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Do racial/ethnic groups vary in intelligence?

Upiter
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8/29/2016 4:59:39 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
Complete question:
Do different racial/ethnic groups vary in natural intelligence levels?

This is a controversial topic but one that society should be more honest about. The overwhelming evidence points to this as being a grounded empirical fact.

Below is a list of some supporting information to show this is more-or-less the case:

1.
One of the only major mainstream books to dare cover the topic in modern times was written by a Harvard professor of Psychology Richard J. Hernstein and MIT Professor of Political Science Charles Murray called The Bell Curve. There they drew the unambiguous conclusion based on their interpretations of the data that:

"It seems highly likely to us that both genes and the environment have something to do with racial differences."

This book has then been criticized from different sources and, although one of the authors died shortly after from cancer, I'm sure their careers were or would have been embattled or endangered.

2.
The next piece of evidence comes from the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study. This is probably the most conclusive evidence in my mind out there.

In it, we find a study that compares the performance of white, black, asian/indian (unclear which groups specifically) and interracial black/white children on IQ tests over time. when adopted and raised by a white family.

When tested at a later age of around 17 we found that even though the scores of the adopted black children rose in the new environment they were still around 15 points behind the adopted white children, the same exact difference you would find in the general population.

The mean score for children with two biologically black children was 89.4 after being adopted by white parents; the national mean today is about 85. The mean score for children with two biologically white parents adopted by white parents were 105.6; the national mean is around 100. For the half black/white child, the mean was 98.5; the national mean today can be expected to be somewhere between 85 to 100 so let's say 93-95.

Scroll to page 7 for the full comparison:
http://frihetspartiet.net...

3.
Successful Harvard PhD dissertation on assessing IQs between young children of different races.

The Harvard study finds very small differences in IQ or general intelligence between 8-12 months old with whites outperforming black children at extremely small levels (i.e. .06 std deviations).

However, by age two and four the gap grows much larger:
"By age two (the latest available wave in ECLS), Whites on average outperform children of other races by .3-.4 standard deviations in the raw data, and by .2-.3 standard deviations with the inclusion of extensive controls. In the CPP data, by age four the raw test score gap between Whites and both Hispanics and Blacks is more than .7 standard deviations in the raw data. With controls included, the gap at age four is roughly .3 standard deviations."

It's clear the trend over time converges to the national trend as children age from 1 year old to 2 to 4 years to above go from very small differences, yet still visible, to the national mean of about 1 standard deviation difference between whites and blacks; again IQs of 100 vs 85 respectively nationally on average.

http://scholar.harvard.edu...

Conclusion:

Above was my conclusive evidence, and pretty much very difficult to honestly refute. There is no question in my mind that there are clear genetic differences between races in intelligence. There are very very persistent exact gaps that occur time and time again no matter which way they are measured, converging to about 1 standard deviation difference between the IQ of blacks and whites, visible from a very early age as early as before age 1 or age 2.

This in the long run has very strong implications, namely that racial economic and educational inequalities will always persist because of competition for the best scores, jobs, and performances in cognitively demanding areas. This also means that in terms of politics different racial or ethnic groups will seek to avoid competition while others will embrace it.
loveymore
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8/29/2016 6:01:56 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
The truth is paper-smart person, an adult, can be outperformed by a young children, no matter the race.
Upiter
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8/29/2016 7:27:34 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 6:01:56 AM, loveymore wrote:
The truth is paper-smart person, an adult, can be outperformed by a young children, no matter the race.

You are right but that is not relevant to the question.

Another study:

"THIRTY YEARS OF RESEARCH ON RACE DIFFERENCES IN COGNITIVE ABILITY"
"Our conclusion, that the Black"White IQ difference is partly heritable, accords with previous analytic reviews of this literature."
https://www1.udel.edu...
sam_white
Posts: 49
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8/29/2016 10:24:24 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:59:39 AM, Upiter wrote:
Complete question:
Do different racial/ethnic groups vary in natural intelligence levels?

This is a controversial topic but one that society should be more honest about. The overwhelming evidence points to this as being a grounded empirical fact.

Below is a list of some supporting information to show this is more-or-less the case:

1.
One of the only major mainstream books to dare cover the topic in modern times was written by a Harvard professor of Psychology Richard J. Hernstein and MIT Professor of Political Science Charles Murray called The Bell Curve. There they drew the unambiguous conclusion based on their interpretations of the data that:

"It seems highly likely to us that both genes and the environment have something to do with racial differences."

This book has then been criticized from different sources and, although one of the authors died shortly after from cancer, I'm sure their careers were or would have been embattled or endangered.

2.
The next piece of evidence comes from the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study. This is probably the most conclusive evidence in my mind out there.

In it, we find a study that compares the performance of white, black, asian/indian (unclear which groups specifically) and interracial black/white children on IQ tests over time. when adopted and raised by a white family.

When tested at a later age of around 17 we found that even though the scores of the adopted black children rose in the new environment they were still around 15 points behind the adopted white children, the same exact difference you would find in the general population.

The mean score for children with two biologically black children was 89.4 after being adopted by white parents; the national mean today is about 85. The mean score for children with two biologically white parents adopted by white parents were 105.6; the national mean is around 100. For the half black/white child, the mean was 98.5; the national mean today can be expected to be somewhere between 85 to 100 so let's say 93-95.

Scroll to page 7 for the full comparison:
http://frihetspartiet.net...

3.
Successful Harvard PhD dissertation on assessing IQs between young children of different races.

The Harvard study finds very small differences in IQ or general intelligence between 8-12 months old with whites outperforming black children at extremely small levels (i.e. .06 std deviations).

However, by age two and four the gap grows much larger:
"By age two (the latest available wave in ECLS), Whites on average outperform children of other races by .3-.4 standard deviations in the raw data, and by .2-.3 standard deviations with the inclusion of extensive controls. In the CPP data, by age four the raw test score gap between Whites and both Hispanics and Blacks is more than .7 standard deviations in the raw data. With controls included, the gap at age four is roughly .3 standard deviations."

It's clear the trend over time converges to the national trend as children age from 1 year old to 2 to 4 years to above go from very small differences, yet still visible, to the national mean of about 1 standard deviation difference between whites and blacks; again IQs of 100 vs 85 respectively nationally on average.

http://scholar.harvard.edu...



Conclusion:

Above was my conclusive evidence, and pretty much very difficult to honestly refute. There is no question in my mind that there are clear genetic differences between races in intelligence. There are very very persistent exact gaps that occur time and time again no matter which way they are measured, converging to about 1 standard deviation difference between the IQ of blacks and whites, visible from a very early age as early as before age 1 or age 2.

