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How much can ecologists know about America?

R0b1Billion
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10/3/2016 10:10:40 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
10,000+ years ago, America was a different place. There were huge lions, bigger than what we see today in Africa. Mammoths, cheetahs, and all sorts of other fantastic creatures roamed the forests and plains. The ecosystem was natural and complete. American Indians hunted the most impressive animals to extinction, then european immigrants hunted the American Indians and just about everything else here to near-extinction. Today, we have very little left of what was once here. That which hasn't been hunted directly has suffered from the destabilization of the ecosystem and indirectly harmed. Most all water systems in our country are unhealthy, our forests are empty and dwindling, and pavement steadily increases its viral growth over the fertile ground.

I have respect for scientists, but how much can they actually know about the true healthy state of our ecosystem? This state hasn't existed in probably ten thousand years! Would any imaginable effort be enough for us to restore our country to a healthy state?
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
dee-em
Posts: 6,447
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10/3/2016 11:02:24 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/3/2016 10:10:40 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
10,000+ years ago, America was a different place. There were huge lions, bigger than what we see today in Africa. Mammoths, cheetahs, and all sorts of other fantastic creatures roamed the forests and plains. The ecosystem was natural and complete. American Indians hunted the most impressive animals to extinction, then european immigrants hunted the American Indians and just about everything else here to near-extinction. Today, we have very little left of what was once here. That which hasn't been hunted directly has suffered from the destabilization of the ecosystem and indirectly harmed. Most all water systems in our country are unhealthy, our forests are empty and dwindling, and pavement steadily increases its viral growth over the fertile ground.

I have respect for scientists, but how much can they actually know about the true healthy state of our ecosystem? This state hasn't existed in probably ten thousand years! Would any imaginable effort be enough for us to restore our country to a healthy state?

I hear wolves are making a comeback and the American bison already have a resurgence mainly in national parks. Does that help?
R0b1Billion
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10/4/2016 2:47:09 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/3/2016 11:02:24 PM, dee-em wrote:

I hear wolves are making a comeback and the American bison already have a resurgence mainly in national parks. Does that help?

Well it's better than nothing, but wolves are making a comeback not as primary consumers - an integral part of the ecosystem - but as pests to be eliminated by ranchers and farmers.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,463
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10/4/2016 3:31:58 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/3/2016 11:02:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/3/2016 10:10:40 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
10,000+ years ago, America was a different place. There were huge lions, bigger than what we see today in Africa. Mammoths, cheetahs, and all sorts of other fantastic creatures roamed the forests and plains. The ecosystem was natural and complete. American Indians hunted the most impressive animals to extinction, then european immigrants hunted the American Indians and just about everything else here to near-extinction. Today, we have very little left of what was once here. That which hasn't been hunted directly has suffered from the destabilization of the ecosystem and indirectly harmed. Most all water systems in our country are unhealthy, our forests are empty and dwindling, and pavement steadily increases its viral growth over the fertile ground.

I have respect for scientists, but how much can they actually know about the true healthy state of our ecosystem? This state hasn't existed in probably ten thousand years! Would any imaginable effort be enough for us to restore our country to a healthy state?

I hear wolves are making a comeback and the American bison already have a resurgence mainly in national parks. Does that help?

Now we have kudzu and stink bugs. It'll never be the same.
This space for rent.
kevin24018
Posts: 1,804
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10/4/2016 4:01:43 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/4/2016 3:31:58 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/3/2016 11:02:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/3/2016 10:10:40 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
10,000+ years ago, America was a different place. There were huge lions, bigger than what we see today in Africa. Mammoths, cheetahs, and all sorts of other fantastic creatures roamed the forests and plains. The ecosystem was natural and complete. American Indians hunted the most impressive animals to extinction, then european immigrants hunted the American Indians and just about everything else here to near-extinction. Today, we have very little left of what was once here. That which hasn't been hunted directly has suffered from the destabilization of the ecosystem and indirectly harmed. Most all water systems in our country are unhealthy, our forests are empty and dwindling, and pavement steadily increases its viral growth over the fertile ground.

I have respect for scientists, but how much can they actually know about the true healthy state of our ecosystem? This state hasn't existed in probably ten thousand years! Would any imaginable effort be enough for us to restore our country to a healthy state?

