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Does science leave any room for free will?

imperialchimp
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9/17/2016 2:59:00 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
To me it doesn't seem to support free will because of Newton's laws of motion. I do however have a feeling we do have free will. Might just be an illusion...
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

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Axonly
Posts: 1,801
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9/19/2016 12:33:18 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/17/2016 2:59:00 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
To me it doesn't seem to support free will because of Newton's laws of motion. I do however have a feeling we do have free will. Might just be an illusion...

Not in a technical sense, but just based on the sheer complexity of our brains, it may as well be.
Meh!
AlyceTheElectrician
Posts: 232
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9/19/2016 5:45:36 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/17/2016 2:59:00 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
To me it doesn't seem to support free will because of Newton's laws of motion. I do however have a feeling we do have free will. Might just be an illusion...

You should read Sam Harris-- "Free will is an illusion. Our wills are simply not of our own making. Thoughts and intentions emerge from background causes of which we are unaware and over which we exert no conscious control."

the famous EEG experiments conducted by the physiologist Benjamin Libet and others in the early 1980s. They showed that the brain makes decisions before consciousness becomes aware of them. and activity in the brain"s motor cortex can be detected some 300 milliseconds, almost enough time for LeBron James to get off a shot ahead of the buzzer, before a person feels that he has decided to move.

I'm not so convinced yet though, our brains are so complex and still have many secrets we have yet to discover within it.
Be who you are, Say what you feel, Because those who mind don"t matter, And those who matter don't mind.

BANGTAN! Blood, Sweat, & Tears> Check it out yes! https://www.youtube.com...
chui
Posts: 507
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9/19/2016 6:12:49 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/17/2016 2:59:00 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
To me it doesn't seem to support free will because of Newton's laws of motion. I do however have a feeling we do have free will. Might just be an illusion...

According to Newton the universe runs like clockwork and is totally predictable. However quantum physics does not agree with this view and brings in uncertainty as a fundamental part of reality, so many argue that this leaves room from free will since the universe is no longer predictable in a Newtonian sense.
kevin24018
Posts: 1,804
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9/19/2016 7:02:59 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/19/2016 5:45:36 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
At 9/17/2016 2:59:00 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
To me it doesn't seem to support free will because of Newton's laws of motion. I do however have a feeling we do have free will. Might just be an illusion...

You should read Sam Harris-- "Free will is an illusion. Our wills are simply not of our own making. Thoughts and intentions emerge from background causes of which we are unaware and over which we exert no conscious control."

the famous EEG experiments conducted by the physiologist Benjamin Libet and others in the early 1980s. They showed that the brain makes decisions before consciousness becomes aware of them. and activity in the brain"s motor cortex can be detected some 300 milliseconds, almost enough time for LeBron James to get off a shot ahead of the buzzer, before a person feels that he has decided to move.

I'm not so convinced yet though, our brains are so complex and still have many secrets we have yet to discover within it.

I watched a documentary on the very similar ideas, it's pretty interesting to think about for sure, to me it equates to instinct, reactionary verses conscious decision.
AlyceTheElectrician
Posts: 232
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9/19/2016 8:30:52 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/19/2016 7:02:59 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/19/2016 5:45:36 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
At 9/17/2016 2:59:00 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
To me it doesn't seem to support free will because of Newton's laws of motion. I do however have a feeling we do have free will. Might just be an illusion...

You should read Sam Harris-- "Free will is an illusion. Our wills are simply not of our own making. Thoughts and intentions emerge from background causes of which we are unaware and over which we exert no conscious control."

the famous EEG experiments conducted by the physiologist Benjamin Libet and others in the early 1980s. They showed that the brain makes decisions before consciousness becomes aware of them. and activity in the brain"s motor cortex can be detected some 300 milliseconds, almost enough time for LeBron James to get off a shot ahead of the buzzer, before a person feels that he has decided to move.

I'm not so convinced yet though, our brains are so complex and still have many secrets we have yet to discover within it.

I watched a documentary on the very similar ideas, it's pretty interesting to think about for sure, to me it equates to instinct, reactionary verses conscious decision.

I'm warming up to the idea, there are so many outside entities like marketing that play on our brains and causes us to make "conscious decisions" when probably the power of suggestion is the culprit.