This in the long run has very strong implications, namely that racial economic and educational inequalities will always persist because of competition for the best scores, jobs, and performances in cognitively demanding areas. This also means that in terms of politics different racial or ethnic groups will seek to avoid competition while others will embrace it. : :

It all depends on what you think "intelligence" means. Some people have the gift of memorizing what they perceive with their created senses so when they're recalling from memory, other people who aren't gifted in that area are amazed by that gift of memorizing such things.

Some people get images and thoughts delivered into their minds and the gift to take those images and thoughts and draw them on paper, mold them into objects with various earthen materials or make music, paint pictures, etc. Those people who are not gifted in those areas might think these artists, architects, inventors, musicians, etc. are very intelligent.

Some people have the gift of speaking eloquently so they sound intelligent.

Some people have a knack for figuring out how to solve problems so they are thought to be intelligent.

Some people have gifts in many areas including being very studious in school and get good grades. Some of these people become teachers and professors. They are thought to be very intelligent.

If you have the gift to listen to the voice of God and obey his commands, you will learn where all intelligence comes from.
AlyceTheElectrician
Posts: 233
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8/29/2016 11:12:27 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:59:39 AM, Upiter wrote:
Complete question:
Do different racial/ethnic groups vary in natural intelligence levels?

This is a controversial topic but one that society should be more honest about. The overwhelming evidence points to this as being a grounded empirical fact.

Below is a list of some supporting information to show this is more-or-less the case:

1.
One of the only major mainstream books to dare cover the topic in modern times was written by a Harvard professor of Psychology Richard J. Hernstein and MIT Professor of Political Science Charles Murray called The Bell Curve. There they drew the unambiguous conclusion based on their interpretations of the data that:

"It seems highly likely to us that both genes and the environment have something to do with racial differences."

This book has then been criticized from different sources and, although one of the authors died shortly after from cancer, I'm sure their careers were or would have been embattled or endangered.

2.
The next piece of evidence comes from the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study. This is probably the most conclusive evidence in my mind out there.

In it, we find a study that compares the performance of white, black, asian/indian (unclear which groups specifically) and interracial black/white children on IQ tests over time. when adopted and raised by a white family.

When tested at a later age of around 17 we found that even though the scores of the adopted black children rose in the new environment they were still around 15 points behind the adopted white children, the same exact difference you would find in the general population.

The mean score for children with two biologically black children was 89.4 after being adopted by white parents; the national mean today is about 85. The mean score for children with two biologically white parents adopted by white parents were 105.6; the national mean is around 100. For the half black/white child, the mean was 98.5; the national mean today can be expected to be somewhere between 85 to 100 so let's say 93-95.

Scroll to page 7 for the full comparison:
http://frihetspartiet.net...

3.
Successful Harvard PhD dissertation on assessing IQs between young children of different races.

The Harvard study finds very small differences in IQ or general intelligence between 8-12 months old with whites outperforming black children at extremely small levels (i.e. .06 std deviations).

However, by age two and four the gap grows much larger:
"By age two (the latest available wave in ECLS), Whites on average outperform children of other races by .3-.4 standard deviations in the raw data, and by .2-.3 standard deviations with the inclusion of extensive controls. In the CPP data, by age four the raw test score gap between Whites and both Hispanics and Blacks is more than .7 standard deviations in the raw data. With controls included, the gap at age four is roughly .3 standard deviations."

It's clear the trend over time converges to the national trend as children age from 1 year old to 2 to 4 years to above go from very small differences, yet still visible, to the national mean of about 1 standard deviation difference between whites and blacks; again IQs of 100 vs 85 respectively nationally on average.

http://scholar.harvard.edu...



Conclusion:

Above was my conclusive evidence, and pretty much very difficult to honestly refute. There is no question in my mind that there are clear genetic differences between races in intelligence. There are very very persistent exact gaps that occur time and time again no matter which way they are measured, converging to about 1 standard deviation difference between the IQ of blacks and whites, visible from a very early age as early as before age 1 or age 2.

This in the long run has very strong implications, namely that racial economic and educational inequalities will always persist because of competition for the best scores, jobs, and performances in cognitively demanding areas. This also means that in terms of politics different racial or ethnic groups will seek to avoid competition while others will embrace it.

Sure, the evidence is probably pretty valid, but it's not an invalidation of other races ability to succeed or account for their motivation to compete and do well within their means. Motivated people figure out what they are good at, and find ways to capitalize on it. Intelligence alone does not contribute to motivation and certainly is not the sole key to success and upward mobility, plus cognizance is applied in all professions, therefore whether or not a race is more intelligent than another is quite irrelevant.

I personally think it's acceptable that intellectual levels differ between races because we all don't have to be equal in every aspect of being human to positively contribute to advancing a civilized society or company or whatever. Every race has something that they are better at than other races, and that's fine.
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Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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9/9/2016 11:07:37 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 8/29/2016 11:12:27 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:59:39 AM, Upiter wrote:
Complete question:
Do different racial/ethnic groups vary in natural intelligence levels?

This is a controversial topic but one that society should be more honest about. The overwhelming evidence points to this as being a grounded empirical fact.

Below is a list of some supporting information to show this is more-or-less the case:

1.
One of the only major mainstream books to dare cover the topic in modern times was written by a Harvard professor of Psychology Richard J. Hernstein and MIT Professor of Political Science Charles Murray called The Bell Curve. There they drew the unambiguous conclusion based on their interpretations of the data that:

"It seems highly likely to us that both genes and the environment have something to do with racial differences."

This book has then been criticized from different sources and, although one of the authors died shortly after from cancer, I'm sure their careers were or would have been embattled or endangered.

2.
The next piece of evidence comes from the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study. This is probably the most conclusive evidence in my mind out there.

In it, we find a study that compares the performance of white, black, asian/indian (unclear which groups specifically) and interracial black/white children on IQ tests over time. when adopted and raised by a white family.

When tested at a later age of around 17 we found that even though the scores of the adopted black children rose in the new environment they were still around 15 points behind the adopted white children, the same exact difference you would find in the general population.

The mean score for children with two biologically black children was 89.4 after being adopted by white parents; the national mean today is about 85. The mean score for children with two biologically white parents adopted by white parents were 105.6; the national mean is around 100. For the half black/white child, the mean was 98.5; the national mean today can be expected to be somewhere between 85 to 100 so let's say 93-95.

Scroll to page 7 for the full comparison:
http://frihetspartiet.net...

3.
Successful Harvard PhD dissertation on assessing IQs between young children of different races.

The Harvard study finds very small differences in IQ or general intelligence between 8-12 months old with whites outperforming black children at extremely small levels (i.e. .06 std deviations).

However, by age two and four the gap grows much larger:
"By age two (the latest available wave in ECLS), Whites on average outperform children of other races by .3-.4 standard deviations in the raw data, and by .2-.3 standard deviations with the inclusion of extensive controls. In the CPP data, by age four the raw test score gap between Whites and both Hispanics and Blacks is more than .7 standard deviations in the raw data. With controls included, the gap at age four is roughly .3 standard deviations."

