind is peering through my FALSE Identity and proposing a coin flip that is dominated by the mandelbrot set of the CHAOS theory that created the universe. Then and only then will the streams be crossed, causing time as we know it to come to a complete stop and all matter to explode at the speed of light.

Heads I win, tails you lose. Lets flip for it.
Ren
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1/8/2011 2:14:54 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/3/2011 10:42:55 AM, mattrodstrom wrote:
All Einstein:

The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
-- Albert Einstein, in a letter responding to philosopher Eric Gutkind, who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt; quoted from James Randerson, "Childish Superstition: Einstein's Letter Makes View of Religion Relatively Clear: Scientist's Reply to Sell for up to £8,000, and Stoke Debate over His Beliefs" The Guardian, (13 May 2008)

I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
-- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press

It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere....

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

-- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press

now... whether he believed the universe could (as a whole), itself, be classified as "intelligent" may be up in the air... (though there's no reason to think it is so intelligent)

but he certainly didn't believe in a creator.

Those were not arguments against the existence of a creator. It was arguments against the current conception of a god, which is an omniscient being concerned with human affairs. He feels that it is a product of the human ego and whatever god may exists, does so irreverent of the endeavors of the human race.
Ogan
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1/8/2011 7:47:18 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/8/2011 11:08:36 AM, Floid wrote:
Actually, the POTENTIAL Soul moves the False Individual in an attempt to fight through the Mystical Ether that prevents our ACTIVE Minds from moving the high order energy into the potential levels of the lowe order energies. Thus, the False Individual is a roadblock between the Higher Spirit and the Unknowable energy it produces which provides the LIFE Force for the True Soul to perpetrate Reaction of Enrgy onto the True Individual at regular intervals of HYPERBOLIC experience and progress.

The Dark LIGHT therefore casts a shadow on the TRUE source of DIVINE Guidance in an attempt to transform the SECRET Inspiration of the ONE Ring to rule us all. Jacob climbed his ladder to get the ONE Ring for his INNER self in an attempt to supress the Mystical Ether and use his ACTIVE Mind to bring to light the DARKNESS of the UNBLINKING eye. But to release the LIFE Force of the TRUE Soul, the ONE Ring must be cast into the fires the NEVER burned to destroy the DARK matter that the Higher Spirit used for the TRUE life. Then and only then, can our TRUE Self know or FALSE Identity in an attempt to reconcile the grey scale and discover what the square root of negative one really is...

To decide whose theory is right, my ACTIVE Mind is peering through my FALSE Identity and proposing a coin flip that is dominated by the mandelbrot set of the CHAOS theory that created the universe. Then and only then will the streams be crossed, causing time as we know it to come to a complete stop and all matter to explode at the speed of light.

Heads I win, tails you lose. Lets flip for it.

Again, as before, no questions and no answers, just meaningless gibberish.
But, because it is better to be abused than ignored, I will answer you for the last time – without abuse - with the words of the illustrious Master Li Wang Ho who said these words over two thousand years ago in the Hall of the Yellow Rose:

"All men are Fools, and fools only have wisdom if they know they are fools. The rest are still fools – only more so: for they do not know it. On the other hand when a fool in his foolishness is happy it is cruel to make him wise before the appointed time. Better a happy Fool than a miserable Sage."

So, I suppose I will say nothing more and leave you happy.
Ogan
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1/8/2011 7:53:33 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 1/8/2011 2:14:54 PM, Ren wrote:

Those were not arguments against the existence of a creator. It was arguments against the current conception of a god, which is an omniscient being concerned with human affairs. He feels that it is a product of the human ego and whatever god may exists, does so irreverent of the endeavors of the human race.

Bravo! I had thought that any semblance of real Intelligence had vacated DDO until I read your simple statement – you have well and truly identified the precious stone among the shingle. That is indeed refreshing!