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Scientific advancement vs Ethics

AlyceTheElectrician
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8/30/2016 1:47:04 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
One year after the successful face transplant of a firefighter, scientists are confident that they are ready to attempt a full human head transplant.

Italian neuroscientist Dr. Sergio Canavero made headlines last year when he announced his plans to perform the first human head transplant in 2017 with the help of Chinese surgeon Dr. Xiaoping Ren.

They have a volunteer patient a Russian man named Valery Spiridonov who suffers from Werdnig-Hoffmann Disease, a rare and often fatal genetic disorder that breaks down muscles and kills nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord that help the body move. Spiridonov is confined to a wheelchair; his limbs are shriveled and his movements essentially limited to feeding himself, typing, and controlling his wheelchair with a joystick.

The Plan:
Spiridonov would be brought in and another surgical team would cool his body to 50 degrees Fahrenheit. This would delay tissue death in the brain for about an hour.

Using a transparent diamond blade, they would then remove both patients" heads from their bodies, ultimately severing their spinal cords at the same time.

A custom-made crane would be used to shift Spiridonov"s head " hanging by Velcro straps " onto the donor body"s neck.

The two ends of the spinal cord would then be fused together with a chemical called polyethylene glycol, or PEG, which has been shown to promote regrowth of cells that make up the spinal cord.

The muscles and blood supply from the donor body would then be joined with Spiridonov"s head, and he would be kept in a coma for three to four weeks to prevent movement as he healed.

Implanted electrodes would be used to stimulate the spinal cord to strengthen new nerve connections.

Canavero has said the transplant " which would require 80 surgeons and cost tens of millions of dollars if approved " would have a "90 percent plus" chance of success.
If approved, the procedure would likely take place in China or another country outside of Europe or the United States, The Atlantic reports, as it would not be approved in the Western world.

Full article:
http://www.msn.com...

Should there be an ethical line for scientific study and advancement?
Or is it acceptable for science to abandon ethics for the sake of advancement?
I say you can't make any significant advancement without taking any significant risk...

AND IF, this procedure is successful, what do you think the implications would be?
If it fails, should the scientist be charged with murder and other crimes?

what say you?
Be who you are, Say what you feel, Because those who mind don"t matter, And those who matter don't mind.

BANGTAN! Blood, Sweat, & Tears> Check it out yes! https://www.youtube.com...
Stronn
Posts: 318
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8/30/2016 5:02:10 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/30/2016 1:47:04 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
One year after the successful face transplant of a firefighter, scientists are confident that they are ready to attempt a full human head transplant.

Italian neuroscientist Dr. Sergio Canavero made headlines last year when he announced his plans to perform the first human head transplant in 2017 with the help of Chinese surgeon Dr. Xiaoping Ren.

They have a volunteer patient a Russian man named Valery Spiridonov who suffers from Werdnig-Hoffmann Disease, a rare and often fatal genetic disorder that breaks down muscles and kills nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord that help the body move. Spiridonov is confined to a wheelchair; his limbs are shriveled and his movements essentially limited to feeding himself, typing, and controlling his wheelchair with a joystick.

The Plan:
Spiridonov would be brought in and another surgical team would cool his body to 50 degrees Fahrenheit. This would delay tissue death in the brain for about an hour.

Using a transparent diamond blade, they would then remove both patients" heads from their bodies, ultimately severing their spinal cords at the same time.

A custom-made crane would be used to shift Spiridonov"s head " hanging by Velcro straps " onto the donor body"s neck.

The two ends of the spinal cord would then be fused together with a chemical called polyethylene glycol, or PEG, which has been shown to promote regrowth of cells that make up the spinal cord.

The muscles and blood supply from the donor body would then be joined with Spiridonov"s head, and he would be kept in a coma for three to four weeks to prevent movement as he healed.

Implanted electrodes would be used to stimulate the spinal cord to strengthen new nerve connections.

Canavero has said the transplant " which would require 80 surgeons and cost tens of millions of dollars if approved " would have a "90 percent plus" chance of success.
If approved, the procedure would likely take place in China or another country outside of Europe or the United States, The Atlantic reports, as it would not be approved in the Western world.

Full article:
http://www.msn.com...

Should there be an ethical line for scientific study and advancement?
Or is it acceptable for science to abandon ethics for the sake of advancement?
I say you can't make any significant advancement without taking any significant risk...

AND IF, this procedure is successful, what do you think the implications would be?
If it fails, should the scientist be charged with murder and other crimes?

what say you?

In principle, I see nothing wrong with the concept. It's just organ donation taken to its logical extreme.