It's clear the trend over time converges to the national trend as children age from 1 year old to 2 to 4 years to above go from very small differences, yet still visible, to the national mean of about 1 standard deviation difference between whites and blacks; again IQs of 100 vs 85 respectively nationally on average.

http://scholar.harvard.edu...



Conclusion:

Above was my conclusive evidence, and pretty much very difficult to honestly refute. There is no question in my mind that there are clear genetic differences between races in intelligence. There are very very persistent exact gaps that occur time and time again no matter which way they are measured, converging to about 1 standard deviation difference between the IQ of blacks and whites, visible from a very early age as early as before age 1 or age 2.

This in the long run has very strong implications, namely that racial economic and educational inequalities will always persist because of competition for the best scores, jobs, and performances in cognitively demanding areas. This also means that in terms of politics different racial or ethnic groups will seek to avoid competition while others will embrace it.

Sure, the evidence is probably pretty valid, but it's not an invalidation of other races ability to succeed or account for their motivation to compete and do well within their means. Motivated people figure out what they are good at, and find ways to capitalize on it. Intelligence alone does not contribute to motivation and certainly is not the sole key to success and upward mobility, plus cognizance is applied in all professions, therefore whether or not a race is more intelligent than another is quite irrelevant.

I personally think it's acceptable that intellectual levels differ between races because we all don't have to be equal in every aspect of being human to positively contribute to advancing a civilized society or company or whatever. Every race has something that they are better at than other races, and that's fine.

+1 Not to mention the supposed difference is insignicant
Meh!
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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9/9/2016 2:36:39 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:59:39 AM, Upiter wrote:
Complete question:
Do different racial/ethnic groups vary in natural intelligence levels?

This is a controversial topic but one that society should be more honest about. The overwhelming evidence points to this as being a grounded empirical fact.

Below is a list of some supporting information to show this is more-or-less the case:

1.
One of the only major mainstream books to dare cover the topic in modern times was written by a Harvard professor of Psychology Richard J. Hernstein and MIT Professor of Political Science Charles Murray called The Bell Curve. There they drew the unambiguous conclusion based on their interpretations of the data that:

"It seems highly likely to us that both genes and the environment have something to do with racial differences."

This book has then been criticized from different sources and, although one of the authors died shortly after from cancer, I'm sure their careers were or would have been embattled or endangered.

2.
The next piece of evidence comes from the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study. This is probably the most conclusive evidence in my mind out there.

In it, we find a study that compares the performance of white, black, asian/indian (unclear which groups specifically) and interracial black/white children on IQ tests over time. when adopted and raised by a white family.

When tested at a later age of around 17 we found that even though the scores of the adopted black children rose in the new environment they were still around 15 points behind the adopted white children, the same exact difference you would find in the general population.

The mean score for children with two biologically black children was 89.4 after being adopted by white parents; the national mean today is about 85. The mean score for children with two biologically white parents adopted by white parents were 105.6; the national mean is around 100. For the half black/white child, the mean was 98.5; the national mean today can be expected to be somewhere between 85 to 100 so let's say 93-95.

Scroll to page 7 for the full comparison:
http://frihetspartiet.net...

3.
Successful Harvard PhD dissertation on assessing IQs between young children of different races.

The Harvard study finds very small differences in IQ or general intelligence between 8-12 months old with whites outperforming black children at extremely small levels (i.e. .06 std deviations).

However, by age two and four the gap grows much larger:
"By age two (the latest available wave in ECLS), Whites on average outperform children of other races by .3-.4 standard deviations in the raw data, and by .2-.3 standard deviations with the inclusion of extensive controls. In the CPP data, by age four the raw test score gap between Whites and both Hispanics and Blacks is more than .7 standard deviations in the raw data. With controls included, the gap at age four is roughly .3 standard deviations."

It's clear the trend over time converges to the national trend as children age from 1 year old to 2 to 4 years to above go from very small differences, yet still visible, to the national mean of about 1 standard deviation difference between whites and blacks; again IQs of 100 vs 85 respectively nationally on average.

http://scholar.harvard.edu...



Conclusion:

Above was my conclusive evidence, and pretty much very difficult to honestly refute. There is no question in my mind that there are clear genetic differences between races in intelligence. There are very very persistent exact gaps that occur time and time again no matter which way they are measured, converging to about 1 standard deviation difference between the IQ of blacks and whites, visible from a very early age as early as before age 1 or age 2.

This in the long run has very strong implications, namely that racial economic and educational inequalities will always persist because of competition for the best scores, jobs, and performances in cognitively demanding areas. This also means that in terms of politics different racial or ethnic groups will seek to avoid competition while others will embrace it.

I've always felt these conclusions leave factors out such as nutrition, quality of education, cultural practices, etc. It is my opinion individuals generally start out with the same mental potential and the specific environment and life experiences help realize or diminish this potential.
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Quadrunner
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9/13/2016 9:41:23 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:59:39 AM, Upiter wrote:
Complete question:
Do different racial/ethnic groups vary in natural intelligence levels?

This is a controversial topic but one that society should be more honest about. The overwhelming evidence points to this as being a grounded empirical fact.

Below is a list of some supporting information to show this is more-or-less the case:

1.
One of the only major mainstream books to dare cover the topic in modern times was written by a Harvard professor of Psychology Richard J. Hernstein and MIT Professor of Political Science Charles Murray called The Bell Curve. There they drew the unambiguous conclusion based on their interpretations of the data that:

"It seems highly likely to us that both genes and the environment have something to do with racial differences."

This book has then been criticized from different sources and, although one of the authors died shortly after from cancer, I'm sure their careers were or would have been embattled or endangered.

2.
The next piece of evidence comes from the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study. This is probably the most conclusive evidence in my mind out there.

In it, we find a study that compares the performance of white, black, asian/indian (unclear which groups specifically) and interracial black/white children on IQ tests over time. when adopted and raised by a white family.

When tested at a later age of around 17 we found that even though the scores of the adopted black children rose in the new environment they were still around 15 points behind the adopted white children, the same exact difference you would find in the general population.

The mean score for children with two biologically black children was 89.4 after being adopted by white parents; the national mean today is about 85. The mean score for children with two biologically white parents adopted by white parents were 105.6; the national mean is around 100. For the half black/white child, the mean was 98.5; the national mean today can be expected to be somewhere between 85 to 100 so let's say 93-95.

Scroll to page 7 for the full comparison:
http://frihetspartiet.net...

3.
Successful Harvard PhD dissertation on assessing IQs between young children of different races.

The Harvard study finds very small differences in IQ or general intelligence between 8-12 months old with whites outperforming black children at extremely small levels (i.e. .06 std deviations).