Plus, I watched a doc on MK ULTRA, and it's so freaking crazy how puppet like a person can get without realizing it, it's unsettling really.
Be who you are, Say what you feel, Because those who mind don"t matter, And those who matter don't mind.

BANGTAN! Blood, Sweat, & Tears> Check it out yes! https://www.youtube.com...
kevin24018
Posts: 1,804
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9/19/2016 8:35:03 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/19/2016 8:30:52 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
At 9/19/2016 7:02:59 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 9/19/2016 5:45:36 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
At 9/17/2016 2:59:00 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
To me it doesn't seem to support free will because of Newton's laws of motion. I do however have a feeling we do have free will. Might just be an illusion...

You should read Sam Harris-- "Free will is an illusion. Our wills are simply not of our own making. Thoughts and intentions emerge from background causes of which we are unaware and over which we exert no conscious control."

the famous EEG experiments conducted by the physiologist Benjamin Libet and others in the early 1980s. They showed that the brain makes decisions before consciousness becomes aware of them. and activity in the brain"s motor cortex can be detected some 300 milliseconds, almost enough time for LeBron James to get off a shot ahead of the buzzer, before a person feels that he has decided to move.

I'm not so convinced yet though, our brains are so complex and still have many secrets we have yet to discover within it.

I watched a documentary on the very similar ideas, it's pretty interesting to think about for sure, to me it equates to instinct, reactionary verses conscious decision.

I'm warming up to the idea, there are so many outside entities like marketing that play on our brains and causes us to make "conscious decisions" when probably the power of suggestion is the culprit.

Plus, I watched a doc on MK ULTRA, and it's so freaking crazy how puppet like a person can get without realizing it, it's unsettling really.

I can't remember the name of it, but it's on prime, they had a lot of magicians on it to explain what they were talking about, it's worth watching if you have prime.
Annnaxim
Posts: 214
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9/24/2016 9:38:35 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/19/2016 12:33:18 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/17/2016 2:59:00 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
To me it doesn't seem to support free will because of Newton's laws of motion. I do however have a feeling we do have free will. Might just be an illusion...

Not in a technical sense, but just based on the sheer complexity of our brains, it may as well be.

Hi, I am new here. (my Nick is a tribute to the first greek scientists: Anaximander and Anaximenes). Free Will has always fascinated me.
I believe we don't have free will, but we do have the freedom of choice " something which I find a good enough substitute.
Freedom of choice does me fine in everyday life.
Smithereens
Posts: 5,512
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9/24/2016 1:13:44 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/24/2016 9:38:35 AM, Annnaxim wrote:
At 9/19/2016 12:33:18 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 9/17/2016 2:59:00 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
To me it doesn't seem to support free will because of Newton's laws of motion. I do however have a feeling we do have free will. Might just be an illusion...

Not in a technical sense, but just based on the sheer complexity of our brains, it may as well be.

Hi, I am new here. (my Nick is a tribute to the first greek scientists: Anaximander and Anaximenes). Free Will has always fascinated me.
I believe we don't have free will, but we do have the freedom of choice " something which I find a good enough substitute.
Freedom of choice does me fine in everyday life.

can you please explain the difference between free will and choice...?
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Annnaxim
Posts: 214
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9/24/2016 2:31:00 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/24/2016 1:13:44 PM, Smithereens wrote:
can you please explain the difference between free will and choice...?

Sure.
The great 19th century philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer explained it like this:
Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills.


For example:
Say you are at an ice-cream stand and the flavours of the day are vanilla and strawberry. You may want chocolate, but that's not available.

That's choice, so what is will?

Say you had never hear of passion fruit flavoured ice-cream. you couldn't even want that flavour.

See the difference between choice and will?
Annnaxim
Posts: 214
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9/24/2016 2:34:30 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/24/2016 1:14:11 PM, Smithereens wrote:
Wtf has Newtonian physics got to do with Free will...?

Hmm... I would've liked to ask that too, but felt as newbie it wasn't quite the right thing to say.
Dirty.Harry
Posts: 1,559
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9/24/2016 11:04:33 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/19/2016 5:45:36 PM, AlyceTheElectrician wrote:
At 9/17/2016 2:59:00 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
To me it doesn't seem to support free will because of Newton's laws of motion. I do however have a feeling we do have free will. Might just be an illusion...