I hear wolves are making a comeback and the American bison already have a resurgence mainly in national parks. Does that help?

Now we have kudzu and stink bugs. It'll never be the same.

lots of invasive species from other countries for sure, yet little seems to be done or even much concern about those. https://en.wikipedia.org... seems like a good place to start is getting on handle on that sort of thing, though for many like the zebra muscle it's too late.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,463
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10/4/2016 4:51:33 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/4/2016 4:01:43 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 10/4/2016 3:31:58 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/3/2016 11:02:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/3/2016 10:10:40 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
10,000+ years ago, America was a different place. There were huge lions, bigger than what we see today in Africa. Mammoths, cheetahs, and all sorts of other fantastic creatures roamed the forests and plains. The ecosystem was natural and complete. American Indians hunted the most impressive animals to extinction, then european immigrants hunted the American Indians and just about everything else here to near-extinction. Today, we have very little left of what was once here. That which hasn't been hunted directly has suffered from the destabilization of the ecosystem and indirectly harmed. Most all water systems in our country are unhealthy, our forests are empty and dwindling, and pavement steadily increases its viral growth over the fertile ground.

I have respect for scientists, but how much can they actually know about the true healthy state of our ecosystem? This state hasn't existed in probably ten thousand years! Would any imaginable effort be enough for us to restore our country to a healthy state?

I hear wolves are making a comeback and the American bison already have a resurgence mainly in national parks. Does that help?

Now we have kudzu and stink bugs. It'll never be the same.

lots of invasive species from other countries for sure, yet little seems to be done or even much concern about those. https://en.wikipedia.org... seems like a good place to start is getting on handle on that sort of thing, though for many like the zebra muscle it's too late.

Evolution will take care of it. Evolution has been going on for almost 4 billion years, they tell us, so I'm sure it'll take care of the stink bugs. If the entire ecosystem could evolve from a single ancestor I'm sure it will eventually do totally awesome things with the stink bug. So, not to worry.
This space for rent.
kevin24018
Posts: 1,804
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10/4/2016 5:20:54 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/4/2016 4:51:33 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/4/2016 4:01:43 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
At 10/4/2016 3:31:58 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/3/2016 11:02:24 PM, dee-em wrote:
At 10/3/2016 10:10:40 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
10,000+ years ago, America was a different place. There were huge lions, bigger than what we see today in Africa. Mammoths, cheetahs, and all sorts of other fantastic creatures roamed the forests and plains. The ecosystem was natural and complete. American Indians hunted the most impressive animals to extinction, then european immigrants hunted the American Indians and just about everything else here to near-extinction. Today, we have very little left of what was once here. That which hasn't been hunted directly has suffered from the destabilization of the ecosystem and indirectly harmed. Most all water systems in our country are unhealthy, our forests are empty and dwindling, and pavement steadily increases its viral growth over the fertile ground.

I have respect for scientists, but how much can they actually know about the true healthy state of our ecosystem? This state hasn't existed in probably ten thousand years! Would any imaginable effort be enough for us to restore our country to a healthy state?

I hear wolves are making a comeback and the American bison already have a resurgence mainly in national parks. Does that help?

Now we have kudzu and stink bugs. It'll never be the same.

lots of invasive species from other countries for sure, yet little seems to be done or even much concern about those. https://en.wikipedia.org... seems like a good place to start is getting on handle on that sort of thing, though for many like the zebra muscle it's too late.

Evolution will take care of it. Evolution has been going on for almost 4 billion years, they tell us, so I'm sure it'll take care of the stink bugs. If the entire ecosystem could evolve from a single ancestor I'm sure it will eventually do totally awesome things with the stink bug. So, not to worry.

I blame global warming, I mean climate change
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,730
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10/4/2016 5:23:59 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/4/2016 4:51:33 PM, v3nesl wrote:

Evolution will take care of it. Evolution has been going on for almost 4 billion years, they tell us, so I'm sure it'll take care of the stink bugs. If the entire ecosystem could evolve from a single ancestor I'm sure it will eventually do totally awesome things with the stink bug. So, not to worry.