But as practiced in this case, there are grave ethical questions. For one thing, the doctor performing the surgery estimates a 90% success chance? Talk about unrealistic expectations. Making such a drastically overoptimistic prediction to convince a candidate to agree to the procedure is completely unethical.
AlyceTheElectrician
Posts: 233
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8/30/2016 5:07:42 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/30/2016 5:02:10 PM, Stronn wrote:
At 8/30/2016 1:47:04 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
One year after the successful face transplant of a firefighter, scientists are confident that they are ready to attempt a full human head transplant.

Italian neuroscientist Dr. Sergio Canavero made headlines last year when he announced his plans to perform the first human head transplant in 2017 with the help of Chinese surgeon Dr. Xiaoping Ren.

They have a volunteer patient a Russian man named Valery Spiridonov who suffers from Werdnig-Hoffmann Disease, a rare and often fatal genetic disorder that breaks down muscles and kills nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord that help the body move. Spiridonov is confined to a wheelchair; his limbs are shriveled and his movements essentially limited to feeding himself, typing, and controlling his wheelchair with a joystick.

The Plan:
Spiridonov would be brought in and another surgical team would cool his body to 50 degrees Fahrenheit. This would delay tissue death in the brain for about an hour.

Using a transparent diamond blade, they would then remove both patients" heads from their bodies, ultimately severing their spinal cords at the same time.

A custom-made crane would be used to shift Spiridonov"s head " hanging by Velcro straps " onto the donor body"s neck.

The two ends of the spinal cord would then be fused together with a chemical called polyethylene glycol, or PEG, which has been shown to promote regrowth of cells that make up the spinal cord.

The muscles and blood supply from the donor body would then be joined with Spiridonov"s head, and he would be kept in a coma for three to four weeks to prevent movement as he healed.

Implanted electrodes would be used to stimulate the spinal cord to strengthen new nerve connections.

Canavero has said the transplant " which would require 80 surgeons and cost tens of millions of dollars if approved " would have a "90 percent plus" chance of success.
If approved, the procedure would likely take place in China or another country outside of Europe or the United States, The Atlantic reports, as it would not be approved in the Western world.

Full article:
http://www.msn.com...

Should there be an ethical line for scientific study and advancement?
Or is it acceptable for science to abandon ethics for the sake of advancement?
I say you can't make any significant advancement without taking any significant risk...

AND IF, this procedure is successful, what do you think the implications would be?
If it fails, should the scientist be charged with murder and other crimes?

what say you?

In principle, I see nothing wrong with the concept. It's just organ donation taken to its logical extreme.

But as practiced in this case, there are grave ethical questions. For one thing, the doctor performing the surgery estimates a 90% success chance? Talk about unrealistic expectations. Making such a drastically overoptimistic prediction to convince a candidate to agree to the procedure is completely unethical.

so true, I think that's why opposing scientist suggest that the scientist and surgeon performing the transplant should be charged with murder should the volunteer die as a result of the transplant.

But since the patient volunteered aware that death could result, I'm not completely sold. It's no different than elective surgery I think.
Be who you are, Say what you feel, Because those who mind don"t matter, And those who matter don't mind.

BANGTAN! Blood, Sweat, & Tears> Check it out yes! https://www.youtube.com...
ANON_TacTiX
Posts: 460
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8/31/2016 7:56:41 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/30/2016 1:47:04 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
One year after the successful face transplant of a firefighter, scientists are confident that they are ready to attempt a full human head transplant.

Italian neuroscientist Dr. Sergio Canavero made headlines last year when he announced his plans to perform the first human head transplant in 2017 with the help of Chinese surgeon Dr. Xiaoping Ren.

They have a volunteer patient a Russian man named Valery Spiridonov who suffers from Werdnig-Hoffmann Disease, a rare and often fatal genetic disorder that breaks down muscles and kills nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord that help the body move. Spiridonov is confined to a wheelchair; his limbs are shriveled and his movements essentially limited to feeding himself, typing, and controlling his wheelchair with a joystick.

The Plan:
Spiridonov would be brought in and another surgical team would cool his body to 50 degrees Fahrenheit. This would delay tissue death in the brain for about an hour.

Using a transparent diamond blade, they would then remove both patients" heads from their bodies, ultimately severing their spinal cords at the same time.

A custom-made crane would be used to shift Spiridonov"s head " hanging by Velcro straps " onto the donor body"s neck.

The two ends of the spinal cord would then be fused together with a chemical called polyethylene glycol, or PEG, which has been shown to promote regrowth of cells that make up the spinal cord.

The muscles and blood supply from the donor body would then be joined with Spiridonov"s head, and he would be kept in a coma for three to four weeks to prevent movement as he healed.

