Total Posts:14|Showing Posts:1-14
Jump to topic:

CO2 is going up but what about oxygen?

Quadrunner
Posts: 1,079
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2016 12:24:51 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
I've been wondering about this. Its just a curiosity more then anything. As CO2 levels are rising, are we seeing relative reductions in oxygen levels from combustion and whatnot?
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
dee-em
Posts: 6,456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2016 2:04:12 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 12:24:51 AM, Quadrunner wrote:
I've been wondering about this. Its just a curiosity more then anything. As CO2 levels are rising, are we seeing relative reductions in oxygen levels from combustion and whatnot?

The short answer is yes. You can't form CO2 without using free oxygen from the atmosphere. However, over 20% of air is oxygen whereas CO2 levels are much lower. The problem is that CO2 is a greenhouse gas and even small increases can have a significant effect. A correspondingly small decrease in oxygen is not that important.

O2 209,460 ppm (20.95 %)
CO2 400 ppm (0.04 %)

If CO2 increases to 500 ppm then O2 drops to 20.94%. Still plenty of oxygen around. The real problem is the heating effect of the extra CO2.
dee-em
Posts: 6,456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2016 2:16:13 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
Having said that, the decline in oxygen due to the reduction of plant life is a cause for concern:

https://www.theguardian.com...

In the 20th century, humanity has pumped increasing amounts of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere by burning the carbon stored in coal, petroleum and natural gas. In the process, we've also been consuming oxygen and destroying plant life " cutting down forests at an alarming rate and thereby short-circuiting the cycle's natural rebound. We're artificially slowing down one process and speeding up another, forcing a change in the atmosphere.
Quadrunner
Posts: 1,079
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2016 2:19:55 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 2:04:12 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:24:51 AM, Quadrunner wrote:
I've been wondering about this. Its just a curiosity more then anything. As CO2 levels are rising, are we seeing relative reductions in oxygen levels from combustion and whatnot?

The short answer is yes. You can't form CO2 without using free oxygen from the atmosphere. However, over 20% of air is oxygen whereas CO2 levels are much lower. The problem is that CO2 is a greenhouse gas and even small increases can have a significant effect. A correspondingly small decrease in oxygen is not that important.

O2 209,460 ppm (20.95 %)
CO2 400 ppm (0.04 %)

If CO2 increases to 500 ppm then O2 drops to 20.94%. Still plenty of oxygen around. The real problem is the heating effect of the extra CO2.

Not that I don't appreciate the reminder, but I'd like this thread to be focused specifically on the oxygen levels, and its relationship to CO2 levels in the world we live in. This thread should NOT even mention the word greenhouse, let alone discuss the subject of global warming. I want to keep things focused here on relationships, and explaining phenomenon in the levels themselves. Real world influences will of course come into play after the basics are established like "are oxygen levels rising" and "is there a direct relationship"

I have this intuitive curiosity on the subject because I think of things much like an old detective show. I intend to explore a lead here and see where it takes me.

Now, I'm wondering did you arrive at your conclusion implicitly based on accepted theories or through measurements in oxygen levels? In other words, are you sure your not assuming anything, because of the common sense statement in your opening sentence?
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,731
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2016 2:31:17 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 12:24:51 AM, Quadrunner wrote:
I've been wondering about this. Its just a curiosity more then anything. As CO2 levels are rising, are we seeing relative reductions in oxygen levels from combustion and whatnot?

That's an affirmative.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
dee-em
Posts: 6,456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2016 6:10:27 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 2:19:55 AM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 9/25/2016 2:04:12 AM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/25/2016 12:24:51 AM, Quadrunner wrote:
I've been wondering about this. Its just a curiosity more then anything. As CO2 levels are rising, are we seeing relative reductions in oxygen levels from combustion and whatnot?

The short answer is yes. You can't form CO2 without using free oxygen from the atmosphere. However, over 20% of air is oxygen whereas CO2 levels are much lower. The problem is that CO2 is a greenhouse gas and even small increases can have a significant effect. A correspondingly small decrease in oxygen is not that important.

O2 209,460 ppm (20.95 %)
CO2 400 ppm (0.04 %)

If CO2 increases to 500 ppm then O2 drops to 20.94%. Still plenty of oxygen around. The real problem is the heating effect of the extra CO2.

Not that I don't appreciate the reminder, but I'd like this thread to be focused specifically on the oxygen levels, and its relationship to CO2 levels in the world we live in. This thread should NOT even mention the word greenhouse, let alone discuss the subject of global warming. I want to keep things focused here on relationships, and explaining phenomenon in the levels themselves. Real world influences will of course come into play after the basics are established like "are oxygen levels rising" and "is there a direct relationship"

I have this intuitive curiosity on the subject because I think of things much like an old detective show. I intend to explore a lead here and see where it takes me.

Whatever. It's your thread.

Now, I'm wondering did you arrive at your conclusion implicitly based on accepted theories or through measurements in oxygen levels? In other words, are you sure your not assuming anything, because of the common sense statement in your opening sentence?

It's basic chemistry. When you burn carbon it combines with oxygen to produce carbon dioxide.

And yes, measurements show that oxygen levels are falling slowly (as per the link I provided in my second post).
Fkkize
Posts: 2,149
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2016 7:46:58 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 12:24:51 AM, Quadrunner wrote:
I've been wondering about this. Its just a curiosity more then anything. As CO2 levels are rising, are we seeing relative reductions in oxygen levels from combustion and whatnot?