However, by age two and four the gap grows much larger:
"By age two (the latest available wave in ECLS), Whites on average outperform children of other races by .3-.4 standard deviations in the raw data, and by .2-.3 standard deviations with the inclusion of extensive controls. In the CPP data, by age four the raw test score gap between Whites and both Hispanics and Blacks is more than .7 standard deviations in the raw data. With controls included, the gap at age four is roughly .3 standard deviations."

It's clear the trend over time converges to the national trend as children age from 1 year old to 2 to 4 years to above go from very small differences, yet still visible, to the national mean of about 1 standard deviation difference between whites and blacks; again IQs of 100 vs 85 respectively nationally on average.

http://scholar.harvard.edu...



Conclusion:

Above was my conclusive evidence, and pretty much very difficult to honestly refute. There is no question in my mind that there are clear genetic differences between races in intelligence. There are very very persistent exact gaps that occur time and time again no matter which way they are measured, converging to about 1 standard deviation difference between the IQ of blacks and whites, visible from a very early age as early as before age 1 or age 2.

This in the long run has very strong implications, namely that racial economic and educational inequalities will always persist because of competition for the best scores, jobs, and performances in cognitively demanding areas. This also means that in terms of politics different racial or ethnic groups will seek to avoid competition while others will embrace it.

First of all...Awesome post.

Secondly, if we are merely talking about this in terms of averages....Its useless. If we are talking about it in terms of the ability of individuals to make their way in the world based on intelligence....its useless.

As has been pointed out before me, some people are intelligent, and in different ways. Some people are dull in certain areas and great in others. Some people can do everything. Some people are a bag of bricks.

Since intelligence is the parameter we are focusing on, then yes, percentages of certain genetic pools will eventually over time be pooled with certain probability in relation to their society. The race itself however, would not be the cause of this, as you are merely measuring averages. The individuals within that race vary great enough that not all of them would be pushed in with the rest, so long as we don't judge their intelligence by race, and instead focus on individual performance.

Basically in a nutshell, as I will likely continue to say. Its a waste of time to think about racial inequality . If one race happens to prove not to be "statistically equal" but everyone is treated equally, then the "statistically rare" smart people of that race will still have equal opportunity, so long as society allows it, and the dummies will be just as dumb as any other race, which to me is more fascinating to think about, the long term effect of intelligence differentiation leading to indefinite wealth gaps, which I assume you are proposing could be a significant and incurable drive for racial inequality in America even in the absence of racism. Right? In such a scenario the only cure for racial inequality would be the extinction of the term.

You can illuminate it with science, but you can't fix stupid.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Hiu
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9/13/2016 10:09:48 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:59:39 AM, Upiter wrote:
Complete question:
Do different racial/ethnic groups vary in natural intelligence levels?

This is a controversial topic but one that society should be more honest about. The overwhelming evidence points to this as being a grounded empirical fact.

Below is a list of some supporting information to show this is more-or-less the case:

1.
One of the only major mainstream books to dare cover the topic in modern times was written by a Harvard professor of Psychology Richard J. Hernstein and MIT Professor of Political Science Charles Murray called The Bell Curve. There they drew the unambiguous conclusion based on their interpretations of the data that:

"It seems highly likely to us that both genes and the environment have something to do with racial differences."

This book has then been criticized from different sources and, although one of the authors died shortly after from cancer, I'm sure their careers were or would have been embattled or endangered.

2.
The next piece of evidence comes from the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study. This is probably the most conclusive evidence in my mind out there.

In it, we find a study that compares the performance of white, black, asian/indian (unclear which groups specifically) and interracial black/white children on IQ tests over time. when adopted and raised by a white family.

When tested at a later age of around 17 we found that even though the scores of the adopted black children rose in the new environment they were still around 15 points behind the adopted white children, the same exact difference you would find in the general population.

The mean score for children with two biologically black children was 89.4 after being adopted by white parents; the national mean today is about 85. The mean score for children with two biologically white parents adopted by white parents were 105.6; the national mean is around 100. For the half black/white child, the mean was 98.5; the national mean today can be expected to be somewhere between 85 to 100 so let's say 93-95.

Scroll to page 7 for the full comparison:
http://frihetspartiet.net...

3.
Successful Harvard PhD dissertation on assessing IQs between young children of different races.

The Harvard study finds very small differences in IQ or general intelligence between 8-12 months old with whites outperforming black children at extremely small levels (i.e. .06 std deviations).

However, by age two and four the gap grows much larger:
"By age two (the latest available wave in ECLS), Whites on average outperform children of other races by .3-.4 standard deviations in the raw data, and by .2-.3 standard deviations with the inclusion of extensive controls. In the CPP data, by age four the raw test score gap between Whites and both Hispanics and Blacks is more than .7 standard deviations in the raw data. With controls included, the gap at age four is roughly .3 standard deviations."

It's clear the trend over time converges to the national trend as children age from 1 year old to 2 to 4 years to above go from very small differences, yet still visible, to the national mean of about 1 standard deviation difference between whites and blacks; again IQs of 100 vs 85 respectively nationally on average.

http://scholar.harvard.edu...



Conclusion:

Above was my conclusive evidence, and pretty much very difficult to honestly refute. There is no question in my mind that there are clear genetic differences between races in intelligence. There are very very persistent exact gaps that occur time and time again no matter which way they are measured, converging to about 1 standard deviation difference between the IQ of blacks and whites, visible from a very early age as early as before age 1 or age 2.

This in the long run has very strong implications, namely that racial economic and educational inequalities will always persist because of competition for the best scores, jobs, and performances in cognitively demanding areas. This also means that in terms of politics different racial or ethnic groups will seek to avoid competition while others will embrace it.

No. Although I believe "intelligence" varies based on environmental and some genetic factors among individuals. As a graduate of psychology, we are well aware of skewed research studies and often times many psychologists on this matter concluded that the idea of intelligence is subjective considering there are many forms of intelligence. Having a high IQ does not make your ability all-encompassing because you may be unintelligent in other areas that require cognitive skill such as playing a piano or a violin. Not only does it take intelligence to read musical notes but skills to play the right tone in conjunction to a particular song.

I concede according to some research studies, there is a strong correlation that children of highly educated parents may also retain some genetic markers that may make them intelligent. However there are environmental factors many researchers have considered as well that may factor in kids doing well, it all just depends.

I find research studies like these touchy and often times they tend to reflect they idea of superiority/inferiority complexes between whites and blacks. As it was said in Wikipedia:

"Race in studies of human intelligence is almost always determined using self-reports, rather than based on analyses of the genetic characteristics of the tested individuals."
Hiu
Posts: 980
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9/13/2016 10:12:43 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/9/2016 2:36:39 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:59:39 AM, Upiter wrote:
Complete question:
Do different racial/ethnic groups vary in natural intelligence levels?