Implanted electrodes would be used to stimulate the spinal cord to strengthen new nerve connections.

Canavero has said the transplant " which would require 80 surgeons and cost tens of millions of dollars if approved " would have a "90 percent plus" chance of success.
If approved, the procedure would likely take place in China or another country outside of Europe or the United States, The Atlantic reports, as it would not be approved in the Western world.

Full article:
http://www.msn.com...

Should there be an ethical line for scientific study and advancement?
Obviously, yes. If science were to just abandon ethics and do whatever it took to advance, it would lose an immense amount of support. Of course, the advancement of the human race is priority, but science can't advance without support of the masses.
Or is it acceptable for science to abandon ethics for the sake of advancement?
I say you can't make any significant advancement without taking any significant risk...
Of course, it is sometimes necessary to take risks. That is what this operation is. Risky. You still can't abandon ethics, though. If not for moral reasons, science must remain ethical to keep support. Advancements cannot be made without support.
AND IF, this procedure is successful, what do you think the implications would be?
Time for Hawking to get out of that chair? Seriously, though. It would be amazing. Think about all of the brilliant minds we could save, simply by transplanting them to a different body.
If it fails, should the scientist be charged with murder and other crimes?
They shouldn't be. The Russian is a consenting adult. He understands the risks and is willing to put his life on the line for scientific advancement and the possibility of a better life. Also, when a major surgery goes wrong (heart transplant, for example), the doctor is not blamed for the patient's death. This is not all that different.
what say you?
I say, go right ahead. This could be one of the largest medical breakthroughs in human history. This could open up a whole new world of possibilities. For science and the advancement of humanity, do it.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning. - Albert Einstein
keithprosser
Posts: 2,066
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8/31/2016 10:50:17 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
I would have called it a body transplant, and indeed in The Daily Telegraph quotes
Mr Spiridinov thus:

"If I have a chance of full body replacement I will get rid of the limits and be more independent", he said.

So it is a body replacement for the head, not a head replacement for the body. That the other way around for a 'Heart transplant'.

Having that cleared that up, I'm happy with the concept. I'm not as confident as the surgeon that the chance of success is 90%, but just as heart transplantation has gone from an experimental technique to amost routine, whole-BODY transplants may well get that nearly that safe sooner rather than later.

The question is, whose body would I like my head attached to? Arnold Schwarznegger possibly but a bit obvious and over-worn now. How about Britney Spears? It would go well with my bald head and beard.

.
AlyceTheElectrician
Posts: 233
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9/1/2016 2:55:10 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/31/2016 10:50:17 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I would have called it a body transplant, and indeed in The Daily Telegraph quotes
Mr Spiridinov thus:

"If I have a chance of full body replacement I will get rid of the limits and be more independent", he said.

So it is a body replacement for the head, not a head replacement for the body. That the other way around for a 'Heart transplant'.

Having that cleared that up, I'm happy with the concept. I'm not as confident as the surgeon that the chance of success is 90%, but just as heart transplantation has gone from an experimental technique to amost routine, whole-BODY transplants may well get that nearly that safe sooner rather than later.

The question is, whose body would I like my head attached to? Arnold Schwarznegger possibly but a bit obvious and over-worn now. How about Britney Spears? It would go well with my bald head and beard.


given that the optimism of success might be a bit exaggerated, do you feel it's unethical to project that optimism, and should the scientist and surgeon be charged with murder if the process fails?

Apparently they've already transplanted a chimpanzee's head to another chimps body with success, the articles have been published in scientific journals, but the papers haven't been peer reviewed yet.
Be who you are, Say what you feel, Because those who mind don"t matter, And those who matter don't mind.

BANGTAN! Blood, Sweat, & Tears> Check it out yes! https://www.youtube.com...
keithprosser
Posts: 2,066
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9/1/2016 4:26:02 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
I can't judge the chances of success - I know absolutely nothing about neuro-surgery, except that I watched a bad episode of Star Trek and it was considered very difficult to put Spock's brain back in his head when it was removed by aliens, but that hardly makes me an expert.

Is it unethical to be over-confident? I think it can be. For example, I think it is unethical to offer 'cryonic' services, freezing dead bodies in the faint hope of unspecified future technology restoring them because it is pretty obviously a naked scam for making money out of the gullible. I don't get the idea that applies in this instance - it isn't obviously a scam, and there is (AFAIK) a chance it will actually work, giving the subject an improved quality of life.