Evolution is too slow, by many orders of magnitude, to compete with anthropogenic negative externalities.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Annnaxim
Posts: 222
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10/4/2016 5:27:32 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/4/2016 5:20:54 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
I blame global warming, I mean climate change

One can blame global warming for lots of things, but not for the extinction of animals by the indians, nor of the indians by the setllers.
At that time there was no global warming. It only really started in the 1950's, a new aera we now call the Anthropocene.
kevin24018
Posts: 1,804
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10/4/2016 5:34:28 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/4/2016 5:27:32 PM, Annnaxim wrote:
At 10/4/2016 5:20:54 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
I blame global warming, I mean climate change

One can blame global warming for lots of things, but not for the extinction of animals by the indians, nor of the indians by the setllers.
At that time there was no global warming. It only really started in the 1950's, a new aera we now call the Anthropocene.

heheh it was kind of a joke, it's no longer called global warming, because they couldn't really prove it was getting warmer, so now it's more abstract, climate change since the definition is so loose and can be changed to fit the narrative.
v3nesl
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10/4/2016 5:55:26 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/4/2016 5:23:59 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 10/4/2016 4:51:33 PM, v3nesl wrote:

Evolution will take care of it. Evolution has been going on for almost 4 billion years, they tell us, so I'm sure it'll take care of the stink bugs. If the entire ecosystem could evolve from a single ancestor I'm sure it will eventually do totally awesome things with the stink bug. So, not to worry.

Evolution is too slow, by many orders of magnitude, to compete with anthropogenic negative externalities.

How is that possible? Aren't the humans the result of evolution? What happened that threw evolution off, if what you are saying is true?
This space for rent.
v3nesl
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10/4/2016 6:01:06 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/4/2016 5:20:54 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
...

Evolution will take care of it. Evolution has been going on for almost 4 billion years, they tell us, so I'm sure it'll take care of the stink bugs. If the entire ecosystem could evolve from a single ancestor I'm sure it will eventually do totally awesome things with the stink bug. So, not to worry.

I blame global warming, I mean climate change

Yeah, isn't it interesting how everybody knows at some level that humans are in fact something 'other'. We are made of the same stuff as the rest of the system, but somehow we're the wrench that got thrown in, and are disruptive. From whence were we thrown, you might ask...
This space for rent.
keithprosser
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10/4/2016 7:57:16 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
If the world settles down to a different - but stable - state then no doubt evolution will produce adaptations to suit the new conditions. But as it stands significant climate change may occur in just one or two generations, and there is no way for an adaptive change to arise and change the make-up of human gene pool in that time-scale.

Humans are going to be humans going into a period of raid and unprecedented change and will have to come out the other side without the aid of evolution.
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,730
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10/4/2016 9:22:45 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/4/2016 5:55:26 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/4/2016 5:23:59 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 10/4/2016 4:51:33 PM, v3nesl wrote:

Evolution will take care of it. Evolution has been going on for almost 4 billion years, they tell us, so I'm sure it'll take care of the stink bugs. If the entire ecosystem could evolve from a single ancestor I'm sure it will eventually do totally awesome things with the stink bug. So, not to worry.

Evolution is too slow, by many orders of magnitude, to compete with anthropogenic negative externalities.

How is that possible? Aren't the humans the result of evolution? What happened that threw evolution off, if what you are saying is true?

Artificiality happened. Humans may be products of Evolution, but they exist by their own rules now. They do not operate on instinct (evolutionary knowledge) but intellect. They also are no longer evolving.

Intelligence is the most wonderful thing in the universe, but everything within the human condition comes at a price. Pleasure at the cost of pain, life at the cost of death. The price for intelligence is bias, I.e., ego, I.e., selfishness, I.e., bias - call it what you'd like. If it weren't for this trade-off, we could just assert that humans are better than lower lifeforms and write off anything that isn't as sophisticated as we are. But nature is not simply a tool for us to use as we please, it is the life-blood that keeps us breathing. And we are damaging it. Most likely it will be us, not nature, that pays the ultimate price in the end.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
R0b1Billion
Posts: 3,730
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10/4/2016 11:17:57 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/4/2016 6:01:06 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/4/2016 5:20:54 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
...