This is a controversial topic but one that society should be more honest about. The overwhelming evidence points to this as being a grounded empirical fact.

Below is a list of some supporting information to show this is more-or-less the case:

1.
One of the only major mainstream books to dare cover the topic in modern times was written by a Harvard professor of Psychology Richard J. Hernstein and MIT Professor of Political Science Charles Murray called The Bell Curve. There they drew the unambiguous conclusion based on their interpretations of the data that:

"It seems highly likely to us that both genes and the environment have something to do with racial differences."

This book has then been criticized from different sources and, although one of the authors died shortly after from cancer, I'm sure their careers were or would have been embattled or endangered.

2.
The next piece of evidence comes from the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study. This is probably the most conclusive evidence in my mind out there.

In it, we find a study that compares the performance of white, black, asian/indian (unclear which groups specifically) and interracial black/white children on IQ tests over time. when adopted and raised by a white family.

When tested at a later age of around 17 we found that even though the scores of the adopted black children rose in the new environment they were still around 15 points behind the adopted white children, the same exact difference you would find in the general population.

The mean score for children with two biologically black children was 89.4 after being adopted by white parents; the national mean today is about 85. The mean score for children with two biologically white parents adopted by white parents were 105.6; the national mean is around 100. For the half black/white child, the mean was 98.5; the national mean today can be expected to be somewhere between 85 to 100 so let's say 93-95.

Scroll to page 7 for the full comparison:
http://frihetspartiet.net...

3.
Successful Harvard PhD dissertation on assessing IQs between young children of different races.

The Harvard study finds very small differences in IQ or general intelligence between 8-12 months old with whites outperforming black children at extremely small levels (i.e. .06 std deviations).

However, by age two and four the gap grows much larger:
"By age two (the latest available wave in ECLS), Whites on average outperform children of other races by .3-.4 standard deviations in the raw data, and by .2-.3 standard deviations with the inclusion of extensive controls. In the CPP data, by age four the raw test score gap between Whites and both Hispanics and Blacks is more than .7 standard deviations in the raw data. With controls included, the gap at age four is roughly .3 standard deviations."

It's clear the trend over time converges to the national trend as children age from 1 year old to 2 to 4 years to above go from very small differences, yet still visible, to the national mean of about 1 standard deviation difference between whites and blacks; again IQs of 100 vs 85 respectively nationally on average.

http://scholar.harvard.edu...



Conclusion:

Above was my conclusive evidence, and pretty much very difficult to honestly refute. There is no question in my mind that there are clear genetic differences between races in intelligence. There are very very persistent exact gaps that occur time and time again no matter which way they are measured, converging to about 1 standard deviation difference between the IQ of blacks and whites, visible from a very early age as early as before age 1 or age 2.

This in the long run has very strong implications, namely that racial economic and educational inequalities will always persist because of competition for the best scores, jobs, and performances in cognitively demanding areas. This also means that in terms of politics different racial or ethnic groups will seek to avoid competition while others will embrace it.

I've always felt these conclusions leave factors out such as nutrition, quality of education, cultural practices, etc. It is my opinion individuals generally start out with the same mental potential and the specific environment and life experiences help realize or diminish this potential.

Just commenting on the last portion of your post I disagree we all do not start out with the same mental potential unless you are leaving out genetic disabilities not to mention socio-economic factors especially people in impoverished communities who do not have resources to realize their intellectual potential.
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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9/13/2016 11:58:05 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/13/2016 10:12:43 PM, Hiu wrote:
At 9/9/2016 2:36:39 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:59:39 AM, Upiter wrote:
Complete question:
Do different racial/ethnic groups vary in natural intelligence levels?

This is a controversial topic but one that society should be more honest about. The overwhelming evidence points to this as being a grounded empirical fact.

Below is a list of some supporting information to show this is more-or-less the case:

1.
One of the only major mainstream books to dare cover the topic in modern times was written by a Harvard professor of Psychology Richard J. Hernstein and MIT Professor of Political Science Charles Murray called The Bell Curve. There they drew the unambiguous conclusion based on their interpretations of the data that:

"It seems highly likely to us that both genes and the environment have something to do with racial differences."

This book has then been criticized from different sources and, although one of the authors died shortly after from cancer, I'm sure their careers were or would have been embattled or endangered.

2.
The next piece of evidence comes from the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study. This is probably the most conclusive evidence in my mind out there.

In it, we find a study that compares the performance of white, black, asian/indian (unclear which groups specifically) and interracial black/white children on IQ tests over time. when adopted and raised by a white family.

When tested at a later age of around 17 we found that even though the scores of the adopted black children rose in the new environment they were still around 15 points behind the adopted white children, the same exact difference you would find in the general population.

The mean score for children with two biologically black children was 89.4 after being adopted by white parents; the national mean today is about 85. The mean score for children with two biologically white parents adopted by white parents were 105.6; the national mean is around 100. For the half black/white child, the mean was 98.5; the national mean today can be expected to be somewhere between 85 to 100 so let's say 93-95.

Scroll to page 7 for the full comparison:
http://frihetspartiet.net...

3.
Successful Harvard PhD dissertation on assessing IQs between young children of different races.

The Harvard study finds very small differences in IQ or general intelligence between 8-12 months old with whites outperforming black children at extremely small levels (i.e. .06 std deviations).

However, by age two and four the gap grows much larger:
"By age two (the latest available wave in ECLS), Whites on average outperform children of other races by .3-.4 standard deviations in the raw data, and by .2-.3 standard deviations with the inclusion of extensive controls. In the CPP data, by age four the raw test score gap between Whites and both Hispanics and Blacks is more than .7 standard deviations in the raw data. With controls included, the gap at age four is roughly .3 standard deviations."

It's clear the trend over time converges to the national trend as children age from 1 year old to 2 to 4 years to above go from very small differences, yet still visible, to the national mean of about 1 standard deviation difference between whites and blacks; again IQs of 100 vs 85 respectively nationally on average.

http://scholar.harvard.edu...



Conclusion:

Above was my conclusive evidence, and pretty much very difficult to honestly refute. There is no question in my mind that there are clear genetic differences between races in intelligence. There are very very persistent exact gaps that occur time and time again no matter which way they are measured, converging to about 1 standard deviation difference between the IQ of blacks and whites, visible from a very early age as early as before age 1 or age 2.

This in the long run has very strong implications, namely that racial economic and educational inequalities will always persist because of competition for the best scores, jobs, and performances in cognitively demanding areas. This also means that in terms of politics different racial or ethnic groups will seek to avoid competition while others will embrace it.

I've always felt these conclusions leave factors out such as nutrition, quality of education, cultural practices, etc. It is my opinion individuals generally start out with the same mental potential and the specific environment and life experiences help realize or diminish this potential.