Outward confidence is probably better than saying 'we're expecting it to go horribly wrong, but we're doing it anyway'. On balance, I wouldn't call over-confidence unethical, but who's to say he is over-confident at this stage? If it's a wopping lie and the surgeon knows he has no chance of success then I'd call it unethical or at least unprofessinal, otherwise I wouldn't.
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
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9/5/2016 3:07:10 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
I read the OP and busted out laughing, thinking that a head transplant was a joke. Then I realized you were serious.

To me, ethics are principles based on moral philosophy, which is itself based upon resistance of the ego. I don't immediately see that this is too ethically relevant, but I have seen the pattern of technology throughout history and it is invariably that we will create new abilities while also creating more problems. While I can't enumerate what exactly these problems are going to be at this time, I would bet my life we will be swimming in them in no time once we get going.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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9/5/2016 3:12:20 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/30/2016 1:47:04 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:

Should there be an ethical line for scientific study and advancement?
Or is it acceptable for science to abandon ethics for the sake of advancement?

Can you explain a scenario in which a scientific advancement does not hurt a person, animal or the environment yet is unethical, and why? I'm not so sure one exists.
AlyceTheElectrician
Posts: 233
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9/5/2016 11:34:04 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/1/2016 4:26:02 PM, keithprosser wrote:
I can't judge the chances of success - I know absolutely nothing about neuro-surgery, except that I watched a bad episode of Star Trek and it was considered very difficult to put Spock's brain back in his head when it was removed by aliens, but that hardly makes me an expert.

Is it unethical to be over-confident? I think it can be. For example, I think it is unethical to offer 'cryonic' services, freezing dead bodies in the faint hope of unspecified future technology restoring them because it is pretty obviously a naked scam for making money out of the gullible. I don't get the idea that applies in this instance - it isn't obviously a scam, and there is (AFAIK) a chance it will actually work, giving the subject an improved quality of life.

Outward confidence is probably better than saying 'we're expecting it to go horribly wrong, but we're doing it anyway'. On balance, I wouldn't call over-confidence unethical, but who's to say he is over-confident at this stage? If it's a wopping lie and the surgeon knows he has no chance of success then I'd call it unethical or at least unprofessinal, otherwise I wouldn't.

good point.
Be who you are, Say what you feel, Because those who mind don"t matter, And those who matter don't mind.

BANGTAN! Blood, Sweat, & Tears> Check it out yes! https://www.youtube.com...
AlyceTheElectrician
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9/5/2016 11:36:44 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/5/2016 3:07:10 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
I read the OP and busted out laughing, thinking that a head transplant was a joke. Then I realized you were serious.

To me, ethics are principles based on moral philosophy, which is itself based upon resistance of the ego. I don't immediately see that this is too ethically relevant, but I have seen the pattern of technology throughout history and it is invariably that we will create new abilities while also creating more problems. While I can't enumerate what exactly these problems are going to be at this time, I would bet my life we will be swimming in them in no time once we get going.

It's so crazy that this will take place during our lifetime, and if successful the implications are going to be astronomical, and so many new questions about the human condition arise, it really is very exciting, and anticipation for the results is killer!
Be who you are, Say what you feel, Because those who mind don"t matter, And those who matter don't mind.

BANGTAN! Blood, Sweat, & Tears> Check it out yes! https://www.youtube.com...
AlyceTheElectrician
Posts: 233
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9/5/2016 11:56:42 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/5/2016 3:12:20 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/30/2016 1:47:04 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:

Should there be an ethical line for scientific study and advancement?
Or is it acceptable for science to abandon ethics for the sake of advancement?

Can you explain a scenario in which a scientific advancement does not hurt a person, animal or the environment yet is unethical, and why? I'm not so sure one exists.

some might argue that stem cell research is unethical but I haven't learned much about this area of medical science to make a proper conclusion on whether it's harmful and unethical.

I mean, having a organ farm where scientist grow vital organs in a lab used to replace organs gone awry in living people in practicality seems like a good idea, but I haven't taken the time to think it through. I imagine that awful human blood farm like in Blade Trinity

https://www.youtube.com...

ewwwwww!! LOL.
Be who you are, Say what you feel, Because those who mind don"t matter, And those who matter don't mind.

BANGTAN! Blood, Sweat, & Tears> Check it out yes! https://www.youtube.com...
matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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9/5/2016 2:45:44 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/5/2016 11:56:42 AM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
At 9/5/2016 3:12:20 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 8/30/2016 1:47:04 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:

Should there be an ethical line for scientific study and advancement?
Or is it acceptable for science to abandon ethics for the sake of advancement?

Can you explain a scenario in which a scientific advancement does not hurt a person, animal or the environment yet is unethical, and why? I'm not so sure one exists.

some might argue that stem cell research is unethical but I haven't learned much about this area of medical science to make a proper conclusion on whether it's harmful and unethical.