Evolution will take care of it. Evolution has been going on for almost 4 billion years, they tell us, so I'm sure it'll take care of the stink bugs. If the entire ecosystem could evolve from a single ancestor I'm sure it will eventually do totally awesome things with the stink bug. So, not to worry.

I blame global warming, I mean climate change

Yeah, isn't it interesting how everybody knows at some level that humans are in fact something 'other'. We are made of the same stuff as the rest of the system, but somehow we're the wrench that got thrown in, and are disruptive. From whence were we thrown, you might ask...

We are something other. Compare a colony of ants to a human colony - ants are completely selfless. As intelligent creatures, we are incapable of selflessness. If Jesus was real, he would be the sole exception anybody could name.
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,463
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10/4/2016 11:19:47 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/4/2016 9:22:45 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 10/4/2016 5:55:26 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/4/2016 5:23:59 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 10/4/2016 4:51:33 PM, v3nesl wrote:

Evolution will take care of it. Evolution has been going on for almost 4 billion years, they tell us, so I'm sure it'll take care of the stink bugs. If the entire ecosystem could evolve from a single ancestor I'm sure it will eventually do totally awesome things with the stink bug. So, not to worry.

Evolution is too slow, by many orders of magnitude, to compete with anthropogenic negative externalities.

How is that possible? Aren't the humans the result of evolution? What happened that threw evolution off, if what you are saying is true?

Artificiality happened. Humans may be products of Evolution, but they exist by their own rules now.

I love it! "Artificiality happened" That's the best statement of "it was pure F'ing magic" that I've ever heard.

... They also are no longer evolving.


Well that's great. So now evolution isn't even an extrapolation of observed phenomena. I know, you'll say other species are evolving, but still, pretty durn amazing that the one species that we care about most, we arose by evolution but we're not evolving. Just trust us on that.

...Most likely it will be us, not nature, that pays the ultimate price in the end.

And to whom will we pay this price? Not to us, that would render the concept of paying a price rather silly. "man, that vacation was expensive. I had to pay myself $1000".
This space for rent.
v3nesl
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10/5/2016 12:58:07 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/4/2016 11:17:57 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 10/4/2016 6:01:06 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/4/2016 5:20:54 PM, kevin24018 wrote:
...

Evolution will take care of it. Evolution has been going on for almost 4 billion years, they tell us, so I'm sure it'll take care of the stink bugs. If the entire ecosystem could evolve from a single ancestor I'm sure it will eventually do totally awesome things with the stink bug. So, not to worry.

I blame global warming, I mean climate change

Yeah, isn't it interesting how everybody knows at some level that humans are in fact something 'other'. We are made of the same stuff as the rest of the system, but somehow we're the wrench that got thrown in, and are disruptive. From whence were we thrown, you might ask...

We are something other.

So we're agreed on that. I'm sensing, though, that you probably aren't to keen on thinking open mindedly about what that otherness might actually be.
This space for rent.
v3nesl
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10/5/2016 1:32:33 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/5/2016 12:58:07 PM, v3nesl wrote:


So we're agreed on that. I'm sensing, though, that you probably aren't to keen on thinking open mindedly about what that otherness might actually be.

And there really is no need for me to say such a thing, is there. My bad, sorry.
This space for rent.
Quadrunner
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10/5/2016 2:39:50 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/4/2016 2:47:09 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 10/3/2016 11:02:24 PM, dee-em wrote:

I hear wolves are making a comeback and the American bison already have a resurgence mainly in national parks. Does that help?

Well it's better than nothing, but wolves are making a comeback not as primary consumers - an integral part of the ecosystem - but as pests to be eliminated by ranchers and farmers.

Where I live, wolves are very important because our moose population has been displaced for decades by deer after the wolves were eradicated in otherwise low pressure hunting regions. Now that wolves have been reintroduced deer populations are coming back down to levels where Moose can compete, and are less likely to be inhibited by illnesses that deer are ecologically equipped to handle, but moose are not.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
kevin24018
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10/5/2016 2:46:28 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/5/2016 2:39:50 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 10/4/2016 2:47:09 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 10/3/2016 11:02:24 PM, dee-em wrote:

I hear wolves are making a comeback and the American bison already have a resurgence mainly in national parks. Does that help?