Yes, it's basic chemistry.
: At 7/2/2016 3:05:07 PM, Rational_Thinker9119 wrote:
:
: space contradicts logic
keithprosser
Posts: 1,951
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2016 9:45:27 AM
Posted: 2 months ago
My back of an envelope calculation is that more o2 has left the atmosphere than appears as co2 in the atmosphere. It seems there may be too little plant biomass to maintain o2 levels, but as the excellent guardian article indicates o2 levels seems to have been relatively neglected by researchers until recently. Obviously there is a lot more to be known!
dee-em
Posts: 6,456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2016 4:49:30 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 9:45:27 AM, keithprosser wrote:

My back of an envelope calculation is that more o2 has left the atmosphere than appears as co2 in the atmosphere.

Which raises the interesting question: where is that oxygen going?

I could only think that it is being bound as water through cellular respiration in animals.

Glucose (C6H12O6) + Oxygen (6O2) = Carbon Dioxide (6CO2) + Water (6H2O) + Energy

However, in the above balanced equation, all of the free oxygen goes towards making carbon dioxide. The water comes from the glucose breakdown.

Does anyone know where the oxygen is going? Is it the ongoing process of oxidization in the Earth's crust? Or is it being absorbed into the oceans perhaps? The latter seems unlikely as I have heard that oxygen levels in the sea are also dropping gradually.

It seems there may be too little plant biomass to maintain o2 levels, but as the excellent guardian article indicates o2 levels seems to have been relatively neglected by researchers until recently. Obviously there is a lot more to be known!
Quadrunner
Posts: 1,079
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2016 5:13:53 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 4:49:30 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/25/2016 9:45:27 AM, keithprosser wrote:

My back of an envelope calculation is that more o2 has left the atmosphere than appears as co2 in the atmosphere.

Which raises the interesting question: where is that oxygen going?

I could only think that it is being bound as water through cellular respiration in animals.

Glucose (C6H12O6) + Oxygen (6O2) = Carbon Dioxide (6CO2) + Water (6H2O) + Energy

However, in the above balanced equation, all of the free oxygen goes towards making carbon dioxide. The water comes from the glucose breakdown.

Does anyone know where the oxygen is going? Is it the ongoing process of oxidization in the Earth's crust? Or is it being absorbed into the oceans perhaps? The latter seems unlikely as I have heard that oxygen levels in the sea are also dropping gradually.

It seems there may be too little plant biomass to maintain o2 levels, but as the excellent guardian article indicates o2 levels seems to have been relatively neglected by researchers until recently. Obviously there is a lot more to be known!

Dissolving into water was my first thought, but this interesting article seems to indicate otherwise.

http://www.climateemergencyinstitute.com...

There is a lot of interesting points in this article. The boldest which which may or may not be exaggerated in this article is, as keith suggested, that oxygen is depleting at a faster rate then CO2 production from fossil fuels would intuitively suggest.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
keithprosser
Posts: 1,951
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2016 5:19:49 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
I certainly don't insist my quick calculation is right, so I stand to be corrected on that! I was struck how low o2 levels could be in urban areas... As I have breathing difficulties and live in London I will take a personal interest in this subject!
dee-em
Posts: 6,456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2016 5:24:32 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 5:13:53 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 9/25/2016 4:49:30 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 9/25/2016 9:45:27 AM, keithprosser wrote:

My back of an envelope calculation is that more o2 has left the atmosphere than appears as co2 in the atmosphere.

Which raises the interesting question: where is that oxygen going?

I could only think that it is being bound as water through cellular respiration in animals.

Glucose (C6H12O6) + Oxygen (6O2) = Carbon Dioxide (6CO2) + Water (6H2O) + Energy

However, in the above balanced equation, all of the free oxygen goes towards making carbon dioxide. The water comes from the glucose breakdown.

Does anyone know where the oxygen is going? Is it the ongoing process of oxidization in the Earth's crust? Or is it being absorbed into the oceans perhaps? The latter seems unlikely as I have heard that oxygen levels in the sea are also dropping gradually.

It seems there may be too little plant biomass to maintain o2 levels, but as the excellent guardian article indicates o2 levels seems to have been relatively neglected by researchers until recently. Obviously there is a lot more to be known!

Dissolving into water was my first thought, but this interesting article seems to indicate otherwise.

http://www.climateemergencyinstitute.com...

There is a lot of interesting points in this article. The boldest which which may or may not be exaggerated in this article is, as keith suggested, that oxygen is depleting at a faster rate then CO2 production from fossil fuels would intuitively suggest.

Interesting, and worrying for the longterm health of the oceans.

My take is that the missing oxygen is going into the oceans after all, not as oxygen but as carbon dioxide. That would explain why the increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide does not match the decrease in atmospheric oxygen.
dee-em
Posts: 6,456
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/25/2016 5:28:07 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 9/25/2016 5:19:49 PM, keithprosser wrote:

I certainly don't insist my quick calculation is right, so I stand to be corrected on that!

The literature seems to support you.

I was struck how low o2 levels could be in urban areas... As I have breathing difficulties and live in London I will take a personal interest in this subject!

Imagine living in some of the big cities in China and India.