You should read Sam Harris-- "Free will is an illusion. Our wills are simply not of our own making. Thoughts and intentions emerge from background causes of which we are unaware and over which we exert no conscious control."

the famous EEG experiments conducted by the physiologist Benjamin Libet and others in the early 1980s. They showed that the brain makes decisions before consciousness becomes aware of them. and activity in the brain"s motor cortex can be detected some 300 milliseconds, almost enough time for LeBron James to get off a shot ahead of the buzzer, before a person feels that he has decided to move.

This is true but does not prove that we don't have free will, we may have "willed" an outcome yet not become "aware" of our own decision immediately. Free will means a decision was made through a non deterministic process, it does not mean that we would necessarily be "aware" of the outcome before it transpired.


I'm not so convinced yet though, our brains are so complex and still have many secrets we have yet to discover within it.
Smithereens
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9/25/2016 3:38:07 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/24/2016 2:34:30 PM, Annnaxim wrote:
At 9/24/2016 1:14:11 PM, Smithereens wrote:
Wtf has Newtonian physics got to do with Free will...?

Hmm... I would've liked to ask that too, but felt as newbie it wasn't quite the right thing to say.

If you disagree with someone, go bash them up and don't feel ashamed. It's how discourse is most productively achieved.
Music composition contest: http://www.debate.org...
imperialchimp
Posts: 229
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9/25/2016 4:32:50 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/24/2016 1:14:11 PM, Smithereens wrote:
Wtf has Newtonian physics got to do with Free will...?

Everything is predetermined w/ laws of motion.
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-
Smithereens
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9/25/2016 4:43:07 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 4:32:50 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 9/24/2016 1:14:11 PM, Smithereens wrote:
Wtf has Newtonian physics got to do with Free will...?

Everything is predetermined w/ laws of motion.

No... nothing is predetermined with these laws. An object doesn't change motion without a net force acting on it, F=ma and every action has an equal opposite does not create predetermination...

You also realise that the laws of motion don't describe what happens on a quantum level yeah?

What exactly were you thinking when you made this claim?
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imperialchimp
Posts: 229
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9/25/2016 6:03:04 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 4:43:07 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/25/2016 4:32:50 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 9/24/2016 1:14:11 PM, Smithereens wrote:
Wtf has Newtonian physics got to do with Free will...?

Everything is predetermined w/ laws of motion.

No... nothing is predetermined with these laws. An object doesn't change motion without a net force acting on it, F=ma and every action has an equal opposite does not create predetermination...

Yes it does. If a ball was hit by another ball we know it will move. And depending on the amt of force, direction, friction, etc. you can predict where it will go.

You also realise that the laws of motion don't describe what happens on a quantum level yeah?

Yes. But quantum physics is pretty new and isn't as credible as Newton's laws of motion. Kind of hard to believe an electron can be at 2 places at once.

What exactly were you thinking when you made this claim?

Are you insulting me? Keep it professional...
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-
Annnaxim
Posts: 214
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9/25/2016 7:46:05 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/24/2016 11:04:33 PM, Dirty.Harry wrote:
This is true but does not prove that we don't have free will, we may have "willed" an outcome yet not become "aware" of our own decision immediately. Free will means a decision was made through a non deterministic process, it does not mean that we would necessarily be "aware" of the outcome before it transpired.


I'm not so convinced yet though, our brains are so complex and still have many secrets we have yet to discover within it.
I find both statements true.
Benjamin Libets Experiments simply prove that there are far more things going on in the brain, than just consciousness.
And yes, we still have a long way go in understanding how the brain functions.
Annnaxim
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9/25/2016 7:52:49 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 6:03:04 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 9/25/2016 4:43:07 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/25/2016 4:32:50 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 9/24/2016 1:14:11 PM, Smithereens wrote:
Wtf has Newtonian physics got to do with Free will...?

Everything is predetermined w/ laws of motion.

No... nothing is predetermined with these laws. An object doesn't change motion without a net force acting on it, F=ma and every action has an equal opposite does not create predetermination...

Yes it does. If a ball was hit by another ball we know it will move. And depending on the amt of force, direction, friction, etc. you can predict where it will go.