Just commenting on the last portion of your post I disagree we all do not start out with the same mental potential unless you are leaving out genetic disabilities not to mention socio-economic factors especially people in impoverished communities who do not have resources to realize their intellectual potential.

Yes, I meant, in general, we all have the same potential from birth and environment (nutrition, education, and yes, socioeconomic factors, etc.) plays a role in whether it is realized.
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
Kyleconn
Posts: 15
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9/14/2016 12:31:48 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
I may sound racist but YES. Intelligence varies with different races. If not, we wouldn't have first world countries and third world countries. We all would be equally rich or equally poor.
Look at the technology and graphics. It's advanced in some countries like Japan and USA. Why?
Why are Asians considered math genius?
Hiu
Posts: 980
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9/14/2016 11:37:55 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/13/2016 11:58:05 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 9/13/2016 10:12:43 PM, Hiu wrote:
At 9/9/2016 2:36:39 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:59:39 AM, Upiter wrote:
Complete question:
Do different racial/ethnic groups vary in natural intelligence levels?

This is a controversial topic but one that society should be more honest about. The overwhelming evidence points to this as being a grounded empirical fact.

Below is a list of some supporting information to show this is more-or-less the case:

1.
One of the only major mainstream books to dare cover the topic in modern times was written by a Harvard professor of Psychology Richard J. Hernstein and MIT Professor of Political Science Charles Murray called The Bell Curve. There they drew the unambiguous conclusion based on their interpretations of the data that:

"It seems highly likely to us that both genes and the environment have something to do with racial differences."

This book has then been criticized from different sources and, although one of the authors died shortly after from cancer, I'm sure their careers were or would have been embattled or endangered.

2.
The next piece of evidence comes from the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study. This is probably the most conclusive evidence in my mind out there.

In it, we find a study that compares the performance of white, black, asian/indian (unclear which groups specifically) and interracial black/white children on IQ tests over time. when adopted and raised by a white family.

When tested at a later age of around 17 we found that even though the scores of the adopted black children rose in the new environment they were still around 15 points behind the adopted white children, the same exact difference you would find in the general population.

The mean score for children with two biologically black children was 89.4 after being adopted by white parents; the national mean today is about 85. The mean score for children with two biologically white parents adopted by white parents were 105.6; the national mean is around 100. For the half black/white child, the mean was 98.5; the national mean today can be expected to be somewhere between 85 to 100 so let's say 93-95.

Scroll to page 7 for the full comparison:
http://frihetspartiet.net...

3.
Successful Harvard PhD dissertation on assessing IQs between young children of different races.

The Harvard study finds very small differences in IQ or general intelligence between 8-12 months old with whites outperforming black children at extremely small levels (i.e. .06 std deviations).

However, by age two and four the gap grows much larger:
"By age two (the latest available wave in ECLS), Whites on average outperform children of other races by .3-.4 standard deviations in the raw data, and by .2-.3 standard deviations with the inclusion of extensive controls. In the CPP data, by age four the raw test score gap between Whites and both Hispanics and Blacks is more than .7 standard deviations in the raw data. With controls included, the gap at age four is roughly .3 standard deviations."

It's clear the trend over time converges to the national trend as children age from 1 year old to 2 to 4 years to above go from very small differences, yet still visible, to the national mean of about 1 standard deviation difference between whites and blacks; again IQs of 100 vs 85 respectively nationally on average.

http://scholar.harvard.edu...



Conclusion:

Above was my conclusive evidence, and pretty much very difficult to honestly refute. There is no question in my mind that there are clear genetic differences between races in intelligence. There are very very persistent exact gaps that occur time and time again no matter which way they are measured, converging to about 1 standard deviation difference between the IQ of blacks and whites, visible from a very early age as early as before age 1 or age 2.

This in the long run has very strong implications, namely that racial economic and educational inequalities will always persist because of competition for the best scores, jobs, and performances in cognitively demanding areas. This also means that in terms of politics different racial or ethnic groups will seek to avoid competition while others will embrace it.

I've always felt these conclusions leave factors out such as nutrition, quality of education, cultural practices, etc. It is my opinion individuals generally start out with the same mental potential and the specific environment and life experiences help realize or diminish this potential.

Just commenting on the last portion of your post I disagree we all do not start out with the same mental potential unless you are leaving out genetic disabilities not to mention socio-economic factors especially people in impoverished communities who do not have resources to realize their intellectual potential.

Yes, I meant, in general, we all have the same potential from birth and environment (nutrition, education, and yes, socioeconomic factors, etc.) plays a role in whether it is realized.

But again, I disagree we all do not have the same mental potential considering there are children who are born with mental disabilities (Zika virus for instance). I'm giving you a hard time because of the syntax of your message....

Just jerking your chain you know...
Skepticalone
Posts: 6,095
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9/15/2016 4:51:58 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/14/2016 11:37:55 PM, Hiu wrote:
At 9/13/2016 11:58:05 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 9/13/2016 10:12:43 PM, Hiu wrote:
At 9/9/2016 2:36:39 PM, Skepticalone wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:59:39 AM, Upiter wrote:
Complete question:
Do different racial/ethnic groups vary in natural intelligence levels?

This is a controversial topic but one that society should be more honest about. The overwhelming evidence points to this as being a grounded empirical fact.

Below is a list of some supporting information to show this is more-or-less the case:

1.
One of the only major mainstream books to dare cover the topic in modern times was written by a Harvard professor of Psychology Richard J. Hernstein and MIT Professor of Political Science Charles Murray called The Bell Curve. There they drew the unambiguous conclusion based on their interpretations of the data that:

"It seems highly likely to us that both genes and the environment have something to do with racial differences."

This book has then been criticized from different sources and, although one of the authors died shortly after from cancer, I'm sure their careers were or would have been embattled or endangered.

2.
The next piece of evidence comes from the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study. This is probably the most conclusive evidence in my mind out there.

In it, we find a study that compares the performance of white, black, asian/indian (unclear which groups specifically) and interracial black/white children on IQ tests over time. when adopted and raised by a white family.

When tested at a later age of around 17 we found that even though the scores of the adopted black children rose in the new environment they were still around 15 points behind the adopted white children, the same exact difference you would find in the general population.

The mean score for children with two biologically black children was 89.4 after being adopted by white parents; the national mean today is about 85. The mean score for children with two biologically white parents adopted by white parents were 105.6; the national mean is around 100. For the half black/white child, the mean was 98.5; the national mean today can be expected to be somewhere between 85 to 100 so let's say 93-95.

Scroll to page 7 for the full comparison:
http://frihetspartiet.net...

3.
Successful Harvard PhD dissertation on assessing IQs between young children of different races.

The Harvard study finds very small differences in IQ or general intelligence between 8-12 months old with whites outperforming black children at extremely small levels (i.e. .06 std deviations).