Well it's better than nothing, but wolves are making a comeback not as primary consumers - an integral part of the ecosystem - but as pests to be eliminated by ranchers and farmers.

Where I live, wolves are very important because our moose population has been displaced for decades by deer after the wolves were eradicated in otherwise low pressure hunting regions. Now that wolves have been reintroduced deer populations are coming back down to levels where Moose can compete, and are less likely to be inhibited by illnesses that deer are ecologically equipped to handle, but moose are not.

I am bullwinkle and I approve this message, though I have heard feral dogs are breeding with wild wolves, so wolves in their original genetic make up will eventually no longer exist except maybe in test tubes.
Annnaxim
Posts: 222
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10/5/2016 3:02:57 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/4/2016 5:34:28 PM, kevin24018 wrote:

heheh it was kind of a joke, it's no longer called global warming, because they couldn't really prove it was getting warmer, so now it's more abstract, climate change since the definition is so loose and can be changed to fit the narrative.

It's the same thing, really.

The problem: Many people confuse weather with climate. Weather is a short term indicator of whether one can wear short sleeves or whether one needs an umbrella on any given day.
Climate reflects the long term statistical change in overall weather conditions. Besides... it's no joke. Since 2015 we're right on the track of global warming again.
Annnaxim
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10/5/2016 3:06:57 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/5/2016 2:46:28 PM, kevin24018 wrote:

I am bullwinkle and I approve this message, though I have heard feral dogs are breeding with wild wolves, so wolves in their original genetic make up will eventually no longer exist except maybe in test tubes.

Did you expect anything else?
Dogs are nothing else than the descendants of a now extinct race of tamed wolves.
R0b1Billion
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10/5/2016 4:36:38 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/4/2016 11:19:47 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/4/2016 9:22:45 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 10/4/2016 5:55:26 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/4/2016 5:23:59 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 10/4/2016 4:51:33 PM, v3nesl wrote:

Evolution will take care of it. Evolution has been going on for almost 4 billion years, they tell us, so I'm sure it'll take care of the stink bugs. If the entire ecosystem could evolve from a single ancestor I'm sure it will eventually do totally awesome things with the stink bug. So, not to worry.

Evolution is too slow, by many orders of magnitude, to compete with anthropogenic negative externalities.

How is that possible? Aren't the humans the result of evolution? What happened that threw evolution off, if what you are saying is true?

Artificiality happened. Humans may be products of Evolution, but they exist by their own rules now.

I love it! "Artificiality happened" That's the best statement of "it was pure F'ing magic" that I've ever heard.

Once that which is natural is replaced with that which is artificial, we lose the benefits that come from nature. If you are still confused, perhaps you could read up on the philosophy of some naturalists. Aldo Leopold is a popular one...

... They also are no longer evolving.


Well that's great. So now evolution isn't even an extrapolation of observed phenomena. I know, you'll say other species are evolving, but still, pretty durn amazing that the one species that we care about most, we arose by evolution but we're not evolving. Just trust us on that.

Let's take this back to genetics 101 for a moment so you can keep up. Evolution is a process by which random genetic mutations cause changes in populations of organisms, allowing them to adapt better than others. Obviously, humans no longer are proliferating by this "survival of the fittest" process; we simply spread and spread no matter what our genetic profile. Even retarded, diseased, crippled, etc. individuals are kept part of our gene pool. If you would like to show how evolution can continue to shape our populations then be my guest please!

...Most likely it will be us, not nature, that pays the ultimate price in the end.

And to whom will we pay this price? Not to us, that would render the concept of paying a price rather silly. "man, that vacation was expensive. I had to pay myself $1000".

Ah, silly semantic arguments. It's a shame DDO is bogged down by these :(

Pay the price = suffer, die
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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10/5/2016 4:52:47 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/5/2016 4:36:38 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 10/4/2016 11:19:47 PM, v3nesl wrote:

Well that's great. So now evolution isn't even an extrapolation of observed phenomena. I know, you'll say other species are evolving, but still, pretty durn amazing that the one species that we care about most, we arose by evolution but we're not evolving. Just trust us on that.