You also realise that the laws of motion don't describe what happens on a quantum level yeah?

Yes. But quantum physics is pretty new and isn't as credible as Newton's laws of motion. Kind of hard to believe an electron can be at 2 places at once.

What exactly were you thinking when you made this claim?

Are you insulting me? Keep it professional...
Fact is, not everything is governed by Newtons Laws. However, most things appear to be causal.
But consider the following (true) statement:
"Most highly intelligent women marry men that are less intelligent."
This has nothing to do with either Newton or causality.
Smithereens
Posts: 5,512
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9/25/2016 8:44:27 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 6:03:04 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 9/25/2016 4:43:07 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/25/2016 4:32:50 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 9/24/2016 1:14:11 PM, Smithereens wrote:
Wtf has Newtonian physics got to do with Free will...?

Everything is predetermined w/ laws of motion.

No... nothing is predetermined with these laws. An object doesn't change motion without a net force acting on it, F=ma and every action has an equal opposite does not create predetermination...

Yes it does. If a ball was hit by another ball we know it will move. And depending on the amt of force, direction, friction, etc. you can predict where it will go.

Indeed, but how did you get 'you can't make your own choices' from this information?

You also realise that the laws of motion don't describe what happens on a quantum level yeah?

Yes. But quantum physics is pretty new and isn't as credible as Newton's laws of motion. Kind of hard to believe an electron can be at 2 places at once.

No quantum physics is as scientifically valid as Classical physics. Superposition, which is what you refer to is a real phenomenon.

What exactly were you thinking when you made this claim?

Are you insulting me? Keep it professional...
I'm sorry, this wasn't supposed to come out as rude. I meant to ask 'what mental thought processes allowed you to arrive at this conclusion?'
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Annnaxim
Posts: 214
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9/25/2016 12:03:04 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 8:44:27 AM, Smithereens wrote:
No quantum physics is as scientifically valid as Classical physics.
Exactly!
It is now more than 100 years ago, that Max Planck defined "his" constant.
I wouldn't call that new. :)
imperialchimp
Posts: 229
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9/28/2016 3:10:55 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 8:44:27 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/25/2016 6:03:04 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 9/25/2016 4:43:07 AM, Smithereens wrote:
At 9/25/2016 4:32:50 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
At 9/24/2016 1:14:11 PM, Smithereens wrote:
Wtf has Newtonian physics got to do with Free will...?

Everything is predetermined w/ laws of motion.

No... nothing is predetermined with these laws. An object doesn't change motion without a net force acting on it, F=ma and every action has an equal opposite does not create predetermination...

Yes it does. If a ball was hit by another ball we know it will move. And depending on the amt of force, direction, friction, etc. you can predict where it will go.

Indeed, but how did you get 'you can't make your own choices' from this information?

if newtons laws are true, everything must be predetermined.

in addition, you're technically just a bunch of atoms "working together". There is no one mind that makes decisions.

You also realise that the laws of motion don't describe what happens on a quantum level yeah?

Yes. But quantum physics is pretty new and isn't as credible as Newton's laws of motion. Kind of hard to believe an electron can be at 2 places at once.

No quantum physics is as scientifically valid as Classical physics. Superposition, which is what you refer to is a real phenomenon.

did you say "No quantum physics is as scientifically valid as Classical physics" or "No, quantum physics is as scientifically valid as Classical physics"

how is superposition possible? it seems so illogical...

What exactly were you thinking when you made this claim?

Are you insulting me? Keep it professional...
I'm sorry, this wasn't supposed to come out as rude. I meant to ask 'what mental thought processes allowed you to arrive at this conclusion?'

i watched a video about it.

Technically i never made a decision of whether or not free will exists. It's a hard question for me. Science seems to go against free will but honestly, science isn't there to answer questions of truth...
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-
imperialchimp
Posts: 229
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9/28/2016 3:29:46 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
Fact is, not everything is governed by Newtons Laws. However, most things appear to be causal.

everything physical is. your thoughts are caused by electrical and chemical signals, which are caused by atoms and atoms are physical objects.

But consider the following (true) statement:
"Most highly intelligent women marry men that are less intelligent."
This has nothing to do with either Newton or causality.

can you really say that?
Ape Lives Matter (ALM)

What if I were to tell you that humans have false logic? Prepare for confusion.