The embryos being used in embryonic stem cell research come from eggs that were fertilized at in vitro fertilization clinics but never implanted in a woman's uterus. The stem cells are donated with informed consent from donors. Religious people think that using a fertilized egg is murdering a person.

I can just hear them - "Tom, the fertilized egg, really likes ice cream." :)
R0b1Billion
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9/8/2016 10:34:27 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/5/2016 11:36:44 AM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
At 9/5/2016 3:07:10 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
I read the OP and busted out laughing, thinking that a head transplant was a joke. Then I realized you were serious.

To me, ethics are principles based on moral philosophy, which is itself based upon resistance of the ego. I don't immediately see that this is too ethically relevant, but I have seen the pattern of technology throughout history and it is invariably that we will create new abilities while also creating more problems. While I can't enumerate what exactly these problems are going to be at this time, I would bet my life we will be swimming in them in no time once we get going.

It's so crazy that this will take place during our lifetime, and if successful the implications are going to be astronomical, and so many new questions about the human condition arise, it really is very exciting, and anticipation for the results is killer!

I'm not getting my hopes up... Hey how long have you been an electrician? I am hopefully going to be an apprentice soon. If be interested in hearing your thoughts on the field...
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
AlyceTheElectrician
Posts: 233
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9/9/2016 12:21:45 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/8/2016 10:34:27 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 9/5/2016 11:36:44 AM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
At 9/5/2016 3:07:10 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
I read the OP and busted out laughing, thinking that a head transplant was a joke. Then I realized you were serious.

To me, ethics are principles based on moral philosophy, which is itself based upon resistance of the ego. I don't immediately see that this is too ethically relevant, but I have seen the pattern of technology throughout history and it is invariably that we will create new abilities while also creating more problems. While I can't enumerate what exactly these problems are going to be at this time, I would bet my life we will be swimming in them in no time once we get going.

It's so crazy that this will take place during our lifetime, and if successful the implications are going to be astronomical, and so many new questions about the human condition arise, it really is very exciting, and anticipation for the results is killer!

I'm not getting my hopes up... Hey how long have you been an electrician? I am hopefully going to be an apprentice soon. If be interested in hearing your thoughts on the field...

I've been an electrician for 16 years, I have certification in PLC elevators, pump motor rewind, and electro-hydraulic plant systems and control circuits, I'm currently working with the US Navy on EMALS (electro-magnetic aircraft launch system) for the upcoming USS ford with General Atomic at Northrop Grumman shipbuilders in Virginia. I absolutely love being an electrician, it's a field with a wide variety of career directions from construction, to movie sets and concerts, to Los Vegas lighting, to nuclear power plant maintenance, to automotive, to schematic diagram writing, technical manual writing, to children's toys and games, the jobs are endless and always in demand. The money is really good depending on experience, college degrees, and certifications. Depending on which direction you decide to go, college is not necessary to get ahead, but certifications are always required so I'd work on getting certified first, some college degrees come with certifications which is cool too.

Now, it can be very labor intensive, time demanding (spending countless hours working on projects), health hazardous (for handling different chemicals and harmful materials used in electrical circuits), and dangerous (electrocution and shock plus working aloft sometimes) at times, but the money and gratification of completing a project, adding it to your experience, building a reputation as a really great electrician from references is worth it in my opinion.

And when you're too old to do the work, you can become a teacher or professor at college. It's a very good trade to learn, and a very good field to participate in.
Be who you are, Say what you feel, Because those who mind don"t matter, And those who matter don't mind.

BANGTAN! Blood, Sweat, & Tears> Check it out yes! https://www.youtube.com...
R0b1Billion
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9/9/2016 2:51:11 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/9/2016 12:21:45 AM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:

I've been an electrician for 16 years, I have certification in PLC elevators, pump motor rewind, and electro-hydraulic plant systems and control circuits, I'm currently working with the US Navy on EMALS (electro-magnetic aircraft launch system) for the upcoming USS ford with General Atomic at Northrop Grumman shipbuilders in Virginia. I absolutely love being an electrician, it's a field with a wide variety of career directions from construction, to movie sets and concerts, to Los Vegas lighting, to nuclear power plant maintenance, to automotive, to schematic diagram writing, technical manual writing, to children's toys and games, the jobs are endless and always in demand. The money is really good depending on experience, college degrees, and certifications. Depending on which direction you decide to go, college is not necessary to get ahead, but certifications are always required so I'd work on getting certified first, some college degrees come with certifications which is cool too.