However, by age two and four the gap grows much larger:
"By age two (the latest available wave in ECLS), Whites on average outperform children of other races by .3-.4 standard deviations in the raw data, and by .2-.3 standard deviations with the inclusion of extensive controls. In the CPP data, by age four the raw test score gap between Whites and both Hispanics and Blacks is more than .7 standard deviations in the raw data. With controls included, the gap at age four is roughly .3 standard deviations."

It's clear the trend over time converges to the national trend as children age from 1 year old to 2 to 4 years to above go from very small differences, yet still visible, to the national mean of about 1 standard deviation difference between whites and blacks; again IQs of 100 vs 85 respectively nationally on average.

http://scholar.harvard.edu...



Conclusion:

Above was my conclusive evidence, and pretty much very difficult to honestly refute. There is no question in my mind that there are clear genetic differences between races in intelligence. There are very very persistent exact gaps that occur time and time again no matter which way they are measured, converging to about 1 standard deviation difference between the IQ of blacks and whites, visible from a very early age as early as before age 1 or age 2.

This in the long run has very strong implications, namely that racial economic and educational inequalities will always persist because of competition for the best scores, jobs, and performances in cognitively demanding areas. This also means that in terms of politics different racial or ethnic groups will seek to avoid competition while others will embrace it.

I've always felt these conclusions leave factors out such as nutrition, quality of education, cultural practices, etc. It is my opinion individuals generally start out with the same mental potential and the specific environment and life experiences help realize or diminish this potential.

Just commenting on the last portion of your post I disagree we all do not start out with the same mental potential unless you are leaving out genetic disabilities not to mention socio-economic factors especially people in impoverished communities who do not have resources to realize their intellectual potential.

Yes, I meant, in general, we all have the same potential from birth and environment (nutrition, education, and yes, socioeconomic factors, etc.) plays a role in whether it is realized.

But again, I disagree we all do not have the same mental potential considering there are children who are born with mental disabilities (Zika virus for instance). I'm giving you a hard time because of the syntax of your message....

Just jerking your chain you know...

I qualified my statement when I said "in general". Semantics aside, it seems we agree. ;-)
This thread is like eavesdropping on a conversation in a mental asylum. - Bulproof

You can call your invisible friends whatever you like. - Desmac

What the hell kind of coked up sideshow has this thread turned into. - Casten
keithprosser
Posts: 1,965
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9/15/2016 7:07:10 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
What is the significance of a difference in the average IQ of an ethnic group when there is far more difference withina group than between groups? Even if the mean IQ of blacks is below that of whites a lot of blacks are going to be smarter than a lot of whites. That especially applies to those whites who draw attention to differences in the mean!
Quadrunner
Posts: 1,083
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9/16/2016 5:57:53 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/15/2016 7:07:10 AM, keithprosser wrote:
What is the significance of a difference in the average IQ of an ethnic group when there is far more difference withina group than between groups? Even if the mean IQ of blacks is below that of whites a lot of blacks are going to be smarter than a lot of whites. That especially applies to those whites who draw attention to differences in the mean!

Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking
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Archaholic
Posts: 251
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9/19/2016 1:57:14 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/14/2016 12:31:48 PM, Kyleconn wrote:
I may sound racist but YES. Intelligence varies with different races. If not, we wouldn't have first world countries and third world countries. We all would be equally rich or equally poor.
Look at the technology and graphics. It's advanced in some countries like Japan and USA. Why?
Why are Asians considered math genius?

Not all Asians are math Genius. I mean it is not related just to genes, but to environment and culture. Japan culture is sinonym of discipline, as well as German. Look at the italian or spanish culture, it is diametrally opposite, and their ex-colonies inherit this culture, which explains very well the situation of South America. And they are white, as well as german or british.
Smithereens
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9/19/2016 3:33:37 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
There are a lot of confounders at work here, so your conclusion doesn't actually follow.

Firstly, we know that intelligence is strongly linked to socioeconomic status. Poor people are not as smart as rich people. Currently, ethnic groups differ in wealth, so it's expected that some show higher intelligence than others. If you make caucasians the poorest people on earth, and subsaharan africans the richest, you would observe a reversal in intelligence levels from the two groups.

Secondly, intelligence testing in the way you're using it was devised and applied by a single ethnic group according to that groups view of intelligence. In many parts of the world, a person who can't survive on their own for any length of time is a complete idiot. Yet our culture might label them a genius. With each culture having different definitions or views of intelligence and mental competence, it's only natural that our culture labels us as the smartest by our standards.
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slo1
Posts: 4,324
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9/20/2016 12:19:00 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 8/29/2016 4:59:39 AM, Upiter wrote:
Complete question:
Do different racial/ethnic groups vary in natural intelligence levels?

This is a controversial topic but one that society should be more honest about. The overwhelming evidence points to this as being a grounded empirical fact.

<
Why does it matter? Imagine on average after successfully eliminating environmental factors that the mean IQ of African Americans is 10 points lower than whites and 15 below Asians:

1. There are many individuals who would completely misinterpret the results and would consciously and/or unconsciously discriminate against blacks in hiring and firing or other aspects not involving IQ.

2. IQ tests are not used in hiring because there is no connection to job performance and integrity.

I could go on and on.

The only useful feature of studying racial IQ differences is to uncover the genetic portion of intelligence. All other angles is just an weakly veiled attempt to give validity to racial superiority.
Axon85
Posts: 137
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9/21/2016 5:37:34 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/20/2016 12:19:00 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:59:39 AM, Upiter wrote:
Complete question:
Do different racial/ethnic groups vary in natural intelligence levels?

This is a controversial topic but one that society should be more honest about. The overwhelming evidence points to this as being a grounded empirical fact.

<
Why does it matter? Imagine on average after successfully eliminating environmental factors that the mean IQ of African Americans is 10 points lower than whites and 15 below Asians:

1. There are many individuals who would completely misinterpret the results and would consciously and/or unconsciously discriminate against blacks in hiring and firing or other aspects not involving IQ.

2. IQ tests are not used in hiring because there is no connection to job performance and integrity.

I could go on and on.

The only useful feature of studying racial IQ differences is to uncover the genetic portion of intelligence. All other angles is just an weakly veiled attempt to give validity to racial superiority.

I don't think it is wise to base our ethical treatment of fellow humans on the assumption that everyone (individuals or races) is identical. What happens if that assumption is false?

I am open to persuasion on whether or not genetics plays a significant & deterministic role in establishing between-race differences as they relate to IQ or other measures of aptitude. Maybe it does, or maybe genetic effects are negligible and most variation is due to environment. However, even if the latter is true today, it may not hold true in the future. We know that populations can diverge under different selective pressures.