-.-- --- ..- / ... .... --- ..- .-.. -.. / .... .- ...- . / -. --- - / - .-. .- -. ... .-.. .- - . -.. / - .... .. ... .-.-.- .-.-.- .-.-.-
Annnaxim
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9/28/2016 8:01:24 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 3:29:46 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
Fact is, not everything is governed by Newtons Laws. However, most things appear to be causal.

everything physical is. your thoughts are caused by electrical and chemical signals, which are caused by atoms and atoms are physical objects.

But consider the following (true) statement:
"Most highly intelligent women marry men that are less intelligent."
This has nothing to do with either Newton or causality.

can you really say that?
Of course.
There is a pool of available men that women of above average intelligence can marry. Therefore, most women MUST pick someone less inteligent than herself.
What reason, other than pure statistics, could there possibly be, that causes this to happen?
Can you give me a newtonian Formula or a causal reason?

It's a bit like the statement: "90% of drivers think they drive better than the average". This is obviously false. ;)
Silly_Billy
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9/28/2016 11:28:23 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/17/2016 2:59:00 AM, imperialchimp wrote:
To me it doesn't seem to support free will because of Newton's laws of motion. I do however have a feeling we do have free will. Might just be an illusion...

Newton's First Law states that an object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless acted upon by an external force. It may be seen as a statement about inertia, that objects will remain in their state of motion unless a force acts to change the motion.

We can suddenly change our motion when we choose to do so, therefor Newton's laws of motion does not apply where living things are concerend.
chui
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9/28/2016 12:32:13 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 3:10:55 AM, imperialchimp wrote:

how is superposition possible? it seems so illogical...

Superposition is, when all's said and done, just a word that we invented. What is not invented is the behaviour of particles at the small scale. They show definite levels of uncertainty in their properties. The most remarkable example of this is quantum tunnelling, where particles cross barriers that should be impossible by classical thinking.

We have very accurate mathematical descriptions of quantum behaviour. What we do not have is the right words to describe it. This is a failure of language and cannot be used to deny reality.
Annnaxim
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9/28/2016 2:25:10 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 11:28:23 AM, Silly_Billy wrote:

We can suddenly change our motion when we choose to do so, therefor Newton's laws of motion does not apply where living things are concerend.
Well not really.
Changing motion or direction is the result of muscles acting as controlled by our will.
This follows Newton's laws of motion.
Silly_Billy
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9/28/2016 2:37:32 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 2:25:10 PM, Annnaxim wrote:
At 9/28/2016 11:28:23 AM, Silly_Billy wrote:

We can suddenly change our motion when we choose to do so, therefor Newton's laws of motion does not apply where living things are concerend.
Well not really.
Changing motion or direction is the result of muscles acting as controlled by our will.
This follows Newton's laws of motion.

Not completely as Newton's First Law states that an object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless acted upon by an external force. In the case of a living organism however, it is an internal force that is acting, not an external.
Annnaxim
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9/28/2016 2:55:11 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 2:37:32 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/28/2016 2:25:10 PM, Annnaxim wrote:
Changing motion or direction is the result of muscles acting as controlled by our will.
This follows Newton's laws of motion.

Not completely as Newton's First Law states that an object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless acted upon by an external force. In the case of a living organism however, it is an internal force that is acting, not an external.

Surely, force ist force?
What difference does it make, if the force is internal or external?
Silly_Billy
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9/28/2016 3:00:00 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/28/2016 2:55:11 PM, Annnaxim wrote:
At 9/28/2016 2:37:32 PM, Silly_Billy wrote:
At 9/28/2016 2:25:10 PM, Annnaxim wrote:
Changing motion or direction is the result of muscles acting as controlled by our will.
This follows Newton's laws of motion.

Not completely as Newton's First Law states that an object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless acted upon by an external force. In the case of a living organism however, it is an internal force that is acting, not an external.

Surely, force ist force?
What difference does it make, if the force is internal or external?

if it didn't matter, Newton would not have made it a part of his law. And in regard to this topic, it makes a lot of difference and it is our free will that determines how, when, and where we move. Does science leave any room for free will? Apparently free will seems to think that it does.