Now, it can be very labor intensive, time demanding (spending countless hours working on projects), health hazardous (for handling different chemicals and harmful materials used in electrical circuits), and dangerous (electrocution and shock plus working aloft sometimes) at times, but the money and gratification of completing a project, adding it to your experience, building a reputation as a really great electrician from references is worth it in my opinion.

And when you're too old to do the work, you can become a teacher or professor at college. It's a very good trade to learn, and a very good field to participate in.

That's awesome. I got my bachelor's in environmental policy and couldn't really get anything going so I decided to do something more useful. I started as a helper 2 years ago and in should be an apprentice soon, unjust joined the union here in green bay Wisconsin. I'm doing construction, a mix of residential, industrial, and commercial. After I become a journeyman I am interested in seeing what somebody with a degree can do in the field, I am thinking perhaps inspection or teaching but you bring up many more interesting options... I've only ever looked at the electric field in terms of construction.

I doubt many if any of the younger people on a site like this can appreciate what you mean by describing it as gratifying, but i know what you mean. When you build things there is a special element of satisfaction that doesn't really exist in other professions, to be able to take raw materials and shape them into something useful. Nobody can understand that until they do it.

I'm fascinated that an electrician would be on an intellectual website, not many electricians are the least bit into philosophy of science... At least not in the construction field. And I'm also always fascinated by females that would enter the trades, im assuming you are female by your name. As you mentioned, it is physically demanding and the vast majority of women would never consider it. Up here in Wisconsin most of the guys I work with are hunters, northwoods, fishing/boating-type guys, I love my work but I must resign myself to being very intellectually-dim in order to fit in. I'm guessing your position isn't similar to mine in that respect...
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,733
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9/9/2016 2:54:28 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
Sorry about all the typos my phone rearranged it on me and I accidentally replied instead of editing it. Hope you aren't too confused!
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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9/9/2016 11:17:09 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 8/30/2016 1:47:04 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
One year after the successful face transplant of a firefighter, scientists are confident that they are ready to attempt a full human head transplant.

Italian neuroscientist Dr. Sergio Canavero made headlines last year when he announced his plans to perform the first human head transplant in 2017 with the help of Chinese surgeon Dr. Xiaoping Ren.

They have a volunteer patient a Russian man named Valery Spiridonov who suffers from Werdnig-Hoffmann Disease, a rare and often fatal genetic disorder that breaks down muscles and kills nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord that help the body move. Spiridonov is confined to a wheelchair; his limbs are shriveled and his movements essentially limited to feeding himself, typing, and controlling his wheelchair with a joystick.

The Plan:
Spiridonov would be brought in and another surgical team would cool his body to 50 degrees Fahrenheit. This would delay tissue death in the brain for about an hour.

Using a transparent diamond blade, they would then remove both patients" heads from their bodies, ultimately severing their spinal cords at the same time.

A custom-made crane would be used to shift Spiridonov"s head " hanging by Velcro straps " onto the donor body"s neck.

The two ends of the spinal cord would then be fused together with a chemical called polyethylene glycol, or PEG, which has been shown to promote regrowth of cells that make up the spinal cord.

The muscles and blood supply from the donor body would then be joined with Spiridonov"s head, and he would be kept in a coma for three to four weeks to prevent movement as he healed.

Implanted electrodes would be used to stimulate the spinal cord to strengthen new nerve connections.

Canavero has said the transplant " which would require 80 surgeons and cost tens of millions of dollars if approved " would have a "90 percent plus" chance of success.
If approved, the procedure would likely take place in China or another country outside of Europe or the United States, The Atlantic reports, as it would not be approved in the Western world.

Full article:
http://www.msn.com...

Should there be an ethical line for scientific study and advancement?
Or is it acceptable for science to abandon ethics for the sake of advancement?
I say you can't make any significant advancement without taking any significant risk...

AND IF, this procedure is successful, what do you think the implications would be?
If it fails, should the scientist be charged with murder and other crimes?

what say you?

How exactly is this unethical?
Meh!
R0b1Billion
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9/10/2016 2:05:28 AM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/9/2016 11:17:09 AM, Axonly wrote:

How exactly is this unethical?

It's not in the sense that it directly violates somebody, but it is an area of science which is ripe for abuse. We always justify the means with the ends, and say that the potential gains effectively offset the losses - but some would say that such a balance does not exist. You cant cause harm and then justify and offset that harm with a benefit.