Regardless of where the truth lies, I have a problem with embracing a moral framework that forces us to withhold information, abandon certain lines of research or in any way act dishonestly towards reality.
slo1
Posts: 4,324
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9/21/2016 6:11:04 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/21/2016 5:37:34 PM, Axon85 wrote:
At 9/20/2016 12:19:00 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 8/29/2016 4:59:39 AM, Upiter wrote:
Complete question:
Do different racial/ethnic groups vary in natural intelligence levels?

This is a controversial topic but one that society should be more honest about. The overwhelming evidence points to this as being a grounded empirical fact.

<
Why does it matter? Imagine on average after successfully eliminating environmental factors that the mean IQ of African Americans is 10 points lower than whites and 15 below Asians:

1. There are many individuals who would completely misinterpret the results and would consciously and/or unconsciously discriminate against blacks in hiring and firing or other aspects not involving IQ.

2. IQ tests are not used in hiring because there is no connection to job performance and integrity.

I could go on and on.

The only useful feature of studying racial IQ differences is to uncover the genetic portion of intelligence. All other angles is just an weakly veiled attempt to give validity to racial superiority.

I don't think it is wise to base our ethical treatment of fellow humans on the assumption that everyone (individuals or races) is identical. What happens if that assumption is false?

I am open to persuasion on whether or not genetics plays a significant & deterministic role in establishing between-race differences as they relate to IQ or other measures of aptitude. Maybe it does, or maybe genetic effects are negligible and most variation is due to environment. However, even if the latter is true today, it may not hold true in the future. We know that populations can diverge under different selective pressures.

Regardless of where the truth lies, I have a problem with embracing a moral framework that forces us to withhold information, abandon certain lines of research or in any way act dishonestly towards reality.

I would never propose that it not be studied or finding suppressed. I am suggesting that has very limited use.

It would not be unreasonable to assume that whatever genetic components to intelligence will still be applicable to explain intraracial varriances to intelligence as well as variance between races.

In fact my assumption that studying genetic differences between racial groups could help uncover genetic causes is probably wrong. One would assume that a bell curve of Black IQ is just shifted slightly left versus White, meaning there is just as as amount of varriances of IQ's in both populations. As a result many Blacks would have higher IQ's than many whites.

It would probably be more useful to compare genetics with low IQ to those with medium and high IQ's to uncover genetic variable.

In short any genetic variable uncovered is inheritable to any person of any race. Many people don't think of it in those terms. That is why looking at IQ in racial terms is so dangerous. People stereotype and next thing one knows someone hiring for a position gives preference to whites because science tells us that on average whites have a higher IQ than Blacks.

Playing stats like that may work well in baseball when deciding what pinchitter to put in the game in the 9th inning, but it is very dangerous in other decisions like hiring because IQ is not related to job performance.

As a result I still believe any knowledge of interracial differences in IQ due to genetics has very limited practical application since those genetic variables are most likely present in intraracial groups.
Annnaxim
Posts: 228
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9/24/2016 6:00:29 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/21/2016 6:11:04 PM, slo1 wrote:
As a result I still believe any knowledge of interracial differences in IQ due to genetics has very limited practical application since those genetic variables are most likely present in intraracial groups.
I fully agree with your conclusion. In my opinion a study without a "blind" is not very useful. Unless there is some form of intraracial analysis, the study is all but useless.

Besides... since when is IQ a measure of intelligence? To me IQ is more a test for the type of education a person had.
ZeldaMafia
Posts: 56
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10/9/2016 2:23:34 PM
Posted: 1 month ago
At 8/29/2016 4:59:39 AM, Upiter wrote:
Complete question:
Do different racial/ethnic groups vary in natural intelligence levels?

This is a controversial topic but one that society should be more honest about. The overwhelming evidence points to this as being a grounded empirical fact.

Below is a list of some supporting information to show this is more-or-less the case:

1.
One of the only major mainstream books to dare cover the topic in modern times was written by a Harvard professor of Psychology Richard J. Hernstein and MIT Professor of Political Science Charles Murray called The Bell Curve. There they drew the unambiguous conclusion based on their interpretations of the data that:

"It seems highly likely to us that both genes and the environment have something to do with racial differences."

This book has then been criticized from different sources and, although one of the authors died shortly after from cancer, I'm sure their careers were or would have been embattled or endangered.

2.
The next piece of evidence comes from the Minnesota Transracial Adoption Study. This is probably the most conclusive evidence in my mind out there.

In it, we find a study that compares the performance of white, black, asian/indian (unclear which groups specifically) and interracial black/white children on IQ tests over time. when adopted and raised by a white family.

When tested at a later age of around 17 we found that even though the scores of the adopted black children rose in the new environment they were still around 15 points behind the adopted white children, the same exact difference you would find in the general population.

The mean score for children with two biologically black children was 89.4 after being adopted by white parents; the national mean today is about 85. The mean score for children with two biologically white parents adopted by white parents were 105.6; the national mean is around 100. For the half black/white child, the mean was 98.5; the national mean today can be expected to be somewhere between 85 to 100 so let's say 93-95.

Scroll to page 7 for the full comparison:
http://frihetspartiet.net...

3.
Successful Harvard PhD dissertation on assessing IQs between young children of different races.

The Harvard study finds very small differences in IQ or general intelligence between 8-12 months old with whites outperforming black children at extremely small levels (i.e. .06 std deviations).

However, by age two and four the gap grows much larger:
"By age two (the latest available wave in ECLS), Whites on average outperform children of other races by .3-.4 standard deviations in the raw data, and by .2-.3 standard deviations with the inclusion of extensive controls. In the CPP data, by age four the raw test score gap between Whites and both Hispanics and Blacks is more than .7 standard deviations in the raw data. With controls included, the gap at age four is roughly .3 standard deviations."

It's clear the trend over time converges to the national trend as children age from 1 year old to 2 to 4 years to above go from very small differences, yet still visible, to the national mean of about 1 standard deviation difference between whites and blacks; again IQs of 100 vs 85 respectively nationally on average.

http://scholar.harvard.edu...



Conclusion:

Above was my conclusive evidence, and pretty much very difficult to honestly refute. There is no question in my mind that there are clear genetic differences between races in intelligence. There are very very persistent exact gaps that occur time and time again no matter which way they are measured, converging to about 1 standard deviation difference between the IQ of blacks and whites, visible from a very early age as early as before age 1 or age 2.

This in the long run has very strong implications, namely that racial economic and educational inequalities will always persist because of competition for the best scores, jobs, and performances in cognitively demanding areas. This also means that in terms of politics different racial or ethnic groups will seek to avoid competition while others will embrace it.

I think the problem with your argument is the fact that you have not clearly explained what you refer to "intelligence" in this context. Sure IQ, may be a good shot, but honestly IQ tests and exams leave out many of the important things that govern intellegence as a whole. Typically, IQ tests measure only verbal and mathematical abilities despite the fact that psychologist Howard Gardner identified at least seven types of intelligence.