Let's take this back to genetics 101 for a moment so you can keep up. Evolution is a process by which random genetic mutations cause changes in populations of organisms, allowing them to adapt better than others. Obviously, humans no longer are proliferating by this "survival of the fittest" process; we simply spread and spread no matter what our genetic profile. Even retarded, diseased, crippled, etc. individuals are kept part of our gene pool. If you would like to show how evolution can continue to shape our populations then be my guest please!

Well, children are genetically distinct from their parents.
Quadrunner
Posts: 1,074
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10/5/2016 4:55:31 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
Forests are making a comeback as well. Mature forest is becoming more common, and its, in the big American picture expanding towards its former glory. Growing up, I was fortunate to have access to old growth forest, literally in my backyard, and we had land in the succession stages that is now maturing. Wildlife that has never roamed these lands in my life is appearing, and invasive species....for the mean time....are being held at bay. I'm proud to say that in the north country, great things are happening.

I believe things like Zebra Muscle are the main threat to our ecological recovery. Most of the damage has already been done. Whatever critters that are still hangin in there will no doubt rebound given the chance, but fundamental changes to the ecological system need to be minimized in order to give them the best chance possible. Those zebra muscles get so thick in some lakes I sometimes wonder if we should be harvesting them or something.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
v3nesl
Posts: 4,463
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10/5/2016 5:11:39 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/5/2016 4:36:38 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 10/4/2016 11:19:47 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/4/2016 9:22:45 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 10/4/2016 5:55:26 PM, v3nesl wrote:
At 10/4/2016 5:23:59 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 10/4/2016 4:51:33 PM, v3nesl wrote:

Evolution will take care of it. Evolution has been going on for almost 4 billion years, they tell us, so I'm sure it'll take care of the stink bugs. If the entire ecosystem could evolve from a single ancestor I'm sure it will eventually do totally awesome things with the stink bug. So, not to worry.

Evolution is too slow, by many orders of magnitude, to compete with anthropogenic negative externalities.

How is that possible? Aren't the humans the result of evolution? What happened that threw evolution off, if what you are saying is true?

Artificiality happened. Humans may be products of Evolution, but they exist by their own rules now.

I love it! "Artificiality happened" That's the best statement of "it was pure F'ing magic" that I've ever heard.

Once that which is natural is replaced with that which is artificial, we lose the benefits that come from nature. If you are still confused,

I'm just curious how you think artificial comes from natural. Do you think man arose by natural causes? And if so, how did he become un-natural?


Let's take this back to genetics 101 for a moment so you can keep up. Evolution is a process by which random genetic mutations cause changes in populations of organisms, allowing them to adapt better than others. Obviously, humans no longer are proliferating by this "survival of the fittest" process;

Obviously? We still have mutations, and I'm not clear on how you think natural selection would be excluded for humans.

... Even retarded, diseased, crippled, etc. individuals are kept part of our gene pool.

So? Is this behavior not natural? Is human selection not natural? You're not even hinting a what you think this un-natural aspect of humanity IS, or where it came from.

If you would like to show how evolution can continue to shape our populations then be my guest please!


I wouldn't be the one to show how evolution ever did much of anything. I'm just curious that you don't seem to see any hint of a paradox in what you say.

...Most likely it will be us, not nature, that pays the ultimate price in the end.

And to whom will we pay this price? Not to us, that would render the concept of paying a price rather silly. "man, that vacation was expensive. I had to pay myself $1000".

Ah, silly semantic arguments. It's a shame DDO is bogged down by these :(


Bogged down by someone who challenges you to actually think about what you say? okey dokey. Feel free to just ignore me if that's not your style.
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R0b1Billion
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10/5/2016 6:56:11 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/5/2016 4:52:47 PM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 10/5/2016 4:36:38 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 10/4/2016 11:19:47 PM, v3nesl wrote:

Well that's great. So now evolution isn't even an extrapolation of observed phenomena. I know, you'll say other species are evolving, but still, pretty durn amazing that the one species that we care about most, we arose by evolution but we're not evolving. Just trust us on that.

Let's take this back to genetics 101 for a moment so you can keep up. Evolution is a process by which random genetic mutations cause changes in populations of organisms, allowing them to adapt better than others. Obviously, humans no longer are proliferating by this "survival of the fittest" process; we simply spread and spread no matter what our genetic profile. Even retarded, diseased, crippled, etc. individuals are kept part of our gene pool. If you would like to show how evolution can continue to shape our populations then be my guest please!