Specifically, I would say that there is a high chance that somebody who undergoes this procedure will endure Frankenstein-ish horrors. I don't see that even the alternative of death would be worth it. So much of our technology causes harm in insidious ways that are rarely given the recognition they ought to...
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
AlyceTheElectrician
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9/10/2016 5:00:25 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/9/2016 2:51:11 AM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 9/9/2016 12:21:45 AM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:

I've been an electrician for 16 years, I have certification in PLC elevators, pump motor rewind, and electro-hydraulic plant systems and control circuits, I'm currently working with the US Navy on EMALS (electro-magnetic aircraft launch system) for the upcoming USS ford with General Atomic at Northrop Grumman shipbuilders in Virginia. I absolutely love being an electrician, it's a field with a wide variety of career directions from construction, to movie sets and concerts, to Los Vegas lighting, to nuclear power plant maintenance, to automotive, to schematic diagram writing, technical manual writing, to children's toys and games, the jobs are endless and always in demand. The money is really good depending on experience, college degrees, and certifications. Depending on which direction you decide to go, college is not necessary to get ahead, but certifications are always required so I'd work on getting certified first, some college degrees come with certifications which is cool too.

Now, it can be very labor intensive, time demanding (spending countless hours working on projects), health hazardous (for handling different chemicals and harmful materials used in electrical circuits), and dangerous (electrocution and shock plus working aloft sometimes) at times, but the money and gratification of completing a project, adding it to your experience, building a reputation as a really great electrician from references is worth it in my opinion.

And when you're too old to do the work, you can become a teacher or professor at college. It's a very good trade to learn, and a very good field to participate in.

That's awesome. I got my bachelor's in environmental policy and couldn't really get anything going so I decided to do something more useful. I started as a helper 2 years ago and in should be an apprentice soon, unjust joined the union here in green bay Wisconsin. I'm doing construction, a mix of residential, industrial, and commercial. After I become a journeyman I am interested in seeing what somebody with a degree can do in the field, I am thinking perhaps inspection or teaching but you bring up many more interesting options... I've only ever looked at the electric field in terms of construction.

I doubt many if any of the younger people on a site like this can appreciate what you mean by describing it as gratifying, but i know what you mean. When you build things there is a special element of satisfaction that doesn't really exist in other professions, to be able to take raw materials and shape them into something useful. Nobody can understand that until they do it.

So true, the best gratification for me it getting broken things working again, or refurbishing/upgrading old things with new electrical upgrades.

I'm fascinated that an electrician would be on an intellectual website, not many electricians are the least bit into philosophy of science... At least not in the construction field. And I'm also always fascinated by females that would enter the trades, im assuming you are female by your name. As you mentioned, it is physically demanding and the vast majority of women would never consider it. Up here in Wisconsin most of the guys I work with are hunters, northwoods, fishing/boating-type guys, I love my work but I must resign myself to being very intellectually-dim in order to fit in. I'm guessing your position isn't similar to mine in that respect...

I'm used to working with "nuclear trained" technicians and electronic techs, they are pretty awkward nerd types, there's not a lot of intellectual talk in politics and world events. I've had more conversation on entertainment things like video games, and music then anything else.

It's true, I'm female, and to be completely honest, the most labor intensive things I've participated in is running 100's of feet of cable, and installing fluorescent lighting fixtures in cargo elevator shafts, and replacing motor controllers that caught on fire. I never work alone, always with a team of about 6 or 8, and usually I'm the only girl on the team. I get used to fitting into small crevices, and slithering behind installed things to reach switches and stuff like that, going aloft, or over the side because I'm pretty small so the guys feel confident that they can hold me up and not drop me, lol. I really enjoy it, I've never felt unwelcome by the guys, and I do my best to contribute, and I make sure I don't complain about the task I get, I just put it in my mind to just do it, lol.

Most of the things I've participated in involved troubleshooting systems already installed, repairing or replacing faulty components like proximity switches, or small solid state devices in control circuits, upgrading, maintenance, op-testing and diagnostics.
Be who you are, Say what you feel, Because those who mind don"t matter, And those who matter don't mind.

BANGTAN! Blood, Sweat, & Tears> Check it out yes! https://www.youtube.com...
AlyceTheElectrician
Posts: 233
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9/10/2016 5:06:27 PM
Posted: 3 months ago
At 9/9/2016 11:17:09 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 8/30/2016 1:47:04 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
One year after the successful face transplant of a firefighter, scientists are confident that they are ready to attempt a full human head transplant.

Italian neuroscientist Dr. Sergio Canavero made headlines last year when he announced his plans to perform the first human head transplant in 2017 with the help of Chinese surgeon Dr. Xiaoping Ren.

They have a volunteer patient a Russian man named Valery Spiridonov who suffers from Werdnig-Hoffmann Disease, a rare and often fatal genetic disorder that breaks down muscles and kills nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord that help the body move. Spiridonov is confined to a wheelchair; his limbs are shriveled and his movements essentially limited to feeding himself, typing, and controlling his wheelchair with a joystick.

The Plan:
Spiridonov would be brought in and another surgical team would cool his body to 50 degrees Fahrenheit. This would delay tissue death in the brain for about an hour.

Using a transparent diamond blade, they would then remove both patients" heads from their bodies, ultimately severing their spinal cords at the same time.

A custom-made crane would be used to shift Spiridonov"s head " hanging by Velcro straps " onto the donor body"s neck.

The two ends of the spinal cord would then be fused together with a chemical called polyethylene glycol, or PEG, which has been shown to promote regrowth of cells that make up the spinal cord.

The muscles and blood supply from the donor body would then be joined with Spiridonov"s head, and he would be kept in a coma for three to four weeks to prevent movement as he healed.

Implanted electrodes would be used to stimulate the spinal cord to strengthen new nerve connections.

Canavero has said the transplant " which would require 80 surgeons and cost tens of millions of dollars if approved " would have a "90 percent plus" chance of success.
If approved, the procedure would likely take place in China or another country outside of Europe or the United States, The Atlantic reports, as it would not be approved in the Western world.

Full article:
http://www.msn.com...

Should there be an ethical line for scientific study and advancement?
Or is it acceptable for science to abandon ethics for the sake of advancement?
I say you can't make any significant advancement without taking any significant risk...

AND IF, this procedure is successful, what do you think the implications would be?
If it fails, should the scientist be charged with murder and other crimes?

what say you?

How exactly is this unethical?

Arguably...

Promoting experimental junk science and creating false hopes.

This procedure would require a body from a young brain-dead male patient.

Implications on human identity, after the head is attached to a foreign body.

With his new body, his children would not have his genetic makeup but that of the donor"s. What kind of rights, then, might the donor"s family have to the offspring?

If unsuccesful, this procedure would take away vital donor organs that could have been used for someone else who needed a heart or a liver transplant to save their lives
Be who you are, Say what you feel, Because those who mind don"t matter, And those who matter don't mind.

BANGTAN! Blood, Sweat, & Tears> Check it out yes! https://www.youtube.com...
keithprosser
Posts: 2,066
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9/12/2016 7:55:32 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
I would say those are all valid points, but only the first is a matter of ethics. The others seem more to do with practical matters. But what is and what is not an ethical issue is semantics. But I would expect a physician to be professionally at fault only for going against point 1. What the implications of the procedure becoming commonplace or commercialised are do not impact on whether it is right to proceed in this specific case.
zaarbuc
Posts: 43
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9/13/2016 7:58:58 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
Should there be an ethical line for scientific study and advancement?
Obviously, experimenting on humans without their consent for example absolutely crosses that line. In most cases though I would lean towards scientific advancement and I don't think this procedure crosses it.
Or is it acceptable for science to abandon ethics for the sake of advancement?
See above.
I say you can't make any significant advancement without taking any significant risk...

AND IF, this procedure is successful, what do you think the implications would be?
One advancement that seems to me could really come from this is the ability to heal spinal injuries in para and quadriplegics in their own bodies. This could also advance limb replacement (hand, arm, leg, etc) surgeries which are still in their infancy.

Body swapping could have some major societal implications. Donor bodies would obviously be a scarcity as it would require a dead donor with an otherwise healthy body, not many deaths fit that criteria and I am sure there are biological compatibility factors to consider as with all organ replacements. As someone else pointed out many more lives could be saved or improved by donating the organs piecemeal (heart, lung, liver, kidneys, cornea, etc.) As noted by the price tag the surgery would only be an option for the very rich. I could see a black market developing for donor bodies. Very powerful individuals would first seek out poor living compatible donors and convince them to take their own lives in a manner that would preserve the body in exchange for large monetary payments to the donor's family. This would IMHO be unethical but when has ethics ever stood in the way of money and power. I predict it would only be a matter of time before at least one individual who refuses would even be blackmailed or outright killed for their body. What parent would not give their own life to save to save their child? I do not think these implications should stand in the way of progress for legitimately ethical cases though.

Another factor to consider is the longevity this could provide some people, only degeneration of the head itself could not be cured by this and once the spinal cord can be repaired how long before it becomes only the brain needs to be transplanted and not the whole head? Only illnesses like Alzheimer's and dementia would stand in the way of an ultra elite class of super centenarians and of course the rich only get richer creating an even greater wealth unbalance in the world.
If it fails, should the scientist be charged with murder and other crimes?
No, why should he? I suspect he is way overestimating the chances of success for such an experimental surgery but the volunteer is aware of the risks so I see little different between this and patients dying during other organ replacement surgeries.
what say you?
I say go for it.