Well, children are genetically distinct from their parents.

That's not necessarily evolution. Evolution involves mutations, not simply a new mix of pre-existing genes from the parents. Monkeys didn't turn into humans by mixing genes from parents.

Also, even if what you said was true, there needs to be a procreative reward for those evolved. If anything, our current system is the opposite of that, because more intelligent people tend to procreate at a slower rate than the lesser. How many kids do you have Cody?
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
R0b1Billion
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10/5/2016 6:57:19 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/5/2016 4:55:31 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Forests are making a comeback as well. Mature forest is becoming more common, and its, in the big American picture expanding towards its former glory. Growing up, I was fortunate to have access to old growth forest, literally in my backyard, and we had land in the succession stages that is now maturing. Wildlife that has never roamed these lands in my life is appearing, and invasive species....for the mean time....are being held at bay. I'm proud to say that in the north country, great things are happening.

I believe things like Zebra Muscle are the main threat to our ecological recovery. Most of the damage has already been done. Whatever critters that are still hangin in there will no doubt rebound given the chance, but fundamental changes to the ecological system need to be minimized in order to give them the best chance possible. Those zebra muscles get so thick in some lakes I sometimes wonder if we should be harvesting them or something.

What mythical land do you hail from? Chernobyl?
Beliefs in a nutshell:
- The Ends never justify the Means.
- Objectivity is secondary to subjectivity.
- The War on Drugs is the worst policy in the U.S.
- Most people worship technology as a religion.
- Computers will never become sentient.
Quadrunner
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10/5/2016 6:59:36 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/5/2016 6:57:19 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 10/5/2016 4:55:31 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Forests are making a comeback as well. Mature forest is becoming more common, and its, in the big American picture expanding towards its former glory. Growing up, I was fortunate to have access to old growth forest, literally in my backyard, and we had land in the succession stages that is now maturing. Wildlife that has never roamed these lands in my life is appearing, and invasive species....for the mean time....are being held at bay. I'm proud to say that in the north country, great things are happening.

I believe things like Zebra Muscle are the main threat to our ecological recovery. Most of the damage has already been done. Whatever critters that are still hangin in there will no doubt rebound given the chance, but fundamental changes to the ecological system need to be minimized in order to give them the best chance possible. Those zebra muscles get so thick in some lakes I sometimes wonder if we should be harvesting them or something.

What mythical land do you hail from? Chernobyl?

It's spelled Flint you dolt.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Quadrunner
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10/5/2016 7:09:24 PM
Posted: 2 months ago
At 10/5/2016 6:59:36 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 10/5/2016 6:57:19 PM, R0b1Billion wrote:
At 10/5/2016 4:55:31 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
Forests are making a comeback as well. Mature forest is becoming more common, and its, in the big American picture expanding towards its former glory. Growing up, I was fortunate to have access to old growth forest, literally in my backyard, and we had land in the succession stages that is now maturing. Wildlife that has never roamed these lands in my life is appearing, and invasive species....for the mean time....are being held at bay. I'm proud to say that in the north country, great things are happening.

I believe things like Zebra Muscle are the main threat to our ecological recovery. Most of the damage has already been done. Whatever critters that are still hangin in there will no doubt rebound given the chance, but fundamental changes to the ecological system need to be minimized in order to give them the best chance possible. Those zebra muscles get so thick in some lakes I sometimes wonder if we should be harvesting them or something.

What mythical land do you hail from? Chernobyl?

It's spelled Flint you dolt.

Seriously though, we have MASSIVE issues now, but pretty much every species has its own refuges these days, and yes, forests are growing faster then we are harvesting them. Its really an exciting time to be an ecologist due to all of the proactive approaches already in practice. In Minnesota, we have coop programs between the state and the farmers to graze on state land occasionally under DNR management. It eases pressure on the pasture, makes a little money for the state, and keeps the prairies alive. How cool is that?

Fishery management is top notch except in Indian Nation. Hunting is well controlled. There are volunteers at practically every common boat launch on half the weekends nowadays. You see bad stuff on the news, but in reality, its the same stuff that's always been happening, and now people care enough to do something about it. Things are improving, overall.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.